Re: Bad diamonds and irresponsible labs are not block Innovation . Very often Bad diamond is just step to something new what could be nice
Paul is likely the only one here who can answer that but he would likely point you to this article first:
I read it in the past and agreed with it as this explanation can work on more fancy shapes than just the Princess cuts...
55-80%. But it depends on overall configuration, of course.Date: 8/14/2008 5:44:12 PM
Author: DiaGem
John..., what are the TD% tolerances of AGS to stay within the AGS0 Princess cut scope??Date: 8/14/2008 5:32:07 PM
Author: John Pollard
DG, can you elaborate? What is it, exactly, that you disagree with in terms of the AGS grading metric?
I have been long agreeing with Serg on what AGS identifies as the 'best'..., or as you prefer 'real ideal'...
Also, can you answer this question (from above):
John..., I understand the fact that AGS offered you a stage..., but I wouldnt be caught wording the following as I 'strongly' disagree with the following words you said: (maybe not the exact words but....)
-AGS Ideal, the BEST diamond a consumer can buy...
-...new quality benchmark for beauty...
-...ONLY WAY to be sure or certain you have something special ... stick with AGS Ideal...
Common John..., you know my thoughts on Diamonds beauty already...
If given a choice, blind, to take delivery of 100 IGI/EGL/GIA princess cuts or 100 AGS0 princess cuts (same carat/color/clarity) which choice do you predict would result in the collection with the highest cut quality and overall performance? Same question with rounds.
Date: 8/14/2008 6:26:18 PM
Author: John Pollard
55-80%. But it depends on overall configuration, of course.Date: 8/14/2008 5:44:12 PM
Author: DiaGem
John..., what are the TD% tolerances of AGS to stay within the AGS0 Princess cut scope??Date: 8/14/2008 5:32:07 PM
Author: John Pollard
DG, can you elaborate? What is it, exactly, that you disagree with in terms of the AGS grading metric?
I have been long agreeing with Serg on what AGS identifies as the 'best'..., or as you prefer 'real ideal'...
Also, can you answer this question (from above):
John..., I understand the fact that AGS offered you a stage..., but I wouldnt be caught wording the following as I 'strongly' disagree with the following words you said: (maybe not the exact words but....)
-AGS Ideal, the BEST diamond a consumer can buy...
-...new quality benchmark for beauty...
-...ONLY WAY to be sure or certain you have something special ... stick with AGS Ideal...
Common John..., you know my thoughts on Diamonds beauty already...
If given a choice, blind, to take delivery of 100 IGI/EGL/GIA princess cuts or 100 AGS0 princess cuts (same carat/color/clarity) which choice do you predict would result in the collection with the highest cut quality and overall performance? Same question with rounds.
Of course..., but did anyone ever calculated statistics on how many AGS 0 princess cuts are cut to 55-60% vs 75-80%? I think the numbers would surprise us all
Regarding disagreement; my first post in this thread explained that this format was different than an extended discussion like we'd have here. People on PS have the benefit of web 2.0 and days of interaction. The podcast is one-way and just hopes to stop people from making bad decisions.
Ok..., Robin Hood, but I am still hopeful that not ALL jewelers are deceivers..., maybe I am naive..., but will not give up on the luxury called "trust" in this industry...
If you have a solution to help shoppers preparing to buy terribly cut commercial goods today please let me know. If you don't I think those steered towards the best cut grading systems we currently have in major markets will be thankful for the advice.
(I also wish you'd take the suggestion to actually visit AGS and speak in person with the researchers there)
Sorry, I have been very busy and have not had a chance to respond to this today.
Wow, thank you for your kind words! There are a LOT of good vendors around, it can just be hard to find us sometimes because of the vendors you speak of trying so hard to confuse you.
I sell both. If GIA had a cut grading system that I believed in as well as AGS then I probably would use GIA, but unfortunately they do not. I am a firm believer that AGS has a system that better quantifies what Paul cuts, and I am glad that he uses them, even though they would be easier to sell with GIA papers.
I am not Storm and I would not deign to answer for him, but for me it is easy. The AGS 0 princess cuts will on average be MUCH more beautiful to the eye than the average cut "stuff" that you will get with the other labs. I have seen thousands of princess cuts, and most of them were woefully wasted use of rough. When they are a beauty, wow! And yes, I have seen many WOW princess cuts with other lab reports than AGS, just not consistently.
On the vast improvement in cut quality that has happened over the past decade, I believe Pricescope and the experts and advanced consumers here have played as important a role as any other player.
