NEED Help to see if diamond purchase is good for d/fl/3x diamond

lucida · May 4, 2017

Hello Professionals:
I'm in the market to purchase an investment diamond and also enjoy it. I only want brilliant round cut GIA, d color, IF clarity and 3x. Well I've tried looking and the best one I've located was from a reputable dealer in the US. It is GIA certified with all the parameters I'm looking for.
1) How do I find out the wholesale pricing? (Rappaport?) I used to subscribe to it years ago, but not any more.
2) Also I plugged it in the Holloway Advisor and it only came back at 4.2, which is really concerning me.
3) astly it has flourescence and does that affect the appearance (I know it decreases the value, but not sure how much). Here are the values of it in this image.
Can anyone help in making a decision?

bmfang · May 4, 2017

Pavilion angle is a little too high (for 35.5 crown angle, 40.6 pavilion angle would be better). If the table was 57 also, that would be better, but a 58 table with 35.5 CA and 40.6 PA should look work out as well.

My understanding after some reading is that strong fluor in D-F stones could knock between 0-15% off the "value". Good buying value if the fluor doesn't affect transparency of the stone (historically D-F stones that had fluor were popular at a point in time), but reselling could be a problem as the general public is told nowadays that fluor in diamonds is a no-no.

tyty333 · May 4, 2017

You need to post the aset image. Just from the numbers it is not well cut. You do know that diamonds are not good investments? You
will most likely not get your money back out of it if you have to sell. If you dont mind that and want to enjoy a stone then no big deal.
Do get one that is well cut so that you can enjoy it though.

flyingpig · May 4, 2017

https://enchanteddiamonds.com/diamonds/view/R355-056157236

Steep, deep, absent of contrast, blatant leakage, cheated girdle

bmfang · May 4, 2017

Yikes! The ASET is horrible. Ring of death around the central part.

I'd rather have this one instead from WF if I had that type of cash to burn:
https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3204378.htm

Sure it's only a 1.1 D IF ACA, but it has the best cut quality out there and looks utterly gorgeous!

lucida · May 4, 2017

Hello and thanks to all of the people who responded. Well how would I know what to get then? I chose 3x so the cut would not be a problem.
Also, where may I find out wholesale prices from? How much is this kind of a diamond worth? I saw the link which stated $112k. Thanks so much for this as the seller said it was overseas, etc. I won't be buying it. So how would I know it's a good performer? I am confused. I would really like to purchase a 3ct with these parameters. Any recommendation then on where I can buy from that would be honest? Thank you all.

Tophat1 · May 4, 2017

A diamond like this one has an impeccable cut

https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3802914.htm

Color and clarity are very good and no detractors will be observed. D color and IF are overkill unless you are taking your certificate around with you.

bmfang · May 4, 2017

Or this one over at JA
https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-di...-d-color-if-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-2457007

For an indication of how much less one would pay for a stone with strong fluor:
https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-di...-d-color-if-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-2183081

bmfang · May 4, 2017

For a 3+ct D IF at James Allen with marginally better proportions but more importantly no fluorescence:
https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-di...-d-color-if-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-2654087

If I had a lazy USD200k in the bank, I'd rather pay off my mortgage or use that on actual investments rather than a diamond.

bmfang · May 4, 2017

lucida said:
Hello and thanks to all of the people who responded. Well how would I know what to get then? I chose 3x so the cut would not be a problem.
Also, where may I find out wholesale prices from? How much is this kind of a diamond worth? I saw the link which stated $112k. Thanks so much for this as the seller said it was overseas, etc. I won't be buying it. So how would I know it's a good performer? I am confused. I would really like to purchase a 3ct with these parameters. Any recommendation then on where I can buy from that would be honest? Thank you all.

GIA 3X is not a guarantee of impeccable cut. There are plenty of GIA 3X stones that are 3X's but have horrendous light performance. That stone you were thinking of intially is one such stone.

The same parameters that the PS old hands recommend for smaller stones should be applied to these larger round brilliants as well.

