41 degree pavillion angle

[pyramid]

Date: 7/15/2007 4:49:55 AM
Author: Lorelei
Pyramid, I just wanted to pop in and say, that I am really excited for you and hope this is THE ONE!!! If so, perhaps a new thread with pics sometime please?

Lorelei

I am sorry I don''t even own a digital camera or I would have been posting pictures before with all my questions. I hope to get one sometime soon though. At the moment I am just still not sure, I have received the diamond, I am just reading what the experts here are writing and if I do return it there will always be another diamond sometime even if I have to wait.

 

[Lorelei]

No worries Pyramid, you know that size is going to be stunning around our parts too, so I hope you keep it!

I think it is a corker from the info!

 

[pyramid]

Date: 7/15/2007 7:04:57 AM
Author: Lorelei
No worries Pyramid, you know that size is going to be stunning around our parts too, so I hope you keep it!

I think it is a corker from the info!

Thanks Lorelei. This morning I am thinking to return it, I just feel unsettled about it all and would really rather have the lower pavillion, not just because of what they say may be darkness or colour entrapment (I am happy with the colour and think I may see a tonal darkness under the table but may be imagining that one, tonal is black to white and I think it looks a slight bit light greyer under the table but then that is where I see the black arrows coming together so it may just be that because of course I am not trained at all to look for tone, it is not like dark grey) but also because I don't feel I really love it and I think I like the look of a higher crown from the profile. If there is a tonal change maybe that is why I don't like the diamond but I could not put my finger on that being what it was just that there was something about it I didn't care for, so not what most people would probably even notice at all. I am only saying it may be this because of what the experts have written but if they were here they may say what I am saying I don't care about as being a totally different thing. That is what an amateur giving advice on the forums is about, you never really know if there is something wrong or is it just their opinion or that they are being paranoid , I mean not on purpose brainwashed by the experts but they are just seeing it that this is what is wrong because they don't really know what it is. So even with all this expertise here about the cutting or scientific parts of it, it may just come down to me not liking it with my own eyes and the crown height. When I opened the box if I had really liked it these details probably wouldn't have mattered so I am thinking I need to send it back just for how I feel. Others may like this look.

 

[Lorelei]

Do you know what I think? Live with it for a day or 2 and see if you fall in love with it, you can''t do anything today, so try to not think about returning it, but that seeing if you click with it. Weather isn''t too bad my end so yours might be ok, get out in the sun and see how it looks in different lights and get to know it before you make a final decision!

 

[pyramid]

Hi Lorelei

Yes that is what I have been doing since Friday, not looking at it all the time so as not to cloud my mind but just now and then, there is very little sun here and was none at all Friday or Yesterday really, just blinks from behind the clouds. I will make up my mind tomorrow probably.

The size is really why I went with it although I was having this thing about the 41 pavillion because I knew that an H over 2 carat would be more than I could afford, I may just have to wait and save more money and see if another becomes available under 2 carats. Even with saving more I feel that this is really the price I want to stay at. i.e. I over 2 carat but H under.

I have seen some I colours I like but need to see them in person myself and I really don't want to do this again, it feels bad enough just now wondering how it will work out sending it back with customs refund and getting the courier, I noticed it was a different name which delivered it from Fedex so they must transfer to another company in Scotland sometimes although they do have a place in Edinburgh. Ofcourse I will contact Fedex online and let them sort that out incase they use more than one company it probably I am thinking would have to come from them. The boxes were all Fedex ofcourse from America so if I had not seen the van with the other name I would not have know which company delivered it.

 

[Lorelei]

I think this is the bottom line - how do you feel when wearing it? Does it make your heart sing - forget about the pav angle if you can and just see how you feel - how would you feel too if it went back and someone else snatched it? Does this diamond make you feel happy? You have there one of the best cut diamonds available, is the reality worth all the work and a fantastic result of all the time you have spent on PS over so many years? I know you have been working towards this for over 2 years at least, bearing in mind the reality is never quite as good as the dream, but does this diamond feel right?

