Old European Cut: Obstruction and recut information/advice

[Dreamer_D]

I don't want to talk to much about the details of this stone because I am still evaluating, but I need some advice and thought this was the best place to come.

This diamond has many things about it I really enjoy. It is a very lovely and symmetric shape. Has a nice thick -- super thick -- girdle free of damage. No inclusions under the table area. Pretty faceting and good light play in many lighting environments. Nice active edge to edge light play.

In some lighting there is no issue with obstruction. Specifically in indirect low lighting. Not surprising given the nature of these cuts.

BUT!

The under table facets are a little lazy. In some lighting the stone has fairly noticable obstruction issues, and the central facets are not overly active in strong overhead lighting. I am wondering if the experts think it is possible to recut this stone without too much weight loss and improve the under-table light return. Maintaining of course the appearance and antique look of the stone.

Some helpful information: Stone has a medium to very thick girdle, about 68% depth, 47% table, moderate crown height (see photo, my guess is 15%+).

I know the best way to tell is to unset the stone and have it evaluated. But I would need t onegotiate that with the seller and would rather have some information before I go that route.

First the glamourous shots showing the positives.

 

[Dreamer_D]

Re: Old European Cut: Obstruction and recut information/advi

Some more glamour, just because.

 

[Gypsy]

Re: Old European Cut: Obstruction and recut information/advi

Gahhhhhhhhhhhh!! That setting is killing me. I adore it. So gorgeous. No advice except send the pics to Brian and ask him what he thinks.

 

[Dreamer_D]

Re: Old European Cut: Obstruction and recut information/advi

The negatives.

Now, in the interest of edumacation, this darkening under the table is only *really* apparent when I tilt the stone towards me. All stones darken a little when you do this, but its more noticable in this stone that I personally enjoy.

The last shot is camera obstruction and purposely horrible looking.

 

[Dreamer_D]

Re: Old European Cut: Obstruction and recut information/advi

Here is a crown shot.

As additional information, you have to look for the obstruction, it is not apparent in general. The "laziness" under the table in overhead lighting is more obvious without looking. I notice it in my 7mm stone as well so not sure it is unique to this diamond

 

[Karl_K]

Re: Old European Cut: Obstruction and recut information/advi

can you take an ASET image?

 

[Dreamer_D]

Re: Old European Cut: Obstruction and recut information/advi

can you take an ASET image?

waaaah no! I dont own one!

 

[Dreamer_D]

Re: Old European Cut: Obstruction and recut information/advi

Gahhhhhhhhhhhh!! That setting is killing me. I adore it. So gorgeous. No advice except send the pics to Brian and ask him what he thinks.

Can he tell from a photo? Can he tell from examining a mounted stone -- did you ever do this?

Pity the mount is made for a smaller round stone. It really does not fit this one.

 

[Karl_K]

Re: Old European Cut: Obstruction and recut information/advi

can you take an ASET image?

waaaah no! I dont own one!

ok hmmmmm
Tried to model it in DC but that girdle is seriously wonky.
Lots of crown digging going on.
Will work on it again tomorrow when I am more awake.

 

[Dreamer_D]

Re: Old European Cut: Obstruction and recut information/advi

can you take an ASET image?

waaaah no! I dont own one!

ok hmmmmm
Tried to model it in DC but that girdle is seriously wonky.
Lots of crown digging going on.
Will work on it again tomorrow when I am more awake.

Oh you are such a prince! Yes, the girdle is huge and wonky donk.

 

[Gypsy]

Re: Old European Cut: Obstruction and recut information/advi

Gahhhhhhhhhhhh!! That setting is killing me. I adore it. So gorgeous. No advice except send the pics to Brian and ask him what he thinks.

One of my stones was mounted, he said it was worth the recut so I kept it, had him unmount it and recut it. I still have it. Great performer now too for all that it's hugely deep so it faces up small (always did, that's not because of the recut).

The mounting is too small? That's too bad because it is seriously gorgeous. Can you take a few shots of the mounting details?

 

[Laila619]

Re: Old European Cut: Obstruction and recut information/advi

No advice about a possible recut, but that OEC sure looks pretty (and huge) to me!

