Philosophic question about diamond advertising

[Serg]

re:Serg..., virtual facets sizes (and I think the number of them) can be played with while changing facet angles and sizes plus depth...

Diagem,

Yes, Of course. For Fancy cut even minor change in angles could significantly change pattern .
For round cut, we have not big place for such game. Labs limitation is very strong. If you try change something they sure what your goal is yield and they have rights to penalty your work.
Do you remember GIA article about Painting? Authors were sure what main goal of painting is yield . They fixed diameter and show increasing mass during painting!
They forgot consider rough shape, they have not mind what if you do painting you usually should degrease diameter.

It is reason what I am not thinking more about changing parameters for round cut, they blocked it

 

[diagem]

Date: 2/17/2008 9:39:20 AM
Author: Serg

re:Serg..., virtual facets sizes (and I think the number of them) can be played with while changing facet angles and sizes plus depth...

Diagem,

Yes, Of course. For Fancy cut even minor change in angles could significantly change pattern .

For round cut, we have not big place for such game. Labs limitation is very strong. If you try change something they sure what your goal is yield and they have rights to penalty your work.
Do you remember GIA article about Painting? Authors were sure what main goal of painting is yield . They fixed diameter and show increasing mass during painting!
They forgot consider rough shape, they have not mind what if you do painting you usually should degrease diameter.

It is reason what I am not thinking more about changing parameters for round cut, they blocked it

Exactly..., thats why I said before..., CATCH 22!!!

Instead of letting us experiment to bring out the best appearance as far as virtual facets..., they (especially with AGS system) limit future potential possibilities to change for the better!!!

GIA can still be more flexible on their top grade EXcellent
AGS has a problem with their "0"...

 

[strmrdr]

Garry, Serg, have you seen this thread:
https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/what-do-you-like-the-least-about-the-diamond-industry.78950/
As a consumer I can tell you that the consumer level human element is what destroys the most confidence in the industry with consumers.

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 2/17/2008 9:39:20 AM
Author: Serg

re:Serg..., virtual facets sizes (and I think the number of them) can be played with while changing facet angles and sizes plus depth...

Diagem,

Yes, Of course. For Fancy cut even minor change in angles could significantly change pattern .

For round cut, we have not big place for such game. Labs limitation is very strong. If you try change something they sure what your goal is yield and they have rights to penalty your work.
Do you remember GIA article about Painting? Authors were sure what main goal of painting is yield . They fixed diameter and show increasing mass during painting!
They forgot consider rough shape, they have not mind what if you do painting you usually should degrease diameter.

It is reason what I am not thinking more about changing parameters for round cut, they blocked it

With rounds it more or less ended up what was already being done as the best being verified as the best.
Rounds are easy every facet is locked into place and they are all about highest light return with a nod towards fire and scint.
The scary part is if AGS is applying a 15 degree tilt measurement too scint for fancies they are engaging in RB think and you cant do that with fancies.
Some of the most awesome scint in the diamond world comes with se/asschers between 15 and 25 degrees of tilt.
I have verified this with my research and with my eyes and numerous consumers have agreed and at least one PS industry expert has too when viewing stones live.

 

[oldminer]

The use of superlatives in describing diamonds or any other manufactured object is a dangerous course to follow. Like others have already said here, the use of absolute terms will potentially limit the creativity of what goes into cutting beautiful diamonds. I have always couched the use of ideal within the terminology of "ideal range" or "ideal type" with the inherent implication that ideal exists in our minds and not as a physical limit of reality. During the development of ImaGem we spoke at great lengths how to term diamonds which performed near the top of the measuring scales. We chose a range and not a single set of values. Many really lovely diamonds are not the one which just come close to topping the scales although there is a relationship to appearance. It is not an exact, 1:1, relationship since so many factors create visual attractiveness.

Also, the scales of brilliance, sparkle and intensity are actually designed to never be topped out by a diamond. This is highly important in the creation of a performance scale. Such a careful stragegy allows for presently unforseen future creation of increased performance by further progress in the cutting field. The lighting and measures used will not be overwhelmed by better light return if some cutter can make it happen.

Advertising of diamonds is not much different than other advertising we are inundated with. At the extremes we just give up ignoring most claims, paying little attention to them or doing our own research to find what suits our own needs. Branding is much the same. At some point, the number of truly valid brands will be rather small and the rest will be just names with no special meaning. Not every product can be a superlative one, just as not all children in the home town of the "Prairie Home Companion" can all be above average.

