our own John Pollard in a AGS podcast advertisement

[diagem]

Date: 8/18/2008 5:09:27 PM
Author: strmrdr
The point is that the industry is playing the game in a dumb manner.

Why dumb..., I notice the majority of the chain playing along....

The historical controls in the industry and to some extent today allowed people and companies to go stagnant and stay in business.

Following the leader down the ideal cut path is another symptom of that.

Where are the industry leaders willing to take a challenge and be dynamic and engaging to consumers?
Sure there are some small companies here doing it but they aren''t big enough to lead the industry.
Where are the leaders capable of making an impact?
Where are the leaders of the industry?
Does it even have leaders other than the failed cartel and the people hanging on to the old system?
Why is every news report I see about something wrong in the industry?

There is lot of rough that will not cut into an ideal cut in today''s market for many reasons.
Isn''t it about time someone said hey we can do better than cutting them like we always have and selling them to unknowing consumers who mistakenly trust the wrong people?

The leaders of this industry who are usually the big financially strong Companies are too busy turning numbers around...
If they cut tons of Ideal rounds and Princesses (see Johns chart above to get a sense of huge the huge quantities

), why rock that boat?
The majority of jewelers are on the same boat..., designing jewelry with the easiest precision sized Diamonds is quick and safe..., remember commodity...

And apparently these Diamonds are considered the best...

Smaller Companies have smaller boats that rock faster in stormy waters which makes it easier for them to maneuver when needed or a must to survive..., so in bad weather like in todays US economy they need to be noticed and the way to get noticed is to be innovative!

I am happy to notice it happening more and more

.

Cant blame the industry leaders and they shouldnt be blamed..., they are doing the right and comfortable job for themselves and for most of the jewelers out there! Building demand on the commodity type Diamonds, while being aided by the most respectable labs...

A place like PriceScope has the great potential of becoming a stage for the jewelers who want to be different..., who want to get noticed..., its just a pity that its not happening to much

, I wish it was though

.

Take a look at the watch industry for example..., most brands have their regular products in plain metals (stainless, gold, plat, etc...), then they have the run of mill watches with pave rounds or invisible princess settings..., but you wont find a respectable watch Company today that doesnt design specialized watches which incorporate incredible work with precision cut fancy shaped Diamonds build to complete a puzzle to the shape of the watch..., and more!!!
Creativity at its best..., and the potential is tremendous!

There is no respectable watch Company today that doesnt offer their client sophisticated designs that blows almost all jewelry Companies out of the water!
I believe the jewelry industry has still a long way to go................

Especially after reading and participating in this thread

...

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 8/18/2008 6:31:42 PM
Author: DiaGem

Author: strmrdr

The point is that the industry is playing the game in a dumb manner.


Why dumb..., I notice the majority of the chain playing along....

If its smart why are large jewelers going bankrupt left and right?

 

[John P]

Date: 8/18/2008 6:31:42 PM
Author: DiaGem

If they cut tons of Ideal rounds and Princesses (see Johns chart above to get a sense of huge the huge quantities

), why rock that boat?

DG, did you miss the fact that ''they'' are not cutting tons of Ideals?
The chart shows the opposite of what you''re saying here.

Go to the top of the page and look at the stats in Wink''s post. Then look at the stats from Rap, PS, and IDEX I posted. Less than 2% of graded diamonds go to AGS and fewer are graded "ideal." And that''s rounds. Princess even less.

Or am I misunderstanding your misunderstanding?

 

[diagem]

Date: 8/18/2008 6:38:32 PM
Author: strmrdr

Date: 8/18/2008 6:31:42 PM
Author: DiaGem

Date: 8/18/2008 5:09:27 PM

Author: strmrdr

The point is that the industry is playing the game in a dumb manner.


Why dumb..., I notice the majority of the chain playing along....

If its smart why are large jewelers going bankrupt left and right?

Because they become financially dependant on these huge Diamond suppliers

...
And its going to happen more as the need and demand for speciality jewelry is growing...

Hey..., I cant believe some jewelers build their business models where they are dependant on one supplier "only"

..., thats crazy in my opinion...

How can jewelers depend on one supplier???

 

[WinkHPD]

Date: 8/18/2008 1:50:49 PM
Author: DiaGem

Date: 8/18/2008 12:36:47 PM
Author: strmrdr

Date: 8/18/2008 11:07:43 AM
Author: risingsun

BTW: I have been reading the links to Octonus that you recommended. It requires a shift in thinking, doesn''t it...

