our own John Pollard in a AGS podcast advertisement

[John P]

Date: 8/18/2008 7:37:20 PM
Author: strmrdr

Date: 8/18/2008 7:19:27 PM
Author: John Pollard

Date: 8/18/2008 7:11:15 PM

Author: strmrdr

Wink, you know very well I wasn''t talking about in your store but the overall concept of the ideal cut.
Can you deny that the concept of the ideal cut is first based on marketing?

I agree that Wink should know that.

Re; marketing. I disagree. The AGS was established by Shipley as a consumer protection organization in 1934. AGS laboratories have always maintained adherence to the AGS standards and ethics. If it was about marketing I think they would have done a better job of capitalizing on ''ideal'' as ''their'' term - and would certainly have more market-share than 2%.

ETA: Also, if it was about marketing, they would not be so hard on finish. They would also have widened the range for 0 rather than narrowed it in 2005. The most profitable marketing is appeasing manufacturers so that they want to send you stones, so that your business grows at the source.

*Grin* this is an endless debate.
Why would a seller pick AGS over GIA to send the exact same diamond to?
Main reason is to possibly make a little extra money.
Its the same stone why is it worth more?
Because through marketing some people are convinced that AGS0 is the best.
If they aren''t all ready then that seller can expose them to the marketing to make the sale.
All those goodies Wink mentioned he offers are marketing tools that diamond is the same diamond without them.
To me something that doesn''t change the actual product is marketing.
Be it a report a blue box or......

You say marketing. I say consumer protection. That''s worth more to me.

The stricter standards of AGS (finish, strictness, the light performance grade, whatever) are what earned the reputation. That degree of scrutiny and extra evaluation have proven to be worth something.

If you''re saying the little extra $ is because they''re marketing their consumer protection I''ll agree. No different than a PS vendor charging a little more for the diamond because they run extra tests, take extra photos, etc.

*Grin* this is an endless debate. No argument there.

 

[WinkHPD]

Date: 8/18/2008 7:21:51 PM
Author: Serg

Date: 8/18/2008 7:09:58 PM
Author: Wink

Date: 8/18/2008 6:18:10 PM
Author: whatmeworry
I think we''re glossing over an important point that Serg made.
Telling consumers to buy a certain brand (lab or diamond manufacture or vendor) imparts no real knowledge on how to buy a diamond with confidence. It''s telling consumers to swim in my pool and you''ll be safe from the sharks, instead of really teaching them to SWIM on their own. Teaching them what to look for when evaluating a diamond. my little rant.

Sigh.

When you go to look at one of Paul''s stones, each and every one comes with a picture of the AGS report, an idealscope, an ASET, a sarin report, a highly magnified picture, a gem adviser report, and a Hearts and Arrows image.

What about this information is not helping the client learn to swim?

Wink on his own little rant

Wink,

When I buy Watch( Vine) seller has not so many documents( confirmation what I buy “Real Ideal” watch )
Even if watch ( Vine) is very expansive

In same time you have much bigger range of Luxury goods and real confidence( when I buy watch)
Why do diamonds need so many document to create consumer confidence?

Why consumer confidence is low when he buy diamonds( Even if he buy AGS0)?
Wink , I believe what you do best , but why do you need so many documents ? It is abnormal , It is just show how is low consumer confidence

How is big paper input to consumer confidence?

I am not a watch guy, so I can not answer that part of your question.

As for why so much paperwork on a diamond? Who knows. My internet clients ask for it so I provide it. My in house clients look at the diamonds, I don''t remember actually ever showing one a sarin report. I let them look at the live ASET, and the liive diamonds. If they want to go home I can print out all of the information that Paul provides for them if they like.

I guess it would be like me going to buy something on the Internet that I knew nothing about. I would want all the information that I could find to be as sure as I could be that I was not getting cheated.

Wink

 

[diagem]

Date: 8/18/2008 7:38:29 PM
Author: John Pollard

Date: 8/18/2008 7:26:46 PM
Author: Serg

John,

where do you see attack?
If Somebody has different from you point view, It is not meant what he attacks .
to much labels.

Do you see any difference between discussion and attack?

Good point Serg. Instead of attack perhaps I should say argue.

To me an argument occurs when both sides keep reiterating the same positions without acknowledging points the others have made.

I can give: I think your comparisons to wine tasting have merit. If that could come about (luxury market as you propose) it would be phenomenal. I don''t see it replacing the current market for round brilliants but as a luxury option it would be wonderful. I think AGS would play along, as I know they have plans for a ray-tracer that can evaluate any shape, even new cuts, though I do think it may be a deduction system which I know you''re not in favor of.