Just trying to throw out some thoughts for you hoping they might help!

 

[pyramid]

Date: 7/15/2007 7:39:38 AM
Author: Lorelei
I think this is the bottom line - how do you feel when wearing it? Does it make your heart sing - forget about the pav angle if you can and just see how you feel - how would you feel too if it went back and someone else snatched it? Does this diamond make you feel happy? You have there one of the best cut diamonds available, is the reality worth all the work and a fantastic result of all the time you have spent on PS over so many years? I know you have been working towards this for over 2 years at least, bearing in mind the reality is never quite as good as the dream, but does this diamond feel right?

Just trying to throw out some thoughts for you hoping they might help!

Yes that is the bottom line and that is why I feel I am probably going to return it. I think I need more fire, although I do prefer brilliance over fire a bit. However a small diamond I have looks more lively to me in a way than this one, although I read I think it was Cehra saying one time about the light taking longer to travel in a larger stone so that is probably it. However the HCA does say VG for Fire and Scintillation and I think that is something I am maybe missing, remember I cannot speak fact here because I have no training. Jonathan looking at it would probably say there is nothing lacking and could be right. I have not had the correct different lights to try it in or sun and there again how would I know the difference from VG to EX on Garry's scale when I don't have that to compare it to. However even if I had another to compare it to I just feel this one doesn't as you said make my heart sing and feel happy apart from the colour it looks very colourless to me (I can see the H because I have seen that before compared to a G) so it is not the colour at all, and even though some are writing about that, this doesn't bother me. So I feel myself if the rest didn't bother me whatever they are saying would not have put me off. I just feel myself to tell the truth that the centre when I look down on the diamond seems to me to go more into a deeper cone than I would like.

When I look at the diamond at 45 degrees (as I told Jonathan) the diamond looks the same as all the photos posted on Pricescope, ofcourse people don't post photos of their diamond looking down into it. However the other smaller stones I own do not have this look, which ofcourse could be because it is a bigger stone again, so I really don't know what I am talking about, trying to clarity it. Really the bottom line is apart from the size and colour and clarity I don't love the diamond. The cut is excellent (dare I say it a being like me who couldn't even start the wheel never mind cut one facet) but it is not like my other diamonds, it is very very very nice looking, the arrows look lovely when I get them at an angle to darken which is normal, the presentation is everything too and Jonathan could not be a better vendor.

Infact I remember someone writing a good time ago and only remember this one because they were one person, and they said they felt their purchase was not really appreciated at GoodoldGold when they enquired about buying so went somewhere else, well I remember thinking about that post and thinking I have had the exact opposite experience there is no way at all you could say Jonathan has not been attentive and he does not push you to buy if you don't want to as his words to me about this have been 'you are the boss (my name)' and I honest to God can say you will not get a better vendor and I would not say that if I did not think it. Infact I even asked him if he had other stones in his inventory he thought would be better and he posted links to the others around this weight some more expensive and he even wrote to me in the same post, that he honestly wouldn't change this stone for another one. So he definitely is not trying to get you to buy a more expensive product. He is just not like that at all. Oh and he did not know until the day the ring was sent that I was Pyramid from Pricescope so all the attention had nothing to do with the forum here. He is genuinely helpful and wants what is best for his customer.

Even reading some of the comments left at the top of various pages on his website, I can say every time I read them to myself that, yes I could imagine him being like that. Christen is also very good, when I first was buying I needed the price of the ring mount and the site said to send the completed part of the web page to Marie well I wanted to send the bankwire that day (impatient me) so I had emailed before with Charles and Christen about the diamond seeing the lab report etc, so I asked Christen in an email because it is a plain style I was going for and she came straight back with the price so I could do the bankwire. Marie may not have been there that day I don't know. However I receive replies from Christen by return and the same with Jonathan unless he is busy. Infact I even received a reply from Jonathan which said he was presently with a customer but giving me like a one sentence bit of information and he would get back to me.