It comes down to marketing, saying this is THE ideal is much easier than explaining why its a beautiful diamond and why one should buy it.

What if someone doesnt think the Ideal round brilliants are beautiful?

?

??

Then they should not buy one. I have plenty of clients that prefer princess or other cuts. I hve never had one prefer a 70% deep round brilliant. I suppose it is possible, but they will not find it here.

Wink

 

[diagem]

Date: 8/18/2008 6:43:35 PM
Author: John Pollard

Date: 8/18/2008 6:31:42 PM
Author: DiaGem

If they cut tons of Ideal rounds and Princesses (see Johns chart above to get a sense of huge the huge quantities

), why rock that boat?

DG, did you miss the fact that ''they'' are not cutting tons of Ideals?
The chart shows the opposite of what you''re saying here.

Sorry John..., I forgot Ideal means only AGS 0''s

...., but I mean the commodity shapes identified as rounds and princess cuts

Go to the top of the page and look at the stats in Wink''s post. Then look at the stats from Rap, PS, and IDEX I posted. Less than 2% of graded diamonds go to AGS and fewer are graded ''ideal.'' And that''s rounds. Princess even less.

Or am I misunderstanding your misunderstanding?

Of-course you are..., and you know it

Now for some info in regards to RapNet and Idex....

I believe the best made stones in this industry are not listed on these lists..., after all why would you need to list your beautifully cut gems??? To help sell??

 

[John P]

Date: 8/18/2008 6:18:10 PM
Author: whatmeworry
I think we''re glossing over an important point that Serg made.
Telling consumers to buy a certain brand (lab or diamond manufacture or vendor) imparts no real knowledge on how to buy a diamond with confidence. It''s telling consumers to swim in my pool and you''ll be safe from the sharks, instead of really teaching them to SWIM on their own. Teaching them what to look for when evaluating a diamond. my little rant.

WMW,

As a teacher I agree completely, but teaching this subject requires dialogue. No better proof of that than Pricescope.

Given a choice between sending no message, or sending a simple one-way message directing consumers to a safe pool - we choose safety.

It''s important to declare that we also believe in the message or else we certainly would not have participated: In the big picture we truly believe in the AGS mantra of consumer protection.

 

[diagem]

Date: 8/18/2008 6:48:18 PM
Author: Wink

Date: 8/18/2008 1:50:49 PM
Author: DiaGem

Date: 8/18/2008 12:36:47 PM
Author: strmrdr

Date: 8/18/2008 11:07:43 AM
Author: risingsun

BTW: I have been reading the links to Octonus that you recommended. It requires a shift in thinking, doesn''t it...

It comes down to marketing, saying this is THE ideal is much easier than explaining why its a beautiful diamond and why one should buy it.

What if someone doesnt think the Ideal round brilliants are beautiful?

?

??

Then they should not buy one. I have plenty of clients that prefer princess or other cuts. I hve never had one prefer a 70% deep round brilliant. I suppose it is possible, but they will not find it here.

Wink

I understand..., rounds, Princesses or other cuts....

 

[WinkHPD]

Date: 8/18/2008 12:36:47 PM
Author: strmrdr

Date: 8/18/2008 11:07:43 AM
Author: risingsun

BTW: I have been reading the links to Octonus that you recommended. It requires a shift in thinking, doesn''t it...

It comes down to marketing, saying this is THE ideal is much easier than explaining why its a beautiful diamond and why one should buy it.

You obviously have NEVER been to my store to be educated about a diamond. I do not sell a stone because it is THE ideal (caps yours) I sell a diamond because it is incredibly beautiful.

Your comment denigrates those of us who have dedicated years of our lives to being professional and thorough about the eduction of ourselves so that we can offer the best education to our clients.

Just when I begin to think we are understanding one another you slap me up along side the head and call me a hack.

Ouch!

Wink

 

[John P]

Date: 8/18/2008 5:18:49 PM
Author: strmrdr

Date: 8/18/2008 4:28:27 PM
Author: Maisie

Date: 8/16/2008 9:50:10 PM

Author: Lynn B

...For us PSers, it''s hard to believe, I know,

but not everyone wants to immerse themselves into knowing and learning about (or agonizing over!