 

[Serg]

Date: 2/17/2008 11:22:50 AM
Author: strmrdr
Garry, Serg, have you seen this thread:
https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/what-do-you-like-the-least-about-the-diamond-industry.78950/
As a consumer I can tell you that the consumer level human element is what destroys the most confidence in the industry with consumers.

Yes, I voted .

For my opinion Problems with "Sales People" base on " Lack of consistent information/Lack of training" what again base on myth "Each Diamond is Beautiful because it is just Diamond "* ( There are more famous interpretation "Diamonds are a girl’s best friends " )

Main marketing idea in diamond industry is “made diamond a ‘need’ ”. If consumer “needs” diamond to “proof his …” and diamond is “Ideal” Do you need invest to training Sales People?

Good Sales Person can not successfully sell “Ideal object what you need”.
Good Sales Person can successfully sell what you WISH.( I believe what most of you could be disagree with me here. I am disagree to. I just try show possible reason why diamond industry does not need good Sales People. I do not consider here shops like Graff )


* I heard it in Basel on GIA presentation new cut grading system from somebody from Zale( may he was even owner of Zale)
Best Regards, Sergey Sivovolenko

 

[Isabelle]

Date: 2/16/2008 12:27:07 AM
Author:Garry H (Cut Nut)
When companies create new patented cuts branding statements like “the most IDEAL / BRILLIANT / FIREY diamond ever” rely on absolute claims that belittle earlier and competing brands statements.


False use of absolute claims has diminished the confidence of retailers, salespersons and consumers.

Does that make sense?

I would like to know what everyone thinks, diamond lovers, shoppers, experts, consumers, appraisers, retailers and e-tailers and you too (the one I left out

) (actually there are 2 of you)

I think that consumers hear such claims and understand there is some puffery that comes with them. But then there are new cuts that truly are revolutionary and it is arguably right for the owner of the patent (particularly when there is a utility patent involved) to advertise it. Lucida by Tiffany is a stone that just looks remarkable on the hand. I prefer Legacy myself, but the work involved to create Lucida is a real tribute to the inventor. I think in this case a company like Tiffany is right to advertise it as a revolution. It really was one, and sort of as a testament to its importance, there are a lot of people who still even today really ''don''t get'' the Lucida diamond. But I think that is more a function of how it changed things than it not being exquisite. When you see it on the hand, especially, it is breathtaking. So if they said "Revolutionary" in 1999, I think they would be right. They''d probably be right to say that in 2008, come to that. --That is just the opinion of a trademark lawyer, not a patent lawyer. But I know enough about patent law to know that Lucida is special. Legacy is special. That''s just my opinion. I LOVE this forum by the way.

 

[Serg]

Date: 2/17/2008 12:46:18 PM
Author: Serg

Date: 2/17/2008 11:22:50 AM
Author: strmrdr
Garry, Serg, have you seen this thread:
https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/what-do-you-like-the-least-about-the-diamond-industry.78950/
As a consumer I can tell you that the consumer level human element is what destroys the most confidence in the industry with consumers.

Yes, I voted .

For my opinion Problems with ''Sales People'' base on '' Lack of consistent information/Lack of training'' what again base on myth ''Each Diamond is Beautiful because it is just Diamond ''* ( There are more famous interpretation ''Diamonds are a girl’s best friends '' )

Main marketing idea in diamond industry is “made diamond a ‘need’ ”. If consumer “needs” diamond to “proof his …” and diamond is “Ideal” Do you need invest to training Sales People?

Good Sales Person can not successfully sell “Ideal object what you need”.
Good Sales Person can successfully sell what you WISH.( I believe what most of you could be disagree with me here. I am disagree to. I just try show possible reason why diamond industry does not need good Sales People. I do not consider here shops like Graff )



* I heard it in Basel on GIA presentation new cut grading system from somebody from Zale( may he was even owner of Zale)

Best Regards, Sergey Sivovolenko

Good Sale People could come only if Marketing will shift focus to describe real ability diamonds .
If Car is Ideal , you do not need good Sale People.
Only if you need compare and show real difference between two BRANDs( like Toyota and Honda) , you need good Sale people

 

[diagem]

Date: 2/17/2008 2:27:46 PM
Author: Serg

Date: 2/17/2008 12:46:18 PM
Author: Serg

Date: 2/17/2008 11:22:50 AM
Author: strmrdr
Garry, Serg, have you seen this thread:
https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/what-do-you-like-the-least-about-the-diamond-industry.78950/
As a consumer I can tell you that the consumer level human element is what destroys the most confidence in the industry with consumers.