I have dealt with Whiteflash in the past and they are very good too.

 

[Lorelei]

I hear what you are saying and it is hard when you don't have anything to compare too. Also bigger diamonds do seem to have this different vibe going on to smaller ones, hard to describe....smaller diamonds seem to have more of a snap crackle and pop glitter to them, with the larger ones it seems they behave completely differently- I am probably not making much sense LOL but that is my personal experience!

But I think with diamonds too, we get caught up in the numbers sure, but the emotional part is what is so important and if you are having serious doubts then perhaps you need to keep looking Pyrrie! After all, the numbers are a very important step on the path to us finding the diamond which will give us that little jump of joy every time we look at it for years - but numbers aside, if you don't get that jump of joy, then you need to find one that makes you feel it - easier said than done! I am sure it is a stunning diamond and it is a shame though.

 

[pyramid]

Thanks Lorelei.

Yes and as I said before I don't really know what I am looking for, so I just wanted to say incase anymore amateur people read this, that this deeper cone thing I said about the diamond that I think I see (not tone or colour) just the shape, maybe the size of the stone I said, I have also thought that it could as likely be that the table is 56 and I am sure the tables on my smaller stones are not that and probably over 57.5% the ideal table size (from the old grading systems).

Yes I need to make up my mind really for me if I want to keep the diamond or not and nothing to do with the conversation going on amongst the experts. It was interesting though to see Serg's graphs too. I hope Brian, John or Michaelgem or Garry H, HeScores, Jonathan or Storm (who says he is not an expert but knows a lot more than me) or any of the experts, who posted I have missed out, will talk a little bit further about that from their different sides of the fence so to speak.

 

[michaelgem]

Date: 7/15/2007 5:49:30 AM
Author: Serg

Date: 7/15/2007 5:07:33 AM
Author: whatmeworry
Sergey,
Interesting work. I''m trying to understand what they mean. Longer path lengths = more color entrapment? The princess diagram shows why fancy shapes show more color?

1) Yes
2) Why princess could has more color( Final color depends from spectrum too)

Excellent demonstration, Sergey,

As Strmrdr showed with raytracing, color entrapment is an intrigueing sounding term that is really light ray entrapment. That is, some sources of light rays come to your eyes after being "trapped" bouncing back and forth within the diamond picking up more and more color before they "escape" to your eyes.

What Sergey has so elegantly demonstrated is a partial validation of Brians understanding that as the pavilion angle goes over 41 with the crown left at 34.5, there is more white (7diameters), thus more color, in the middle ring of the eye of the diamond.

But if you are smart, you do not leave the crown angle at 34.5 while increasing the pavilion angle from 40.75

As I said before: 34/41 is smack dab in the middle of the Ideal sweet spot in most grading systems and for most Ideal cutting houses.

The evidence I discuss in my article does show that as you increase the pavilion angle from Tolkowsky''s 40.75 to 41.4, you should reduce the crown angle from 34.5 somewhat along the "axis of Ideal" to maintain Ideal, Excellent or Ags Ideal 0 light performance.

Implying that there is a cliff at 41 degrees when the GIA Excellent and AGS Ideal 0 pavilion angles go to 41.8 for a 56-57% table lacks support from either AGS or GIA.

If Sergey adjusts the crown angle somewhat along the "axis of Ideal" , that is, as he increases the pavilion angle from 40.75 he inversly adjusts the crown angle, he will find similar path length histograms. That is what the AGS charts, the GIA charts and the MSU charts indirectly imply.

To make it easy, Sergey, can you post a side by side histogram of Tolkowsky''s 40.75, 34.5 with the sweet spot center of 41, 34 for a 56 table?