) diamonds. For a person like this, buying an AGS-0 stone is simply one easy way to make it a relatively no-brainer type of experience, while still ending up with a beautiful diamond...

I absolutely agree with this.

It is true to some extent but cutting diamonds in a way that''s just a tiny part of diamonds true potential isn''t the answer.

Strm,

Would you agree that attacking those few who are cutting to true potential (even if a tiny part) isn''t the answer either?

Attacking those who cut for weight-over-performance would seem a better way to spend (our) time.

 

[WinkHPD]

Date: 8/18/2008 5:38:33 PM
Author: Allison D.

Date: 8/16/2008 12:17:03 PM
Author: risingsun
Ellen''s ''book'' appears to be shared by John, Wink, Paul, and Brian.

I *think* those are the four original apostles of the diamond new testament.....but I could be wrong.

Hey, I wondered why I was nearly hit by lightning as I left the house today...

 

[WinkHPD]

Date: 8/18/2008 6:18:10 PM
Author: whatmeworry
I think we''re glossing over an important point that Serg made.
Telling consumers to buy a certain brand (lab or diamond manufacture or vendor) imparts no real knowledge on how to buy a diamond with confidence. It''s telling consumers to swim in my pool and you''ll be safe from the sharks, instead of really teaching them to SWIM on their own. Teaching them what to look for when evaluating a diamond. my little rant.

Sigh.

When you go to look at one of Paul''s stones, each and every one comes with a picture of the AGS report, an idealscope, an ASET, a sarin report, a highly magnified picture, a gem adviser report, and a Hearts and Arrows image.

What about this information is not helping the client learn to swim?

Wink on his own little rant

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 8/18/2008 6:56:39 PM
Author: Wink

Date: 8/18/2008 12:36:47 PM

Author: strmrdr

Date: 8/18/2008 11:07:43 AM

Author: risingsun


BTW: I have been reading the links to Octonus that you recommended. It requires a shift in thinking, doesn''t it...

It comes down to marketing, saying this is THE ideal is much easier than explaining why its a beautiful diamond and why one should buy it.

You obviously have NEVER been to my store to be educated about a diamond. I do not sell a stone because it is THE ideal (caps yours) I sell a diamond because it is incredibly beautiful.


Your comment denigrates those of us who have dedicated years of our lives to being professional and thorough about the eduction of ourselves so that we can offer the best education to our clients.


Just when I begin to think we are understanding one another you slap me up along side the head and call me a hack.


Ouch!


Wink

Wink, you know very well I wasn''t talking about in your store but the overall concept of the ideal cut.
Can you deny that the concept of the ideal cut is first based on marketing?

 

[John P]

Date: 8/18/2008 6:51:27 PM
Author: DiaGem

Date: 8/18/2008 6:43:35 PM
Author: John Pollard

Date: 8/18/2008 6:31:42 PM
Author: DiaGem

If they cut tons of Ideal rounds and Princesses (see Johns chart above to get a sense of huge the huge quantities

), why rock that boat?

DG, did you miss the fact that ''they'' are not cutting tons of Ideals?
The chart shows the opposite of what you''re saying here.

Sorry John..., I forgot Ideal means only AGS 0''s

...., but I mean the commodity shapes identified as rounds and princess cuts

Go to the top of the page and look at the stats in Wink''s post. Then look at the stats from Rap, PS, and IDEX I posted. Less than 2% of graded diamonds go to AGS and fewer are graded ''ideal.'' And that''s rounds. Princess even less.

Or am I misunderstanding your misunderstanding?

Of-course you are..., and you know it

DiaGem, I think you''re guilty of stereotyping. Isn''t this what you''re accusing us of?

Now for some info in regards to RapNet and Idex....

I believe the best made stones in this industry are not listed on these lists..., after all why would you need to list your beautifully cut gems??? To help sell??

Again, this supports my premise: If responsible jewelers with beautiful diamonds are not listing on RapNet it makes it even more important that we alert shoppers to what lurks in most commercial outlets.

For the second time I am going to invite you to visit me. I will take you to some "Direct-to-public" diamond outlets, boasting 60% off sales (yr round) as well as your choice of malls. We''ll o''erlook inventories (tell me which 66%+deep rounds you find beautiful)

. We''ll o''erhear what they say to shoppers. We''ll ask questions and note the answers - please control your breathing, the salesperson may have been selling shoes last week.