DiaGem, this comment really helps to shed light on why you may find the line of thinking in this thread difficult.Date: 8/14/2008 6:31:53 PM
Author: DiaGem
Date: 8/14/2008 6:26:18 PM
Author: John Pollard
55-80%. But it depends on overall configuration, of course.Date: 8/14/2008 5:44:12 PM
Author: DiaGem
John..., what are the TD% tolerances of AGS to stay within the AGS0 Princess cut scope??Date: 8/14/2008 5:32:07 PM
Author: John Pollard
DG, can you elaborate? What is it, exactly, that you disagree with in terms of the AGS grading metric?
I have been long agreeing with Serg on what AGS identifies as the ''best''..., or as you prefer ''real ideal''...
Also, can you answer this question (from above):
John..., I understand the fact that AGS offered you a stage..., but I wouldnt be caught wording the following as I ''strongly'' disagree with the following words you said: (maybe not the exact words but....)
-AGS Ideal, the BEST diamond a consumer can buy...
-...new quality benchmark for beauty...
-...ONLY WAY to be sure or certain you have something special ... stick with AGS Ideal...
Common John..., you know my thoughts on Diamonds beauty already...
If given a choice, blind, to take delivery of 100 IGI/EGL/GIA princess cuts or 100 AGS0 princess cuts (same carat/color/clarity) which choice do you predict would result in the collection with the highest cut quality and overall performance? Same question with rounds.
Of course..., but did anyone ever calculated statistics on how many AGS 0 princess cuts are cut to 55-60% vs 75-80%? I think the numbers would surprise us all
Regarding disagreement; my first post in this thread explained that this format was different than an extended discussion like we''d have here. People on PS have the benefit of web 2.0 and days of interaction. The podcast is one-way and just hopes to stop people from making bad decisions.
Ok..., Robin Hood, but I am still hopeful that not ALL jewelers are deceivers..., maybe I am naive..., but will not give up on the luxury called ''trust'' in this industry...
If you have a solution to help shoppers preparing to buy terribly cut commercial goods today please let me know. If you don''t I think those steered towards the best cut grading systems we currently have in major markets will be thankful for the advice.
(I also wish you''d take the suggestion to actually visit AGS and speak in person with the researchers there)
I am sorry..., but I read this thread and it sounds to me more like an AGS "worship"!Date: 8/14/2008 11:36:25 PM
Author: Allison D.
DiaGem, this comment really helps to shed light on why you may find the line of thinking in this thread difficult.Date: 8/14/2008 6:31:53 PM
Author: DiaGem
Date: 8/14/2008 6:26:18 PM
Author: John Pollard
55-80%. But it depends on overall configuration, of course.
Of course..., but did anyone ever calculated statistics on how many AGS 0 princess cuts are cut to 55-60% vs 75-80%? I think the numbers would surprise us all
Regarding disagreement; my first post in this thread explained that this format was different than an extended discussion like we''d have here. People on PS have the benefit of web 2.0 and days of interaction. The podcast is one-way and just hopes to stop people from making bad decisions.
Ok..., Robin Hood, but I am still hopeful that not ALL jewelers are deceivers..., maybe I am naive..., but will not give up on the luxury called ''trust'' in this industry...
If you have a solution to help shoppers preparing to buy terribly cut commercial goods today please let me know. If you don''t I think those steered towards the best cut grading systems we currently have in major markets will be thankful for the advice.
(I also wish you''d take the suggestion to actually visit AGS and speak in person with the researchers there)
Well..., I hope I still know how to read English....
You come from the approach of ''not all jewelers are deceivers'', which seems as though you feel John is suggesting the opposite.
I honestly don''t think that''s true.
Some of these ''jewelers'' salespeople don''t actually *know* enough about their own products to even grasp that they are misinformed. It''s not necessarily always a willful attempt at deception, but often rather a lack of knowledge. They suffer from tutelage at the feet of others who don''t know much more about well-cut stones because they don''t sell them.
Well..., I wish the spirit of this thread or its language was more in the spirit of your explanation..., but I would suggest you re read this thread.
Your definition of ''jeweler'' would imply that all jewelers are knowledgable folks in the industry with lots of knowledge and experience. That''s not the reality in the marketplace....at least not in this country.
Beyond that, the goal of most local retail outfitters is to sell what they have. Since they don''t have an abundance of phenominal goods available to them, it''s not a priority to learn about better goods. It''s not a priority to educate customers if that education means they now won''t buy from you because your goods aren''t top-make.
