our own John Pollard in a AGS podcast advertisement
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re:I am not sure "performance" is the correct word here..., but if you practice enough..., I am certain you could notice a minute change in appearance! But I may be completely wrong as I never tried it myself..., but in fancies I have my ways to visualize such differences on my models!
Diagem,
May be I need change performance to Beauty. sorry for my simple English
Of course professional can be trained to recognize difference. But if you can see difference it is not mean what you can see difference in performance-Beauty
Do you see difference between green and red colors? do you see difference in performance-Beauty between green and red colors.
Do you see difference between D and E diamonds? Could you see difference in performance-Beauty between D and E colors
Both example are not same what I asked for P41 and P41.6
I just want show difference is not equal performance grade / Rejection system is not performance-Beauty grade system
John see a lot of small sharks, I see several big Sharks . Consuner can be smart enough to avoide small sharks, But he has not real chance avoid big Sharks now
In other markets Labs do not grade Beauty( safety ,cheating are standard niche for Labs.) Gemological Labs should do identification firstly. Do they do it good? No.
Better if Labs will invest more efforts todiagnostic synthetics or change Name of Business
Diagem,
May be I need change performance to Beauty. sorry for my simple English
Of course professional can be trained to recognize difference. But if you can see difference it is not mean what you can see difference in performance-Beauty
Do you see difference between green and red colors? do you see difference in performance-Beauty between green and red colors.
Do you see difference between D and E diamonds? Could you see difference in performance-Beauty between D and E colors
Both example are not same what I asked for P41 and P41.6
I just want show difference is not equal performance grade / Rejection system is not performance-Beauty grade system
John see a lot of small sharks, I see several big Sharks . Consuner can be smart enough to avoide small sharks, But he has not real chance avoid big Sharks now
In other markets Labs do not grade Beauty( safety ,cheating are standard niche for Labs.) Gemological Labs should do identification firstly. Do they do it good? No.
Better if Labs will invest more efforts todiagnostic synthetics or change Name of Business
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Yes, it has the most even, bright and pleasant look with no dark zones. That is how I pick it. Some others seem very close.
But i have not yet done all the stones in one go because I want to do it when we have the best lighting and questions - otherwise it is easy to become familiar and loose objectivity
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Date: 8/16/2008 8:18:24 AM
Author: Serg
re:I am not sure ''performance'' is the correct word here..., but if you practice enough..., I am certain you could notice a minute change in appearance! But I may be completely wrong as I never tried it myself..., but in fancies I have my ways to visualize such differences on my models!
Diagem,
May be I need change performance to Beauty. sorry for my simple English
Sorry Serg..., nothing meant by it..., I just still today dont know how to measure performance in Diamonds...
Of course professional can be trained to recognize difference. But if you can see difference it is not mean what you can see difference in performance-Beauty
I would say every difference has its own character to the individuals liking or taste...
Do you see difference between green and red colors? do you see difference in performance-Beauty between green and red colors.
Do you see difference between D and E diamonds? Could you see difference in performance-Beauty between D and E colors
Both example are not same what I asked for P41 and P41.6
thats why I said the suitable word might be appearance or minute character changes in appearance..., I think its not Beauty for certain and performance..., I have not figured that word yet!
I just want show difference is not equal performance grade / Rejection system is not performance-Beauty grade systemSerg..., I think we are on the same accord on this subject....
John see a lot of small sharks, I see several big Sharks . Consuner can be smart enough to avoide small sharks, But he has not real chance avoid big Sharks now
In other markets Labs do not grade Beauty( safety ,cheating are standard niche for Labs.) Gemological Labs should do identification firstly. Do they do it good? No.
Better if Labs will invest more efforts todiagnostic synthetics or change Name of Business
The best sentence in this thread (in my opinion...), to bad not too many understand it
Stephan
Ideal_Rock
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Hi Wink!
Do you still sell 2 brands of ideal cut diamonds (beside non branded stones)?
I'm sure they are all beautiful.
But if I remember well, one of the 2 brands won't receive AGS0 grade, the other always.
If I'm not wrong, you are sometimes wearing a blue diamond (color treated) in a ring.
