our own John Pollard in a AGS podcast advertisement

[WinkHPD]

Date: 8/15/2008 6:03:48 PM
Author: DiaGem
Wink..., if you only know a fraction of my production/work..., you would probably throw them all in the safe and take the month off...

Thats the beauty of this industry..., I market beautiful Diamonds that you would probably not know what to do with them or where to even start...

And yes..., I am surprised at John

I like many of the older style cuts and enjoy them for their type of beauty, I just do not want to sell a modern cut that looks like crap!

You can not possibly tell me that lifeless lumps of crystallized carbon should not be outed before they are shipped?

Well of course you can, but can you REALLY expect me to believe it or to believe that you are serious?

I simply don''t get why you think it is wrong of AGS to give us this wonderful tool and the wonderfully beautiful diamonds that have come from the cutters because of it.

I get that you like the older cuts, I have NO problem with that at all. I just don''t get why you think we should stay in the stone age with the modern cuts and all the crooks that are trying sell swindle cut stones to the public.

Going home now, it has been a long week and I have to come back in the morning.

Wink

 

[John P]

Date: 8/15/2008 4:05:55 PM
Author: Serg

Date: 8/15/2008 3:19:10 PM
Author: John Pollard
Another example: A 1ct that faces up at 6.25mm.

Should someone pay a 1ct price for it?
Do you trust all jewelers to say “Although this says 1ct it will never look like a 1ct.”

It’s predicted as AGS8 in light performance. GIA would give it Good. IGI gives it ‘Very Good.’

John,

Cut grade( performance grade) is not necessary here. Spread is more adequate and correct instrument for this problem
Same for most other your examples

Sergey, you are making my point. New consumers don’t know to look at spread/weight ratio. Many new shoppers think all 1ct diamonds will look the same size. It''s necessary to protect them from examples like this.

Part of AGS grading (GIA''s too) penalizes poor spread for weight.
Another part is penalizing for durability issues.
Another part is penalizing for hidden weight (girdle).

How do you expect consumers to know these things? A responsible jeweler will tell them. But do you think all jewelers will?

...All of this is part of the consumer-protection package the Podcast discusses.

 

[John P]

Date: 8/15/2008 4:22:47 PM
Author: Serg

Re: 5) consider only round and princess cut(why did you add to base cuts what ASG can not grade, low color or clarity, small size)
I’m not sure I understand the question Sergey?

John,
AGS do cut grade for 3 cuts only.
No reason to send other cuts to AGS.
ASG and GIA have different base.

You need compare % for round+princess diamonds with good color and clarity

“GIA certificates are issued for almost all grades, clarities, sizes, cuts and makes of stones. It was the only lab that seemed to grade just about any diamond in the market.”
“As one would expect, the AGS lab issues 70 percent of the certs that accompany ideal cut diamonds.”
Re: Research methodology – a huge sample
Our analysis was extracted from the IDEX Online diamond trading network. The IDEX Online diamond database includes the inventories of industry players that account for approximately 80 percent of the global diamond trade (by $ value);
What is reason send AGS0 diamond to IDEX Online diamond trading network????

Does 80% AGS had been send to IDEX network? I do not believe

Ok. Ok Sergey. I did a search on Rap.

D color only

AGS graded rounds (all clarities and sizes) = 190 total

GIA graded rounds (all clarities and sizes) = 7000+ and likely >10,000

GIA Breakdown
D FL-IF 829
D VVS1 1000+
D VVS2 1000+
D VS1 1000+
D VS2 1000+
D SI1 1000+ (3671, see below*)
D SI2 1000+
D I1-I3 333

*A search brings up 1000 stones so I broke D SI1 into table sizes too, to see how many more listings there might be in a popular clarity. Total for GIA D SI1 = 3671

 

[John P]

Date: 8/15/2008 4:07:42 PM
Author: strmrdr

John can you ran a RAP search for AGS graded EC and SE with cut grade?

AGS = 55 total. All sizes, colors, clarities. The available scanned reports were all DQR. Five could possibly be DQD (these reported I in one of the finish categories) but they were not posted.

As a comparison, when I searched GIA Emeralds in D color only, 1000+ results came up.

 

[John P]

Date: 8/15/2008 5:14:55 PM
Author: strmrdr

As the main diamond it isn''t as nice as a tolk.
Trying to paint all diamonds with the same brush regardless of use limits innovation.

Karl, I like the demons but you are talking about innovation. I am talking about consumer protection. That’s what the Podcast is about (although it''s no longer what the thread is about).

Let me take it to this level: You can work to develop a new wonder-drug that cures many ailments. You can hope this future drug will sweep away the need for current remedies that are not to your taste. That’s fine, but you do no service to people by taking away remedies which exist now.

Or, put shortly: Do you think a world with no AGS or GIA grading standards would be better for consumers on the street?

You guys are terrific and I appreciate where you’re coming from. But casting thunderbolts in the clouds, hoping to create Nirvana is one thing. The people running around on terra firma need simple answers and protection in the marketplace now.

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 8/15/2008 6:38:50 PM
Author: John Pollard

Date: 8/15/2008 4:07:42 PM

Author: strmrdr


John can you ran a RAP search for AGS graded EC and SE with cut grade?

AGS = 55 total. All sizes, colors, clarities. The available scanned reports were all DQR. Five could possibly be DQD (these reported I in one of the finish categories) but they were not posted.