 

[Rhea]

Re: Old European Cut: Obstruction and recut information/advi

Gahhhhhhhhhhhh!! That setting is killing me. I adore it. So gorgeous. No advice except send the pics to Brian and ask him what he thinks.

Can he tell from a photo? Can he tell from examining a mounted stone -- did you ever do this?

Pity the mount is made for a smaller round stone. It really does not fit this one.

I sent him photos, but he couldn't tell from the photos. I sent the stone to him to get his advice and it came back as not a good candidate for recutting. I'm pretty sure he needs to see them to decide.

 

[Bella_mezzo]

Re: Old European Cut: Obstruction and recut information/advi

No advice, just sayin" that setting is .

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Re: Old European Cut: Obstruction and recut information/advi

I think it looks great in that setting! I have no advice other than Jon also can do recuts and he has a cutter cutting AVR's so you might want to ask him, too.

 

[Dreamer_D]

Re: Old European Cut: Obstruction and recut information/advi

OK OK I get it, the setting is DA BOMB I think everyone who has seen the mount slavers over it. The mount should hold a 7mm stone that is round IMO and this is an 8mm+ stone that is more elongated. The prongs cannot even hold it AND the center is tinted and contrasts badly with the melee. Anyways, glad the setting is a hit. It is a very nice, authentic antique.

I guess I need to think about it more. I am not sure that at the price I paid a recut is worthwhile. It is so hard to know.

 

[GemFever]

Re: Old European Cut: Obstruction and recut information/advi

This promises to be a very educational Old Cuts thread! I'll be following with interest, because my OMCs exhibit some of this behavior too, though it's not too bad. Thanks for the pics, they are great illustrations of the good and the bad.

I'm with the others who admire the setting. Beautiful.

 

[yssie]

Re: Old European Cut: Obstruction and recut information/advi

Gosh, the stone is lovely!! Issues and all

I'm looking forward to Karl's thoughts & model, this is going to be interesting! I'm not sure I really follow when you say "laziness" though - is it something you can see when the stone is held still? If so can you post a comp of one that isn't lazy? I'm wondering if I've seen this, but called it something different to myself.

 

[Dreamer_D]

Re: Old European Cut: Obstruction and recut information/advi

This promises to be a very educational Old Cuts thread! I'll be following with interest, because my OMCs exhibit some of this behavior too, though it's not too bad. Thanks for the pics, they are great illustrations of the good and the bad.

I'm with the others who admire the setting. Beautiful.

Gemfever most old cuts have obstruction issues, its part of their quirky charm I guess! Where is the line drawn about severity in one's own mind... is a recut to improve light play ever warranted? Or should all old cuts be left "as is" because they are old, to respect their history? I don't know.

Here are a couple photos comparing this diamond to my 7mm stone. Poor photos and bad lighting. BUT I think it shows clearly the difference in facets lighting up under the table. On the larger stone, the pavilion mains tend to turn on and off as a group, and they are ON (white) or OFF (Black). No nuance. In the 7mm I think you can see how some under table mains are lit and some are silvery and some are off. But the pattern of on and off facets are nicely distributed accross the face of the stone. Part of this is because the 7mm is loose and the larger set, but mostly its the cut

Yssie by "lazy" I mean they all turn on and off as a group and are off more than they are on in some angles. Looking at the stone at a 45% tilt the center is all lit up. Looking directly in, they darken. So the pavilion is just returning light at a single angle I guess, and not returning muc at the 90% angle.

 

[Karl_K]

Re: Old European Cut: Obstruction and recut information/advi

Here is the thing, obstruction like that is usually a sign of a too shallow pavilion in an oec but that does not match the 68% depth.
Where does that number come from?
There may be exceptions on the way deep end and there is a ton of digging also which is why I'm trying to model it.

If the pavilion is shallow your looking at a 20% or so loss in weight for a re-cut.

