NEED Help to see if diamond purchase is good for d/fl/3x diamond

[Wewechew]

You are getting a deal. You are getting an exceptional diamond for less than you were planning on paying originally.

 

[Tophat1]

If you are really worried about color and clarity, this one has improved specs but for $20+K more

https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3802914.htm

For a purchase of this size, it might be worthwhile going to whiteflash and viewing them in person side by side

 

[ac117]

There are no deals in diamonds. You will certainly pay more for a super ideal cut but it will be the cream of the crop! If you don't want to spend that much, you can search for a top of the line GIA stone like this one:
https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-di...g-color-vs2-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-2695919

 

[gm89uk]

Yes that JA stone is the one I saw before, really looks like a great deal. But not upgradable (unless you spend twice as much). Are you likely to upgrade after 3ct? The cut on WF is better, this is a 34/40.6 combo which I believe wouldn't get AGS0 but still appears to be a very pretty diamond. If you want to save money I'd get an ASSET/H&A on this or see if IDJ can have a look at it further for you. If you want the finest precision cut and upgrade options, you pay premium for it and that's at whiteflash.
Cutting a stone superideal results in significantly higher labour work and loss of rough that doesn't go towards weight retention.

Online vendors usually don't have 'deals' and the prices you see are what is required of them to generate profit in this competitive market. The 20-30 percent deals you're dreaming of are in B&M stores from what was already a huge mark up. There was never a good deal, just a crooked price

 

[denverappraiser]

A few general thoughts on retaining value.


Back in the early 80’s, the investment diamond craze was going strong. GIA was ‘certifying’ stones. Who could argue with that? Rapaport was declaring what they were worth, and prices climbed quite consistently. In 1984, it all crashed and the price chart reset. It’s been reasonably steadily climbing ever since. That’s ok, that’s the way these things go, but there’s more to the story.


I’m STILL seeing these 80's stones crop up in estates. They’re a disaster. The best of the best and the benchmark for value meant a 1 carat D/flawless. Cutters were producing them as fast as their access to rough would allow and cut wasn’t a topic. Mostly they were terrible. Try to sell that in 2017 and it’s a recut job. Who would buy a D/IF/fair? The end stone comes back a 0.8x ideal, which is saleable enough, but it trades at a massive discount to the 1.01 that Grandpa bought.


That was then, this is now. Now they have a cut grade, right? Sure, but if you read the forum you can’t help but notice that the GIA cut grading system has only existed since 2006 and it’s widely criticized for being to broad. The best they have is excellent and it covers a wide range of results. Many of the dealers here use their own talents to argue that their excellent’s are better than those others. Maybe so, but are you certain that 10 or 30 years from now the rules will be the same? Why? There’s not even agreement on this NOW.


Another example is with fluorescence. Before about 1970, it was at worst a neutral and many saw it as a feature. ‘Blue white’ was the best you could get. Then there was a scandal. I think it was in Korea. Fluorescent diamonds were for suckers. Everything changed. Fluro was BAD, and the investment crowd ran screaming. Check the database now and compare otherwise similar D/IF/strong vs. D/IF/none. It’s something like 50%!. That’s insane, but that’s what happened. Does that mean Very Strong high grade stones are bargains or sucker deals? Who knows? It depends on what happens in the future. One thing you can be sure of. Your grandkid’s taste is going to be different from yours.


Then there are fashion topics. Check out the prices on marquises. 40 years ago, those were hot. People paid extra for that. They’re just as lovely now as they were when they were new, but the market has collapsed for no reason other than fashion.

 

[lucida]

Yes I agree that I'm paying a premium for the cut and it's the most important feature of a diamond. I have until tomorrow night to move forward with this purchase as I reserved it for free. So being the person I am to over analyze, I was again looking to see if I can find something comparable that costs less. I honestly don't know if I'll upgrade, even though I'm at peace of mind knowing that I can upgrade (if Whiteflash will hopefully be around) to justify overpaying this much as they are set in their prices and only give a 3% discount for wired payments and that'll probably pay for the simple 6prong setting. With all that I've learned throughput this process, as the last time, I know this diamond doesn't compare, however I located this diamond that's slightly larger at 3.4ct and is half the price with AGS ideal cut and proportions. Would it be worth buying this at half the price? I'm really sorry to ask, but this is really important and a lot of money. I know the pics of the red light performance map isnt as good as the other one. This is my once in a lifetime purchase. Thanks.