Yes, I voted .

For my opinion Problems with ''Sales People'' base on '' Lack of consistent information/Lack of training'' what again base on myth ''Each Diamond is Beautiful because it is just Diamond ''* ( There are more famous interpretation ''Diamonds are a girl’s best friends '' )

Main marketing idea in diamond industry is “made diamond a ‘need’ ”. If consumer “needs” diamond to “proof his …” and diamond is “Ideal” Do you need invest to training Sales People?

Good Sales Person can not successfully sell “Ideal object what you need”.
Good Sales Person can successfully sell what you WISH.( I believe what most of you could be disagree with me here. I am disagree to. I just try show possible reason why diamond industry does not need good Sales People. I do not consider here shops like Graff )




* I heard it in Basel on GIA presentation new cut grading system from somebody from Zale( may he was even owner of Zale)


Best Regards, Sergey Sivovolenko

Good Sale People could come only if Marketing will shift focus to describe real ability diamonds .
If Car (Diamond) is Ideal , you do not need good Sale People.
Only if you need compare and show real difference between two BRANDs( like Toyota and Honda) , you need good Sale people

Serg..., did you forget the hours you and Co. spend on which car (or Diamond) is sweet-spot of Ideal???

 

[Serg]

re:Serg..., did you forget the hours you and Co. spend on which car (or Diamond) is sweet-spot of Ideal???

Diagem,
Please remind me it. I do not remember or I did not understand you.
I fight with "Ideal concept" at least last 4 years

for example see our poster from IDCC1(2004 year)

http://www.gemology.ru/cut/english/conference_posters/7.htm

"Conclusion:
All the systems considered above have one thing in common: they don''t use the attribute "ideal".
An obvious drawback of the "ideality" concept is that all the "non-ideal" items are penalized, while most people understand that the ideal does not exist.
If there is a concept of "ideality" on the market, this conflicts with the concepts of "difference" and "specialty", because all the different and special is non-ideal. So, a negative attitude is cultivated towards differences and specialties.
If there is no "ideality" concept, any differences and specialties can be positioned as positive. This point contains a potential for growth and development of the corresponding goods and markets, while the existing "ideality" concept restrains the diamond market. "

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 2/17/2008 2:53:00 PM
Author: DiaGem

Serg..., did you forget the hours you and Co. spend on which car (or Diamond) is sweet-spot of Ideal???

There is a lot of back history going on here...
To make it very clear in a way you will get right away....The "Ideal" cut princess in particular said the equivalent of..
"A very narrow range of drop asschers is the best and all the rest suck"
Real world eyeball studies have found AGS5 princess cuts that consumers and experts liked better than some AGS0 cuts for the same reason someone might prefer the widestep below.

With rounds and the very narrow range of options available that work, for the most part that didn't happen as badly. But it did in some cases and Serg don't like it.
If you look deeper into Serg's company what they are about is helping cutters cut better diamonds while maintaining yield. The ideal concept gets in the way at times.

 

[diagem]

Date: 2/17/2008 3:09:43 PM
Author: Serg

re:Serg..., did you forget the hours you and Co. spend on which car (or Diamond) is sweet-spot of Ideal???

Diagem,
Please remind me it. I do not remember or I did not understand you.
I fight with ''Ideal concept'' at least last 4 years

for example see our poster from IDCC1(2004 year)

http://www.gemology.ru/cut/english/conference_posters/7.htm

''Conclusion:

All the systems considered above have one thing in common: they don''t use the attribute ''ideal''.
An obvious drawback of the ''ideality'' concept is that all the ''non-ideal'' items are penalized, while most people understand that the ideal does not exist.
If there is a concept of ''ideality'' on the market, this conflicts with the concepts of ''difference'' and ''specialty'', because all the different and special is non-ideal. So, a negative attitude is cultivated towards differences and specialties.
If there is no ''ideality'' concept, any differences and specialties can be positioned as positive. This point contains a potential for growth and development of the corresponding goods and markets, while the existing ''ideality'' concept restrains the diamond market. ''

Serg..., I am sorry if you didnt understand me..., I simply implied of the discussions on this issue (many a times...).
See only one example: https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/41-degree-pavillion-angle.65301/page-6

I did not mean to say you where specifically for or against..., just pointing out the fact that "ideal" had plenty of possibilities/options during the discussions...