Very simply put, if you''re a Volkswagon salesman and not necessarily a leader in your industry, it''s likely not in your best interest to educate clients so that they understand every other car on the market and where your VW option falls in that pecking order. It''s likely not in your interest to understand how the engine of a Ferrari works, either, since that information does nothing to help you sell a VW. In fact, if you''re the car salesman, you don''t even necessarily want to know the mechanics of how to actually fix your own brand....you only need enough information to help potential buyers understand why your VW brand might fit their needs. Being self-interested doesn''t necessarily mean being willfully deceitful; more often it means being unconcerned with trivia that doesn''t help your own cause.
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder!!!
Re:With such a small footprint I don''t think AGS could ''kill'' anything. You should be more concerned with GIA. Have you followed manufacturing trends? More and more producers are going after the steep/deep end of GIA EX rounds. Unlike cutters who target AGS0, some of these GIA EX are not even good performers. So, if you''re chasing manufacturer motives the steep/deep end of GIA is a more worthy target.
Wink,
I think it is problem for market because ASG has not cut grade system for Any cut.
Of course beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and it is possible that some people prefer lifeless lumps of crystallized carbon to bright sparkly things of incredible beauty.Date: 8/15/2008 2:18:32 AM
Author: DiaGem
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder!!!
AGS might tell you which Diamond is cut better or precisely to their standards or research but it has nothing to do with beauty!
AGS can point out symmetry accuracy, measured light performance etc..., etc..., and sometimes people even take this as a sign of beautybut beauty is much wider than any AGS top cut grade or even mediocre cut grade!
You might believe commoditizing of Diamonds is good..., but some (including me) don''t!
I read on this thread lines such as GIA ex-ex (steep/deep) rounds are called ''frozen spit''..., when was the last time we saw an AGS 0 Princess cut that is spreadier and is located within the shallow area of the AGS accepted total depth of 55-65% range?
Anyone ever ask why??
Wink,
How big % of your clients could be agree wait 6 weeks him choice?
Few othersb) You show these samples in standard Light boxes . Client do him Cut choice and inform you about acceptable clarity and color range( for example VS1-VS2, G-H), mass 1.00-1.10 ct( for example)
!Date: 8/15/2008 10:04:23 AM
Author: Wink
Of course beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and it is possible that some people prefer lifeless lumps of crystallized carbon to bright sparkly things of incredible beauty.Date: 8/15/2008 2:18:32 AM
Author: DiaGem
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder!!!
AGS might tell you which Diamond is cut better or precisely to their standards or research but it has nothing to do with beauty!
AGS can point out symmetry accuracy, measured light performance etc..., etc..., and sometimes people even take this as a sign of beautybut beauty is much wider than any AGS top cut grade or even mediocre cut grade!
You might believe commoditizing of Diamonds is good..., but some (including me) don''t!
I read on this thread lines such as GIA ex-ex (steep/deep) rounds are called ''frozen spit''..., when was the last time we saw an AGS 0 Princess cut that is spreadier and is located within the shallow area of the AGS accepted total depth of 55-65% range?
Anyone ever ask why??
But since most people buying off the net will not get to see the diamond until it is sent to them for inspection the AGS paper allows them a reasonable expectation that they know what they are getting.
It has nothing to do with commoditization and every thing to do with getting what you want, on the first or at least second try instead of having to call in stone after stone until you find one that is at least pretty. I went through a lot of suppliers and a TON of postage trying to find pretty princess cuts for my clients before the AGS cut grade came along for princess cuts. Since I am not in a major cutting center or even a nice supplier rich location (try zero in my city) it helps me greatly to know what to expect before I ever ok the postage. I have NEVER seen an ugly AGS 0 cut. I have seen some I like better than others, but never an ugly one. I have seen MANY MANY ugly princess cuts with other papers, some of which were touted to me as very pretty.
If I were in a city full of suppliers I could look at stones in person if I desired to. (Nowadays I just call Paul.) Since I am not, I rely on Paul and if he does not have what I need I rely on an AGS 0 paper. If that is sounding like a commercial or AGS worship then so be it. Just sign me up as a charter member in the Church of the WHOLY Trustworth Cut Grade.