Now I ask: Do the numbers I posted surprise you? Particularly the information about AGS'' market share? Also, the statistics (depth%) on the most discounted commercially-available round brilliants? Does it explain better why some sort of consumer protection message - such as the Podcast - can serve to protect people shopping today?

There you go again..., missing the point!

Its not about measuring anything! Ray tracers for what??? measure performance?
John..., I dont think the beauty of Diamonds is measured by its performance! Especially not in fancy cuts, do you realy honestly think that all the AGS 0 Princess Cuts are the most beautiful ones? Especially the ones around the 75% total depths?

Why did their Asscher Idealizing failed? I dont know any Asscher Cut cutters even knowing or trying to submit for an AGS report!

When it comes to Fancies..., beauty is personal to each owns taste!

 

[John P]

Date: 8/18/2008 7:46:32 PM
Author: Serg

Date: 8/18/2008 7:38:29 PM
Author: John Pollard

Date: 8/18/2008 7:26:46 PM
Author: Serg

John,

where do you see attack?
If Somebody has different from you point view, It is not meant what he attacks .
to much labels.

Do you see any difference between discussion and attack?

Good point Serg. Instead of attack perhaps I should say argue.

To me an argument occurs when both sides keep reiterating the same positions without acknowledging points the others have made.

I can give: I think your comparisons to wine tasting have merit. If that could come about (luxury market as you propose) it would be phenomenal. I don''t see it replacing the current market for round brilliants but as a luxury option it would be wonderful. I think AGS would play along, as I know they have plans for a ray-tracer that can evaluate any shape, even new cuts, though I do think it may be a deduction system which I know you''re not in favor of.

Now I ask: Do the numbers I posted surprise you? Particularly the information about AGS'' market share? Also, the statistics (depth%) on the most discounted commercially-available round brilliants? Does it explain better why some sort of consumer protection message - such as the Podcast - can serve to protect people shopping today?

John,

I have quite different numbers for AGS, HRD, GIA, IGI
I do not like publish its without link to source.
I think Rapnet and Idex has not representative database

Separately we need discuss data from PS.
we need separate number diamond in list and number diamonds had been sold from same list

PS could have 200.000 GIA diamonds in list what will do not sell in PS during years and 2000 AGS which will sell each few weeks

Do you see difference.

BTW do you have AGS and GIA revenue? I think GIA publish such information

Serg,

You did not believe IDEX and you asked for Pricescope. I provided that info as well as Rap. This afternoon I pulled from Polygon. It''s the same: 1.2%

These are four different listing services and I believe they are the largest in this country.

Please provide the different numbers you have and the source. When you have done that we may continue.

 

[diagem]

Date: 8/18/2008 7:45:14 PM
Author: strmrdr

Date: 8/18/2008 6:44:36 PM
Author: DiaGem

Date: 8/18/2008 6:38:32 PM

Author: strmrdr

Date: 8/18/2008 6:31:42 PM

Author: DiaGem

Date: 8/18/2008 5:09:27 PM


Author: strmrdr


The point is that the industry is playing the game in a dumb manner.



Why dumb..., I notice the majority of the chain playing along....

If its smart why are large jewelers going bankrupt left and right?

Because they become financially dependant on these huge Diamond suppliers

...

And its going to happen more as the need and demand for speciality jewelry is growing...


Hey..., I cant believe some jewelers build their business models where they are dependant on one supplier ''only''

..., thats crazy in my opinion...


How can jewelers depend on one supplier???

because it has always been done that way maybe?
Your post actually makes my point.
These sellers were protected by the old system and couldn''t change.
Some of them had been doing the same thing over and over and over again for over a 100 years.

And if you notice carefully..., these sellers are the ones getting thrown out of the business!!!
The business is changing rapidly..., extremely rapidly!

Its moving out of its primitiveness!!!

Like I said many times before!

Big Companies with small ideas will be out..., small Companies with BIG ideas will survive!

 

[AndyMN]

John, I thought your podcast was great (obviously AGS did as well), a perfect jumping off point for someone trying to sift through all of the junk information out there about cut. It sounded to me as though you had the consumer''s best interest in mind. In fact, I had a customer in today who was getting all kinds of false information (I don''t think it was deception, just salespeople pushing their agenda) and was complaining about how difficult it is to know what is credible. These days, because of all of the access we have to information, the consumer needs to find an advocate rather than a salesperson to help them sift though all of the garbage in order to find the credible information and ultimately the diamond that is right for them. I don''t know about ya''ll but when I learned how to swim on my own I first used a kick board and then took several lessons at the YMCA.

 

[Lynn B]

OK... with the true experts hashing it out here, I am definitely out of my element and at this point, I should probably just keep my mouth shut... but apparently I can''t!