I think it is really sad that someone with as much time and experience on PriceScope as Pyramid, can talk herself out of what is argueably an unbeatable beauty.

Ideal regards,

Michael

 

[Lynn B]

Pyramid,

Have you had a chance to look at other well-cut diamonds in that size range? Lorelei is right, larger diamonds definitely have a different "look" than smaller ones. All the facets are bigger, so the flashes are bigger... the scint is *different*... I think her "snap, crackle, pop" analogy was GREAT!

I bet it''s a KILLER stone that any of us would die for

-- but it does need to make your heart sing. And if that isn''t happening, you do need to keep looking. The perfect stone for you IS out there! I promise!!!

 

[pyramid]

Date: 7/15/2007 8:32:54 AM
Author: michaelgem







If Sergey adjusts the crown angle somewhat along the 'axis of Ideal' , that is, as he increases the pavilion angle from 40.75 he inversly adjusts the crown angle, he will find similar path length histograms. That is what the AGS charts, the GIA charts and the MSU charts indirectly imply.


I think it is really sad that someone with as much time and experience on PriceScope as Pyramid, can talk herself out of what is argueably an unbeatable beauty.

Thanks michaelgem

Not getting into any technicals here because I don't know about it, I do understand what you are all writing and what you all mean but I am a non knowing person regarding talking about any of it myself.

However the inverse crown and pavillion angles, I believe was something that Garry Holloway found out I believe long before GIA AND AGS and yet they are the people always quoted for it. I think they ought to stand up and attribute that to Garry

, ha just speaking from a consumer point of view and I like to see the people get the praise for it in the same way Morse should if his diamond angles were better than Tolkowskys. Garry says in the tutorial that his finding this out was just 'common sense' but I put that down to his Australian way of talking a bit like the British we don't brag enough, but Garry it was not common sense because otherwise the diamond angles put up by AGS etc would have accounted for it and they didn't in the past. So I do think Garry needs to be recognized for something which only he thinks is 'common sense' because of his great mind.

I am not really talking myself out of it, but I am sort of piggy in the middle here when there are two very well read and practiced people with differing views, yourself and Brian the Cutter, not to mention other gemmologists and Garry's (who is a gemmologist too) HCA measuring the diamond as lacking even if just a small amount in Fire and Scintillation from one which receives 4 EXs on his HCA although I know he has said himself the tool is for a first rejection and not to put too much into the 4 EXs part of it.

So anyway, will GIA and AGS recognise Garry Holloway for the inversion thing which he told the public about before GIA and AGS even knew about it?

 

[diagem]

Date: 7/15/2007 8:32:54 AM
Author: michaelgem
I think it is really sad that someone with as much time and experience on PriceScope as Pyramid, can talk herself out of what is argueably an unbeatable beauty.

Ideal regards,

Michael

I guess that what happens when you have too much info. on such a micro difference...
It will naturally push consumers away...

But I do agree with you Michael..., the Diamond in subject sounds like a unbeatable beauty!!!

 

[Serg]

P41 Cr34 T54
Avarage length ray 1.39D

 

[WorkingHardforSmallRewards]

Date: 7/15/2007 7:31:43 AM
Author: Pyramid
Hi Lorelei


Yes that is what I have been doing since Friday, not looking at it all the time so as not to cloud my mind but just now and then, there is very little sun here and was none at all Friday or Yesterday really, just blinks from behind the clouds.

Hey, I know I don''t know any more than you, probably a good deal less, but I have to say that if it is fire you are looking for, as you know, these conditions simply won''t make it happen. You have a pretty big window of return time, and there is certainly the possibility that once things clear up above and once your emotions calm down then your diamond will taken on a much more impressive personality. I would say head out to the store and by some halogen lighting for your house, Take it in a bathrrom with no widows light 6-10 candles and look at it in that lighting, then look at it in the mirror and see how it performs if you were someone else viewing the diamond. No need to rush I think, at least give the weather some time to change out on you as sun is going to be one of your most common sources of fire. You spent all this time selecting it, so I feel pretty strong that you shouldn''t be TOO hasty to send him back.