 

[gm89uk]

A stone of this size at SI2 would be a real rarity to be eye clean. Are you able to live with non eye clean?

Cavities can dislodge /fill up and lower the clarity grading over time, potentially pushing it to I1 (depending on its size and placement)

Although this is AGS 0, it wouldn't be my cup of tea. 41.4 is too steep for me and the symmetry leaves some to be desired. Does this vendor have a good trade up policy?

Is it the colour that is appealing to you here? The difference in colour may be less noticeable compared to the difference in cut and clarity, in my opinion.

Edit: I'm not sure what stone you have at the moment if at all, but possibly you could consider a smaller stone 2ct plus from WF and move up when you feel you are ready if you ever feel the need to, to stagger the cost

 

[bmfang]

Major drop in spec now. There is a reason why this is half price compared with the WF stone. It has AGS 000 but HCA score of 4.4. Main issues are crown and pavilion angles being way off super Ideal proportions. And you are dropping significantly down to SI2 clarity from a VS clarity stone.

Would be worried about the cavity. What is the full AGS report number?

 

[gm89uk]

It is interesting some of the stones that make AGS 0. Lots of bright red on the computer generated image. It poses the possibilities
1) AGS 0 isn't tight enough with some of them slightly disappointing (on paper)
2) our cut expectations are OTT

Interesting for HCA4.4 to get AGS 0. It might be simply that most stones with HCA 4.4 wouldn't get AGS0 and this happens to be a fluke..

It's sometimes easy to forget that AGS 0 =/= superideal

 

[MollyMalone]

There's a lot of "schmutz" in that diamond! The seller does have a 30-day return policy & ToolHaus says the seller hasn't gotten dinged with any negative feedback in the past year.

fyi: the true name of the seller is National Gold & Diamond Center, Inc. in Los Angeles.

 

[lucida]

Yes so I only searched for AGS 000 and now it's still not good enough. I guess each diamond has to be looked at individually. This is getting harder and harder. It's give and take and there's no specific pricing like the Rappaport that's followed for me to know that I'm not being cheated at least. For an outsider like me to purchase this is pretty difficult as it's so much money. Before all I wanted was a GIA xxx d if, now even AGS 000 wouldn't be a solid indicator of a perfectly cut diamond.

 

[bmfang]

The eBay listing is for USD38k for that D SI2. Item description can be found here:
http://vi.raptor.ebaydesc.com/ws/eB...83867&category=3824&pm=1&ds=0&t=1494203370980

The funny thing is that when you punch in the AGS report number to verify on the AGS Labs website, you do not get a Platinum Light Performance Diamond Quality Document for you to look at. All you get is a Diamond Consultation doc instead (see for yourselves):
http://www.agslab.com/reportTypes/pdc.php?StoneID=104091597001&Weight=3.404&D=1

Which makes me wonder where the the PLP DQD that lucida posted above came from. Either way, as MollyMalone has mentioned, the plot does not look pretty. And the pics on the eBay listing make me seriously question whether it will be eye clean. Something smells not right here...

 

[lucida]

The eBay listing is for USD38k for that D SI2. Item description can be found here:
http://vi.raptor.ebaydesc.com/ws/eB...83867&category=3824&pm=1&ds=0&t=1494203370980

The funny thing is that when you punch in the AGS report number to verify on the AGS Labs website, you do not get a Platinum Light Performance Diamond Quality Document for you to look at. All you get is a Diamond Consultation doc instead (see for yourselves):
http://www.agslab.com/reportTypes/pdc.php?StoneID=104091597001&Weight=3.404&D=1

Which makes me wonder where the the PLP DQD that lucida posted above came from. Either way, as MollyMalone has mentioned, the plot does not look pretty. And the pics on the eBay listing make me seriously question whether it will be eye clean. Something smells not right here...