Conclusion: Ideal is problematic!!! In all cases...

 

[Serg]

Date: 2/17/2008 3:39:48 PM
Author: DiaGem

Date: 2/17/2008 3:09:43 PM
Author: Serg


re:Serg..., did you forget the hours you and Co. spend on which car (or Diamond) is sweet-spot of Ideal???

Diagem,
Please remind me it. I do not remember or I did not understand you.
I fight with ''Ideal concept'' at least last 4 years

for example see our poster from IDCC1(2004 year)

http://www.gemology.ru/cut/english/conference_posters/7.htm

''Conclusion:


All the systems considered above have one thing in common: they don''t use the attribute ''ideal''.
An obvious drawback of the ''ideality'' concept is that all the ''non-ideal'' items are penalized, while most people understand that the ideal does not exist.
If there is a concept of ''ideality'' on the market, this conflicts with the concepts of ''difference'' and ''specialty'', because all the different and special is non-ideal. So, a negative attitude is cultivated towards differences and specialties.
If there is no ''ideality'' concept, any differences and specialties can be positioned as positive. This point contains a potential for growth and development of the corresponding goods and markets, while the existing ''ideality'' concept restrains the diamond market. ''

Serg..., I am sorry if you didnt understand me..., I simply implied of the discussions on this issue (many a times...).
See only one example: https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/41-degree-pavillion-angle.65301/page-6

I did not mean to say you where specifically for or against..., just pointing out the fact that ''ideal'' had plenty of possibilities/options during the discussions...

Conclusion: Ideal is problematic!!! In all cases...

re:See only one example: https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/41-degree-pavillion-angle.65301/page-6
It was discussion :
How proportions could change color.
We spend a lot of efforts to understand How could be sensitive consumer ( expert) observation
See for example or MSS . http://www.octonus.com/oct/mss/

It is not question what we want find ideal cut or even improve cut. in first step our study We just want understand what difference consumer could see.
Second step what does he like.
Of course we spend a lot of time to improve cut( even round cut. I think it is possible if we will find better balance between Fire and Brilliancy .BTW A soon we will publish our suggestion for Fire MSS. I hope I can proof to Strmrdr and AGS what round could be better. It is FUN for me do it)
But such our work has not any connection with Ideal concept. I do not even try find Ideal round
Moreover we spend our main recourses now to develop tools for Design and cost effective production fancy cuts (more beauty than round) with high accuracy.
For produce better than round fancy cuts New cutting tools are very important. Current tools can not give enough accuracy.
If we can do it, it will big challenge for Labs
To produce real nice cut and receive profit now is necessary a lot of High technology.
you can not use "child labor" to produce even H&A

Diamond marketing does not use what diamond is real Innovative product. I think it is mistake

For example I do not like "Ideal 3d symmetry concept", but I appreciate level of skills cutters how can do "True" H&A
Do not try proof what H&A , try show how is difficult to produce it, show what such work is real ART.

 

[diagem]

Date: 2/17/2008 4:10:20 PM
Author: Serg



re:See only one example: https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/41-degree-pavillion-angle.65301/page-6

It was discussion :
How proportions could change color.

We spend a lot of efforts to understand How could be sensitive consumer ( expert) observation
See for example or MSS . http://www.octonus.com/oct/mss/
Nice work..., and I salute your effort spent...


It is not question what we want find ideal cut or even improve cut. in first step our study We just want understand what difference consumer could see.
Second step what does he like.
Can we even find out objectively when the consumer wants??? Aren''t we (not just us..., but the media et al) the blame for the consumers appetite in Diamond knowledge???


Of course we spend a lot of time to improve cut( even round cut. I think it is possible if we will find better balance between Fire and Brilliancy .BTW A soon we will publish our suggestion for Fire MSS. I hope I can proof to Strmrdr and AGS what round could be better. It is FUN for me do it)
But such our work has not any connection with Ideal concept. I do not even try find Ideal round
Moreover we spend our main recourses now to develop tools for Design and cost effective production fancy cuts (more beauty than round) with high accuracy.
For produce better than round fancy cuts New cutting tools are very important. Current tools can not give enough accuracy.
If we can do it, it will big challenge for Labs
As far as rounds..., thats easy..., just shorten the lgf''s while combining the correct table to show the flower effect...