Then, a breath of fresh air, I''ll take you to a few stores where people of the highest caliber sell with great integrity and transparency. They will affirm what I''ve presented here: The number of mall chain stores, fine-jewelry counters and discount dealers outnumbers the businesses carrying strongly graded, high quality makes.

Come on over DG. I have a margarita waiting for you. Rocks. Extra salt.

 

[diagem]

Date: 8/18/2008 7:09:58 PM
Author: Wink

Date: 8/18/2008 6:18:10 PM
Author: whatmeworry
I think we''re glossing over an important point that Serg made.
Telling consumers to buy a certain brand (lab or diamond manufacture or vendor) imparts no real knowledge on how to buy a diamond with confidence. It''s telling consumers to swim in my pool and you''ll be safe from the sharks, instead of really teaching them to SWIM on their own. Teaching them what to look for when evaluating a diamond. my little rant.

Sigh.

When you go to look at one of Paul''s stones, each and every one comes with a picture of the AGS report, an idealscope, an ASET, a sarin report, a highly magnified picture, a gem adviser report, and a Hearts and Arrows image.

What about this information is not helping the client learn to swim?

Wink on his own little rant

There are two sides to this coin..., right?

 

[John P]

Date: 8/18/2008 7:11:15 PM
Author: strmrdr

Wink, you know very well I wasn't talking about in your store but the overall concept of the ideal cut.
Can you deny that the concept of the ideal cut is first based on marketing?

I agree that Wink should know that.

Re; marketing. I disagree. The AGS was established by Shipley as a consumer protection organization in 1934. AGS laboratories have always maintained adherence to the AGS standards and ethics. If it was about marketing I think they would have done a better job of capitalizing on "ideal" as "their" term - and would certainly have more market-share than 2%.

ETA: Also, if it was about marketing, they would not be so hard on finish. They would also have widened the range for 0 rather than narrowed it in 2005. The most profitable marketing is appeasing manufacturers so that they want to send you stones, so that your business grows at the source.

 

[WinkHPD]

Date: 8/18/2008 6:55:27 PM
Author: DiaGem

Date: 8/18/2008 6:48:18 PM
Author: Wink

Date: 8/18/2008 1:50:49 PM
Author: DiaGem

Date: 8/18/2008 12:36:47 PM
Author: strmrdr

Date: 8/18/2008 11:07:43 AM
Author: risingsun

BTW: I have been reading the links to Octonus that you recommended. It requires a shift in thinking, doesn't it...

It comes down to marketing, saying this is THE ideal is much easier than explaining why its a beautiful diamond and why one should buy it.

What if someone doesnt think the Ideal round brilliants are beautiful?

?

??

Then they should not buy one. I have plenty of clients that prefer princess or other cuts. I hve never had one prefer a 70% deep round brilliant. I suppose it is possible, but they will not find it here.

Wink

I understand..., rounds, Princesses or other cuts....

I wish I had clients for all the things you think I should have clients for. I wish people were standing in line waiting for me to find them something special.

I have tried. I sold Jubilees, so few sold in the US that the company eventually quit making them. I sell Richard Homer cuts in colored gemstones, unique and often one of a kind cuts, about 1/10th of what I think people should be buying.

I will be happy to show some of Storm's cuts should they make it to market, but I am not holding my breath that there will be long lines of people demanding them. Like it or not the market is driven more by consumers than by producers and they are demanding rounds and princesses today. Tried to sell a marquise lately? Used to be one of my top sellers 25 years ago. Have not sold one recently that I remember.

I really don't think you understand my business any better than I understand yours, I understand being talked down to though. Come play in my backyard, then tell me I am not playing the game right.

Wink

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 8/18/2008 6:57:07 PM
Author: John Pollard

Date: 8/18/2008 5:18:49 PM

Author: strmrdr

Date: 8/18/2008 4:28:27 PM

Author: Maisie

Date: 8/16/2008 9:50:10 PM


Author: Lynn B


...For us PSers, it''s hard to believe, I know,

but not everyone wants to immerse themselves into knowing and learning about (or agonizing over!

) diamonds. For a person like this, buying an AGS-0 stone is simply one easy way to make it a relatively no-brainer type of experience, while still ending up with a beautiful diamond...

I absolutely agree with this.

It is true to some extent but cutting diamonds in a way that''s just a tiny part of diamonds true potential isn''t the answer.