Yes you're right it's from EBay. It's one of the pictures posted if you scroll through them. I looked it up on the AGS website and not much info was provided. So this one is a no go also... so out of all the sites, Whiteflash is the one to go but they are expensive and don't budge on the price...

 

[bmfang]

Have you considered checking with Brian Gavin Diamonds given that you've said this is a once in a lifetime purchase? It sounds to me that you might not use the upgrade facility.

They also specialise in super-ideal cut stones and in fact Mr Gavin was one of the founders of Whiteflash before he left there to start his own company. If you have a chat with Lesley there, she may be able to assist you with a purchase.

Disclaimer: I have made purchases from there in the last 6 months and have been... erm... successful in getting a better deal there on stones. Every now and then, they have offers where you can get higher than 3% off for stones with wire transfer.

 

[MollyMalone]

Yes so I only searched for AGS 000 and now it's still not good enough. I guess each diamond has to be looked at individually. This is getting harder and harder. It's give and take and there's no specific pricing like the Rappaport that's followed for me to know that I'm not being cheated at least. For an outsider like me to purchase this is pretty difficult as it's so much money. Before all I wanted was a GIA xxx d if, now even AGS 000 wouldn't be a solid indicator of a perfectly cut diamond.

Yeppers, even round brilliants of the same carat size, color, clarity, and cut grade aren't interchangeable "widgets".

* * * from what I understand, unless you're in the industry (which I'm not), I'm not going to be given a fair chance at getting a very good deal. All the dealers online that I've been looking into all look like I'm their prey or something. * * * It seems like this is getting harder and harder to trust and believe any seller (especially the one for this which I thought was very reputable told me this particular diamond was overseas and I had to have funds wired before it's sent, where it turns out that this is available in the US on other sites too). So you have to wonder, is there any credibility and integrity left? I worked so hard for this money and I can't just blow it off and get scammed. As for the pricing, I have no idea what the dealer-to-dealer pricing is (obviously not the rappaport). So I'm stuck on this issue at many levels...

There's a huge difference between you paying a fair price in today's consumer marketplace -- i.e., not getting a smokin' hot deal -- and getting scammed, cheated, or ripped off. But since the two seem to be synonymous in your mind just now, maybe it makes sense for you to step back from making a purchase at this juncture. Take advantage of the wealth of information that's available here at PS -- and I'm not talking about just the forums, although it'd be great if you hung out here to see what others ask, the answers they receive, post additional questions of your own, etc. But also click through what all is under the tabs near the top of your screen. If you'd like, run searches of the diamonds in the PS database, using select parameters, but do it "for fun"... just to see what's out there, not to pressure yourself into purchasing right away.

Perhaps doing this will give you (I hope) the confidence to eventually make a purchase -- with the aid of feedback here -- without fearing you've been victimized.

P. S. My late father-in-law was "in the trade", in diamonds as a matter of fact. Were he alive, I'm sure he would give this article by Neil Beaty (a/k/a/ Denver Appraiser, who responded in this thread) a big thumbs-up; it explains why consumers shouldn't care about the Rap Index:
https://www.pricescope.com/journal/why_isn’t_rapaport_pricing_important_consumers

 

[bmfang]

@lucida: I just took a look at the BGD inventory and the only 3+ct stone they have in stock for under $100k is this one:
http://www.briangavindiamonds.com/d...-bkags-104093020001#!prettyPhoto[gallery2]/1/

The ASET and IS images on this are beautiful but granted, this is from Brian Gavin's "Black" range (and as such it is priced higher than their regular Signature Hearts & Arrows stones which are already cut to some very strict standards).

 

[bmfang]

P. S. My late father-in-law was "in the trade", in diamonds as a matter of fact. Were he alive, I'm sure he would give this article by Neil Beaty (a/k/a/ Denver Appraiser, who responded in this thread) a big thumbs-up; it explains why consumers shouldn't care about the Rap Index:
https://www.pricescope.com/journal/why_isn’t_rapaport_pricing_important_consumers

This is a must read for you lucida as I am sensing that you might think that the Rap sheet is the be all and end all of diamond pricing (which it certainly isn't).