 

[Dreamer_D]

Re: Old European Cut: Obstruction and recut information/advi

Here is the thing, obstruction like that is usually a sign of a too shallow pavilion in an oec but that does not match the 68% depth.
Where does that number come from?
There may be exceptions on the way deep end and there is a ton of digging also which is why I'm trying to model it.

If the pavilion is shallow your looking at a 20% or so loss in weight for a re-cut.

Ohhhh. Hmm. The depth is an estimate from a fairly reliable appraisal company that came with the stone. I would be pretty shocked if the stone is over shallow. Let me see if I can get my own estimate.

If anything I suspect its over-deep.

Obviously 20% is unacceptable.

ETA: Karl I am getting a diameter measurement of 8.0 - 8.10mm and a depth in the region of 5.75 or maybe 5.80. So depth is closer to 70 to 71%. That fits the appearance better doesn't it?

 

[Dreamer_D]

Re: Old European Cut: Obstruction and recut information/advi

I was wondering about karl's reference to digging and looked it up: http://winkjones.com/index.php?page=news-item2

Yes Karl this stone has HUGE digging going on and you noted!

Can anyone comment on this type of digging in old cuts? Was it weight retention like in modern cuts or was it a desired method at one time?

 

[yssie]

Re: Old European Cut: Obstruction and recut information/advi

Ah, I see what you mean by lazy now, Dreamer.
But whatever, it's still super pretty, lazy and all - the facets look nice and crisp

I've never seen a stone with digging like that. I hope you can model it somewhat Karl - I'm really curious what the model would yield!

 

[Karl_K]

Re: Old European Cut: Obstruction and recut information/advi

I cant get close enough, it is just too wonky.
Its going to have to be unset and scanned to be evaluated at all.

 

[shimmer]

Re: Old European Cut: Obstruction and recut information/advi

Hi Dreamer,

Lovely stone! I have an aset I can send to you if you would like to borrow it... you can contact me on DB.

 

[Dreamer_D]

Re: Old European Cut: Obstruction and recut information/advi

Hi Dreamer,

Lovely stone! I have an aset I can send to you if you would like to borrow it... you can contact me on DB.

What a doll you are!! Will contact you

 

[Mara]

Re: Old European Cut: Obstruction and recut information/advi

Interesting specimen DD. I love that setting!! Too bad it's not 9.5mm because if you unset and sold the setting I might be super tempted to abandon a solitaire route for my monster OEC.

What's the color grading? It looks fairly warm in some of the angles, especially along the edges where I tend to see color the most. What do you think of the overall stone? If it is a warmer stone and needs some rehab, was it such an amazing deal you wouldn't keep looking? For some reason I always thought you preferred the lower end of the near colorless range.

The first images look fantastic, it looks very traditional OEC with patterning. But wow that nailhead! Even in the farthest away hand shot, it's very dark. Most traditional OEC's I have seen in person have SOME head obstruction, which seems to make taking pics of the beauties super hard because the middle facets just black out, and it's hard to say 'well that doesn't really happen in real life' but I've never had a stone where it blacks out quite so far away as that pic on your hand.

My own experience with having Brian look at a stone recut, it was unmounted and he had me get a Sarin to show each of the angles to see if it was a candidate for a recut. If the stone is set, not sure that he can tell enough to say truly yay or nay. Could you unset the stone, and then be prepared to reset it (at your own expense, fixing prongs etc to make it back the way it was) if you decide to return it? It may cost $100-150ish depending on your local setter/jeweler but I would think it'd be the best way to determine if the stone is a good candidate or not.

 

[Karl_K]

Re: Old European Cut: Obstruction and recut information/advi

my opinion is no recut, put it in a pendant where obstruction is less of an issue and put another stone in the setting while re-tipping the prongs.

 

[Dreamer_D]

Re: Old European Cut: Obstruction and recut information/advi

Here are some pics showing the girdle. I think it shows pretty clearly how the prongs were poorly built up to hold the larher diamond. Originally I bet the center set down in the basket, with the table just above the fleur de lis details.

I will contact the seller and see what he says anout unsetting the stone.

 

[starshine]

Re: Old European Cut: Obstruction and recut information/advi

No advice, just sayin" that setting is .

Ditto! What a beauty!