Also, I do not remember seeing anyone call a steep deep frozen spit in this thread, but maybe I need to go read deeper to see what I missed. I am not a big fan of the steep deep, but I have never seen one of those that warranted the title of Frozen Spit. If it was so used, it was so used inappropriately. Frozen spit should be researved for the I3 crap that we see so often in the 3cts for $500 tennis bracelets at the Mall. You know, the ones that are advertized by showing a picture of F-VS well cut goods in a nce tennis bracelet that sell for $3-4,000 and then when you get to the store they look like they polished frozen balls of spittle and set them. It is illegal bait and switch, but what the heck, but it is allowed to happen every year, in spite of continued protests to the jewelers vigilance committee and the FTC. So much for the government or the jewelers organizations stopping the bad guys.
Pity..., I would have love to hear your definition of the connection between "steep/deep", Tolk specs., and beauty...Date: 8/15/2008 11:14:48 AM
Author: Ellen!
And I also don''t recall steep/deeps being referred to as frozen spit. The implication to them being mentioned, is that they are not going to be nearly as bright and beautiful as a stone cut closer to Tolk specs. But I have been around this block with Diagem before, we both know where we stand, so I won''t elaborate.
It definitely could be a welcome part of my business, but don''t forget that well over 95% of my clients come in asking for rounds and princesses. Those I already have my source for. If a market can be created for the creative cuts, I would love to have part of it, but I can not afford to inventory them, which makes your concept even more appealing to me.Date: 8/15/2008 10:50:01 AM
Author: Serg
Re: I went through a lot of suppliers and a TON of postage trying to find pretty princess cuts for my clients before the AGS cut grade came along for princess cuts. Since I am not in a major cutting center or even a nice supplier rich location (try zero in my city) it helps me greatly to know what to expect before I ever ok the postage
If I were in a city full of suppliers I could look at stones in person if I desired to. (Nowadays I just call Paul.)
Wink,
How big % of your clients could be agree wait 6 weeks him choice?
Suppose
a)you have library nice diamonds( Which you really like)
1) Round cut H&A
2) Princess AGS0
3) Cushion
4) Radiant
5) Oval
6) Pear
7) Emerald
b) You show these samples in standard Light boxes . Client do him Cut choice and inform you about acceptable clarity and color range( for example VS1-VS2, G-H), mass 1.00-1.10 ct( for example)
c) You inform special company about this order . In 2-3 days you will receive quotation ( prices for each combination color and clarity in customer range )
d) If client agree with your price he paid 20% deposit
e) In 6 weeks you will receive diamond according quotation, with Exactly same proportions what you showed to client , with manufacture clarity and color report. + full history of cutting ( rough, semicut photos and models)
f) client could send diamond to ASG for clarity and color grade and receive double price difference( between manufacture grade and AGS grade) , if AGS grade will worse
In same time Strmdr or any other can develop new cut and ask add him cut( real diamond to your library ). Strmdr will pay for sample for your library, but you will pay him fee from each sells him cut design
Could be it something “equal “?
Serg..., you mean a regular and speciality Diamond via order servicing house?Date: 8/15/2008 10:50:01 AM
Author: Serg
Re: I went through a lot of suppliers and a TON of postage trying to find pretty princess cuts for my clients before the AGS cut grade came along for princess cuts. Since I am not in a major cutting center or even a nice supplier rich location (try zero in my city) it helps me greatly to know what to expect before I ever ok the postage
If I were in a city full of suppliers I could look at stones in person if I desired to. (Nowadays I just call Paul.)
Wink,
How big % of your clients could be agree wait 6 weeks him choice?
Suppose
a)you have library nice diamonds( Which you really like)
1) Round cut H&A
2) Princess AGS0
3) Cushion
4) Radiant
5) Oval
6) Pear
7) Emerald
b) You show these samples in standard Light boxes . Client do him Cut choice and inform you about acceptable clarity and color range( for example VS1-VS2, G-H), mass 1.00-1.10 ct( for example)
c) You inform special company about this order . In 2-3 days you will receive quotation ( prices for each combination color and clarity in customer range )
d) If client agree with your price he paid 20% deposit
e) In 6 weeks you will receive diamond according quotation, with Exactly same proportions what you showed to client , with manufacture clarity and color report. + full history of cutting ( rough, semicut photos and models)
f) client could send diamond to ASG for clarity and color grade and receive double price difference( between manufacture grade and AGS grade) , if AGS grade will worse
In same time Strmdr or any other can develop new cut and ask add him cut( real diamond to your library ). Strmdr will pay for sample for your library, but you will pay him fee from each sells him cut design
Could be it something “equal “?
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