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NEED Help to see if diamond purchase is good for d/fl/3x diamond

Don't think of diamond as an investment at all. Treat them as luxury item for your own enjoyment only and a good gift for your kids in the future (although they may have different taste). If you want something truly valuable or possibly appreciates in the future, put your hard earned money in 529 or real property, or other transferable financial vehicle. Diamond is not going to make sense as financial investment for most consumers. Set a realistic budget first, so you don't feel like you need to break the bank by buying this luxurious item, then find a vendor with the most flexible trade up policy if you think you will want to upgrade in the future. You might also want to look at stones on consignment such as Jewels by Grace, LAD or GOG, some of them offer pretty good discount compared to newly certed stones.
 
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bmfang said:
Pavilion angle is a little too high (for 35.5 crown angle, 40.6 pavilion angle would be better). If the table was 57 also, that would be better, but a 58 table with 35.5 CA and 40.6 PA should look work out as well.

My understanding after some reading is that strong flour in D-F stones could knock between 0-15% off the "value". Good buying value if the flour doesn't affect transparency of the stone (historically D-F stones that had flour were popular at a point in time), but reselling could be a problem as the general public is told nowadays that flour in diamonds is a no-no.
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I agree with bmfang ,You are going to spend a lot of money of the best color and clarity there is ,you might as well get the best stone for the money,ideal cut and without any flour. even if it costs a little extra ,if you ever want to resale/upgrade you will get a better response and a better price for a stone that is within the ideal proportions and without any flour.
 
lucida said:
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The reason why I wanted a perfect diamond is for investment purposes, but I want to wear it and enjoy it and then hand down to my kids. I want something that will not depreciate in value.
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I want a nice diamond (as perfect as possible) within my budget, but everyone wants to make money and scam me from what I understand. If you make 2k or 5k, fine, but from what I understand people want to make 30+%. I am by no means rich or anywhere close. I am just an engineer who loves diamonds and have worked tirelessly to save this money. I don't have other houses or investments, but I do love diamonds, so I wanted a plain diamond to wear forever. It seems like this is getting harder and harder to trust and believe any seller (especially the one for this which I thought was very reputable told me this particular diamond was overseas and I had to have funds wired before it's sent, where it turns out that this is available in the US on other sites too). So you have to wonder, is there any credibility and integrity left? I worked so hard for this money and I can't just blow it off and get scammed. As for the pricing, I have no idea what the dealer-to-dealer pricing is (obviously not the rappaport). So I'm stuck on this issue at many levels...
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If you want an ironclad guarantee that whatever stone you purchase will not depreciate in value, I'm sorry to burst the bubble, but diamonds (like other commodity items like cars or my other favourite hobby, watches) will depreciate after the initial purchase at retail point of sale (that's irrespective of whether you purchase from a B&M store or one of the PS recommended vendors). Buying a preloved stone will be better "value" as you let someone else take the depreciation hit for you and you should be able to recoup your outlay if you were to sell it in the future.

There are very few stones that will retain their value in years to come (even after accounting for inflation) or even be worth more — just like watches. In fact with your budget, I was going to suggest that you buy a few Rolex Daytonas as they are rare as hens teeth at a retail level and sell them later (the waiting list for one is long and some people will be stupid enough, I mean will be willing, to pay above the RRP for a Daytona if you have one available now).

Don't be fooled with the news reports you hear about diamonds being sold for ridiculous amounts of money at auctions (and beating their reserves). Those are usually for coloured diamonds and to my mind, an Argyle Pink or Blue would be a better "investment" because any fancy coloured diamond which is not a fancy yellow is exceedingly rare compared to a D FL/IF stone.

The vendor your were dealing with is a reputable one and you've now learnt that they carry a lot of virtual inventory. Like a lot of other diamond vendors.

If you do want an IF stone to wear, the ~1ct D IF I posted about earlier in this thread at Whiteflash is the way to go. Finding a 3+ct stone that is cut for beauty is difficult, especially at the colour-clarity combo you are looking at. Most will be cut for weight retention.

If you were to step down from an IF to a VVS1 or VVS2 clarity stone, those are also considered to be "investment grade diamonds" by Whiteflash but you will be able to save a lot of money and possibly buy an even bigger stone that will visually look the same as an IF stone to the naked eye.
 
The stone you posted would have to be recut to get ideal light return it is a dud. Cut is king...color and clarity do not make a diamond beautiful....only cut can accomplish that. A lower color and clarity will certainly out perform that D, IF and you CAN take that to the bank...but you will always lose money when you go to resell a diamond....unless you get a steal on a great performing antique cut stone.