 

[bmfang]

Yeppers, even round brilliants of the same carat size, color, clarity, and cut grade aren't interchangeable "widgets

Purchasing diamonds is not like purchasing a tv from different brands. At least with that, you are almost certain that each different model of TV will have the same specs between each unit of the same model and therefore you can just check pricing between the retailers to compare. In that instance you are comparing apples with apples. With diamonds, it's more like buying whisky or wine as each bottle can be significantly different (even though winemakers and distillers try to have a "house style").

 

[lucida]

Yes all of you are correct. Every single diamond is unique. I think I need time to digest all if this. All if you are right and I'm so grateful that I had this help to guide me. I'll be back ti researching to choose what's right. In the meantime, I wanted to know how much Whiteflash was overcharging me but I wasn't able to find a comparable diamond. Thanks again for all of your assistance

 

[bmfang]

Don't think for a second that WF is overcharging you. Because they aren't. Go to a Zales or Kay and you will find they will be overcharging you (even after the discounts).

 

[foxinsox]

Lucida, you're not getting overcharged.
You seem to becomparing a super ideal cut with a GIA XXX or AGS 000 as if they are the same thing. They aren't.
They're a select subset of those grades which are cut precisely to optimise the light reflection.
You're being charged appropriately for something that has been carefully planned and designed. Check out the BGD Black or CBI super ideals and you will see that they're exactly in line with those - ie you're looking at premium, top tier stones and the pricing reflects that. It's not a ripoff and if anything, these brands have a lot more integrity than the vendors who try to convince you a GIA XXX is all you need to know.

 

[lucida]

@lucida: I just took a look at the BGD inventory and the only 3+ct stone they have in stock for under $100k is this one:
http://www.briangavindiamonds.com/diamonds/diamond-details/3.068-f-vs1-round-diamond-bkags-104093020001#!prettyPhoto[gallery2]/1/

The ASET and IS images on this are beautiful but granted, this is from Brian Gavin's "Black" range (and as such it is priced higher than their regular Signature Hearts & Arrows stones which are already cut to some very strict standards).

This one from Brian Gavin (first time I've heard of this brand) and this one from Whiteflash are very very close in price and features (F, vs1, ideal, etc). How would I be able to choose between them , except Whiteflash has the upgrade appeal. So these are name brands of diamonds. Which one is the best in terms of cut, strictness of grading and value retention?

 

[bmfang]

A branded stone from WF, BGD or CBI is likely to retain value better than a stone that is not branded. But all three of these vendors cut to a super ideal standard.

That being said, there are plenty of folks who buy stones from Tiffany or Hearts on Fire who are severely disappointed with their resale value on the secondhand market (it doesn't help that stones from these places have a ridiculous markup on them to begin with).

In real life you are unlikely to really notice the very slight differences that show up in the ASET images for both stones. The main differences between the two stones exist underneath the table as the BG Black stone does not have any other black areas in between each arrow shaft. There is more red on the ASET scope image. Essentially, more light return from the stone. Whether or not you will actually notice it is another story.

Both the WF F VS1 and the BG Black F VS1 are exceptionally cut stones. Both stones are graded by AGS. The BG Black has a customised grading report to set it apart from other AGS graded stones (even the regular BG Signature Hearts & Arrows stones).

If I had a cool $90k lying around (which I don't) and I had no inclination to upgrade, I would prefer the BG Black over the ACA. That's me though. Others on PS would take the ACA F VS1 instead.

 

[LLJsmom]

Yeppers, even round brilliants of the same carat size, color, clarity, and cut grade aren't interchangeable "widgets".

There's a huge difference between you paying a fair price in today's consumer marketplace -- i.e., not getting a smokin' hot deal -- and getting scammed, cheated, or ripped off. But since the two seem to be synonymous in your mind just now, maybe it makes sense for you to step back from making a purchase at this juncture. Take advantage of the wealth of information that's available here at PS -- and I'm not talking about just the forums, although it'd be great if you hung out here to see what others ask, the answers they receive, post additional questions of your own, etc. But also click through what all is under the tabs near the top of your screen. If you'd like, run searches of the diamonds in the PS database, using select parameters, but do it "for fun"... just to see what's out there, not to pressure yourself into purchasing right away.