Date: 8/18/2008 7:44:47 PM
Author: whatmeworry

I have no problem with foks sticking with AGS0. But saying buy AGS0 because of consumer protection, is not consumer protection. John could have taken the next step and say only buy Infinity diamonds because you the consumer are protected. Education is consumer protection, not brand marketing. Why not send everybody to T&Co in the name of consumer protection?

I absolutely agree that "education is consumer protection"... but again (we really do need a hair-pulling emoticon here!) -- NOT EVERYONE wants educated!

I know, I know... hard to believe here in PS''ville, but TRUE!

It is for these people that purchasing an AGS-0 stone can be an easy-breezy, no-sweat, no-worries, "sure thing".

Are AGS-0 diamonds the ONLY beautiful diamonds in the world? No, of course not. And no one is arguing that point, anyway. The AGS-0 grade is just one marker pointing to a beautiful stone. Let the potential buyer do what he chooses with that bit of information.

And hey, if T&Co (or anyone else) wants to do a podcast, and they are consistently delivering what they advertise, I say, why not?

 

[Serg]

Date: 8/18/2008 7:55:28 PM
Author: John Pollard

Date: 8/18/2008 7:46:32 PM
Author: Serg

Date: 8/18/2008 7:38:29 PM
Author: John Pollard

Date: 8/18/2008 7:26:46 PM
Author: Serg

John,

where do you see attack?
If Somebody has different from you point view, It is not meant what he attacks .
to much labels.

Do you see any difference between discussion and attack?

Good point Serg. Instead of attack perhaps I should say argue.

To me an argument occurs when both sides keep reiterating the same positions without acknowledging points the others have made.

I can give: I think your comparisons to wine tasting have merit. If that could come about (luxury market as you propose) it would be phenomenal. I don't see it replacing the current market for round brilliants but as a luxury option it would be wonderful. I think AGS would play along, as I know they have plans for a ray-tracer that can evaluate any shape, even new cuts, though I do think it may be a deduction system which I know you're not in favor of.

Now I ask: Do the numbers I posted surprise you? Particularly the information about AGS' market share? Also, the statistics (depth%) on the most discounted commercially-available round brilliants? Does it explain better why some sort of consumer protection message - such as the Podcast - can serve to protect people shopping today?

John,

I have quite different numbers for AGS, HRD, GIA, IGI
I do not like publish its without link to source.
I think Rapnet and Idex has not representative database

Separately we need discuss data from PS.
we need separate number diamond in list and number diamonds had been sold from same list

PS could have 200.000 GIA diamonds in list what will do not sell in PS during years and 2000 AGS which will sell each few weeks

Do you see difference.

BTW do you have AGS and GIA revenue? I think GIA publish such information

Serg,

You did not believe IDEX and you asked for Pricescope. I provided that info as well as Rap. This afternoon I pulled from Polygon. It's the same: 1.2%

These are four different listing services and I believe they are the largest in this country.

Please provide the different numbers you have and the source. When you have done that we may continue.

John,

Yes, I do not believe in your method because:

1) I see how many cutters cut Ideal round cut

What diamonds does Eurostar cut ? ( 1bln revenue)
It is just one company

There are huge number diamonds below 0.5 ct now which have not any grading report, but they have H&A pattern and AGS0 proportions
I see what more and more Indians cutters try follow ASG rules in Last 1-2 years .It is very big shift . You can not see it yet in any your statistic

2) Revenue AGS is much bigger than 3% from GIA Revenue . GIA has +_100M. AGS could has +-10M( may be even more,but may be much less. I have not current data for AGS). If I am not wrong AGS has 4m in 2000year( but may be just 1M) , ASG double revenue each year in 1996-2000. Of course AGS can not double revenue each your until 2007, but AGS increase business a lot from 2004

3) A lot of diamonds with Ideal proportions can not receive AGS0 due polish and symmetry AGS rules. But it same commodity diamonds. You speak about volume AGS diamonds, I speak about diamonds with Ideal proportion

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Date: 8/18/2008 4:40:56 PM
Author: John Pollard

As shown in my post just above, maybe 2% of diamonds are ever graded by AGS. Clearly, 2% is not nearly enough to influence the market-at-large and is certainly does not equate to “mass production” as the graphic implies.

You say potato, I say potato

John Sergey''s point is valid - if it were not then you would not have recorded the podcast because no one would be trying to pass off ideal cuts that were not graded by AGS.

Diamonds cut, or attempted to be cut, to AGS proportions are a mass market commodity. There must be thousands of old rough diamond scanners (they take a long time to wear out) that are still programmed with the old parametric pre 2005 proportions. Storm is correct too that there could be myriads of more interesting options to make those roughs into.