As a comparison, when I searched GIA Emeralds in D color only, 1000+ results came up.

Thanks John that is the results I expected.

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 8/15/2008 6:41:46 PM
Author: John Pollard

Date: 8/15/2008 5:14:55 PM

Author: strmrdr


As the main diamond it isn''t as nice as a tolk.

Trying to paint all diamonds with the same brush regardless of use limits innovation.

Karl, I like the demons but you are talking about innovation. I am talking about consumer protection. That’s what the Podcast is about (although it''s no longer what the thread is about).


Let me take it to this level: You can work to develop a new wonder-drug that cures many ailments. You can hope this future drug will sweep away the need for current remedies that are not to your taste. That’s fine, but you do no service to people by taking away remedies which exist now.


Or, put shortly: Do you think a world with no AGS or GIA grading standards would be better for consumers on the street?


You guys are terrific and I appreciate where you’re coming from. But casting thunderbolts in the clouds, hoping to create Nirvana is one thing. The people running around on terra firma need simple answers and protection in the marketplace now.

protection or advertisement for one type of protection?
I really don''t have a problem with it as a commercial.
Your heart is in the right place :}
Consumer protection is needed but maybe if we discuss it an answer will pop up that does both, protect consumers and encourage innovation.

 

[John P]

Date: 8/15/2008 5:46:26 PM
Author: DiaGem

But if you would make me make a decision (please dont point...

)..., I would definitely go with the GIA Princess cuts or rounds..., why??? Because I would have a greater range of beauties rather than an assembly line production of AGS 0's... (sorry, but thats the way I feel and think...)

I asked you previously what the AGS 0 Princess TD's ranges are and you replied (I think) 55-80%..., can you then explain to me why would I settle for 100 AGS 0 princess cuts that only range between 74-80% +/-???..., I maybe wrong..., but I have not seen (yet) an AGS 0 Princess with a depth of 55-65%..., I am pretty certain that at-least a significant portion of GIA Princess cuts (especially in the good - Ex range) would fall into that TD% range..., and my opinion is that I will have an assortment of prettier Diamonds than the AGS's way...

hummm..., surprised?

I might be, except you said I never ever submitted any of my work to AGS for a grading report as I dont cut neither rounds nor Princess's... >>. Since that is the case I'm not surprised.

Also, I need to apologize about something I mis-read. I thought you were asking about table sizes for princess cuts (my mistake). Table size = 55-80%. Of course, if a diamond earns the brightness, dispersion, etc values it will get the grade, even if outside those ranges provided on the cut guides. Depth with PS is part of proportions assessment (weight ratio, tilt, durability). I find no cited range. Sorry about that.

I hate to repeat myself but after learning you have no experience with AGS I will...

Date: 8/14/2008 6:26:18 PM
Author: John Pollard

(I also wish you'd take the suggestion to actually visit AGS and speak in person with the researchers there)

I remember when I was young and it was popular to like The Police. T-shirts, posters, everywhere. As a young drummer into harder rock I went against the fad, as I had only a cursory familiarity with them. I'd always change the channel - I just didn't like that other people were so into them. I made all kinds of pronouncements without doing any research...until a gal I dated insisted I learn more. I did my due diligence and they have ever been one of my favorite bands since (I am not offering to be your date, so no loco ideas!).

 

[John P]

Date: 8/15/2008 6:50:42 PM
Author: strmrdr

Consumer protection is needed but maybe if we discuss it an answer will pop up that does both, protect consumers and encourage innovation.

No argument there.
However, I have spent faaar too much time on Rap and reading this thread today!

 

[John P]

Date: 8/15/2008 5:46:26 PM
Author: DiaGem

See John...., (and I am surprised as you have learned some of of ways of thinking already...

)...., your meaning of 'highest cut quality and overall performance' is not the same as my meaning..., I would never 'take delivery' of any Princess or modern 'high performance' rounds as I wouldnt know what to do with them..., I guess I could walk into a colleague's office of mine and sell the lot as-is at the current market price..., but then your question would mean the same to me if you added 100 Kilo's of gold to the mix (or any other commodity)

...

I meant to reply here... I get you, don't you go changin' - and don’t be surprised. I’m the same guy as before. But if you will re-examine the statistics on the prior page (really look at them) I hope you understand that my position of consumer protection (pro new shoppers) is different than the position I'd take if I were shopping or trading for myself: I know how to sail these waters.

 

[John P]

I am being more assertive than usual here, but it’s because my beliefs re: consumer protection are strong...also because my name is in the stinking title of this thread!

Serg & DG,

Over these six pages I’ve brought forth my position as best I can. I understand if not everyone agrees. Thank you for expressing your opinions. I don’t share them all...I’m not finding fault, I just don’t believe you understand what consumers walking through our malls and metropolitan diamond districts are exposed to.

I invite either of you to visit me here in the US. We will have fantastic wine, diamonds and song. Once we visit a few places together I think you’ll better-understand my position on messaging consumers in a way they can use now. Today.

Regarding the Podcast; the objective was to differentiate and promote AGS-Ideal to the public. I think it does that.

I’d like to thank Strm again for the congrats. I'm away for the weekend. Cheers.

 

[diagem]

Date: 8/15/2008 6:11:39 PM
Author: Wink

Date: 8/15/2008 6:03:48 PM
Author: DiaGem
Wink..., if you only know a fraction of my production/work..., you would probably throw them all in the safe and take the month off...