Strm,


Would you agree that attacking those few who are cutting to true potential (even if a tiny part) isn''t the answer either?


Attacking those who cut for weight-over-performance would seem a better way to spend (our) time.

Attacking either isn''t the answer, discussing it is.
But first we have to define the terms and that is the most frustrating part.

That was rather badly worded.
I should have said that "It is true to some extent but cutting diamonds in a way that''s just a tiny segment of potential combinations that show diamonds true potential isn''t the answer."

 

[Serg]

Date: 8/18/2008 7:09:58 PM
Author: Wink

Date: 8/18/2008 6:18:10 PM
Author: whatmeworry
I think we''re glossing over an important point that Serg made.
Telling consumers to buy a certain brand (lab or diamond manufacture or vendor) imparts no real knowledge on how to buy a diamond with confidence. It''s telling consumers to swim in my pool and you''ll be safe from the sharks, instead of really teaching them to SWIM on their own. Teaching them what to look for when evaluating a diamond. my little rant.

Sigh.

When you go to look at one of Paul''s stones, each and every one comes with a picture of the AGS report, an idealscope, an ASET, a sarin report, a highly magnified picture, a gem adviser report, and a Hearts and Arrows image.

What about this information is not helping the client learn to swim?

Wink on his own little rant

Wink,

When I buy Watch( Vine) seller has not so many documents( confirmation what I buy “Real Ideal” watch )
Even if watch ( Vine) is very expansive
In same time you have much bigger range of Luxury goods and real confidence( when I buy watch)
Why do diamonds need so many document to create consumer confidence?
Why consumer confidence is low when he buy diamonds( Even if he buy AGS0)?
Wink , I believe what you do best , but why do you need so many documents ? It is abnormal , It is just show how is low consumer confidence
How is big paper input to consumer confidence?

 

[whatmeworry]

Date: 8/18/2008 7:09:58 PM
Author: Wink

Date: 8/18/2008 6:18:10 PM
Author: whatmeworry
I think we''re glossing over an important point that Serg made.
Telling consumers to buy a certain brand (lab or diamond manufacture or vendor) imparts no real knowledge on how to buy a diamond with confidence. It''s telling consumers to swim in my pool and you''ll be safe from the sharks, instead of really teaching them to SWIM on their own. Teaching them what to look for when evaluating a diamond. my little rant.

Sigh.

When you go to look at one of Paul''s stones, each and every one comes with a picture of the AGS report, an idealscope, an ASET, a sarin report, a highly magnified picture, a gem adviser report, and a Hearts and Arrows image.

What about this information is not helping the client learn to swim?

Wink on his own little rant

Wink,
Because if a consumer goes into a store and they don''t have an AGS report,an idealscope, an ASET, a sarin report, a highly magnified picture, a gem advisor, and a Hearts and Arrow, all you''ve tought him is to go to another store. You haven''t tought him how to critically evaluate those diamonds in that store. What if a store carried Paul''s stones without any of those information, should I leave or should I take a look around?

 

[WinkHPD]

Date: 8/18/2008 7:11:15 PM
Author: strmrdr

Date: 8/18/2008 6:56:39 PM
Author: Wink

Date: 8/18/2008 12:36:47 PM

Author: strmrdr

Date: 8/18/2008 11:07:43 AM

Author: risingsun


BTW: I have been reading the links to Octonus that you recommended. It requires a shift in thinking, doesn''t it...

It comes down to marketing, saying this is THE ideal is much easier than explaining why its a beautiful diamond and why one should buy it.

You obviously have NEVER been to my store to be educated about a diamond. I do not sell a stone because it is THE ideal (caps yours) I sell a diamond because it is incredibly beautiful.


Your comment denigrates those of us who have dedicated years of our lives to being professional and thorough about the eduction of ourselves so that we can offer the best education to our clients.


Just when I begin to think we are understanding one another you slap me up along side the head and call me a hack.


Ouch!


Wink

Wink, you know very well I wasn''t talking about in your store but the overall concept of the ideal cut.
Can you deny that the concept of the ideal cut is first based on marketing?

Absolutely. It is based on what is going to be consistently beautiful. While I have seen some ideal cut diamonds that I liked better than others, I have NEVER EVER NEVER NEVER EVER seen an ugly one.

