OEC cut quality and finding a diamond with max fire

[dropsonde]

I'm looking to put together an engagement ring with an OEC diamond and CvB solitaire. I'm definitely a newbie and have no idea what I'm doing, but have been digging in the archives for the past couple of weeks as best I can to figure out a road map for this process.

In finding the right diamond, I understand that OECs are their own special animal and the tools available for modern brilliants like the HCA tool, etc. don't really apply to OECs. So I'm not sure how to find a diamond with excellent cut quality that flashes a lot of fire (assuming those two qualities are one and the same).

I found the screening chart for OEC diamonds but that's really the only resource I've found for assessing cut. Are there any other tools or techniques that I can rely on? Given my inexperience, I can't trust assessing fire with my eyes through pictures or videos so looking for all the help I can get.

Thanks so much for the help!

 

[foxinsox]

Since you're going with Caysie already for the setting, I would contact her to see if she can find you a stone or any of the specialists like Adam at Old World Diamonds, Grace at Jewels by Grace or Erica at Love Affair Diamonds.
Good Old Gold and Victor Canera also cut their own OECs which are cut to have optimum light performance so they're another choice if you don't have to have a true antique (although I believe they stock true antique stones as well). Also they custom cut if you can't find exactly what you're after.
All of the people mentioned will be honest and upfront about the qualities of the stones they've got and whether they meet your requirements.

 

[Sagefemme]

I think most would agree that no charts, numbers, or descriptors (fair, good, very good, etc) tell the story with OECs. You have to have them in front of you, in different lighting conditions, to make a choice. Although both Grace and Erica (mentioned above) make videos that are very helpful. I chose my OEC by having 3 candidates in front of me, and comparing in all lighting situations I encounter (home, work, outside, etc). Mine is from Old World diamonds and it never ceases to amaze me in the fire and brightness department.

This picture doesn't begin to do it justice. She is fiery!

 

[mochiko42]

If you want a diamond with OEC faceting but ideal performance, the simplest way would be to look at Good Old Gold's AVR or Victor Canera's CAR, as suggested by foxinsox. You get the best of both worlds (vintage style faceting but with modern precision cutting & ideal light performance).

 

[soxfan]

Budget? Size?

 

[dropsonde]

Thanks for all your replies!

Mochiko42 and foxinsox, unfortunately I don't think a "modern cut" OEC would fly with my girlfriend. I like the idea of having a guarantee of the cut and light performance but the diamond being vintage is a big part of the appeal to my girlfriend (and her style).

That said, it's disappointing to there aren't any reliable tools besides relying on the reputation of a vendor and/or the eye test since I have zero experience with visually asessing diamonds. This especially kills me because I'm a data-loving engineer. LOL

Sagefemme, I appreciate your suggestion--that's one I hadn't considered. How did you select the three diamonds you evaluated side-by-side? Did they all come from OWD or did you mix and match vendors? (Gorgeous ring, BTW. I'm going with the CvB Chloe setting and seeing yours evokes some style similarities.)

 

[dropsonde]

Soxfan: 1.3-ish carats, $8k-$10k. Color not super critical, comfortable in the J range.

 

[soxfan]

GORGEOUS diamond:

http://www.loveaffairdiamonds.com/1-26ct-old-european-cut-diamond-ags-k-vs1/

 

[soxfan]

other options:

http://www.jewelsbygrace.com/loose-...d-european-cut-diamond-gia-k-vs1#.WNFKtXeZORs

http://www.jewelsbygrace.com/loose-...d-european-cut-diamond-gia-k-si1#.WNFLDXeZORs

http://www.jewelsbygrace.com/loose-...d-european-cut-diamond-gia-j-vs1#.WNFLNHeZORs

 

[gretag]

Thanks for all your replies!
That said, it's disappointing to there aren't any reliable tools besides relying on the reputation of a vendor and/or the eye test since I have zero experience with visually asessing diamonds. This especially kills me because I'm a data-loving engineer. LOL

That isn't true, an ASET works just as well on an OEC as it does on a MRB.
You can buy one yourself and view the diamonds in person or a lot of the PS vendors have them.

Don't let anyone tell you the "rules" for an OEC light return are different that is nonsense. What is different is the standards and expectations, they are naturally as old cuts are imperfect/assymetrical and the selection is more limited.

 

[dropsonde]

Thanks soxfan for the suggestions. Am I right to assume that your assessments are based off the pictures and videos and not any particular diamond specs? Being someone with no experience with diamonds, I'm curious what diamond qualities make your first recommendation so attractive to you?