Thats the beauty of this industry..., I market beautiful Diamonds that you would probably not know what to do with them or where to even start...

And yes..., I am surprised at John

I like many of the older style cuts and enjoy them for their type of beauty, I just do not want to sell a modern cut that looks like crap!

Please define older cuts for me...

You can not possibly tell me that lifeless lumps of crystallized carbon should not be outed before they are shipped?

And how many pretty ones will be outed in the process..., BTW some actually enjoy the appearance of a "lifeless lump" as you call them..., but you know that already..., right?

Well of course you can, but can you REALLY expect me to believe it or to believe that you are serious?

Thanks for the compliment..., but do you realy know me as someone with an excessive sense of humor??

I simply don''t get why you think it is wrong of AGS to give us this wonderful tool and the wonderfully beautiful diamonds that have come from the cutters because of it.

We agree on the tool..., good! Wink I have no problem with AGS or any of their products..., on the contrary..., I respect them tremendously for what they have done..., I do have a problem with the worshiping part..., if AGS is good..., that does not mean the rest is not!

I get that you like the older cuts, I have NO problem with that at all. I just don''t get why you think we should stay in the stone age with the modern cuts and all the crooks that are trying sell swindle cut stones to the public.

I asked you above to define for me "older cuts"..., as you said you are going home I decided to initiate the answer for education''s sake

...,
I believe older cuts is a huge time-span..., at least 700 + years for the types of cuts we are talking about... (from the early Indian grinding of stone facets onto the rough Diamond to recently)..., so I imagine Diamonds that were cut during the 70-80''s are falling within this time-span...

Now if we are mentioning "modern cuts"..., I guess I need to inform you that I am regularly involved in a segment which only cuts super-modern , precision hightech cuts..., with the latest technology which a lot is our Companies IP''s!!! But if I submit some of my production to AGS or any other lab''s..., they wouldnt even know where to start with grading...., except color and clarity of-course...

Going home now, it has been a long week and I have to come back in the morning.

Wink

As for my highlighted part above...

I realy must ask you to stop using this sort of wordings in your writing..., its not of any help to you, us or even the consumers...

Sure..., crooks exist in our industry..., but they exist everywhere..., I dont appreciate being associated with the good ones if all the others are bad...
Each one of us is responsible for his own reputation..., we dont have to show how bad the rest are to justify our good...

This industry is a great one..., and there is practically no other industry that can dream about adapting our business model..., thats because our business model is built on trust, integrity and a lot more....

We all are selling Diamonds (some with jewelry some without)..., and I believe the majority of us..., stock these Diamonds because we believe they are beautiful and we believe we will find the right person who will feel our products are beautiful too...

 

[diagem]

Date: 8/15/2008 7:07:52 PM
Author: John Pollard
I am being more assertive than usual here, but it’s because my beliefs re: consumer protection are strong...also because my name is in the stinking title of this thread!

Serg & DG,

Over these six pages I’ve brought forth my position as best I can. I understand if not everyone agrees. Thank you for expressing your opinions. I don’t share them all...I’m not finding fault, I just don’t believe you understand what consumers walking through our malls and metropolitan diamond districts are exposed to.

John..., there are legal ways to halt crooks..., I believe especially in the US...
But I am against stereotyping...

I invite either of you to visit me here in the US. We will have fantastic wine, diamonds and song. Once we visit a few places together I think you’ll better-understand my position on messaging consumers in a way they can use now. Today.

With pleasure..., it will be fun..., but be careful..., you might fall for a steep/deep something or other

Regarding the Podcast; the objective was to differentiate and promote AGS-Ideal to the public. I think it does that.

Good..., its a good business move for your Company and I applaud the work..., but you dont HAVE to buy an AGS quality benchmark Diamond to get the BEST Diamond..., and AGS is surely not the only way to be certain or sure you have something special...

I’d like to thank Strm again for the congrats. I''m away for the weekend. Cheers.

Have a great weekend....

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Date: 8/15/2008 2:40:54 PM
Author: John Pollard

Date: 8/14/2008 5:19:57 PM
Author: Serg


re:but less than 2% of diamonds produced are sent to AGS

John,
it is misleading statistic .

1)Please give % from same base for GIA grading
2) Lets consider %from value( not from quantity)
3) is it reasonable to cut I SI AGS0?
4) Give statistic for D IF round cut
5) consider only round and princess cut( why did you add to base cuts what ASG can not grade, low color or clarity, small size )

Give more correct statistic . Will you receive same conclusion ?

And more important point.
I said ''ASG killed commercial reason to improve round cut, I mean to find better proportions ( or something like painting, stars.,.etc), better performance
You are speak about improvement cutting process to according ideal symmetry diamond according ASG rules.
It is quite different issue. Of course more and more cutters will cut according ASG0 standard( we sell more an more HP because cutters need instrument do it and control it more cheap way) .
They are doing it, they(followers) need time to adopt technology
But AGS killed Motivations for Leaders be Leaders, find something new

Do you see difference?

I do see the difference you''re speaking of, but I don''t think these goals are mutually exclusive.

1)Please give % from same base for GIA grading

IDEX published an informative article on the labs here:
http://www.idexonline.com/portal_FullMazalUbracha.asp?id=30649

According to the report (there is a pie chart halfway down) GIA has 65% and AGS 1.6% of market share. However IGI seems strangely underrepresented. Maybe their “credit card” reports, multi-grade reports or report-appraisals were not included? In any event, IGI paper for diamonds is omnipresent in US chain stores, ‘fine-jewelry’ counters at department stores and ‘direct-to-public’ type outlets. I suspect there is far more IGI paper than the IDEX report shows.

