41 degree pavillion angle
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iwannaprettyone
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What range of crowns?
Date: 7/11/2007 11:07:47 AM
Author: belle
what is the problem with a 38'' waistine?
Belle I have been reading, reading lots of posts but it is always the same people who are saying no to 41 and I notice none of the professionals ever seem to comment upon it.
Oh and a 38 foot waistline would be pretty bad
strmrdr
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identical to the 34/41, keep in mind that this is making assumptions and the IS image of the actual diamond trumps these.
Just a crown and pavilion angle isn''t an accurate way to model a diamond but it gives the general idea of what the effect of the pavilion angle is.
A small change in the pavilion angle has a much larger effect than the same change in the crown angle.
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I seem to recall a conversation about this in the past when an actual 35/41 combo was ran on AGS proprietary PGS software and it is *ideal* instead of a 1. The charts are not entirely reliable.
Being that I work regularly with 41 degree angled Hearts & Arrows diamonds I can tell you from years of experience there is absolutely no issue with them whatsoever. Not only in a practical examination (with the eyes) but also in a critical examination using whatever technology you like that performs an actual live examination of the diamond (ie. Red Reflector, ASET, BScope, Isee2, you name it.).
Peace,
strmrdr
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When I first started out on PS a lot of people were saying 41 pavilion angles are bad, with some crown angles they are but new research mainly from AGS has proven the old thinking wrong.Date: 7/11/2007 11:35:48 AM
Author: Pyramid
Date: 7/11/2007 11:07:47 AM
Author: belle
what is the problem with a 38'' waistine?
Belle I have been reading, reading lots of posts but it is always the same people who are saying no to 41 and I notice none of the professionals ever seem to comment upon it.
Oh and a 38 foot waistline would be pretty bad
GIA and work by Serg has also since has shown that the steep/deep combos arent as bad as once thought because of the effects of 2 eyes looking at them which want taken into account before.
Frankly I still dont care for steep/deeps for spread reasons and can see the ring of death in some lighting in them, but the shallower crowned 41s flat out rock and I would buy one.
When I was shopping for Wifey2b''s upgade I looked for a 34.x/41 but couldnt find one so ended up with a just as good 34.4/40.8 superideal.
belle
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maybe it is because the professionals realize how unrealistic it is to make definite distinctions about diamonds they have not seen in person?Date: 7/11/2007 11:35:48 AM
Author: Pyramid
Date: 7/11/2007 11:07:47 AM
Author: belle
what is the problem with a 38'' waistine?
Belle I have been reading, reading lots of posts but it is always the same people who are saying no to 41 and I notice none of the professionals ever seem to comment upon it.
Oh and a 38 foot waistline would be pretty bad
you have to realize pyramid, that there is a point that these infintesimal differences are not going to make a difference. first of all, one number alone is not going to trash an otherwise nice set of proportions. i used the waist analogy to illustrate that (and it was inches!) you can''t judge the whole package by one number alone. a 38" (inch) waist on someone that is 5'' (feet) tall will look much different than on someone that is 6'' (feet) tall. you have to look at the whole picture. also take into account the measurement accuracy itself, and of course the much discussed ROUNDING that can occur. my tape measure says 35" and yours says 38" which one do i use to make my decision? 35" is going to sound much better and it will ''feel'' better to the person than 38" but in reality, no one will likely ever really notice and appreciate that difference. the only real distinction is going to be those measurements combined with everything else.
iwannaprettyone
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I am slightly confused on this I think. From the examples you changed the crown 1 degree and not the pav and it went to lots of leakage. What if you changed both to 34.5cr and 41.4pav? Half a degree both ways?
iwannaprettyone
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Yes, useful tool Strmdr! Thank you!
strmrdr
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here is a 34.5/41
not a lot of difference between it and 34 but some.
between 34.5 and 35 is a bigger jump.
It is not a linear relationship like its not for every .5% crown its 10% worse/better.
It can be +.5 1% difference add another .5 10% difference.
That is for the crown, for the pavilion once you hit certain points it can be .2 degrees that makes a large difference.
not a lot of difference between it and 34 but some.
between 34.5 and 35 is a bigger jump.
It is not a linear relationship like its not for every .5% crown its 10% worse/better.
It can be +.5 1% difference add another .5 10% difference.
That is for the crown, for the pavilion once you hit certain points it can be .2 degrees that makes a large difference.
iwannaprettyone
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Ahh, ok I see the light! (no pun intended). Thanks!!!