It was not planned by AGS, but their position in the market, and the percieved premium, made it just too attractive - just as the French make wine with bubbles and get to charge 5x more for it - and everyone else try''s to get a piece of the same margin.
Me too, me too

 

[Serg]

Date: 8/18/2008 7:50:00 PM
Author: Wink

Date: 8/18/2008 7:21:51 PM
Author: Serg

Date: 8/18/2008 7:09:58 PM
Author: Wink

Date: 8/18/2008 6:18:10 PM
Author: whatmeworry
I think we''re glossing over an important point that Serg made.
Telling consumers to buy a certain brand (lab or diamond manufacture or vendor) imparts no real knowledge on how to buy a diamond with confidence. It''s telling consumers to swim in my pool and you''ll be safe from the sharks, instead of really teaching them to SWIM on their own. Teaching them what to look for when evaluating a diamond. my little rant.

Sigh.

When you go to look at one of Paul''s stones, each and every one comes with a picture of the AGS report, an idealscope, an ASET, a sarin report, a highly magnified picture, a gem adviser report, and a Hearts and Arrows image.

What about this information is not helping the client learn to swim?

Wink on his own little rant

Wink,

When I buy Watch( Vine) seller has not so many documents( confirmation what I buy “Real Ideal” watch )
Even if watch ( Vine) is very expansive


In same time you have much bigger range of Luxury goods and real confidence( when I buy watch)
Why do diamonds need so many document to create consumer confidence?


Why consumer confidence is low when he buy diamonds( Even if he buy AGS0)?
Wink , I believe what you do best , but why do you need so many documents ? It is abnormal , It is just show how is low consumer confidence


How is big paper input to consumer confidence?

I am not a watch guy, so I can not answer that part of your question.

As for why so much paperwork on a diamond? Who knows. My internet clients ask for it so I provide it. My in house clients look at the diamonds, I don''t remember actually ever showing one a sarin report. I let them look at the live ASET, and the liive diamonds. If they want to go home I can print out all of the information that Paul provides for them if they like.

I guess it would be like me going to buy something on the Internet that I knew nothing about. I would want all the information that I could find to be as sure as I could be that I was not getting cheated.

Wink

Re:Who knows.

Wink,

Is answer below? :

Could you Proof to consumer without “papers, IS, ASET,..” what P41Cr34.6 is better than P41.5Cr34.5?

Both stones have H&A pattern
( I do not say what P41.5Cr34.5 is better than P41Cr34.6, or same or worse. I am asking could you proof to consumer what P41Cr34.6 is better than P41.5Cr34.5 in your store without “Papers ”)

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 8/19/2008 3:28:05 AM
Author: Serg

Could you Proof to consumer without “papers, IS, ASET,..” what P41Cr34.6 is better than P41.5Cr34.5?


Both stones have H&A pattern

( I do not say what P41.5Cr34.5 is better than P41Cr34.6, or same or worse. I am asking could you proof to consumer what P41Cr34.6 is better than P41.5Cr34.5 in your store without “Papers ”)

With someone who has good eyesight and was interested in learning with a 1ct stone I could.
I could keep a bright red notebook handy on my desk and show them this to demonstrate leakage then put both in a ring type stone holder and ask them to look at the area that was red with the rings on their finger.
Then they will hate the darkness in the P41.5Cr34.5 and buy the other one.

 

[strmrdr]

If I wanted to convince them the other way I could have a bright desk lamp on and a bit dark above them with just some light over their shoulder so they look at the stone with the culet facing the desk light.
I have had this done to me by a sales person and he asked me what I was scowling about.

This is one trick that AGS Ideal does help protect against.

 

[Maisie]

Date: 8/18/2008 6:18:10 PM
Author: whatmeworry
I think we're glossing over an important point that Serg made.
Telling consumers to buy a certain brand (lab or diamond manufacture or vendor) imparts no real knowledge on how to buy a diamond with confidence. It's telling consumers to swim in my pool and you'll be safe from the sharks, instead of really teaching them to SWIM on their own. Teaching them what to look for when evaluating a diamond. my little rant.

I am also completely out of my depth in this discussion but I can talk from a consumer point of view.

If I am going to buy a car I don't go and learn how it is put together. I am happy to go with the best I can afford. If there was a grading system for cars it would make my life so much easier! In the same way I simply can't understand how the numbers work for diamonds. Its just beyond me. I have difficulties with mathematics and I think you need a certain level of intelligence to understand how to choose a well cut diamond. (I am not saying that anyone who does not understand the way diamond numbers work is not intelligent.. i am referring to my level of intelligence!)

There are men (and women) who aren't interested in the ins and outs of a diamond and how its cut. They are more interested in just buying the best for their money. It could be the only diamond they are ever going to buy - so it seems a waste of time for them to learn so much.