Wink

 

[Serg]

Date: 8/18/2008 6:57:07 PM
Author: John Pollard

Date: 8/18/2008 5:18:49 PM
Author: strmrdr

Date: 8/18/2008 4:28:27 PM
Author: Maisie

Date: 8/16/2008 9:50:10 PM

Author: Lynn B

...For us PSers, it''s hard to believe, I know,

but not everyone wants to immerse themselves into knowing and learning about (or agonizing over!

) diamonds. For a person like this, buying an AGS-0 stone is simply one easy way to make it a relatively no-brainer type of experience, while still ending up with a beautiful diamond...

I absolutely agree with this.

It is true to some extent but cutting diamonds in a way that''s just a tiny part of diamonds true potential isn''t the answer.

Strm,

Would you agree that attacking those few who are cutting to true potential (even if a tiny part) isn''t the answer either?

Attacking those who cut for weight-over-performance would seem a better way to spend (our) time.

John,

where do you see attack?
If Somebody has different from you point view, It is not meant what he attacks .
to much labels.

Do you see any difference between discussion and attack?

 

[diagem]

Date: 8/18/2008 7:11:44 PM
Author: John Pollard

Date: 8/18/2008 6:51:27 PM
Author: DiaGem

Date: 8/18/2008 6:43:35 PM
Author: John Pollard

Date: 8/18/2008 6:31:42 PM
Author: DiaGem

If they cut tons of Ideal rounds and Princesses (see Johns chart above to get a sense of huge the huge quantities

), why rock that boat?

DG, did you miss the fact that ''they'' are not cutting tons of Ideals?
The chart shows the opposite of what you''re saying here.

Sorry John..., I forgot Ideal means only AGS 0''s

...., but I mean the commodity shapes identified as rounds and princess cuts

Go to the top of the page and look at the stats in Wink''s post. Then look at the stats from Rap, PS, and IDEX I posted. Less than 2% of graded diamonds go to AGS and fewer are graded ''ideal.'' And that''s rounds. Princess even less.

Or am I misunderstanding your misunderstanding?

Of-course you are..., and you know it

DiaGem, I think you''re guilty of stereotyping. Isn''t this what you''re accusing us of?

?

?

Now for some info in regards to RapNet and Idex....

I believe the best made stones in this industry are not listed on these lists..., after all why would you need to list your beautifully cut gems??? To help sell??

Again, this supports my premise: If responsible jewelers with beautiful diamonds are not listing on RapNet it makes it even more important that we alert shoppers to what lurks in most commercial outlets.

First of all..., the majority of Diamonds on these lists belong or are owned by suppliers of Diamonds..., not necessarily jewelers.

For the second time I am going to invite you to visit me. I will take you to some ''Direct-to-public'' diamond outlets, boasting 60% off sales (yr round) as well as your choice of malls. We''ll o''erlook inventories (tell me which 66%+deep rounds you find beautiful)

. We''ll o''erhear what they say to shoppers. We''ll ask questions and note the answers - please control your breathing, the salesperson may have been selling shoes last week.

John..., I know whats out there believe me..., but you must take a lot more factors into consideration..., not everyone is willing to pay top $$$ for Ideals (or Ex-Ex-Ex or super performance)..., and that''s just one factor..., so like I said..., the other options are still beautiful Diamonds..., in my opinion at least!

Then, a breath of fresh air, I''ll take you to a few stores where people of the highest caliber sell with great integrity and transparency. They will affirm what I''ve presented here: The number of mall chain stores, fine-jewelry counters and discount dealers outnumbers the businesses carrying strongly graded, high quality makes.


Come on over DG. I have a margarita waiting for you. Rocks. Extra salt.

With pleasure..., but I only drink straight no mix..., sorry!
But I am buying

 

[Lynn B]

Date: 8/18/2008 6:57:07 PM
Author: John Pollard

Date: 8/18/2008 5:18:49 PM

Author: strmrdr

Date: 8/18/2008 4:28:27 PM

Author: Maisie

Date: 8/16/2008 9:50:10 PM


Author: Lynn B


...For us PSers, it''s hard to believe, I know,

but not everyone wants to immerse themselves into knowing and learning about (or agonizing over!

) diamonds. For a person like this, buying an AGS-0 stone is simply one easy way to make it a relatively no-brainer type of experience, while still ending up with a beautiful diamond...

I absolutely agree with this.

It is true to some extent but cutting diamonds in a way that''s just a tiny part of diamonds true potential isn''t the answer.