As far as tooling''s..., I am with you 100% on that..., cutters are still being totally primitive when it comes to using high tech tools..., I am busy a lot of time out of my day trying to explain and teach my cutters to give up the tools they were used and move up to our proprietors type tools!!!
Hell..., some of my cutters are still used to the Moe gage and use copper held dops...

Go explain to them that they cant cut Diamonds to an accuracy of 0.02mm. range with the old tools...


To produce real nice cut and receive profit now is necessary a lot of High technology.
you can not use ''child labor'' to produce even H&A

Diamond marketing does not use what diamond is real Innovative product. I think it is mistake
Diamond marketing is as primitive as its cutting techniques..., it needs a revolution!


For example I do not like ''Ideal 3d symmetry concept'', but I appreciate level of skills cutters how can do ''True'' H&A
Do not try proof what H&A , try show how is difficult to produce it, show what such work is real ART.
I appreciate cutters that do incredible work with step-cut or mixed-cut techniques..., much more than H&A...
Dont get me wrong..., I am not looking down at H&A''s..., but the challenges on other arrangements on out-of-the-ordinary-shapes can be much more complicated...

 

[Serg]

re:appreciate cutters that do incredible work with step-cut or mixed-cut techniques..., much more than H&A...

So am I. It is reason why I wrote:

"you can not use ''child labor'' to produce even H&A"


good Step-cut( control angles and HEIGHT each step and do not lost Yeild) is more hard task

 

[diagem]

Date: 2/17/2008 5:14:48 PM
Author: Serg
re:appreciate cutters that do incredible work with step-cut or mixed-cut techniques..., much more than H&A...

So am I. It is reason why I wrote:

''you can not use ''child labor'' to produce even H&A''


good Step-cut( control angles and HEIGHT each step and do not lost Yeild) is more hard task

Just a taste:

The Shopping Step-Cut experience....

 

[Kath1609]

Date: 2/16/2008 12:27:07 AM
Author:Garry H (Cut Nut)
False use of absolute claims has diminished the confidence of retailers, salespersons and consumers.

I can''t speak about the confidences of retailers or salespeople, but as a consumer, I believe that false claims of ''ideal'' and ''perfection'' have reduced my confidence in the diamond industry.

I am not very knowledgeable about diamonds. Having lurked on here for a couple of months, I have increased my knowledge immensely. But I am still very much a novice.

The average consumer knows about the 4Cs. The poster is displayed in every jewellery store. Unfortunately ‘cut’ is defined as ‘shape’ and nothing more. Until I found PS, I too thought that ‘cut’ referred to ‘shape’. I now know better.

When a diamond company advertises that their diamonds have a superior or Ideal cut, as an ignorant consumer I believed them. I thought that companies couldn’t make such false claims without some sort of outcry – either from consumers or the diamond industry itself (appraisers, suppliers etc). I trusted them, because they are the experts. The ‘science’ of a good diamond was beyond my comprehension. Only gemmologists have this arcane knowledge. Yes, I was very naive. As are most consumers.

The aspect of ‘cut’, as anything other than ‘shape’, is just not discussed. There is no handy chart displayed in shops. The info isn’t on the little tag on the ring. Even the sales assistants think of ‘cut’ as ‘shape’. How many in-house grading reports have the table percentages and cut degrees on them?

Now that I know that ‘cut’ is so much more and so important, such advertising campaigns leave me disillusioned. They leave me sad and angry. Sad that everyday, hardworking people spend wads of their hard-earned money on inferior products; and angry because the diamond companies know they are selling inferior stones, and think that’s just fine. Rather than actually selling quality stones, they are just lying to naive consumers, because they can.

 

[langchunWei]

Why are we not in-depth discussion diamond-cutting - the unification of the standards?
In the theoretical study, we can not achieve the same understanding?
Why we do not have to mathematical logic, through a continuous function to achieve this unity?
In the practice of pure theory, we have find to a continuous function! ! !
"It" as a theoretical basis for a unified standard, whether it should be one key of the "function"?
I think we should be tightly around the "unification" to do research, this will be the right move.
Langchun Wei
CEO
Haikou zuan cheng Technology Company Ltd.
Add: tower1, No.41 chengxi Road, Haikou , Hainan province, China
Email: [email protected]
Website: www.DLSTCHINA.COM

 

[Haven]

Garry--To answer your original question, as a consumer (and pre-PS) it seemed pretty obvious that a whole lot of diamond retailers were serving up large heaps of false promises--all I had to do was take a look at these "Super Ideal Absolutelythemostbrilliantfierystoneyouwilleverseeinyourlife" diamonds to see that they were NOT anything special.