Most IGI and a lost of EGL XXX goes directly into retail stores as part of regular supply contracts, so it never appears on Rap et al. Further ALL GIA graded stones that are shipped from cutting centers to GIA labs via the low cost tax free shipping service offered by Rapaport companies are listed on Rap, even thogh many are never ever available for sale as they too are part of contractual deals. So the data from Rap is scewed - although John your IDEX data should be more a bit more accurate, but even there all these B2B''s have begun making guaranteed availability search options.


It is quite different issue. Of course more and more cutters will cut according ASG0 standard (we sell more an more HP (what is HP?) Helium Polish because cutters need instrument do it and control it more cheap way) . They are doing it, they (followers) need time to adopt technology
But AGS killed Motivations for Leaders be Leaders, find something new

A professional ray-tracer that gives values for any 3D model, allowing anyone to see how a newly designed cut compares to established benchmarks is planned if I am not mistaken, Sergey. I believe you’re very familiar with that concept!
You mean like DiamCalc, WOW, that is innovative!

John the base problem is that AGS have a set of numbers that start at zero for the attributes of Tolkowsky - there is no capacity to know outside of zero if the paprameter you have excelled at is 5%, 10%, 1000% better than tolkowsky for say fire or whatever. The scoring system indeed is flawed as better than tolk would be a negative number. So the AGS toool and system can not help in other than rejection - so as Storm works to develope step cuts, his scores for contrast and scinitllation are not given appropriate bonuses.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Date: 8/15/2008 10:50:01 AM
Author: Serg

Re: I went through a lot of suppliers and a TON of postage trying to find pretty princess cuts for my clients before the AGS cut grade came along for princess cuts. Since I am not in a major cutting center or even a nice supplier rich location (try zero in my city) it helps me greatly to know what to expect before I ever ok the postage
If I were in a city full of suppliers I could look at stones in person if I desired to. (Nowadays I just call Paul.)

Wink,

How big % of your clients could be agree wait 6 weeks him choice?

Suppose
a)you have library nice diamonds( Which you really like)
1) Round cut H&A
2) Princess AGS0
3) Cushion
4) Radiant
5) Oval
6) Pear
7) Emerald
Few others

b) You show these samples in standard Light boxes . Client do him Cut choice and inform you about acceptable clarity and color range( for example VS1-VS2, G-H), mass 1.00-1.10 ct( for example)

c) You inform special company about this order . In 2-3 days you will receive quotation ( prices for each combination color and clarity in customer range )
d) If client agree with your price he paid 20% deposit
e) In 6 weeks you will receive diamond according quotation, with Exactly same proportions what you showed to client , with manufacture clarity and color report. + full history of cutting ( rough, semicut photos and models)
f) client could send diamond to ASG for clarity and color grade and receive double price difference( between manufacture grade and AGS grade) , if AGS grade will worse



In same time Strmdr or any other can develop new cut and ask add him cut( real diamond to your library ). Strmdr will pay for sample for your library, but you will pay him fee from each sells him cut design


Could be it something “equal “?

Does anyone else think that Sergey''s idea could develop wings?
Ever since he first rasied it with me (a long time ago) I imagined a marketplace here on Pricescope where consumers (and retailers) could lodge a request, with the help of other consumers and experts, and have vendors and manufacturers bid for the order.
We could even have the files and photos of the rough diamonds made available, the option to buy the off cuts from the seelcted rough and all sorts of real fun. The possabilities are endless.
Storm (and stormlets) can help design and optimize specific appearances (for money).......etc etc


I mentioned that this is not a new idea for Sergey. I wish I could share with you how much work and investment (mostly out of Sergey''s very own pocket) has been put into realization. Not to labour the point, but AGS''s research spending pales by comparison.

 

[whatmeworry]

That''s an interesting idea because it offers cuts that are not readilly available to the public. Take my case for example. I''ve already bought AGS0 diamonds, so for the next one I''ll look for something different. That AGS8 that John posted with the 38 degree CA, that intrigues me because of the huge crown. So do the ultra-flat 25 degree CA rounds. Maybe a "real" Tolkowsky with 50% lgf and 54% table. That baby monster that Storm and DiaGem built, when does it go public? The more choices available to the public, the better.

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 8/15/2008 8:20:02 PM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)

Does anyone else think that Sergey's idea could develop wings?

Ever since he first rasied it with me (a long time ago) I imagined a marketplace here on Pricescope where consumers (and retailers) could lodge a request, with the help of other consumers and experts, and have vendors and manufacturers bid for the order.

We could even have the files and photos of the rough diamonds made available, the option to buy the off cuts from the seelcted rough and all sorts of real fun. The possabilities are endless.

Storm (and stormlets) can help design and optimize specific appearances (for money).......etc etc



I mentioned that this is not a new idea for Sergey. I wish I could share with you how much work and investment (mostly out of Sergey's very own pocket) has been put into realization. Not to labour the point, but AGS's research spending pales by comparison.

I would love to see it take off.

3 things working against it right now.

1: rough availability problems for small cutters where this will have to start.

2: the most common scanner cant handle a lot of them so getting good paper is a pain.