A diamond with the brand that doesn't get AGS0.
You wouldn't wear a diamond that is ugly, would you?
Ellen
Super_Ideal_Rock
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Date: 8/15/2008 3:15:16 PM
Author: John Pollard
DiaGem, there is a big difference between the slightly “steep/deep” included in GIA EX which some of us ‘round here caution about - versus what lurks in commercial markets.Date: 8/15/2008 11:59:10 AM
Author: DiaGem
Pity..., I would have love to hear your definition of the connection between ''steep/deep'', Tolk specs., and beauty...Date: 8/15/2008 11:14:48 AM
Author: Ellen!
And I also don''t recall steep/deeps being referred to as frozen spit. The implication to them being mentioned, is that they are not going to be nearly as bright and beautiful as a stone cut closer to Tolk specs. But I have been around this block with Diagem before, we both know where we stand, so I won''t elaborate.
This 0.97 steep/deep faces up like a 0.75 ct should. It would receive AGS10 and GIA Poor if cut grading were present, but the only indicators on this report related to cut say “good.” How would you classify it?
While I imagine a lot of non-pros would smell this out pretty fast, consumer protection should not be limited to smart people.
*looking at depth*
Great example John. And Amen to the highlight. Many young couples going to buy an Ering have absolutely no knowledge about diamonds. They could easily end up with such a stone, because there ARE many, many jewelers out there who would sell them something like this in a heartbeat.
I was one of these people. I knew nothing. The jeweler told me NOTHING. I looked at a few rings (already set), and picked one. Did I get a great cut stone (by the standards you and I hold for great cut)? No, I got a very average cut stone. Ended up with the same thing for my first and second pairs of studs.
Then I found PS, and actually learned what a well cut diamond is, and what it should do. I now own a stunnining Ering and studs. There IS a difference, and I believe anyone could see it in a side by side comparison. The difference is night and day. People should be educated before buying, but that doesn''t always happen. Therefore, there should be protection for the consumer. Because to have someone end up with something like this is criminal, in my book.
Ellen
Super_Ideal_Rock
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I must admit, I am too.Date: 8/15/2008 4:03:35 PM
Author: Lorelei
I actually am rather partial to The Doors!Date: 8/15/2008 4:01:55 PM
Author: Wink
Date: 8/15/2008 3:43:58 PM
Author: John Pollard
By the way DG, after reading the above post will you please answer the question I’ve asked you two times already? (don’t make me come over there!)
If given a choice, blind, to take delivery of 100 IGI/EGL/GIA princess cuts or 100 AGS0 princess cuts (same carat/color/clarity) which choice do you predict would result in the collection with the highest cut quality and overall performance?
Same question with rounds.
hmmm, a little background music please, I feel a song coming on.
Come on baby light my fire, come on baby light my FIRE! The time for hesitating''s through...
That''s it baby keep those feet to the fire!
Wink
P.S. Too bad most of you are too young to remember that little bit of rock and roll.
To say otherwise,
You know that it would be untrue
You know that I would be a liar.....
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If I was to say to you....Date: 8/16/2008 11:02:10 AM
Author: Ellen
I must admit, I am too.Date: 8/15/2008 4:03:35 PM
Author: Lorelei
I actually am rather partial to The Doors!Date: 8/15/2008 4:01:55 PM
Author: Wink
Date: 8/15/2008 3:43:58 PM
Author: John Pollard
By the way DG, after reading the above post will you please answer the question I’ve asked you two times already? (don’t make me come over there!)
If given a choice, blind, to take delivery of 100 IGI/EGL/GIA princess cuts or 100 AGS0 princess cuts (same carat/color/clarity) which choice do you predict would result in the collection with the highest cut quality and overall performance?
Same question with rounds.
hmmm, a little background music please, I feel a song coming on.
Come on baby light my fire, come on baby light my FIRE! The time for hesitating's through...
That's it baby keep those feet to the fire!
Wink
P.S. Too bad most of you are too young to remember that little bit of rock and roll.
To say otherwise,
You know that it would be untrue
You know that I would be a liar.....
Baby we couldn't get much higher....
Come on baby light my fire....