Date: 7/11/2007 11:56:13 AM
Author: belle
maybe it is because the professionals realize how unrealistic it is to make definite distinctions about diamonds they have not seen in person?
you have to realize pyramid, that there is a point that these infintesimal differences are not going to make a difference. first of all, one number alone is not going to trash an otherwise nice set of proportions. i used the waist analogy to illustrate that (and it was inches!) you can't judge the whole package by one number alone. a 38' (inch) waist on someone that is 5' (feet) tall will look much different than on someone that is 6' (feet) tall. you have to look at the whole picture. also take into account the measurement accuracy itself, and of course the much discussed ROUNDING that can occur. my tape measure says 35' and yours says 38' which one do i use to make my decision? 35' is going to sound much better and it will 'feel' better to the person than 38' but in reality, no one will likely ever really notice and appreciate that difference. the only real distinction is going to be those measurements combined with everything else.
Yes I agree with you that the professionals cannot make distinctions, but when prosumers are saying 41 degree pavillion is bad and the only diamond fitting my parameters was great otherwise than the 41 degree pavillion and all I am finding is that this is a no no or 'not what I would prefer' from other posters, it makes a person undecided. If I was in the USA it would be different because with the trade up policy/return policy I could look myself and decide, but being in the UK although it is not impossible it is a lot harder when dealing with customs, shipping etc.
Yes and I see what you are saying about measurements and the relationships to other parts of the diamond but although I had read that 34/41 works I had read as many times and many posts from people asking the same question I had and when most diamonds by volume are being bought by people here in the 40.7-40.9 pavillion angle it makes you think there is something wrong with it although you know it is minute differences.
Another thing which added to the paranoia was posts I found about Super Ideal stating Super was not an industry standard but never the less vendors all had their version of super and I found an actual link pointing to Niceice website where the measurements of what THEY considered Super Ideal was listed (no fault to them because all vendors have their version), however when I read there that everything fitted in except the pavillion angle of 41 was greater than their stated 40.9 it sort of confirmed in my mind that it was not a Super Ideal but only an Ideal. Not that there is anything at all wrong with an Ideal or even a Very Good if that is what a person wants but when you are looking for the top cut it makes you feel this diamond is less worthy than others of AGS0 out there.
Just re-read my reply to belle and it comes off wrong I think. It is like I am complaining about what posters are saying and I am not, they have every right to say that the 41 pavillion is not for them if that is what they see it like, if it just frustrating to read that and think that makes the diamond bad. Maybe I need to see that opinions are not fact and that is maybe where I am going wrong. I think I was believing the posters and then the vendors tell you it is so minute that it is okay and it is like well who do you believe.
belle
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pyramid, first of all let me say that i *completely* understand the stress of pouring over all of these numbers in the search for your perfect diamond. i think ALL of us around here do, as we have all been there. the added stress of ''getting it right'' because you don''t have the luxury of sending diamonds back and forth weighs heavily as well but trust me, once you hit a certain level of craftmanship these minute differences are not going to make a discernable difference. i know we want to *think* there is going to be a big difference but the truth is, there may not be. most of the cries against certain angles have been semi-educated regurgitation of information posted somewhere along the line and not first hand experience. you''ve been here long enough to realize that there are no definite answers. don''t overthink it! again, easier said than done, i know but you really do have to just let it go at some point. you will feel instant relief once you actually purchase the diamond and realize how much stress you could have saved! we''re not going to let you get a bad diamond.... you can''t, we don''t have bad diamonds around here!
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Great advice from Miss Belle, Pyramid I think the diamond you are considering would be hard to beat and it will be a corker!!!Date: 7/11/2007 1:41:23 PM
Author: belle
pyramid, first of all let me say that i *completely* understand the stress of pouring over all of these numbers in the search for your perfect diamond. i think ALL of us around here do, as we have all been there. the added stress of ''getting it right'' because you don''t have the luxury of sending diamonds back and forth weighs heavily as well but trust me, once you hit a certain level of craftmanship these minute differences are not going to make a discernable difference. i know we want to *think* there is going to be a big difference but the truth is, there may not be. most of the cries against certain angles have been semi-educated regurgitation of information posted somewhere along the line and not first hand experience. you''ve been here long enough to realize that there are no definite answers. don''t overthink it! again, easier said than done, i know but you really do have to just let it go at some point. you will feel instant relief once you actually purchase the diamond and realize how much stress you could have saved! we''re not going to let you get a bad diamond.... you can''t, we don''t have bad diamonds around here!
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