3: someone stealing the designs. While it is possible to defeat any diamond cut patent that is still active, who has the $100k to do so.
So the design gets posted and some crook runs out and files a patent on it.
The patent office grants it when they shouldn't because they don't have a clue and the designer gets locked out if his design or has to come up with $100k to fight.

While the 3rd I can take my chances with the first 2 are mountains.

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 8/15/2008 9:29:47 PM
Author: whatmeworry
That''s an interesting idea because it offers cuts that are not readilly available to the public. Take my case for example. I''ve already bought AGS0 diamonds, so for the next one I''ll look for something different. That AGS8 that John posted with the 38 degree CA, that intrigues me because of the huge crown. So do the ultra-flat 25 degree CA rounds. Maybe a ''real'' Tolkowsky with 50% lgf and 54% table. That baby monster that Storm and DiaGem built, when does it go public? The more choices available to the public, the better.

Problems 1 and 2 above.
btw the baby monster(4.5mm or so and under) is a separate design the one cut was the monster(5mm or so and up).

 

[Serg]

Re:Ok. Ok Sergey. I did a search on Rap.

John,

1) Does WF or Infinity publish diamonds on Rap, Idex?
2) Did you search on PS?

 

[Serg]

Strmdr,


1st and 2d are not big problems . 3d is huge problem . Solutions are different for different countries ( one for Germany, other for France) It is shame.
Most probably we will invite good copyright Lawyer for round table discussions during IDCC2. We are thinking about technical solutions for 3d problem. I do not like to open details now. ( just inform you We will try defend Designers from sharks with same level efforts Like John do it for consumers)
There are other problems
4) Light box
5) Instruments for cutters to produce clone ( exactly same shape) for any Fancy cuts. we need accuracy level better than for round H&A
5th we could solve in 1 year( most probably)
4th is real paint. It is block a lot of our research. software can not do performance grade . We can develop a lot metrics ( reasonable metrics , for my opinion much better than AGS metrics for Fire and Scintillation. we can produce a lot of cut grading systems, but we can not do performance and Taste grade. reason is simple Nobody has computer model Human brain( for average consumer or even for one particular consumer) . Even stereo Vision is problem.( it is most simplest problem what I know) ASG do not account stereo vision at all. I know several other limitation( critical limitation) for correct performance grade. Software can be used like rejection tool in developing new cuts. ( Very effective tool, but just like instrument . You need a lot of other knowledge . DC pro is not enough to develop best cut, AutoCAD is not enough to develop best House. )
AGS cut grading system is only One More rejection system, like IS, FS, H&A.. Unfortunately John do not want explain to consumers the difference between rejection tool and Performance grade system. Diamond industry has not human resource to develop software for performance grade in next 10 years. Even AGS, GIA, HRD and OctoNus and others will combine efforts we can not do it. I do not like develop one more rejection tool and be one more Shark.
It is reason why correct Light box is so important. we need give instrument for consumer comparison , And results such comparison will depends from country, age, sex, culture, time..

 

[diagem]

Date: 8/15/2008 8:16:23 PM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)

Date: 8/15/2008 2:40:54 PM
Author: John Pollard

Date: 8/14/2008 5:19:57 PM
Author: Serg



re:but less than 2% of diamonds produced are sent to AGS

John,
it is misleading statistic .

1)Please give % from same base for GIA grading
2) Lets consider %from value( not from quantity)
3) is it reasonable to cut I SI AGS0?
4) Give statistic for D IF round cut
5) consider only round and princess cut( why did you add to base cuts what ASG can not grade, low color or clarity, small size )

Give more correct statistic . Will you receive same conclusion ?

And more important point.
I said ''ASG killed commercial reason to improve round cut, I mean to find better proportions ( or something like painting, stars.,.etc), better performance
You are speak about improvement cutting process to according ideal symmetry diamond according ASG rules.
It is quite different issue. Of course more and more cutters will cut according ASG0 standard( we sell more an more HP because cutters need instrument do it and control it more cheap way) .
They are doing it, they(followers) need time to adopt technology
But AGS killed Motivations for Leaders be Leaders, find something new

Do you see difference?

I do see the difference you''re speaking of, but I don''t think these goals are mutually exclusive.

1)Please give % from same base for GIA grading

IDEX published an informative article on the labs here:
http://www.idexonline.com/portal_FullMazalUbracha.asp?id=30649

According to the report (there is a pie chart halfway down) GIA has 65% and AGS 1.6% of market share. However IGI seems strangely underrepresented. Maybe their “credit card” reports, multi-grade reports or report-appraisals were not included? In any event, IGI paper for diamonds is omnipresent in US chain stores, ‘fine-jewelry’ counters at department stores and ‘direct-to-public’ type outlets. I suspect there is far more IGI paper than the IDEX report shows.

Most IGI and a lost of EGL XXX goes directly into retail stores as part of regular supply contracts, so it never appears on Rap et al. Further ALL GIA graded stones that are shipped from cutting centers to GIA labs via the low cost tax free shipping service offered by Rapaport companies are listed on Rap, even thogh many are never ever available for sale as they too are part of contractual deals. So the data from Rap is scewed - although John your IDEX data should be more a bit more accurate, but even there all these B2B''s have begun making guaranteed availability search options.