By having the grading systems in place for Ideal cut diamonds, it means that the people who aren't interested in being diamond educated can be assured that they are spending their money on the best there is.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Date: 8/19/2008 7:30:06 AM
Author: Maisie

Date: 8/18/2008 6:18:10 PM
Author: whatmeworry
I think we''re glossing over an important point that Serg made.
Telling consumers to buy a certain brand (lab or diamond manufacture or vendor) imparts no real knowledge on how to buy a diamond with confidence. It''s telling consumers to swim in my pool and you''ll be safe from the sharks, instead of really teaching them to SWIM on their own. Teaching them what to look for when evaluating a diamond. my little rant.

I am also completely out of my depth in this discussion but I can talk from a consumer point of view.

If I am going to buy a car I don''t go and learn how it is put together. I am happy to go with the best I can afford. If there was a grading system for cars it would make my life so much easier! In the same way I simply can''t understand how the numbers work for diamonds. Its just beyond me. I have difficulties with mathematics and I think you need a certain level of intelligence to understand how to choose a well cut diamond. (I am not saying that anyone who does not understand the way diamond numbers work is not intelligent.. i am referring to my level of intelligence!)

There are men (and women) who aren''t interested in the ins and outs of a diamond and how its cut. They are more interested in just buying the best for their money. It could be the only diamond they are ever going to buy - so it seems a waste of time for them to learn so much.

By having the grading systems in place for Ideal cut diamonds, it means that the people who aren''t interested in being diamond educated can be assured that they are spending their money on the best there is.

Maisie what is the perfect car, the ideal car?
I think the answer depends on you and you, your price range, amount of use, fuel consumption impediments, life stage and many other factors.
There is no ideal car. Anyone who tells you there is is a snake oil saleperson. You or your partner or brother would probably use a service like this to narrrow down a range, and then test drive 2 or 3 cars?

http://www.wheelsmag.com.au/Road_Tests/Audi+enters+compact+SUV+market+with+Q5+.html?open&pagenum=3&fullarticle=yes

 

[Maisie]

Thanks for that Garry! Most helpful!

 

[Serg]

Date: 8/19/2008 4:43:39 AM
Author: strmrdr
If I wanted to convince them the other way I could have a bright desk lamp on and a bit dark above them with just some light over their shoulder so they look at the stone with the culet facing the desk light.
I have had this done to me by a sales person and he asked me what I was scowling about.

This is one trick that AGS Ideal does help protect against.

Karl, You use mono vision( Cyclop) picture. For stereovision White +Black =White
You can not receive two full dark cycles for both eyes in same time for P41.5Cr34.5

 

[stone_seeker]

Date: 8/18/2008 4:12:14 PM
Author: John Pollard

Date: 8/16/2008 12:59:37 AM
Author: Serg

John,

1) Does WF or Infinity publish diamonds on Rap, Idex?
2) Did you search on PS?

Serg,

I went ahead and pulled today''s figures from the largest trading networks available: Rap, Pricescope and IDEX.

Total rounds listed on Pricescope > 260,000
Total graded by AGS = 1824 or < 1%
Total listed as AGS0 = 686 or < 1%

Total rounds listed on RapNet >250,000
Total graded by AGS = 911 or < 1%
Total listed as AGS0 = 716 or < 1%

Total rounds listed on IDEX >163,000
Total graded by AGS = 3240 or 2.0%
Total listed as AGS0 = 2216 or 1.4%

The IDEX numbers agre with the graphic from theirJuly article, posted below. However, IDEX is obviously not accounting for all IGI reports (they may not include the widely proliferated ‘credit card’ report or ‘report-appraisal’ formats used in US mall stores?).
This means AGS may have less market share than the 1.6% indicated, which would be in-line with the numbers from PS and Rap.

Looking at RapNet numbers, 911 are graded by AGS, of that amount 79% are AGS0. Why are so many AGS grades AGS0? Why have a grade at all of 78% of the time it will be graded AGS0 - seems like you dont bring your round to AGS unless you have a fairly certain sense it will be an AGS0

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Date: 8/19/2008 8:36:50 AM
Author: stone_seeker

- seems like you dont bring your round to AGS unless you have a fairly certain sense it will be an AGS0

You get email / phone notofication of the verbal - and agree to pay for the full report, or cut your losses and send it to another lab.

 

[stone_seeker]

Date: 8/19/2008 7:30:06 AM
Author: Maisie

Date: 8/18/2008 6:18:10 PM
Author: whatmeworry
I think we''re glossing over an important point that Serg made.
Telling consumers to buy a certain brand (lab or diamond manufacture or vendor) imparts no real knowledge on how to buy a diamond with confidence. It''s telling consumers to swim in my pool and you''ll be safe from the sharks, instead of really teaching them to SWIM on their own. Teaching them what to look for when evaluating a diamond. my little rant.