 

[Serg]

P41 cr34 T56
Average 1.396

 

[Serg]

P40.75 Cr 34.5 T60
Average 1.341

 

[Serg]

P41.50 Cr34 T56
Average 1.658 D

 

[strmrdr]

Serg way kewl.
At what point does the Average length ray difference become meaningful?
Eye visible?
Is a couple blue dots enough to affect visible color?
based on the overall scale of what you posted there isn''t a huge difference in any of those.

 

[michaelgem]

Author: DiaGem

I guess that’s what happens when you have too much info. on such a micro difference...
It will naturally push consumers away...

But I do agree with you Michael..., the Diamond in subject sounds like a unbeatable beauty!!!

Thanks michaelgem

However the inverse crown and pavillion angles, I believe was something that Garry Holloway found out I believe long before GIA AND AGS and yet they are the people always quoted for it. I think they ought to stand up and attribute that to Garry, just speaking from a consumer point of view and I like to see the people get the praise for it in the same way Morse should if his diamond angles were better than Tolkowsky’s. So I do think Garry needs to be recognized for something which only he thinks is ''common sense'' because of his great mind. So anyway, will GIA and AGS recognize Garry Holloway for the inversion thing, which he told the public about before GIA and AGS even knew about it?

Pyramid,

Your loyalty and affection for Garry is not misplaced. I too am passionate about seeing that people get the recognition that they deserve, hence my promotion of the most important innovator in round brilliant diamond cutting, Henry Morse, in addition to, not instead of Tolkowsky.

I came to the diamond field in the 80’s already having been versed in gemstone optics and computer aided gemstone facet design. As a research engineer and amateur faceter, I learned from such stellar individuals as Robert Long, Norm Steele, Bruce Harding, and Robert Strickland (Mr. GemCadWin), as well as the gemology greats, especially GIA’s Richard Liddicoat when it came to diamonds.

Back then, before Pricescope existed, I remember arguing with Garry over whether the slope of what I now refer to as the Axis of Ideal was –2:1 or closer to –4:1. At that time Garry was using the GIA research study to validate why –2:1 was correct, and I was using arguments from knowledge of Bruce Harding’s work and Dr. Werner Eulitz’s work and Robert Strickland’s investigations that indicated the slope was between –4:1 and –6:1.

My article today puts it near –4.5:1, while I understand AGS may be going with –5:1. And I know of diamond cutters that use –4:1. The exact slope is less important than the knowledge that a steeper pavilion must be compensated by a corresponding shallower crown angle to maintain similar light performance. Both Garry and Robert Strickland came to the inverse slope idea independently in similar time frames.

In the same time frame both Garry and I became acquainted with those amazing Russians, Sergey, Yuri and Anton and their MSU cut study, and their subsequent software products including the now famous DiamCalc.

Since that time, and to a great degree due to our association with the Russians and Sergey’s company’s software technology, both Garry and I have come a long way in our knowledge and understanding, as have others that you see posting here.

The answer to your question of recognition, unfortunately, is that it usually goes to imbedded institutions with a lot of money to promote themselves, who get a lot of loyalty from those that rely on their reports for their credibility, rather than those individuals who deserve acknowledgement for their innovations.

I am happy to see Garry at least get the recognition and gratitude on PriceScope that he richly deserves. And, as I am sure he will tell you, the Russians deserve as well.

I just had an idea. Knowing the high regard in which you hold Garry, why not ask him if your diamond is not an unbeatable beauty? If he or Sergey take the time to analyze the posted specifications and Ideal Scope Hearts and Arrows images, I am confident both will give you two thumbs up for this diamond.