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Sorry Ellen..., still dont see the connection between steep/deep and beauty!Date: 8/16/2008 11:00:45 AM
Author: Ellen
Date: 8/15/2008 3:15:16 PM
Author: John Pollard
DiaGem, there is a big difference between the slightly “steep/deep” included in GIA EX which some of us ‘round here caution about - versus what lurks in commercial markets.Date: 8/15/2008 11:59:10 AM
Author: DiaGem
Pity..., I would have love to hear your definition of the connection between ''steep/deep'', Tolk specs., and beauty...Date: 8/15/2008 11:14:48 AM
Author: Ellen!
And I also don''t recall steep/deeps being referred to as frozen spit. The implication to them being mentioned, is that they are not going to be nearly as bright and beautiful as a stone cut closer to Tolk specs. But I have been around this block with Diagem before, we both know where we stand, so I won''t elaborate.
This 0.97 steep/deep faces up like a 0.75 ct should. It would receive AGS10 and GIA Poor if cut grading were present, but the only indicators on this report related to cut say “good.” How would you classify it?
While I imagine a lot of non-pros would smell this out pretty fast, consumer protection should not be limited to smart people.
*looking at depth*
Good. Lord.
Great example John. And Amen to the highlight. Many young couples going to buy an Ering have absolutely no knowledge about diamonds. They could easily end up with such a stone, because there ARE many, many jewelers out there who would sell them something like this in a heartbeat.
I was one of these people. I knew nothing. The jeweler told me NOTHING. I looked at a few rings (already set), and picked one. Did I get a great cut stone (by the standards you and I hold for great cut)? No, I got a very average cut stone. Ended up with the same thing for my first and second pairs of studs.
Then I found PS, and actually learned what a well cut diamond is, and what it should do. I now own a stunnining Ering and studs. There IS a difference, and I believe anyone could see it in a side by side comparison. The difference is night and day. People should be educated before buying, but that doesn''t always happen. Therefore, there should be protection for the consumer. Because to have someone end up with something like this is criminal, in my book.
Showing radical examples is the easy way out (always was
It might be that this Diamond is not to your "performance" standards or even "cut" standards..., but I guess I still have to learn how to measure performance
And thank god we dont live by your book
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Date: 8/16/2008 9:35:49 AM
Author: QueenMum
Hi Wink!
Do you still sell 2 brands of ideal cut diamonds (beside non branded stones)?
I''m sure they are all beautiful.
But if I remember well, one of the 2 brands won''t receive AGS0 grade, the other always.
If I''m not wrong, you are sometimes wearing a blue diamond (color treated) in a ring.
A diamond with the brand that doesn''t get AGS0.
You wouldn''t wear a diamond that is ugly, would you?
I proudly sold EightStars for years and still proudly wear my treated blue EightStar diamond that I had recut from a larger stone. Many of the EightStar diamonds would in fact get the AGS 0 grade and the rest would get a 1 or 2 for polish, physical symmetry or perhaps from painting deemed excessive in the AGS system, but I believe that most of them would still receive an AGS 0 light performance grade. I can not know that for sure since they are graded by GIA (I believe).
I recently decided that I could no longer consider myself an EightStar dealer as I have become completely dedicated to the Infinity product and did not want to remain a dealer just to lock up my geographic area. I informed Richard von Sternberg of this and he agreed that we should remain friends but sever our dealer relationship.
Well over 90% of the diamonds that I sell every year are now from Infinity with an occasional gap filled here and there with another product, so yes, you could say I was a pretty dedicated Infinity dealer. I tend to be intensely loyal, it is one of my strengths and one of my weaknesses.
Some of you may remember that I was once thrown off a now basically dormant board for the egregious sin of being an EightStar dealer when the owner of the board capriciously decided to ban all EightStar dealers for what ever his misguided thinking was.
When I called him to ask what the heck he informed me that I was making a LOT more money from another product than I would ever make selling EightStars and that all I had to do was to quit EightStar to be reinstated. I told him I would never be able to reinstate myself with the guy I looked at shaving every morning if I quit EightStar to make him happy.
Richard von Sternberg called me to let me know he would not be offended if I quit EightStar to maintain my other business and I told him that I preferred to be able to shave in the morning, no matter what the affect on my business. It nearly cost me all of my business.