I am also completely out of my depth in this discussion but I can talk from a consumer point of view.

If I am going to buy a car I don''t go and learn how it is put together. I am happy to go with the best I can afford. If there was a grading system for cars it would make my life so much easier! In the same way I simply can''t understand how the numbers work for diamonds. Its just beyond me. I have difficulties with mathematics and I think you need a certain level of intelligence to understand how to choose a well cut diamond. (I am not saying that anyone who does not understand the way diamond numbers work is not intelligent.. i am referring to my level of intelligence!)

There are men (and women) who aren''t interested in the ins and outs of a diamond and how its cut. They are more interested in just buying the best for their money. It could be the only diamond they are ever going to buy - so it seems a waste of time for them to learn so much.

By having the grading systems in place for Ideal cut diamonds, it means that the people who aren''t interested in being diamond educated can be assured that they are spending their money on the best there is.

This may have been the original point 12 pages ago. Some vendors are mis-using the word ideal. The word is intended to provide us consumers with some level of comfort that the cut is of a standard that implies certain beauty. Like a restaurant that gets 3 or 4 diamonds by AAA. But then the thread went on a tangent saying so called ideals arent the only beautiful stones - which is true - but we have no way of knowing that without gaining some knowledge.

The debate has been going on for a week now because there is no right answer and vendors will do what they can to sell what they have - be it a true ideal or frozen spit they call ideal. Further, this system only works for one or two cuts leaving fancy shape seekers peeing in the wind.

 

[stone_seeker]

Date: 8/19/2008 7:30:06 AM
Author: Maisie

Date: 8/18/2008 6:18:10 PM
Author: whatmeworry
I think we''re glossing over an important point that Serg made.
Telling consumers to buy a certain brand (lab or diamond manufacture or vendor) imparts no real knowledge on how to buy a diamond with confidence. It''s telling consumers to swim in my pool and you''ll be safe from the sharks, instead of really teaching them to SWIM on their own. Teaching them what to look for when evaluating a diamond. my little rant.

I am also completely out of my depth in this discussion but I can talk from a consumer point of view.

If I am going to buy a car I don''t go and learn how it is put together. I am happy to go with the best I can afford. If there was a grading system for cars it would make my life so much easier! In the same way I simply can''t understand how the numbers work for diamonds. Its just beyond me. I have difficulties with mathematics and I think you need a certain level of intelligence to understand how to choose a well cut diamond. (I am not saying that anyone who does not understand the way diamond numbers work is not intelligent.. i am referring to my level of intelligence!)

There are men (and women) who aren''t interested in the ins and outs of a diamond and how its cut. They are more interested in just buying the best for their money. It could be the only diamond they are ever going to buy - so it seems a waste of time for them to learn so much.

By having the grading systems in place for Ideal cut diamonds, it means that the people who aren''t interested in being diamond educated can be assured that they are spending their money on the best there is.

ALso, I made this comparison on page 2 about cars - with a car you are protected by state lemon laws since having a faulty car could be a safety issue if you break down. No such law exists for luxury goods. the only laws we may get protection from are false advertising laws where vendors are intentionally misleading customers.

 

[stone_seeker]

Date: 8/19/2008 8:49:00 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)

Date: 8/19/2008 8:36:50 AM
Author: stone_seeker

- seems like you dont bring your round to AGS unless you have a fairly certain sense it will be an AGS0

You get email / phone notofication of the verbal - and agree to pay for the full report, or cut your losses and send it to another lab.

interesting.....so a cutter can pick his/her best report.

 

[purrfectpear]

Date: 8/19/2008 9:08:01 AM
Author: stone_seeker

ALso, I made this comparison on page 2 about cars - with a car you are protected by state lemon laws since having a faulty car could be a safety issue if you break down. No such law exists for luxury goods. the only laws we may get protection from are false advertising laws where vendors are intentionally misleading customers.

Not exactly a good comparison. Lemon laws do not protect you from buyer''s remorse, they only protect you from a car that does not run properly.

People who buy less than ideal cut diamonds would not be protected by a Lemon law. They looked at the diamond, liked the diamond, bought the diamond, and it functions like a diamond. A Lemon law would protect them from undisclosed things like fake certifications, clarity enhancements, chips, etc.

Pricescope is full of people who purchased their diamonds with their own eyes and were perfectly happy until they discovered HCA and found their diamond was above the magic 2.0. Suddenly that which they loved for months or years became bad, worthless, and no longer brought a smile to their face. I submit that those are not Lemons and do not need to be covered by a Lemon law. Cut may be king, but people who let numbers spoil something they were happy with yesterday...well, that''s just sad.