It is quite different issue. Of course more and more cutters will cut according ASG0 standard (we sell more an more HP (what is HP?) Helium Polish because cutters need instrument do it and control it more cheap way) . They are doing it, they (followers) need time to adopt technology
But AGS killed Motivations for Leaders be Leaders, find something new

A professional ray-tracer that gives values for any 3D model, allowing anyone to see how a newly designed cut compares to established benchmarks is planned if I am not mistaken, Sergey. I believe you’re very familiar with that concept!
You mean like DiamCalc, WOW, that is innovative!

John the base problem is that AGS have a set of numbers that start at zero for the attributes of Tolkowsky - there is no capacity to know outside of zero if the paprameter you have excelled at is 5%, 10%, 1000% better than tolkowsky for say fire or whatever. The scoring system indeed is flawed as better than tolk would be a negative number. So the AGS toool and system can not help in other than rejection - so as Storm works to develope step cuts, his scores for contrast and scinitllation are not given appropriate bonuses.

RE> "...Most IGI and a lost of EGL XXX goes directly into retail stores as part of regular supply contracts, so it never appears on Rap et al. Further ALL GIA graded stones that are shipped from cutting centers to GIA labs via the low cost tax free shipping service offered by Rapaport companies are listed on Rap, even thogh many are never ever available for sale as they too are part of contractual deals. So the data from Rap is scewed - although John your IDEX data should be more a bit more accurate, but even there all these B2B''s have begun making guaranteed availability search options."

Are you certain of what you are saying??

 

[diagem]

Date: 8/15/2008 8:20:02 PM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)

Date: 8/15/2008 10:50:01 AM
Author: Serg


Re: I went through a lot of suppliers and a TON of postage trying to find pretty princess cuts for my clients before the AGS cut grade came along for princess cuts. Since I am not in a major cutting center or even a nice supplier rich location (try zero in my city) it helps me greatly to know what to expect before I ever ok the postage
If I were in a city full of suppliers I could look at stones in person if I desired to. (Nowadays I just call Paul.)

Wink,

How big % of your clients could be agree wait 6 weeks him choice?

Suppose
a)you have library nice diamonds( Which you really like)
1) Round cut H&A
2) Princess AGS0
3) Cushion
4) Radiant
5) Oval
6) Pear
7) Emerald
Few others

b) You show these samples in standard Light boxes . Client do him Cut choice and inform you about acceptable clarity and color range( for example VS1-VS2, G-H), mass 1.00-1.10 ct( for example)

c) You inform special company about this order . In 2-3 days you will receive quotation ( prices for each combination color and clarity in customer range )
d) If client agree with your price he paid 20% deposit
e) In 6 weeks you will receive diamond according quotation, with Exactly same proportions what you showed to client , with manufacture clarity and color report. + full history of cutting ( rough, semicut photos and models)
f) client could send diamond to ASG for clarity and color grade and receive double price difference( between manufacture grade and AGS grade) , if AGS grade will worse




In same time Strmdr or any other can develop new cut and ask add him cut( real diamond to your library ). Strmdr will pay for sample for your library, but you will pay him fee from each sells him cut design



Could be it something “equal “?

Does anyone else think that Sergey''s idea could develop wings?

Sure it can...., and I think it exists already in some model or other..., and will naturally become more available in the future...

Ever since he first rasied it with me (a long time ago) I imagined a marketplace here on Pricescope where consumers (and retailers) could lodge a request, with the help of other consumers and experts, and have vendors and manufacturers bid for the order.
We could even have the files and photos of the rough diamonds made available, the option to buy the off cuts from the seelcted rough and all sorts of real fun. The possabilities are endless.

Storm (and stormlets) can help design and optimize specific appearances (for money).......etc etc


I mentioned that this is not a new idea for Sergey. I wish I could share with you how much work and investment (mostly out of Sergey''s very own pocket) has been put into realization. Not to labour the point, but AGS''s research spending pales by comparison.

But what will all the Laboratories do

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Date: 8/16/2008 2:03:22 AM
Author: DiaGem


RE> ''...Most IGI and a lost of EGL XXX goes directly into retail stores as part of regular supply contracts, so it never appears on Rap et al. Further ALL GIA graded stones that are shipped from cutting centers to GIA labs via the low cost tax free shipping service offered by Rapaport companies are listed on Rap, even thogh many are never ever available for sale as they too are part of contractual deals. So the data from Rap is scewed - although John your IDEX data should be more a bit more accurate, but even there all these B2B''s have begun making guaranteed availability search options.''

Are you certain of what you are saying??

90% certain for stones shipped to GIA by Rap from Tel Aviv, Mumbai and I think Antwerp.
Ask around DG

Of course companies can send their own stones, but in India for example Rap does this in a bonded arrangement so there are no taxes, bt the goods must be returned to the country of origin.

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 8/16/2008 1:55:21 AM
Author: Serg
Strmdr,



1st and 2d are not big problems . 3d is huge problem . Solutions are different for different countries ( one for Germany, other for France) It is shame.