It was the right thing to do.
I had a long and friendly relationship with Richard and his family and EightStar. I will continue to have a friendship with Richard and his family and I will continue to know that the EightStar is a great product, it is just no longer my product.
So to answer your question. No, I would not wear a diamond that was ugly to me.
Wink
Ellen
Super_Ideal_Rock
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That''s because there isn''t much of one.Date: 8/16/2008 11:36:12 AM
Author: DiaGem
Sorry Ellen..., still dont see the connection between steep/deep and beauty!Date: 8/16/2008 11:00:45 AM
Author: Ellen
Date: 8/15/2008 3:15:16 PM
Author: John Pollard
DiaGem, there is a big difference between the slightly “steep/deep” included in GIA EX which some of us ‘round here caution about - versus what lurks in commercial markets.Date: 8/15/2008 11:59:10 AM
Author: DiaGem
Pity..., I would have love to hear your definition of the connection between ''steep/deep'', Tolk specs., and beauty...Date: 8/15/2008 11:14:48 AM
Author: Ellen!
And I also don''t recall steep/deeps being referred to as frozen spit. The implication to them being mentioned, is that they are not going to be nearly as bright and beautiful as a stone cut closer to Tolk specs. But I have been around this block with Diagem before, we both know where we stand, so I won''t elaborate.
This 0.97 steep/deep faces up like a 0.75 ct should. It would receive AGS10 and GIA Poor if cut grading were present, but the only indicators on this report related to cut say “good.” How would you classify it?
While I imagine a lot of non-pros would smell this out pretty fast, consumer protection should not be limited to smart people.
*looking at depth*
Good. Lord.
Great example John. And Amen to the highlight. Many young couples going to buy an Ering have absolutely no knowledge about diamonds. They could easily end up with such a stone, because there ARE many, many jewelers out there who would sell them something like this in a heartbeat.
I was one of these people. I knew nothing. The jeweler told me NOTHING. I looked at a few rings (already set), and picked one. Did I get a great cut stone (by the standards you and I hold for great cut)? No, I got a very average cut stone. Ended up with the same thing for my first and second pairs of studs.
Then I found PS, and actually learned what a well cut diamond is, and what it should do. I now own a stunnining Ering and studs. There IS a difference, and I believe anyone could see it in a side by side comparison. The difference is night and day. People should be educated before buying, but that doesn''t always happen. Therefore, there should be protection for the consumer. Because to have someone end up with something like this is criminal, in my book.
Showing radical examples is the easy way out (always was)..., but it still doesnt make this specific Diamond not a beautiful one (especially not via papers and numbers!)...
It might be that this Diamond is not to your ''performance'' standards or even ''cut'' standards..., but I guess I still have to learn how to measure performance..., cut wise..., its all based on personal preference..., and everyone has his/hers own taste!
And thank god we dont live by your book! I would probably have ended up on a life sentence according to your book!
You want to find this stone beautiful, that''s great. But people should know what they are doing before deeming such a stone beautiful. They should know what an AGS0, or any very well cut stone looks like, to truly compare cut/beauty. And if they don''t know, I think it''s wise to err on the side of caution.
I have bit my tongue more than once with you about rolling the eyes at me. You don''t do that with the men on here, so am I to assume I''m special or something?
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Date: 8/16/2008 11:36:12 AM
Author: DiaGem
Sorry Ellen..., still dont see the connection between steep/deep and beauty!Date: 8/16/2008 11:00:45 AM
Author: Ellen
Date: 8/15/2008 3:15:16 PM
Author: John Pollard
Date: 8/15/2008 11:59:10 AM
Author: DiaGem
Pity..., I would have love to hear your definition of the connection between ''steep/deep'', Tolk specs., and beauty...Date: 8/15/2008 11:14:48 AM
Author: Ellen!
And I also don''t recall steep/deeps being referred to as frozen spit. The implication to them being mentioned, is that they are not going to be nearly as bright and beautiful as a stone cut closer to Tolk specs. But I have been around this block with Diagem before, we both know where we stand, so I won''t elaborate.