Since I found PS I''ve learned a lot, but the most interesting observation I can make is that folks in the diamond industry seem very anxious to do exactly what folks in the U.S. education industry (MY area) are constantly trying to do--standardize, quantify, and easily replicate brilliant products. See, as an educator, I contest that standardized instruction, testing, and "product development" just doesn''t work because, well, every student is different, their needs are different, and their strengths are different. As a lover of diamonds, I see the same thing--ideal cut RBs are pretty, yes, but they are all very nearly the same thing, over and over again, in varying sizes and shades. That does not excite me, no matter how fiery they are.

I don''t want a diamond that is formulaic and predictable, but unique and original doesn''t seem to work for retailers because they need a "standard" to rely on so they can dupe consumers into thinking that a diamond must look a certain way if it is to be valued. Unique doesn''t sell. It''s the same reason women walk around with handbags with giant logos smattered across them, and why Tiffany won''t customize a ring--if other people don''t recognize that you are in possession of this particular labeled product, then surely it loses its value. (NOT my opinion, of course.)

For my e-ring, my FI and I ended up choosing a cushion cut diamond that has medium fluor, only good symmetry, and it''s probably deeper than you would advise. However, after looking at cushion after cushion after cushion, this is the one that made my heart sing. Is it ideal? Well, that depends on who you''re asking, doesn''t it?

Sorry for the ramble. I''ve been staring at my computer screen for far too long this weekend.

 

[arjunajane]

"The SA was quite nice I actually felt sorry for the poor bugger, he was fairly young and I think considering I have enough knowledge to be dangerous to myself I may have scared him . The poor mite was trying to tell me that when the diamond was set you would not be able to see the arrows you would only be able to see the hearts??? (I politely corrected him). I can''t understand why a company would spend so much on marketing but not bother prepping their staff. "

Oh Deelight what a funny situation!

I agree. with so much

to splash around on advertising, you''d think they''d do a little product education aswell

I know it''d never fly, but since discovering PS, I have had to seriously hold myself back from telling SA''s and jewellers alike to check it out!

 

[diagem]

Welcome to PS...

Date: 2/18/2008 12:14:06 AM
Author: langchunWei

Why are we not in-depth discussion diamond-cutting - the unification of the standards?
Thats the problem..., the unification of the standards...

In the theoretical study, we can not achieve the same understanding?
Big difference between "theory" and "practical" in this segment...

Why we do not have to mathematical logic, through a continuous function to achieve this unity?
In the practice of pure theory, we have find to a continuous function! ! !
''It'' as a theoretical basis for a unified standard, whether it should be one key of the ''function''?
I think we should be tightly around the ''unification'' to do research, this will be the right move.

Langchun Wei
CEO
Haikou zuan cheng Technology Company Ltd.
Add: tower1, No.41 chengxi Road, Haikou , Hainan province, China
Email: [email protected]
Website: www.DLSTCHINA.COM

This industry is too primitive for "us" and "unification"..., we need new blood with new creative minds that have the ability to think out of the box!


But thats only my humble opinion...

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 2/18/2008 1:48:38 AM
Author: DiaGem




Welcome to PS...



This industry is too primitive for 'us' and 'unification'..., we need new blood with new creative minds that have the ability to think out of the box!


But thats only my humble opinion...

too bad the old guard controls the rough........ just under several different names now instead of one.
Is there enough margin for the cutters too take chances unless they are forced too?

 

[diagem]

Date: 2/18/2008 2:05:56 AM
Author: strmrdr

Date: 2/18/2008 1:48:38 AM
Author: DiaGem




Welcome to PS...



This industry is too primitive for ''us'' and ''unification''..., we need new blood with new creative minds that have the ability to think out of the box!


But thats only my humble opinion...

too bad the old guard controls the rough........ just under several different names now instead of one.
Is there enough margin for the cutters too take chances?

Storm..., its not one guard anymore..., its more than a few...,
Yes they are still controlling the prices..., but as a protection to themselves...,and too keep their margins all the way on top!

But (history proofs) its just a matter of time until they start to eat each-other...

In regards to your question: "Is there enough margin for the cutters too take chances?"

They way things are moving..., it looks like its going to be the only way for cutters to make margins!!!
Cutters are going to have to think outside the box if they want to survive!
Innovation is key!

And that will be the only way do deal with the shrinking margins..., cutters will have to deliver the un-existent!!!