This one is HCA 1.5 and flawless.
https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-di...-f-color-if-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-2790278
 
lucida said:
Ok, thanks. How may I find out what you have or what can you offer knowing this info? Thanks.
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I'm not a member of the trade, just another forum member like the many folks here who are willing to help out. The whiteflash stone that was posted above this is lovely and you can't beat the cut, and I posted one early in the thread that has better color and clarity if that is something you value.
 
The vast majority of us here on Pricescope @lucida are not working in the diamond trade and so we can only offer you our opinions on stones that vendors have. Those who are in the trade and post here can't solicit you to buy their wares nor comment on stones that we consumers suggest.
 
I am very analytical in my decision making so bear with me. You said you want the "most perfect" diamond you can get. First you need to define "most perfect" because most perfect for one may not be for another. Another is why. Is it because you think it will make it a better investment? What others have said is true. Diamonds bad investment unless maybe you have th $$$ to buy those super rare colored stones auctioned by th Christie, forget it. Now, do you think you need a "most perfect" =. Highest specs = most beautiful? Not automatically. You need the best cut first and foremost. That is no guarantee if you've got a highly included stone, but you seem to understand that. On the other hand, do you NEED a flawless stone in order for it to be as beautiful as a VS1? No. Your eyes will not be able to see the inclusion without a loupe and at VS1 usually any inclusions will not affect the performance of the diamond. Do you need a flawless because you have OCD and cannot stand the thought of your diamond not being perfect, well that is a whole other reason that maybe more valid than worrying that inclusions will negatively affect the performance of your diamond. Now color. Again do you want a D becuae yoru eyes require the iciness of a D? If so, that is just fine. Go for it. If you need it because you think it equals most beautiful without having tested your own color tolerance, then you should go and do that first in real life. Find a jeweler with D, F, G H I GIA Ex stones. I say this because most jewelers will not have AGS stones. See what you like. I have a friend who has a GIA F who swears that she thinks it looks yellow and misses her D. I have friends that are perfectly happy with their H and I stones and would rather spend the money on a larger diamond. Figure out what you like first. Once you have done that, come back, and the Pricescoper where will help you get the best cut diamond with the specs you want. But just remember you need to decide first on what your priorities are. Most of us have budgets and we end up paying more for the aspects of the stone that are most important to us. I think one thing you can eliminate is trying to make it an investment. Keep in mind that a large part of investment is buying something that you can resell with relative ease, which is the best you can hope for with a diamond. Forget making a profit. What I have seen from buyers here is that most don't want to pay the premium for D and Flawless stones. A very good number of people don't want to pay for what they don't see. I'm not saying you shouldn't. But keep it in mind when you think of ease of reselling.
 
gm89uk said:
What your reputable vendor told you does not undermine his integrity. It's rather the industry standard. Few people really own stones, they are just part of a transition between you and the cutting house. B&M will often ask for deposit before grabbing a stone from overseas, some won't but lots do. Not telling it's available online from their competitors, well that's just business. You pay for their customer service and attention, and the fact you can see the stone in person. Saying it's the best money can buy is an ambiguous statement, technically in carat and clarity and GIA certificate it is (and many jewellers will believe this) but technically we know this isn't the case.

If I were in your shoes, I'd buy a nice diamond from a vendor with a great trade up policy that isn't ridiculously high specced but with perfect cut, like whiteflash. 100 percent of that value can be put towards an upgrade later, and the $$$ you save can be invested in something more worthwhile for your children. If your children ever decide to sell the diamond investment, they will just wish you gave them money instead of the hassle and struggle to sell such a large D/IF stone, with probable significant loss of value compared to what you'll pay to a dealer. You can't really cut out the middle man I'm afraid..

Something like this
https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3802915.htm

If you don't wish to upgrade
https://www.jamesallen.com/mobile/l...g-color-vs2-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-2695919

I'd maybe contact IDJ who is an excellent vendor with a lower mark up
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Hello and i think you're right. I shouldn't go for the top of the line. Out of these two, which are very close specwise, the James Allen one is about 47k with a Holloway score of 0.7, while the WHiteFlash is 63k ($15k more in price) but has a Holloway score of 1.1. The lower the Holloway score, the better right? As long as it's below 2. WOuld it be worth paying 15kmore for the Whiteflash?

Lastly, is there something you'd suggest at IDJ? I Googled, IDJ and many came up. I am not sure which IDJ you're reffering to? Thanks again.
 
I'm not an expert and are just here to get help, same as you. But from what you've said, I would definitely get a diamond from whiteflash. That way, you know exactly what you are getting and that it's of absolute best cut available. If you are finding it overwhelming, you can contact them and I'm sure they are happy to help.