I do kinda agree with Molly. If you feel like you are being overcharged or someone is making maybe too much money off you, or you don't want to spend the money on an ideal cut, maybe you should just not buy yet. Take some time away. Think about the information your have learned. Go actually see the stones in person. After all, you could say any diamond selling is ripping you off. You don't need a diamond. No one does. Why pay so much for something you don't need, anything you don't need?

I purchased a GIA 3X to start with, that had great specs and I thought, ehhh, it was good enough. The longer I wore it, the more I noticed the little dark spots showing leakage. I am super anal. And then I looked at WF ACA stones, and BGD stones, that had hardly any leakage. I couldn't see it. Over time, I found I did not like the reflection patterns as much as I liked the look of old european cuts, and antique cushion cuts. So I ended up trading in my MRB for an OEC. If I could do it over, I probably would have waited and bought precision cut, newly cut old european cut. It does not show any darkness in the center of the stone, which is what I found really bugged me. It's a catch 22. If you don't order it and wear it for a while, you won't know what you like and don't like. If you order a stone like WF's ACA, you won't appreciate how beautiful a stone you have because you didn't have a so-so stone to start with. I do think you won't be happy either way if you continue to think about it as someone/company is overcharging you unfairly. Maybe you aren't thinking unfairly, but your seeming lack of peace over the purchase seems to indicate that. And with a purchase that is such a large amount, I wouldn't want it if I thought someone was taking advantage of me. I would want to feel like I paid a fair price. AFter all, the company is in business to make money, not to do tons of work, provides lots of service, and then barely breakeven, or make a little bit of money. I don't think WF knocked me over the head and ran off with my wallet. If I bought from Tiffany, Graff, other big retailers, I would think that. But there are people who would not agree even with them, so each person's definition of "fair price" can be different too. Good luck. I would not want you to spend money and buy a 8.5 when you can get a 10. But may be you will need to go through the process to make those "mistakes" before you can understand and appreciate what a 10 is. Good luck and I hope you enjoy whatever diamond you get.

 

[lucida]

I do kinda agree with Molly. If you feel like you are being overcharged or someone is making maybe too much money off you, or you don't want to spend the money on an ideal cut, maybe you should just not buy yet. Take some time away. Think about the information your have learned. Go actually see the stones in person. After all, you could say any diamond selling is ripping you off. You don't need a diamond. No one does. Why pay so much for something you don't need, anything you don't need?

I purchased a GIA 3X to start with, that had great specs and I thought, ehhh, it was good enough. The longer I wore it, the more I noticed the little dark spots showing leakage. I am super anal. And then I looked at WF ACA stones, and BGD stones, that had hardly any leakage. I couldn't see it. Over time, I found I did not like the reflection patterns as much as I liked the look of old european cuts, and antique cushion cuts. So I ended up trading in my MRB for an OEC. If I could do it over, I probably would have waited and bought precision cut, newly cut old european cut. It does not show any darkness in the center of the stone, which is what I found really bugged me. It's a catch 22. If you don't order it and wear it for a while, you won't know what you like and don't like. If you order a stone like WF's ACA, you won't appreciate how beautiful a stone you have because you didn't have a so-so stone to start with. I do think you won't be happy either way if you continue to think about it as someone/company is overcharging you unfairly. Maybe you aren't thinking unfairly, but your seeming lack of peace over the purchase seems to indicate that. And with a purchase that is such a large amount, I wouldn't want it if I thought someone was taking advantage of me. I would want to feel like I paid a fair price. AFter all, the company is in business to make money, not to do tons of work, provides lots of service, and then barely breakeven, or make a little bit of money. I don't think WF knocked me over the head and ran off with my wallet. If I bought from Tiffany, Graff, other big retailers, I would think that. But there are people who would not agree even with them, so each person's definition of "fair price" can be different too. Good luck. I would not want you to spend money and buy a 8.5 when you can get a 10. But may be you will need to go through the process to make those "mistakes" before you can understand and appreciate what a 10 is. Good luck and I hope you enjoy whatever diamond you get.