Would love to hear any other insights from any other OEC vets about soxfan's suggestions if you're willing to share. Thanks for your patience in helping a newbie like me learn!

 

[dropsonde]

That isn't true, an ASET works just as well on an OEC as it does on a MRB.
You can buy one yourself and view the diamonds in person or a lot of the PS vendors have them.

Don't let anyone tell you the "rules" for an OEC light return are different that is nonsense. What is different is the standards and expectations, they are naturally as old cuts are imperfect/assymetrical and the selection is more limited.

Got it. I roughly understand the qualities of a good ASET image for a MRB but what would one look like for a desirable OEC, i.e., what is the tipping point for the degree of flaws for an excellent OEC performer to a good performer?

 

[gretag]

Got it. I roughly understand the qualities of a good ASET image for a MRB but what would one look like for a desirable OEC, i.e., what is the tipping point for the degree of flaws for an excellent OEC performer to a good performer?

Red from edge to edge and seen on the bezels and upper girdles all the way to the edge is pretty important.
Some blue/black is expected and usual but hopefully not a persistant bowtie which you should always ask the vendor about.

 

[Ariadne_Theia]

I don't think OECs have bowties? I thought that was something found in the elongated shapes like oval and marquise.

 

[soxfan]

There are no bowties in any OEC's. Bowties are something you have to watch for in fancy cuts- marquis, pear, oval.

 

[Queenie60]

OP - I would suggest you look at several OEC's to decide which "pattern" you like to see. Some have very flowery looks; some have a more "pinwheel" look and there are other terms that I don't know. When I was searching, my comfort level eased after speaking with Erica at Love Affair Diamonds. She handpicks her stones and is very honest about their looks and helping you find what you're looking for. I would suggest you give her a call. She was most generous with her time when I was looking and took the time to educate me over the phone. Personally, she's the first person I reach out to when considering a new antique stone. Good luck, I hope you find just what you're looking for. It's a fun search!

 

[soxfan]

dropsonde, yes, I chose those stones because I could tell from the images they are good ones. I have 3 old cuts and I've worked with Erica from Love Affair Diamonds. She has a great eye. That J is a stunner.

 

[dropsonde]

Soxfan: Thanks for all your input.

And thanks to the other commenters as well. This has been helpful.

 

[sweetpea&babycorn]

OP - I would suggest you look at several OEC's to decide which "pattern" you like to see. Some have very flowery looks; some have a more "pinwheel" look and there are other terms that I don't know. When I was searching, my comfort level eased after speaking with Erica at Love Affair Diamonds. She handpicks her stones and is very honest about their looks and helping you find what you're looking for. I would suggest you give her a call. She was most generous with her time when I was looking and took the time to educate me over the phone. Personally, she's the first person I reach out to when considering a new antique stone. Good luck, I hope you find just what you're looking for. It's a fun search!

^agree with this 100%. OECs being old cut stones each have their own amazing personality. What you want to avoid are the ones with nailheads, fisheye, and lack of on/off facet flashes around the table of the stone. In addition to the pinwheel pattern, there's checkerboard, flowery, and I'm sure more. Erica is based in the Seattle area so if you live around there I'm sure she'd be more than willing to show you her stones. Other well-known antique diamond dealers include Jewels by Grace (near LA?), SingleStone in LA, Old World Diamonds in NYC, Good Old Gold on Long Island NY

 

[EvaEvans]

dropsonde, let me tell you MY OEC specifications, this is my personal liking:
* I'm looking to see on the lab certificate: symmetry: at least GOOD; and Good to Very good polish. I found out that some diamonds with "fair" symmetry could be also very nice diamonds, depends of the personal judgment and liking.
* I'm looking for OEC with very rounded shape (aspect ratio of the two diameter dimensions no more than 1.1)
* I like slightly deeper stones (depth: 65-68%)
* I like small table (44-48%), I wouldn't buy OEC with table over 50%, but again, this is my personal taste.
* Tall crown (19-21%), aspect ratio pavilion:crown no more than 1:2.3 (there are stones with swallow crown and large pavilion, I don't like these). Crown : pavilion have to be good proportioned.
* Culet size: no more than "slightly large", preferably "medium"
However, I strongly agree that the best picker of OEC is the customer's eye and heart!