It won't be wholesale prices, but honestly, you won't get wholesale prices. Especially not anywhere that actually provides idealscope and aset images etc. And you don't want to gamble on a purchase like this. It's possible you can negotiate the price on a big purchase like this though, I honestly wouldn't know, but could be worth contacting them once you've got a better idea what you want.

Also the biggest reason to go with them is their lifetime trade up guarantee. Should you change your mind in 10 years, you CAN. And they will credit full purchase price towards a different diamond. That's huge for a purchase of this importance for you.

But do treat it as something to enjoy, not as an investment. Something you can pass down to your kids perhaps as a family heirloom, but not something you are planning on selling.

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lucida said:
Lastly, is there something you'd suggest at IDJ? I Googled, IDJ and many came up. I am not sure which IDJ you're reffering to? Thanks again.
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I had the same problem :) it's https://idjewelry.com
 
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lucida said:
Hello and i think you're right. I shouldn't go for the top of the line. Out of these two, which are very close specwise, the James Allen one is about 47k with a Holloway score of 0.7, while the WHiteFlash is 63k ($15k more in price) but has a Holloway score of 1.1. The lower the Holloway score, the better right? As long as it's below 2. WOuld it be worth paying 15kmore for the Whiteflash?

Lastly, is there something you'd suggest at IDJ? I Googled, IDJ and many came up. I am not sure which IDJ you're reffering to? Thanks again.
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A Holloway score of 0.7 is not necessarily better than a 1.1. All that tells you is that a stone is worthy of further consideration. The HCA tool only takes into account 5 parameters of a stone. While they are critical parameters, the HCA makes some assumptions about a stone in order to arrive at a final score.

Theoretically speaking, you could have a heavily included I2 stone that has the optimal crown and pavilion angles along with a table and depth that would put it solidly within the AGS 000 range that scores under 2 as HCA assumes things for polish, symmetry and girdle thickness. But a report on that theoretical stone could say that it has only good polish and symmetry which would drop the cut grade of that stone immensely. Would I still buy it because a HCA under 2? Maybe if i was looking for something to use as an industrial diamond...

Of those two stones that gm89uk linked to, the WF stone is a cleaner stone than the James Allen one inclusions wise. Part of the $15k price difference is that the WF stone has no fluorescence while the James Allen one has medium blue fluorescence (a major difference in spec) and its inclusions are IMO worse than the WF stone (look at the inclusion plots on both the AGS report for the WF stone and the GIA report for the James Allen stone). So if my budget stretched up to the WF stone and I would not put myself in financial stress to do so, I'd rather pay for the Whiteflash stone instead. The upgrade policy there is also the bomb.
 
HCA is a rejection tool. Anything under 2 is worth further investigation. It doesn't matter what score under 2 it gets. A lower number is not better than a higher under 2 number. They are all worth further investigation. Also just because a diamond scores under 2 doesn't automatically make it perfect. Hence the further investigation through idealscope & ASET images.
 
I agree and understand all of your point of views. The only reason why I was wanting a perfect (d color, IF clarity, 3x, etc...) was for it to retain it's value, even though these might not be distinguishable by the naked eye. I'm not in the jewelry business, but love diamonds. I do not have unlimited funds where I will buy it for the heck of it. It won't necessarily make a difference for me if it's D color or F color, etc, however resell purposes was my only concern so that it would retain value. But from what I understand, it won't retain full value unless it's a fancy pink or blue. I was trying to a fancy blue for a few years and I gave up on that as I had to pay 100k for half a carat or something (which I don't have most importantly). This is my only chance and I want to really enjoy wearing it. I will look at the Whiteflash suggestion as I hadn't heard of them and also the IDJewelry. I don't have much experience in this industry and I truly appreciate all of your opinions!
 
There are articles on this site in how to read ASETs. I am sure you would find those useful if you haven't read them already. My gut says that whiteflash ACA would be a good match for you. Their precision cut stones would appeal to you as an engineer I am guessing. You are paying for their precision cut, which translates directly to a very beautiful diamond. And as many have said their upgrade policy is excellent. After wearing your diamond for a while, you can see how you feel about tax size, color and cut. You may want to leave the upgrade door open.
 