 

[WinkHPD]

Date: 8/19/2008 9:10:55 AM
Author: stone_seeker

Date: 8/19/2008 8:49:00 AM

Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)

Date: 8/19/2008 8:36:50 AM

Author: stone_seeker


- seems like you dont bring your round to AGS unless you have a fairly certain sense it will be an AGS0

You get email / phone notofication of the verbal - and agree to pay for the full report, or cut your losses and send it to another lab.

interesting.....so a cutter can pick his/her best report.

And so it is. Why do you think there is such a big market for EGL and IGI? It is NOT because they do a better job of grading diamonds.

 

[stone_seeker]

Date: 8/19/2008 9:25:59 AM
Author: purrfectpear

Date: 8/19/2008 9:08:01 AM
Author: stone_seeker

ALso, I made this comparison on page 2 about cars - with a car you are protected by state lemon laws since having a faulty car could be a safety issue if you break down. No such law exists for luxury goods. the only laws we may get protection from are false advertising laws where vendors are intentionally misleading customers.

Not exactly a good comparison. Lemon laws do not protect you from buyer''s remorse, they only protect you from a car that does not run properly.

People who buy less than ideal cut diamonds would not be protected by a Lemon law. They looked at the diamond, liked the diamond, bought the diamond, and it functions like a diamond. A Lemon law would protect them from undisclosed things like fake certifications, clarity enhancements, chips, etc.

Pricescope is full of people who purchased their diamonds with their own eyes and were perfectly happy until they discovered HCA and found their diamond was above the magic 2.0. Suddenly that which they loved for months or years became bad, worthless, and no longer brought a smile to their face. I submit that those are not Lemons and do not need to be covered by a Lemon law. Cut may be king, but people who let numbers spoil something they were happy with yesterday...well, that''s just sad.

The point I was trying to make was that a "lemon law" would protect me from buying an "ideal" labeled stone that was nowhere close. That isnt buyers remorse that is protecting a consumer who just got swindled because they heard that they should buy ideal cut stones and so a vendor called their stone ideal but it has 70% depth and a host of other "non-deal" features.

 

[purrfectpear]

I understand what you are saying but as we''ve already discussed numerous times in this thread, the term "Ideal" is not copyrighted/trademarked or protected in any way, shape, or form, and cannot be at this late date. AGS is welcome to trademark AGS000, or some other designator, as are individual diamond marketers. The term Ideal cannot. A Lemon law will not make that happen.

 

[stone_seeker]

Date: 8/19/2008 10:07:01 AM
Author: purrfectpear
I understand what you are saying but as we''ve already discussed numerous times in this thread, the term ''Ideal'' is not copyrighted/trademarked or protected in any way, shape, or form, and cannot be at this late date. AGS is welcome to trademark AGS000, or some other designator, as are individual diamond marketers. The term Ideal cannot. A Lemon law will not make that happen.

Agree. That has been discussed ad nauseam. In all fairness, outside of the intellectual discourse between the handful of experts on this thread, the end result is the consumers are no better off.

The .01% (i''m being generous) of diamond purchasers who find Pricescope (no offense to PS, but most guys just dont care or dont know or wouldnt think of it) and ultimately learn who AGS is will not need consumer protection because they will have information prior to purchase.

The rest of the 99.99% of diamond buyers this year will either buy from a Tiffany and pay a premium and hopefully get an ok stone, or overpay for a mediocre cut stone at some mall store or diamond district swindler calling their jewelry ideal or otherwise. At some point the intended recipient will find PS or some other diamond education resource, learn that their stone isnt "ideal" and then get an upgrade - so hooray for the sellers of all diamonds as they just sold 2 stones instead of one.

Those who never find such resoruce go on with life thinking they are wearing an ideal diamond which sparkles from time to time and probably isnt as sparkly as their neighbor''s maybe because its dirty or the way the earth is tilted that day. Either way, ignorance is bliss and who are we to spoil someone''s joy by saying they own something less than it is?