You know the old saying..., Rap is not in the out of the ordinary...

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 2/18/2008 2:18:00 AM
Author: DiaGem
Storm..., its not one guard anymore..., its more than a few...,
Yes they are still controlling the prices..., but as a protection to themselves...,and too keep their margins all the way on top!

But (history proofs) its just a matter of time until they start to eat each-other...

In regards to your question: 'Is there enough margin for the cutters too take chances?'

They way things are moving..., it looks like its going to be the only way for cutters to make margins!!!
Cutters are going to have to think outside the box if they want to survive!
Innovation is key!

And that will be the only way do deal with the shrinking margins..., cutters will have to deliver the un-existent!!!

You know the old saying..., Rap is not in the out of the ordinary...

sure puts the cutters in a catch 22 don't it....
no cashflow to cover mistakes yet forced to take chances.
(note: yea I'm talking from the other direction than normal, too raise some points and see what people have too say)

Look at the board of directors and primary stakeholders in the varies companies and ill bet you will find the same names repeated over and over. (might have too dig down a few layers thru some holding companies)

 

[arjunajane]

Date: 2/16/2008 4:05:26 PM
Author: elmo
Garry, give me a break

. Which one of these statements is true:

James Allen - Only life is more beautiful.
Pearlman''s - The world''s leading luxury jewelry website.
Whiteflash - The world''s most visually balanced diamonds.
GOG - The ultimate diamond information site.

Is it that far off?

Hi Elmo, I would have to agree with you about the first three statements that you have listed in ur examples. As we know, all companies usually choose to have a slogan or catchcry as such - if they didn''t , then all ppl who work in marketing would be outta a job!

But of course, it is up to us, the consumer, to decide how much merit and trust we invest in such a slogan - I think the majority are so used to hearing such things , "The world''s best burgers", "The comfiest bed ever", etc, that they probably just fade into the white noise of advertising in general.

However, I would like to politley dissent on ur inclusion of GOG''s the UDIS in ur list, as this statement is slightly different - they are not making claims about the quality of their diamonds or product, but rather about the quality and quantity of information About diamonds that they provide. As they are not selling this service, then (IMHO) I don''t think it belongs in the above list.
Just my thunkin

 

[Serg]

Date: 2/18/2008 12:14:06 AM
Author: langchunWei

Why are we not in-depth discussion diamond-cutting - the unification of the standards?

Major Labs are not interesting in unification and objective grade.
If they will do it, they should close grading departments in USA and Europe( or they should find way to reduce cost of grading by automation whole grading process)


In the theoretical study, we can not achieve the same understanding?
Why we do not have to mathematical logic, through a continuous function to achieve this unity?
In the practice of pure theory, we have find to a continuous function! ! !
''It'' as a theoretical basis for a unified standard, whether it should be one key of the ''function''?
I think we should be tightly around the ''unification'' to do research, this will be the right move.

Langchun Wei
CEO
Haikou zuan cheng Technology Company Ltd.
Add: tower1, No.41 chengxi Road, Haikou , Hainan province, China
Email: [email protected]
Website: www.DLSTCHINA.COM

 

[diagem]

Date: 2/18/2008 2:23:52 AM
Author: strmrdr

Date: 2/18/2008 2:18:00 AM
Author: DiaGem
Storm..., its not one guard anymore..., its more than a few...,
Yes they are still controlling the prices..., but as a protection to themselves...,and too keep their margins all the way on top!

But (history proofs) its just a matter of time until they start to eat each-other...

In regards to your question: ''Is there enough margin for the cutters too take chances?''

They way things are moving..., it looks like its going to be the only way for cutters to make margins!!!
Cutters are going to have to think outside the box if they want to survive!
Innovation is key!

And that will be the only way do deal with the shrinking margins..., cutters will have to deliver the un-existent!!!

You know the old saying..., Rap is not in the out of the ordinary...

sure puts the cutters in a catch 22 don''t it....
no cashflow to cover mistakes yet forced to take chances.
(note: yea I''m talking from the other direction than normal, too raise some points and see what people have too say)

Yes..., I will be interesting to see what people say...,
but remember Storm...., when DeBeers was in control of 80% of the market..., the majority of cutters were sitting comfortably receiving their monthly allocations either directly or through the second, third (etc..) hand, cutting their monthly quotas and then their client were waiting for their polished quota''s...
Thats one of the problems this industry has with its primitiveness..., no-one had to fight for their livelyhood..., it was based on comfortable routine!!! No one had to invent the wheel..., nothing was changing..., and everyone was making money..., and that is why this industry look like this today!