LLJsmom said:
There are articles on this site in how to read ASETs. I am sure you would find those useful if you haven't read them already. My gut says that whiteflash ACA would be a good match for you. Their precision cut stones would appeal to you as an engineer I am guessing. You are paying for their precision cut, which translates directly to a very beautiful diamond. And as many have said their upgrade policy is excellent. After wearing your diamond for a while, you can see how you feel about tax size, color and cut. You may want to leave the upgrade door open.
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I agree with you... What is the Whiteflash ACA?
 
lucida said:
I agree and understand all of your point of views. The only reason why I was wanting a perfect (d color, IF clarity, 3x, etc...) was for it to retain it's value, even though these might not be distinguishable by the naked eye. I'm not in the jewelry business, but love diamonds. I do not have unlimited funds where I will buy it for the heck of it. It won't necessarily make a difference for me if it's D color or F color, etc, however resell purposes was my only concern so that it would retain value. But from what I understand, it won't retain full value unless it's a fancy pink or blue. I was trying to a fancy blue for a few years and I gave up on that as I had to pay 100k for half a carat or something (which I don't have most importantly). This is my only chance and I want to really enjoy wearing it. I will look at the Whiteflash suggestion as I hadn't heard of them and also the IDJewelry. I don't have much experience in this industry and I truly appreciate all of your opinions!
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If you are concerned about resale, a smaller stone will be easier to offload than a larger one. Even if is at a higher clarity level.
 
Much better than your initial choice! Congrats!
 
I followed the whole thread and wanted to say that I'm so glad you listened to the PS folks on this. Just a note to remember to pick a sufficiently protective setting for you new diamond with at least 6-prongs.
 
rockysalamander said:
I followed the whole thread and wanted to say that I'm so glad you listened to the PS folks on this. Just a note to remember to pick a sufficiently protective setting for you new diamond with at least 6-prongs.
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I think four double prongs would be sufficient as well.
 
I've been following this thread, and I'm so happy that you took all of the valuable PS advice to heart and are going with an ACA. The diamond you posted is beautiful and will be SUPER white and clean. Can't wait to see how you set it! I vote sleek six prong soli, but I'm biased. :D
 
lucida said:
I decided to follow all of your suggestions and will most likely purchase something like this, If not this one
http://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3802915
I hope you all would agree that this is a better quality diamond and MUCH cheaper. You all saved me from making a massive mistake - thank you!
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I think this stone will blow your socks off. It is going to be amazing. I really hope you will come back with pictures. How will you set it? Now is when the fun begins!!
 
With something that large, a solitaire would be what I'd put it in. Either Classic 6 prong or a double claw with cathedral shanks, no pave (unless you want to blind everyone you meet, :lol:)
 
I would like it to be a simple Tiffany-like setting, 6 prong platinum although the cathedral setting looks interesting too.
My only reservation or concern is the color/clarity for the amount of money. I understand I should only go with the ACA, but paying about 63k for a g/vs2 diamond is bothering me. Do you think I should go closer to 2.5 carats but with at least f color? This Whiteflash company isn't budging a penny (only giving a 3% discount for wired payments). I think the difference in color will be noticeable? If anyone has any opinion on this, I'd really be grateful to hear it, or do I sound over analytical? I know they have the upgrade perk which is great, but am I paying like 10 to 20k extra for this (which I might or might not take advantage of)?
 
I think the size difference between a 2.5 and the 3+ you chose will have a more immediate impact on your eye and the WOW factor. Going up to a F, from a G would usually be barely imperceptible, even when held next to each other. When you are not comparing an F and a G side by side, it won't even be relevant.

Now if you really want to have a more obvious difference, then I would move up to an E or a D, IF you desire serious whiteness. But usually, unless you have worn a D for years, and are moving down in color, you will never miss what you didn't have.

My first MRB was an F, VS1. 2.59 carats. I wish I had gone down to a G, and a VS2, and bumped up the size. That is what you will see first. Here is what I suggest. I would keep the one your ordered, and see it and wear it for a while. Then if you are not feeling at peace, send it back and order an F, 2.5, and then see how that feels. You've got time in the return period. Nothing to lose.
 
Larger stones are by definition rarer than smaller ones. You will notice the larger diameter of the 3+ct stone compared to a 2.5ct one

I doubt that you would be able to notice the difference between a F and a G once it is set in platinum (unless you are super colour sensitive which I am guessing that you might not be). You can always ask a WF consultant to pull a F coloured stone from their inventory and ask them for their opinion about whether there is any tint visible or not between a G and a F.
 
Ok I'll keep it at G and 3ct. I for sure won't be able to tell the difference and I've never had a D color diamond. My engagement ring was F color. I'm just trying to justify spending this much on jewelry which is an outrageous purchase, but I have peace of mind that I can then change my mind at any time. I just wish I found it cheaper somewhere...
 
lucida said:
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I just wish I found it cheaper somewhere...
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Stones with super-ideal cut are rarely on sale. You pay for quality in this case. Of course there are margins even for internet vendors, but their profit margins are far lower than at a bricks and mortar store.

At the risk of sounding harsh, if you want discounts of 30-40% off a retail price to make one feel good about a bargain, buy at a regular bricks and mortar who sell sub-par stones (at least by the standards of Pricescopers) and who will still be making a ridiculous amount of money off you.
 
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