DiaGem, there is a big difference between the slightly “steep/deep†included in GIA EX which some of us ‘round here caution about - versus what lurks in commercial markets.
This 0.97 steep/deep faces up like a 0.75 ct should. It would receive AGS10 and GIA Poor if cut grading were present, but the only indicators on this report related to cut say “good.†How would you classify it?
While I imagine a lot of non-pros would smell this out pretty fast, consumer protection should not be limited to smart people.
*looking at depth*
Good. Lord.
Great example John. And Amen to the highlight. Many young couples going to buy an Ering have absolutely no knowledge about diamonds. They could easily end up with such a stone, because there ARE many, many jewelers out there who would sell them something like this in a heartbeat.
I was one of these people. I knew nothing. The jeweler told me NOTHING. I looked at a few rings (already set), and picked one. Did I get a great cut stone (by the standards you and I hold for great cut)? No, I got a very average cut stone. Ended up with the same thing for my first and second pairs of studs.
Then I found PS, and actually learned what a well cut diamond is, and what it should do. I now own a stunnining Ering and studs. There IS a difference, and I believe anyone could see it in a side by side comparison. The difference is night and day. People should be educated before buying, but that doesn''t always happen. Therefore, there should be protection for the consumer. Because to have someone end up with something like this is criminal, in my book.
Showing radical examples is the easy way out (always was)..., but it still doesnt make this specific Diamond not a beautiful one (especially not via papers and numbers!)...
It might be that this Diamond is not to your ''performance'' standards or even ''cut'' standards..., but I guess I still have to learn how to measure performance..., cut wise..., its all based on personal preference..., and everyone has his/hers own taste!
And thank god we dont live by your book! I would probably have ended up on a life sentence according to your book!
RE: It might be that this Diamond is not to your ''performance'' standards or even ''cut'' standards..., but I guess I still have to learn how to measure performance
I would be happy to put this one carat next to one of Paul''s one carats in multiple light environments and let 100,000 unbiased observers look at them and decide the best and the worst diamond. I would real surprised if the extremely deep diamond was not voted last by well over 90% of the viewers. Heck, I would bet that even if the diamond of Paul''s was two color grades lower and one of Paul''s eyecleanish I1''s. This is also assuming that the grades of the EGL paper are correct, so find our the correct grade and make Paul''s diamond two color grades lower than the real color grade, what ever it happens to be
While the likelihood of such overwhelming preference might not suit your preferences, it suits mine just fine for attempting to provide the most beautiful diamonds for my clients. (Even if the result was only 75% in favor of paul''s diamond I would be happy.)
I acknowledge and accept that they may not be the most beautiful for all, but for me they are the most beautiful for a sufficient portion of the universe of potential clients that I have that I am happy and they are happy. Those that are not I am happy for them to buy from someone else.
Wink
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- Messages
- 42,064
Ditto. And to the eyerollDate: 8/16/2008 11:49:54 AM
Author:
That's because there isn't much of one.And thank god we dont live by your book! I would probably have ended up on a life sentence according to your book!
You want to find this stone beautiful, that's great. But people should know what they are doing before deeming such a stone beautiful. They should know what an AGS0, or any very well cut stone looks like, to truly compare cut/beauty. And if they don't know, I think it's wise to err on the side of caution.
I have bit my tongue more than once with you about rolling the eyes at me. You don't do that with the men on here, so am I to assume I'm special or something?
risingsun
Ideal_Rock
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- 5,549
Ellen's "book" appears to be shared by John, Wink, Paul, and Brian. Sorry if I left anyone out. Sometimes you need a scorecard to know all the players on this type of thread. When I upgraded my diamond to an ACA, my plan was to have it set into my original shared prong setting and use my smaller stone as a pendant. When I received my ACA and compared it to the diamonds in my rings, I was
at the difference in beauty and performance. I had always thought that my rings were well cut and beautiful, but compared to the AGS 0 ACA, there was no comparison. I traded in the whole lot for a new wedding set with all AGS 0 diamonds. Not only did the ACA have the numbers, but it passed the "eye" test. If there is something wrong with that, I don't know what it would be. I'm not a professional and I do need some guidelines and parameters to help me make an informed choice. If I were buying a fancy cut, my approach would be different. I appreciate those professionals who provide timely assistance. For those looking toward the future, education is more helpful than sarcasm
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Date: 8/16/2008 12:15:38 PM
Author: Lorelei
Date: 8/16/2008 12:13:38 PM
Author: Wink
Date: 8/16/2008 11:49:54 AM
Author: Ellen
That''s because there isn''t much of one.