 

[denverappraiser]

Date: 8/19/2008 10:59:24 AM

The .01% (i'm being generous) of diamond purchasers who find Pricescope (no offense to PS, but most guys just dont care or dont know or wouldnt think of it)

You might be surprised. The reports in the magazines now are that 60% of the diamond purchases are preceded by Internet research. Do a Google search for pretty much any diamond related phrase, like for example 'ideal cut' or 'AGS000' and it’s hard not to come across Pricescope.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Jewelry Appraisals in Denver

 

[stone_seeker]

Date: 8/19/2008 11:28:35 AM
Author: denverappraiser

Date: 8/19/2008 10:59:24 AM

The .01% (i''m being generous) of diamond purchasers who find Pricescope (no offense to PS, but most guys just dont care or dont know or wouldnt think of it)

You might be surprised. The reports in the magazines now are that 60% of the diamond purchases are preceded by Internet research. Do a Google search for pretty much any diamond related phrase, like for example ''ideal cut'' or ''AGS000'' and it’s hard not to come across Pricescope.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Jewelry Appraisals in Denver

If someone is typing AGS000 they probably dont need that much info. I''ve been on here for months and I barely know what that means. Most internet searches go over the 4c''s and cut being one of them. But that''s the one C that is a bit less objective and most of that 60% will trust their vendor when they say ideal. The .01% I speak of are those that spend months on Pricescope reading each thread about the type of stone they are interested in. But I assume most guys buying for their girlfriend rather spend that time on ESPN.com - sorry for the bad stereotype!

 

[denverappraiser]

Date: 8/19/2008 12:16:24 PM
Author: stone_seeker

Date: 8/19/2008 11:28:35 AM

Author: denverappraiser

Date: 8/19/2008 10:59:24 AM


The .01% (i'm being generous) of diamond purchasers who find Pricescope (no offense to PS, but most guys just dont care or dont know or wouldnt think of it)

You might be surprised. The reports in the magazines now are that 60% of the diamond purchases are preceded by Internet research. Do a Google search for pretty much any diamond related phrase, like for example 'ideal cut' or 'AGS000' and it’s hard not to come across Pricescope.


Neil Beaty

GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA

Professional Jewelry Appraisals in Denver

If someone is typing AGS000 they probably dont need that much info. I've been on here for months and I barely know what that means. Most internet searches go over the 4c's and cut being one of them. But that's the one C that is a bit less objective and most of that 60% will trust their vendor when they say ideal. The .01% I speak of are those that spend months on Pricescope reading each thread about the type of stone they are interested in. But I assume most guys buying for their girlfriend rather spend that time on ESPN.com - sorry for the bad stereotype!

With the possible exception of GIA and maybe bluenile, Pricescope is the top trafficked site for diamond research there is. It’s true that not most people never make a single post, much less reach the 1,000 post level or choose to read every post but there are a LOT of lurkers around here. I think you’re seriously underestimating the power of this place.

If you were researching diamonds on the Internet after listening to a salespitch at a store, what would you Google?

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Jewelry Appraisals in Denver

 

[stone_seeker]

Date: 8/19/2008 2:40:44 PM
Author: denverappraiser

Date: 8/19/2008 12:16:24 PM
Author: stone_seeker

Date: 8/19/2008 11:28:35 AM

Author: denverappraiser

Date: 8/19/2008 10:59:24 AM


The .01% (i''m being generous) of diamond purchasers who find Pricescope (no offense to PS, but most guys just dont care or dont know or wouldnt think of it)

You might be surprised. The reports in the magazines now are that 60% of the diamond purchases are preceded by Internet research. Do a Google search for pretty much any diamond related phrase, like for example ''ideal cut'' or ''AGS000'' and it’s hard not to come across Pricescope.


Neil Beaty

GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA

Professional Jewelry Appraisals in Denver

If someone is typing AGS000 they probably dont need that much info. I''ve been on here for months and I barely know what that means. Most internet searches go over the 4c''s and cut being one of them. But that''s the one C that is a bit less objective and most of that 60% will trust their vendor when they say ideal. The .01% I speak of are those that spend months on Pricescope reading each thread about the type of stone they are interested in. But I assume most guys buying for their girlfriend rather spend that time on ESPN.com - sorry for the bad stereotype!

With the possible exception of GIA and maybe bluenile, Pricescope is the top trafficked site for diamond research there is. It’s true that not most people never make a single post, much less reach the 1,000 post level or choose to read every post but there are a LOT of lurkers around here. I think you’re seriously underestimating the power of this place.

If you were researching diamonds on the Internet after listening to a salespitch at a store, what would you Google?

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Jewelry Appraisals in Denver

I googled "engagement ring" and pricescope didnt come up in the first 10 pages. I also googled the word diamond - and pricescope was even further back. You saying that the average Joe Six-Pack is going to sift through 14 pages of google results to learn what is real ideal vs. ideal?

There are too many paid vendors wanting that top spot on google search who want you to buy their so called ideal stones that they offer all the advice you need to know on their site about the 4 C''s.

I''m not underestimating the powr of PS - I wish more people did. I just think the 60% of online research you quoted probably is mostly reading up bluenile''s section on what to look for in a diamond section which was the point of this thread and how some vendors mislead when it comes to ideal cut.