Now things are changing...., like I said before many times: The small Companies have a chance today..., while the big Companies are busy making numbers...

"Small people with BIG ideas will win over BIG people with small ideas"

In my opinion..., this is the time for the small creative people who are willing to take sensible risks!!!

Look at the board of directors and primary stakeholders in the varies companies and ill bet you will find the same names repeated over and over. (might have too dig down a few layers thru some holding companies)

Storm..., you are wrong on this one..., some of the big (players) Rough producers are huge conglomerates which Diamond mining is just a by-product for them..., Thats why most of them are following the DeBeers business model as far as pricing structure is concerned!
But you can clearly notice some rough producers are detaching themselves from that model these days...

Take some of the Canadian rough producers..., they are coming out with their own pricing structure...,
(much higher than DeBeers''s..., actually makes DeBeers look like they are giving the stuff away...

)

But again..., its NOT apples and apples..., you cant compare the high quality assortments between them....

 

[Mediterranean]

I really rather prefer to treat a "branded cut" as a "branded SHAPE" instead. Light performance standards for rounds are especially well-researched and then, of course, there's the shoppers visual evaluation (assuming said visual evaluation has some knowledge and education behind it, of course).

It's hard to believe the hype when you watch some of these touted "Best And Brightest" cuts literally disappear.... wherefore art thou, Jubilee cut?? Anyone remember the Buddha cut? How about the Christmas Tree cut? The Asprey cut?

The bottom line is always....well, the bottom line ($$$$$)

These special cuts are time consuming to execute, I would assume. They've got to meet the particular "standards" of the cut's inventor... Correct me if I'm wrong, but diamond cutters make their money by completing their projects right? So, if you're a cutter, or cutting company, and you can crank out a hundred "good" cut round brilliants for every one or two "Ashokas" or "Amorillions" or whatever, what would you do as a cutter?

So, you've got these special, branded cuts that cost a fortune because of the work that goes into achieving the cut-level....if the buying public doesn't think it's worth paying for, then it's not worth cutting is it?

Also an issue for many people: the ability of the stone to hold its value (as a re-sale or trade-up item) I mean, how much is your Christmas-Tree Cut worth on the open market or in a trade up situation if NOBODY wants it?


Thanks to Barry Gutwein's super-fabulous article on fancies, BTW. That's where I learned a lot of the stuff I poted about....

 

[WinkHPD]

Date: 2/16/2008 1:54:01 PM
Author: strmrdr

Date: 2/16/2008 1:41:00 PM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)
WOW - so many responses, so little time to reply.
We are off to the airport.

But let me ask you all how these claims that involve absolute statements affect yours or other shoppers confidence?

I have times found myself in the uncomfortable position of busting the hype and trying to bring the discussion down to reality especially with branded rounds that are no different than any other high performance round and worse than some.
I have too say that has damaged others confidence in the industry and my own.
HOF is one of the worst offenders on that front, 8* was for a while until they more or less faded out of the picture.
If it wasn''t for WF and the ACA and Paul''s Inifinity line id say that all branded RB''s do nothing but damage consumer confidence.
The reason they arent evil is they provide the information too back up the claims and keep the hype down somewhat.
Most of the hype for both brands comes from consumers, Brian and Paul are pretty down too earth about them.


Stay safe and have fun on your trip!!

If I might comment. Disclaimer, I am a Dealer of Paul''s stones, if you did not know that, please do and take my comment with the appropriate grain(s) of salt.

First, Storm, thank you for the kind words about both lines.

Second. Storm, would you agree that both lines not only keep the hype down, a LOT, but that they consistantly deliver what they promise?

I think the damage to the industry in the mind of the consumer is with the puffery often comes lack of consistency in delivery of promise. That is what worries me. Most consumers will not do the homework necessary to know that some lines deliver and some don''t, so they will feel that all the lines are a bunch of over puffing jerks if they have one bad experience. Sigh.

Wink

 

[oldminer]

Automated grading of performance, color and clarity is the eventual cure which will help to rebuild lost credibility due to puffed advertising.
Since agreement on standards can really only come after automation and repeatability come in full use, I sort of doubt any short tem solution. Consumers today have a huge and increasing advantage in knowledge. Even as things are, the consumer is in a far better position to make an informed choice than ever before.