 

[dropsonde]

What you want to avoid are the ones with nailheads, fisheye, and lack of on/off facet flashes around the table of the stone. In addition to the pinwheel pattern, there's checkerboard, flowery, and I'm sure more.

I'm so new to OECs (and diamonds in general) I don't have the eye to see these patterns yet. Unfortunately I'm in Texas and not anywhere near those vendors -- wish I could see in person and increase my knowledge.

dropsonde, let me tell you MY OEC specifications, this is my personal liking:
* I'm looking to see on the lab certificate: symmetry: at least GOOD; and Good to Very good polish. I found out that some diamonds with "fair" symmetry could be also very nice diamonds, depends of the personal judgment and liking.
* I'm looking for OEC with very rounded shape (aspect ratio of the two diameter dimensions no more than 1.1)
* I like slightly deeper stones (depth: 65-68%)
* I like small table (44-48%), I wouldn't buy OEC with table over 50%, but again, this is my personal taste.
* Tall crown (19-21%), aspect ratio pavilion:crown no more than 1:2.3 (there are stones with swallow crown and large pavilion, I don't like these). Crown : pavilion have to be good proportioned.
* Culet size: no more than "slightly large", preferably "medium"
However, I strongly agree that the best picker of OEC is the customer's eye and heart!

I appreciate this! Thank you. So I understand, these are your personal likes for aesthetics and not necessarily light performance, correct? And I'm curious about your preference for a smaller table -- what stokes that interest? The screening chart interestingly downgrades OECs with smaller tables.

 

[EvaEvans]

dropsonde, perfect light performance could be achieved with different cut proportions, that's right. Example: 2+8=10, 4+6=10, 5+5=10...... multiplication of different numbers gives equal score of 10........that says, you can achieve excellent light performance with different proportions!
But what is typical for the OEC vs MRB is: smaller table, deeper depth, tall crown. Some people like so called Transitional cut, that has larger than the OEC table, and not so deep depth.
I have seen OEC and Transitional cut diamonds both with excellent light performance.
How to distinguish the best light performance? Looking straight to the diamond, you should see almost all diamond area in evenly distributed light. If you see obvious dark area or too bright area especially in the center of the diamond, this means not good light return. Light has to be distributed evenly over the diamond face, steep contrast areas are not desirable.

The screening chart interestingly downgrades OECs with smaller tables.

I don't understand what do you mean, what chart? Only MRB diamonds have such proportion charts...not the OEC. OEC are not classified, they are OLD cut diamonds, many of them are cut over a 100 years ago, by hand, and one another are not the same...

 

[dropsonde]

I don't understand what do you mean, what chart?

It's the OEC screening chart I referenced in my first post that I found on Pricescope.

I found the screening chart for OEC diamonds but that's really the only resource I've found for assessing cut.

 

[arkieb1]

If you want a perfectly cut stone go for a new old cut from Victor Canera or Good Old Gold. No it's not antique but it looks like a perfectly cut one and unless you tell her all she will think is that's a magnificent Antique stone or you can say you wanted to buy something that was perfect.

Next point there are NO rules when it comes to OECS, some perform better when they have big crowns, small tables and a bit of depth, but they can be too deep and there are only general guides because these stones were cut by hand so for many of them the "rules" so to speak don't work. Transitionals (between an OEC and modern round brilliants) are different again the can be shallower in the lower half and have big tables and still perform like you would not believe. Old mine cuts are another barrel of fish again.

Give us the size, colour and general stats of what you want or the budget you want to stick to and people will link nice stones.

 

[gretag]

There are no bowties in any OEC's. Bowties are something you have to watch for in fancy cuts- marquis, pear, oval.

A bowtie (shaped like a bowtie) is caused by obstruction, a darker region in the diamond that often reflects your head(which blocks light) or whatever is found perpendicular to the diamond.

Obstruction and persistant darkness in the mains can be a problem with OECs and Antique cushions, and is observed as blue or black in the ASET. It may or may not be a problem depending on how persistent the darkness is when the diamond is tilted slightly.

 

[EvaEvans]

dropsonde, that article that you point out is too OLD information (from 2005), GIA lab have already dismissed to grade the cut of the OEC diamonds.
NO CUT GRADE FOR OEC!
What GIA lab grades is symmetry and polish ONLY.

 

[LightBright]

I have a couple thoughts. First, the advice you've been given is great.

For an e-ring, with your size criteria and budget I might try to get a whiter stone, perhaps an H. I say this because for some people, color really does make an impact on performance. And eventually, your girlfriend may actually grow to want a whiter stone.