And another keyboard bites the dust... Coffee everywhere
* hands Sir Wink a napkin*
And Wink gratefully uses it to wipe tears from eyes, coffee through nose HURTS, while accompanied by more and more organ solos and choruses of Come on Baby light my Fire running through brain. May be hard to work much today, must go through old vinyl records and listen to full song. Will to work getting weaker...
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Date: 8/16/2008 12:17:03 PM
Author: risingsun
Ellen''s ''book'' appears to be shared by John, Wink, Paul, and Brian. Sorry if I left anyone out. Sometimes you need a scorecard to know all the players on this type of thread. When I upgraded my diamond to an ACA, my plan was to have it set into my original shared prong setting and use my smaller stone as a pendant. When I received my ACA and compared it to the diamonds in my rings, I wasat the difference in beauty and performance. I had always thought that my rings were well cut and beautiful, but compared to the AGS 0 ACA, there was no comparison. I traded in the whole lot for a new wedding set with all AGS 0 diamonds. Not only did the ACA have the numbers, but it passed the ''eye'' test. If there is something wrong with that, I don''t know what it would be. I''m not a professional and I do need some guidelines and parameters to help me make an informed choice. If I were buying a fancy cut, my approach would be different. I appreciate those professionals who provide timely assistance. For those looking toward the future, education is more helpful than sarcasm
Merci madam! Well said.
Wink
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- 42,064
Hehee! Enjoy the rest of the day in the company of Manzarek and Morrison!Date: 8/16/2008 12:20:16 PM
Author: Wink
Date: 8/16/2008 12:15:38 PM
Author: Lorelei
* hands Sir Wink a napkin*
And Wink gratefully uses it to wipe tears from eyes, coffee through nose HURTS, while accompanied by more and more organ solos and choruses of Come on Baby light my Fire running through brain. May be hard to work much today, must go through old vinyl records and listen to full song. Will to work getting weaker...
Marian,Date: 8/16/2008 12:17:03 PM
Author: risingsun
Ellen''s ''book'' appears to be shared by John, Wink, Paul, and Brian. Sorry if I left anyone out. Sometimes you need a scorecard to know all the players on this type of thread. When I upgraded my diamond to an ACA, my plan was to have it set into my original shared prong setting and use my smaller stone as a pendant. When I received my ACA and compared it to the diamonds in my rings, I wasat the difference in beauty and performance. I had always thought that my rings were well cut and beautiful, but compared to the AGS 0 ACA, there was no comparison. I traded in the whole lot for a new wedding set with all AGS 0 diamonds. Not only did the ACA have the numbers, but it passed the ''eye'' test. If there is something wrong with that, I don''t know what it would be. I''m not a professional and I do need some guidelines and parameters to help me make an informed choice. If I were buying a fancy cut, my approach would be different. I appreciate those professionals who provide timely assistance. For those looking toward the future, education is more helpful than sarcasm
You did it, You did comparison , you received first step of real education.
Now you know difference between good and very good diamonds.
You received a lot of positive emotion because your new diamond is better( not only because this diamond is AGS0 ACA, Ideal,..)
Thank you very much for post and experience .
Do you want continue your education or stop it?
Do you prefer what other consumer will receive real education too or just BrainWashing about Ideal( real Ideal) cut?
Consumer education is very important.
I do not think what Brand recognition is consumer education
You received education after you bought diamond? Is it right way? I think consumer should receive education before he buy diamond.
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- May 3, 2001
- Messages
- 7,516
I agree and that is what I like to do. It is what John likes to do.
I admit to "some" bias as to what I think the education will lead to.
I am proud to do so.
I will also be proud to offer new solutions such as you and Storm are working towards when and if they happen.
Wink
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