Most probably we will invite good copyright Lawyer for round table discussions during IDCC2. We are thinking about technical solutions for 3d problem. I do not like to open details now. ( just inform you We will try defend Designers from sharks with same level efforts Like John do it for consumers)

There are other problems

4) Light box

5) Instruments for cutters to produce clone ( exactly same shape) for any Fancy cuts. we need accuracy level better than for round H&A

5th we could solve in 1 year( most probably)

4th is real paint. It is block a lot of our research. software can not do performance grade . We can develop a lot metrics ( reasonable metrics , for my opinion much better than AGS metrics for Fire and Scintillation. we can produce a lot of cut grading systems, but we can not do performance and Taste grade. reason is simple Nobody has computer model Human brain( for average consumer or even for one particular consumer) . Even stereo Vision is problem.( it is most simplest problem what I know) ASG do not account stereo vision at all. I know several other limitation( critical limitation) for correct performance grade. Software can be used like rejection tool in developing new cuts. ( Very effective tool, but just like instrument . You need a lot of other knowledge . DC pro is not enough to develop best cut, AutoCAD is not enough to develop best House. )

AGS cut grading system is only One More rejection system, like IS, FS, H&A.. Unfortunately John do not want explain to consumers the difference between rejection tool and Performance grade system. Diamond industry has not human resource to develop software for performance grade in next 10 years. Even AGS, GIA, HRD and OctoNus and others will combine efforts we can not do it. I do not like develop one more rejection tool and be one more Shark.

It is reason why correct Light box is so important. we need give instrument for consumer comparison , And results such comparison will depends from country, age, sex, culture, time..

Serg, I do not see 5 as a huge issue, what it takes is a designer to work hand in hand with the cutter at each step and let the rough evolve in the proper direction into the final diamond.
It is much more an issue with mass production than one at a time production.

I dislike light boxes because no matter how good it is it can not mimic the real world in enough conditions to be the answer.
Light boxes and industry observers led to the messy GIA cut grade system.

Diamond design is going to remain 3 parts "that looks right" and 1 part skill and 1 part tools.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Date: 8/16/2008 2:41:25 AM
Author: strmrdr

Date: 8/16/2008 1:55:21 AM
Author: Serg

4th is real paint. It is block a lot of our research. software can not do performance grade . We can develop a lot metrics ( reasonable metrics , for my opinion much better than AGS metrics for Fire and Scintillation. we can produce a lot of cut grading systems, but we can not do performance and Taste grade. reason is simple Nobody has computer model Human brain( for average consumer or even for one particular consumer) . Even stereo Vision is problem.( it is most simplest problem what I know) ASG do not account stereo vision at all. I know several other limitation( critical limitation) for correct performance grade. Software can be used like rejection tool in developing new cuts. ( Very effective tool, but just like instrument . You need a lot of other knowledge . DC pro is not enough to develop best cut, AutoCAD is not enough to develop best House. )

AGS cut grading system is only One More rejection system, like IS, FS, H&A.. Unfortunately John do not want explain to consumers the difference between rejection tool and Performance grade system. Diamond industry has not human resource to develop software for performance grade in next 10 years. Even AGS, GIA, HRD and OctoNus and others will combine efforts we can not do it. I do not like develop one more rejection tool and be one more Shark.

It is reason why correct Light box is so important. we need give instrument for consumer comparison , And results such comparison will depends from country, age, sex, culture, time..

I dislike light boxes because no matter how good it is it can not mimic the real world in enough conditions to be the answer.
Light boxes and industry observers led to the messy GIA cut grade system.

Perhaps you would like to fly over and help me slash my wrists then Karl?

I hope and believe we will solve this problem, and with some good minds and clever suggestions, and who knows, we may even redesign lighting in jewellery stores and save the world from rising sea levels at the same time

 

[Serg]

Karl,
Re: I dislike light boxes because no matter how good it is it can not mimic the real world in enough conditions to be the answer.
Light boxes and industry observers led to the messy GIA cut grade system
Who proof it ?
Did GIA proof it? ( what Light box can not mimic real light condition)
It was just one unsuccessful attempt . We want try onoe more time
If we can not do it for 1m*1m*1m light box, we will do it for 3m*3m*3m light box
It is hard task do correct light box, but we need solve this problem

Re: takes is a designer to work hand in hand with the cutter at each step and let the rough evolve in the proper direction into the final diamond.

This approach has a lot of limitation to find your consumer niche

Cutter experience is advantage and disadvantage in same time for such approach . This approach will give more faster result, but you will lost a lot of opportunity

Main weakness diamond industry come from China Wall between consumer community and manufactures

Labs added a lot of bricks in this Wall

I want involve consumers directly to Production Cycle . ( I believe what consumer community is more wise( and independent of course than Labs and cutters communities together . Consumer community is much bigger and could increase speed cut evolution significantly )

re:it is it can not mimic the real world in enough conditions to be the answer.


Light boxes and industry observers led to the messy GIA cut grade system

Karl,

In real world light environment did YOU see performance difference P41Cr34.5 and P41.6 Cr34.5?

Garry,
Do you see performance difference ( if I mix stones, slightly change table size to not avoid possibility recognize pavilion angle without scan report) ?
without IS, and other rejection tools. which diamond is better for stereoscopic Vision ?
same question for P41.2 and 41.4
I do not see real scientifically research here from both sides.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Date: 8/16/2008 4:04:04 AM
Author: Serg


In real world light environment did YOU see performance difference P41Cr34.5 and P41.6 Cr34.5?

Garry,
Do you see performance difference ( if I mix stones, slightly change table size to not avoid possibility recognize pavilion angle without scan report) ?
without IS, and other rejection tools. which diamond is better for stereoscopic Vision ?

same question for P41.2 and 41.4
I do not see real scientifically research here from both sides.