Strm,


Would you agree that attacking those few who are cutting to true potential (even if a tiny part) isn''t the answer either?


Attacking those who cut for weight-over-performance would seem a better way to spend (our) time.

Honestly, I don''t quite understand Storm''s reply to me?

Also, the poster who stated something along the lines that simply recommending an AGS-0 stone isn''t *teaching* the potential buyer anything about diamonds is making my point completely!!! The fact is that not everyone WANTS to know about diamonds. How many young (or not-so-young!

) guys out there do we know about who just want to give their girlfriend a beautiful ring she will (hopefully) love (without making a career out of learning about numbers, percentages, crown and pavilion angles, depth, tables and girdles?!) and get back to their bass fishing or golf game or whatever?!!

And for the same (or less) amount of time it would take for him to buy her some average (or worse) ring at the mall, with one simple qualifier, she can have a beautiful, sparkling diamond.

IMVHO, there is NOTHING wrong with that picture!

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 8/18/2008 7:19:27 PM
Author: John Pollard

Date: 8/18/2008 7:11:15 PM

Author: strmrdr


Wink, you know very well I wasn''t talking about in your store but the overall concept of the ideal cut.

Can you deny that the concept of the ideal cut is first based on marketing?

I agree that Wink should know that.


Re; marketing. I disagree. The AGS was established by Shipley as a consumer protection organization in 1934. AGS laboratories have always maintained adherence to the AGS standards and ethics. If it was about marketing I think they would have done a better job of capitalizing on ''ideal'' as ''their'' term - and would certainly have more market-share than 2%.


ETA: Also, if it was about marketing, they would not be so hard on finish. They would also have widened the range for 0 rather than narrowed it in 2005. The most profitable marketing is appeasing manufacturers so that they want to send you stones, so that your business grows at the source.

*Grin* this is an endless debate.
Why would a seller pick AGS over GIA to send the exact same diamond to?
Main reason is to possibly make a little extra money.
Its the same stone why is it worth more?
Because through marketing some people are convinced that AGS0 is the best.
If they aren''t all ready then that seller can expose them to the marketing to make the sale.
All those goodies Wink mentioned he offers are marketing tools that diamond is the same diamond without them.
To me something that doesn''t change the actual product is marketing.
Be it a report a blue box or......

 

[John P]

Date: 8/18/2008 7:26:46 PM
Author: Serg

John,

where do you see attack?
If Somebody has different from you point view, It is not meant what he attacks .
to much labels.

Do you see any difference between discussion and attack?

Good point Serg. Instead of attack perhaps I should say argue.

To me an argument occurs when both sides keep reiterating the same positions without acknowledging points the others have made.

I can give: I think your comparisons to wine tasting have merit. If that could come about (luxury market as you propose) it would be phenomenal. I don''t see it replacing the current market for round brilliants but as a luxury option it would be wonderful. I think AGS would play along, as I know they have plans for a ray-tracer that can evaluate any shape, even new cuts, though I do think it may be a deduction system which I know you''re not in favor of.

Now I ask: Do the numbers I posted surprise you? Particularly the information about AGS'' market share? Also, the statistics (depth%) on the most discounted commercially-available round brilliants? Does it explain better why some sort of consumer protection message - such as the Podcast - can serve to protect people shopping today?

 

[whatmeworry]

I have no problem with foks sticking with AGS0. But saying buy AGS0 because of consumer protection, is not consumer protection. John could have taken the next step and say only buy Infinity diamonds because you the consumer are protected. Education is consumer protection, not brand marketing. Why not send everybody to T&Co in the name of consumer protection?

 

[WinkHPD]

Date: 8/18/2008 7:23:09 PM
Author: whatmeworry

Date: 8/18/2008 7:09:58 PM
Author: Wink

Date: 8/18/2008 6:18:10 PM
Author: whatmeworry
I think we''re glossing over an important point that Serg made.
Telling consumers to buy a certain brand (lab or diamond manufacture or vendor) imparts no real knowledge on how to buy a diamond with confidence. It''s telling consumers to swim in my pool and you''ll be safe from the sharks, instead of really teaching them to SWIM on their own. Teaching them what to look for when evaluating a diamond. my little rant.

Sigh.

When you go to look at one of Paul''s stones, each and every one comes with a picture of the AGS report, an idealscope, an ASET, a sarin report, a highly magnified picture, a gem adviser report, and a Hearts and Arrows image.