Any of the old cut vendors mentioned will help you find a well performing stone. If you stay with Erica, Grace or Adam, they have ALREADY selected stones they think are good performers. Any stone you buy from them will be pretty and bright. Ask them their advice so they can direct you to specific stones. I suggest picking a stone you like from their photos and videos then have them send it to you for an in-person inspection. The process is very easy.

I'd let your girlfriend be involved in the stone selection process.

Another option is to go look at old cuts in your city. Find the top three antique jewelry vendors and go down to see them. Pawn shops also have old cuts. You could start looking in your own town! You might even find an antique stone in an antique setting you love.

In terms of light performance. The difference is in the CUT. The classic OEC cut was described above. The small table and high crown of an OEC creates a fiery stone, one that throws off a lot of colored light. The large table and shallower crown and pavillion of a Transitional cut creates a very bright stone with a whiter appearance. Both are beautiful. To tell you the truth, with old cuts you just have to see it, you can't really discern from numbers how you will respond. Even if you wanted an ASET or Idealscope you likely couldn't get one easily. The vendors listed above could tell you with their eyes what their best performing stones are.

Last, if you feel really strongly about optimal light performance, I'd consider Good Old Gold's August Vintage Rounds or Cushions. You can look up examples on Pricescope or Pinterest. They look authentic and perform optimally. Read about why some of our most respected members chose an AV over an antique old cut, it will be interesting and informative for someone just learning about old cut stones. Even romantic old cut purists like myself have deep admiration for the August Vintage brand and I'd LOVE to own one.

Good luck, please post with your thoughts and photos and we are ready to help you find the perfect stone!!

 

[bunnycat]

If he's in TX like I am, his choices are low to nothing, unless he is near Dallas or Houston.. Dallas might have better luck.

The reason people say the "rules" don't work with OEC's/transitional/omcs is because they...don't.

There's no reliable cheat sheet for numbers like in a modern cut.

Nail head- you know it when you see it. Black hole smack in the center due to obstruction.

Fish eye- weird mushy look from girdle reflection inside the stone on over shallow stones.

If you want to pursue performance metrics I'd agree one of the vendors who does the modern OECs is a good way to go. Find an actual antique setting to put it in. Best of both worlds.

Or, ditch the cut guide and spend more time researching on here through the actual threads on old cuts and their quirks where there are lots of pictures and discussion going on. You'll learn more than you will trying to follow the numbers (an exercise in futility) on these old stones.

 

[bunnycat]

Im slowly going through looking for some of the old ones I recall

Obstruction:
https://www.pricescope.com/communit...truction-and-recut-information-advice.177197/

Dreamers guide: (gonna go review this one myself!)
https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/dreamers-old-cut-guide.178095/

OEC vs tranny vs omc

https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/oec-transitional-and-omc-comparison.172376/

 

[dropsonde]

Lightbright, very thoughtful and extremely helpful post, thank you. Re: color, in checking out the inventories of JBG and LAD, limited availability of H/I and higher -- a lot of J. Still you make a great point that I'll certainly take it into consideration. I wasn't originally considering a transitional but I'll now consider them because some are certainly beautiful to my inexperienced eye and still fire a lot of color. Such as these two, which I would love to hear opinions on:

http://www.loveaffairdiamonds.com/1-54ct-transitional-cut-diamond-ags-j-vs1/
http://www.jewelsbygrace.com/loose-...ansitional-cut-diamond-gia-h-vs1#.WNapgI61tdg

This OEC is a higher color per your suggestion but with lower clarity. Also doesn't have that small table, high crown and GOOD symmetry per EvaEvans suggestions. Still, would also love to hear opinions on it:

http://www.jewelsbygrace.com/loose-...-34ct-old-european-cut-gia-g-si2#.WNapWY61tdg

This OEC does have the small table and higher crown with VERY GOOD polish, although FAIR symmetry:

http://www.jewelsbygrace.com/loose-...d-european-cut-diamond-gia-i-vs1#.WNapTo61tdg

The JBG J suggested by soxfan earlier in this thread is unfortunately gone.

I'll look into GOG's August Vintage line -- thanks. The appeal of true vintage to my girlfriend may be difficult to overcome though.

Bunnycat, I'm in Houston. If you or anyone can suggest resources local to me, I would definitely pursue them. Thanks also for the helpful descriptions and great links! I hadn't come across those in my archive searches. The comparison post has opened my eyes to transitional.