Thank you and I agree with every point all of you have made. I need to really do some more thinking so I don't hurry and be sure that I'm making the right decision. Thanks again. I'll update you guys once I do make a purchase...

 

[foxinsox]

Good thinking - if you're going to spend money you spent 10 years saving for, it's got to be a transaction that feels good to you. Otherwise you'll always feel unhappy with your diamond and I really think you should feel happy when you've got a sparkly honker on your hand instead of wondering if it was the right buy.

 

[ringo865]

You were almost ready to spend $171k on a stone with a 4.2 HCA and didn't think that was a "ripoff". Yet after finding you could spend less than half of that for a top of the line superior performer from a company that is ISO 9000 certified (whiteflash), with a lifetime trade in policy, you wonder if thatbit a ripoff. You could buy a small house with the "rest of" your original diamond budget buying from WF compared to your original stone.

Can you see if there are any "hearts on fire" dealers near you. Leave your wallet at home and go see some of their stones in a range of colors - but not necessarily a D and an H next to each other D-E, G-H, heck even I or J. See what a great cut does to break the light into little blinding beams of joy.

The run over to Kay or Jared (again, keep your wallet at home). See what they have (ask to see their best diamonds). Then come back and let the nice people here help you (for free, with no agenda, getting no kickbacks, for no other reason but the sheer joy of helping people "bling to the maximum").

Especially with 100% return policies from the vetted vendors recommended here, you're not going to get ripped off.

 

[lucida]

You were almost ready to spend $171k on a stone with a 4.2 HCA and didn't think that was a "ripoff". Yet after finding you could spend less than half of that for a top of the line superior performer from a company that is ISO 9000 certified (whiteflash), with a lifetime trade in policy, you wonder if thatbit a ripoff. You could buy a small house with the "rest of" your original diamond budget buying from WF compared to your original stone.

Can you see if there are any "hearts on fire" dealers near you. Leave your wallet at home and go see some of their stones in a range of colors - but not necessarily a D and an H next to each other D-E, G-H, heck even I or J. See what a great cut does to break the light into little blinding beams of joy.

The run over to Kay or Jared (again, keep your wallet at home). See what they have (ask to see their best diamonds). Then come back and let the nice people here help you (for free, with no agenda, getting no kickbacks, for no other reason but the sheer joy of helping people "bling to the maximum").

Especially with 100% return policies from the vetted vendors recommended here, you're not going to get ripped off.

You're right, but I don't think I mentioned $171k? I was to buy it at $100k and that was way over my budget and was scrambling to see how I was to pay for it as she put me on the spot to buy it asap and I'm glad I backed out in time, but thought that it was such a good deal, looking at it on paper and not analyzing it with all that I've learned now. I'm glad I got so much help and insight from all of you. I have never gone into those chain mall shops as I know they carry low end merchandise. I always like to do my research and know what I'm getting. Obviously I'm not in the jewelry business, but I happen to love the subject, so I always want to learn, but wouldn't want to be scammed as I worked too hard to save this up and want to make an educated decision. I'm grateful that all of you are available and are giving your honest suggestions and opinions which I'm trusting 100%.

 

[foxinsox]

I understand not wanting to be scammed but who is more likely to be scamming you - the company who provides you all the documentation around light performance, how it's measured and how their product stacks up or the seller who says "here is the best you've ever seen, but you have to buy it now or you'll miss out on this great deal I'm giving you".
The companies recommended here provide objective measurement of their products' performance using industry standard equipment so you can safely compare and know exactly what you're getting. They won't tell you it's the best of the best or puff it up, just tell you it is what it is.
Do what ringo suggested - find some branded cut dealers and just go looking. Don't plan to buy but just look and work out what your eyes like. That's part of it too, not just the paper specifications.
Good luck! This is a fun thing to do, treating yourself to a super pretty thing. I hope you enjoy it.

 

[ringo865]

You may even find, as many of us here have, that you have a hankering for old cuts (or newly cut old cuts). In which case, there will still be plenty of pricescopers here to help you find beautiful old/new-old cut stones.

I'm super glad you bolted out the door on hearing that high pressure tactic. Buy this stone in the next 3 minutes or else! Egad.