Best wishes,

Michael

 

[Serg]

Date: 7/15/2007 10:49:21 AM
Author: strmrdr
Serg way kewl.
At what point does the Average length ray difference become meaningful?
Eye visible?
Is a couple blue dots enough to affect visible color?
based on the overall scale of what you posted there isn't a huge difference in any of those.

Strongly depends from type spectrum. I can not show it now, PS blocks my attachment now( May be some techical problem )

 

[Serg]

re: Error Message
Unspecified error. Please report this error to the webmaster of this board. Thank you.
Detailed error information:
Application uses a value of the wrong type for the current operation.
If you want more information about this error or would like to report this error to the administrator of this bulletin board, please contact the webmaster of this web site. We appologize for any inconvenience this might''ve caused you.

Do anybody see problem with file name " RoundP4075CR3450T57D74FancySpectrumSaturation0508.jpg"

 

[WinkHPD]

Date: 7/15/2007 9:09:46 AM
Author: DiaGem

Date: 7/15/2007 8:32:54 AM

Author: michaelgem

I think it is really sad that someone with as much time and experience on PriceScope as Pyramid, can talk herself out of what is argueably an unbeatable beauty.


Ideal regards,


Michael

I guess that what happens when you have too much info. on such a micro difference...

It will naturally push consumers away...


But I do agree with you Michael..., the Diamond in subject sounds like a unbeatable beauty!!!

I also agree that the stone should be a beauty, but our supplicant states that it does not make her heart happy. That alone is why she asked for opinions, to see if she could figure out if it was the 41 degree or not.

I am not sure if she has decided why she does not like it, or if she ever will, or even if when the sun comes out she decides that she does, but her HER PERSONAL PREFERENCE is as valid as any one else''s.

In the end we all buy what we like, even if we do not know why we like it. All of us here try to quantify the reasons someone should like a stone, and what we believe make the best stones, but in the end, it is the client''s personal preference that must be respected by all of us vendors.

Wink

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 7/15/2007 11:37:05 AM
Author: Serg

re: Error Message
Unspecified error. Please report this error to the webmaster of this board. Thank you.

Detailed error information:
Application uses a value of the wrong type for the current operation.

If you want more information about this error or would like to report this error to the administrator of this bulletin board, please contact the webmaster of this web site. We appologize for any inconvenience this might''ve caused you.

Do anybody see problem with file name '' RoundP4075CR3450T57D74FancySpectrumSaturation0508.jpg''

try a shorter name.

 

[Serg]

P41 Cr34 T57 Saturation 0.508

 

[pyramid]

Thanks Wink, but then again my judgement could be coloured because I was asking Jonathan about the 41 pavillion before I received the diamond so that was not after, I do know the H colour does not bother me one bit, I see this cone in the centre but maybe that is just me or maybe larger diamonds look like that because I have only had smaller ones before. I think I will go over to Show Me The Ring and look for the 2 carat thread and see what pictures people have posted, although I don't see this when I hold the stone at 45 degrees to my eye, only when I look down into it and then there is not much sun/light here, my main room has beige walls so that may have something to do with it too.

Michaelgem, I would love for Garry to give his opinion but I am a bit afraid of it too, after all the VGs on the HCA. I also take it from what Garry wrote earlier that a diamond with 41 degree pavillion would look dirtier faster.

 

[Serg]

Thanks. More shorter name is work
P41.5 Cr34.5 T57 Sat 0.545

 

[Serg]

P40.75 cR34.5 t57 Saturation=0.508( same like 41/34)

 

[Serg]

Final grade color STRONGLY depends from light Scheme of course

 

[michaelgem]

Serg,

Way Kewl only begins to describe the value of this research tool of yours. This is just one more example of the invaluable contributions that your company''s research and investigation has made to the diamond community.

You have posted the attached P41 cr34 T56 Average 1.396.

I am waiting to see the corresponding results for the Tolkowsky P40.75 cr34.5 T56 for comparison purposes.

Thank you.

Michael