I can pick the difference between tokowsky MSS stone and most of the other stones under the lighting I prefer.
I think we can model that lighting at 1/6th scale

 

[diagem]

Date: 8/16/2008 2:31:33 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)

Date: 8/16/2008 2:03:22 AM
Author: DiaGem


RE> ''...Most IGI and a lost of EGL XXX goes directly into retail stores as part of regular supply contracts, so it never appears on Rap et al. Further ALL GIA graded stones that are shipped from cutting centers to GIA labs via the low cost tax free shipping service offered by Rapaport companies are listed on Rap, even thogh many are never ever available for sale as they too are part of contractual deals. So the data from Rap is scewed - although John your IDEX data should be more a bit more accurate, but even there all these B2B''s have begun making guaranteed availability search options.''

Are you certain of what you are saying??

90% certain for stones shipped to GIA by Rap from Tel Aviv, Mumbai and I think Antwerp.
Ask around DG

Of course companies can send their own stones, but in India for example Rap does this in a bonded arrangement so there are no taxes, bt the goods must be returned to the country of origin.

Garry..., you certain about "listed on Rap"? with no owners consent?

 

[diagem]

Date: 8/16/2008 3:57:26 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)

Date: 8/16/2008 2:41:25 AM
Author: strmrdr

Date: 8/16/2008 1:55:21 AM
Author: Serg


4th is real paint. It is block a lot of our research. software can not do performance grade . We can develop a lot metrics ( reasonable metrics , for my opinion much better than AGS metrics for Fire and Scintillation. we can produce a lot of cut grading systems, but we can not do performance and Taste grade. reason is simple Nobody has computer model Human brain( for average consumer or even for one particular consumer) . Even stereo Vision is problem.( it is most simplest problem what I know) ASG do not account stereo vision at all. I know several other limitation( critical limitation) for correct performance grade. Software can be used like rejection tool in developing new cuts. ( Very effective tool, but just like instrument . You need a lot of other knowledge . DC pro is not enough to develop best cut, AutoCAD is not enough to develop best House. )

AGS cut grading system is only One More rejection system, like IS, FS, H&A.. Unfortunately John do not want explain to consumers the difference between rejection tool and Performance grade system. Diamond industry has not human resource to develop software for performance grade in next 10 years. Even AGS, GIA, HRD and OctoNus and others will combine efforts we can not do it. I do not like develop one more rejection tool and be one more Shark.

It is reason why correct Light box is so important. we need give instrument for consumer comparison , And results such comparison will depends from country, age, sex, culture, time..

I dislike light boxes because no matter how good it is it can not mimic the real world in enough conditions to be the answer.
Light boxes and industry observers led to the messy GIA cut grade system.

Perhaps you would like to fly over and help me slash my wrists then Karl?

I hope and believe we will solve this problem, and with some good minds and clever suggestions, and who knows, we may even redesign lighting in jewellery stores and save the world from rising sea levels at the same time

Keep the profile color grading in tact with the other innovations at first at least..., maybe in due time the move (away from profile grading) will become a natural move....

 

[diagem]

Date: 8/16/2008 4:04:04 AM
Author: Serg


Karl,

Re: I dislike light boxes because no matter how good it is it can not mimic the real world in enough conditions to be the answer.
Light boxes and industry observers led to the messy GIA cut grade system

Who proof it ?
Did GIA proof it? ( what Light box can not mimic real light condition)
It was just one unsuccessful attempt . We want try onoe more time
If we can not do it for 1m*1m*1m light box, we will do it for 3m*3m*3m light box
It is hard task do correct light box, but we need solve this problem

Re: takes is a designer to work hand in hand with the cutter at each step and let the rough evolve in the proper direction into the final diamond.

Tooling''s are a problem within the industry..., but if you import some idea''s from outside the industry..., you will be surprised at how simple sometimes problems can be solved!

This approach has a lot of limitation to find your consumer niche

Cutter experience is advantage and disadvantage in same time for such approach . This approach will give more faster result, but you will lost a lot of opportunity

I fully agree..., Diamonds cutters are great creatures of habit..., there are so many I know which preferred to leave the industry rather than cope with the new cutting procedures..., like reaching EX polish and symmetry etc...


Main weakness diamond industry come from China Wall between consumer community and manufactures

Its called communications problems..., and it is all along the supply chain..., from the diggers to- rough buyers to- manufacturers to- wholesalers to- retailers to- the final consumer destination! But the largest gap in communications is (in my opinion) between the wholesaler-retailer or vendor/client relationships. Especially when it comes to the designers!

Labs added a lot of bricks in this Wall And so did Lab worshipers....[:saint:]

I want involve consumers directly to Production Cycle . ( I believe what consumer community is more wise( and independent of course than Labs and cutters communities together . Consumer community is much bigger and could increase speed cut evolution significantly )

I fully agree with you..., but that is in my opinion a new profession which doesnt exist in our industry just yet...

re:it is it can not mimic the real world in enough conditions to be the answer.


Light boxes and industry observers led to the messy GIA cut grade system

Karl,

In real world light environment did YOU see performance difference P41Cr34.5 and P41.6 Cr34.5?

Garry,
Do you see performance difference ( if I mix stones, slightly change table size to not avoid possibility recognize pavilion angle without scan report) ?
without IS, and other rejection tools. which diamond is better for stereoscopic Vision ?

I am not sure "performance" is the correct word here..., but if you practice enough..., I am certain you could notice a minute change in appearance! But I may be completely wrong as I never tried it myself..., but in fancies I have my ways to visualize such differences on my models!


same question for P41.2 and 41.4
I do not see real scientifically research here from both sides.