What about this information is not helping the client learn to swim?

Wink on his own little rant

Wink,
Because if a consumer goes into a store and they don''t have an AGS report,an idealscope, an ASET, a sarin report, a highly magnified picture, a gem adviser, and a Hearts and Arrow, all you''ve tought him is to go to another store. You haven''t tought him how to critically evaluate those diamonds in that store. What if a store carried Paul''s stones without any of those information, should I leave or should I take a look around?

Sorry if I sound cranky, it is 95 degrees in my office and I have sweat through two shirts already.

When a client leaves my store he has an idea about how to use a microscope, a loupe, an idealscope, how to look through a hearts and arrows viewer and how to SEE a diamond, as that is what we spend most of our time doing. I show them a well cut diamond, and incredibly well cut diamond, and a dog diamond. I show them how to see the diamonds and then they can go shop anywhere they want, few do though. Those who have shopped often tell me of the lies and misinformation that they have received. Those who do leave to shop normally return quickly and tell me that no one else if sharing this information with them. On the INTERNET it is the only way for you to see what you are really getting, so it is good for me to deal with someone like Paul who provides it all for me.

Something that I find VERY surprising. I own the only ASET in the State of Idaho, which I think is a pathetic comment on the preparedness of the average jeweler here. I am one of only a few jewelers who readily makes available a microscope for my clients. If I teach people to leave stores that are not prepared to let him see more than just what the diamonds look like under klieg lights, then I have in fact done that person a favor.

I can teach you the basics in an hour, if you want to learn to actually critically evaluate a diamond it is going to take longer than that. Even then, to do it properly you will need some tools that you can acquire easily, like a loop and an idealscope. If a store carried Paul''s stones and did not share the information that he gives to them to share with their clients then I would say the store owner is making a huge mistake and perhaps the client should go look for someone who cares enough to share that information with him/her.

Wink

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 8/18/2008 6:44:36 PM
Author: DiaGem

Date: 8/18/2008 6:38:32 PM

Author: strmrdr

Date: 8/18/2008 6:31:42 PM

Author: DiaGem

Date: 8/18/2008 5:09:27 PM


Author: strmrdr


The point is that the industry is playing the game in a dumb manner.



Why dumb..., I notice the majority of the chain playing along....

If its smart why are large jewelers going bankrupt left and right?

Because they become financially dependant on these huge Diamond suppliers

...

And its going to happen more as the need and demand for speciality jewelry is growing...


Hey..., I cant believe some jewelers build their business models where they are dependant on one supplier ''only''

..., thats crazy in my opinion...


How can jewelers depend on one supplier???

because it has always been done that way maybe?
Your post actually makes my point.
These sellers were protected by the old system and couldn''t change.
Some of them had been doing the same thing over and over and over again for over a 100 years.

 

[Serg]

Date: 8/18/2008 7:38:29 PM
Author: John Pollard

Date: 8/18/2008 7:26:46 PM
Author: Serg

John,

where do you see attack?
If Somebody has different from you point view, It is not meant what he attacks .
to much labels.

Do you see any difference between discussion and attack?

Good point Serg. Instead of attack perhaps I should say argue.

To me an argument occurs when both sides keep reiterating the same positions without acknowledging points the others have made.

I can give: I think your comparisons to wine tasting have merit. If that could come about (luxury market as you propose) it would be phenomenal. I don''t see it replacing the current market for round brilliants but as a luxury option it would be wonderful. I think AGS would play along, as I know they have plans for a ray-tracer that can evaluate any shape, even new cuts, though I do think it may be a deduction system which I know you''re not in favor of.

Now I ask: Do the numbers I posted surprise you? Particularly the information about AGS'' market share? Also, the statistics (depth%) on the most discounted commercially-available round brilliants? Does it explain better why some sort of consumer protection message - such as the Podcast - can serve to protect people shopping today?

John,

I have quite different numbers for AGS, HRD, GIA, IGI
I do not like publish its without link to source.
I think Rapnet and Idex has not representative database
Separately we need discuss data from PS.
we need separate number diamond in list and number diamonds had been sold from same list

PS could have 200.000 GIA diamonds in list what will do not sell in PS during years and 2000 AGS which will sell each few weeks

Do you see difference.

BTW do you have AGS and GIA revenue? I think GIA publish such information