I normally start searching using these parameters:
Table: 54-58
Depth: 61 - 62.8
Crown angle: 33-34 degrees (sweet spot is between 34.4-34.8 in my books)
Pavilion Angle: 40.2-41 degrees (sweet spot is between 40.6-40.8, though a 41 PA can work with a 33CA at times)

After finding some candidates, run the numbers through the HCA, those that return a HCA under 2 make it through to the next round which involves looking at the stone visually (either in person or more likely, via magnified videos) and the use of Idealscope and ASET imagery to determine best light performance.

bmfang · May 4, 2017

flyingpig said:
https://www.bluenile.com/diamond-details/LD01407598?click_id=177027443
200k.

D FL/IF already is an extremely narrow set of criteria. And we are talking 3ct+. Diamonds are cut to preserve as much weight as possible. This is extremely true for 3ct/D/IF. They are very very rare. You will either end up buying a poor cut diamond, or pay a high premium for a well cut diamond (see Bluenile link. Ctrl+Click to see)

I am not recommending this particular stone. I am just presenting what's out there.

This stone is a much better stone proportions wise than the 3.37ct D IF I linked to at James Allen above. But like you flyingpig, I wouldn't be recommending either of them (like you, a presentation of what's out there).

Interestingly, that Blue Nile stone was graded in 2008 by GIA and has most likely been languishing in the Blue Nile inventory since that time.

Dancing Fire · May 4, 2017

Investing in diamonds is a waste of $$$...

SomethingNew · May 4, 2017

If you look at diamonds purely as an investment, then yes, you will end up losing money as a consumer, but I think the OP wants a high quality diamond so he/she can enjoy it while still be able preserve as much value as possible, then I think that's totally fine.

@lucida, of course, it's not like you are going to carry around the certificate with you. But only you would know it is a high quality stone, so all you need to care is YOU and that you are going to be happy with it.

Having said that, do take the advice of most PS-ers here: Cut is king! That's the most important, and I am sure you have already read a lot about cut. Other than that, if you are truly going for the best quality, don't pick anything with fluorescence, not even faint, especially if you are already paying such a premium for a D color. Also, try to shoot for FL if possible, I understand it is even more rare and maybe more costly than IF, but if you are to spend the $$$, go for the best. Lastly, most highly valued D color may already be a Type IIA, you need to ask and get the side letter that goes along with the GIA.

Most importantly, with the amount of money you want to spend, you should be able to get more info/images/video on the stone. Don't rush thru the process, once you find something, put it on hold and post pictures/images here so experts here can help you analyze it.

SomethingNew · May 4, 2017

btw, if you really want to see the Rap report, I am sure you can go shop around in most diamond districts, like the LA diamond district, ask around and with some persistence, you should be able to get yourself a copy, or at least take a peek.

bmfang · May 4, 2017

Only 3+ct D FL that I've been able to find this far is this one:
https://enchanteddiamonds.com/diamonds/view/R301-59014Z123?

Table (57), depth (61.

and PA (41) are fine. CA however isn't at 35. Rough calculations suggest that it should have been 2.97ct if it were cut for beauty. They decided to leave the extra 4 points on (the MED-SLTHK girdle perhaps?) to get it over the 3ct weight marker. ASET for it looks OK but not ideal compared to the ASETs we are used to seeing on WF, BGD, CBI, VC, GOG stones.

$171k is a lot to pay for a stone that hasn't been cut to maximise the beauty of it.

KinoChoco · May 4, 2017

You won't preserve much of the value if you're opting for 'investment'.

The only value of normal diamonds (regardless color and clarity) in the market are dependence on your fellow buyers and there's not many ordinary buyers out there looking for a D FL normal diamond. So my best bet is, you'll end up losing most of the value, heck, it will probably lose more value than a non D FL diamond. Also remember to price in the downtrend of diamond in the coming years or even decades.

SomethingNew · May 4, 2017

bmfang said:
Only 3+ct D FL that I've been able to find this far is this one:
https://enchanteddiamonds.com/diamonds/view/R301-59014Z123?

Table (57), depth (61. and PA (41) are fine. CA however isn't at 35. Rough calculations suggest that it should have been 2.97ct if it were cut for beauty. They decided to leave the extra 4 points on (the MED-SLTHK girdle perhaps?) to get it over the 3ct weight marker. ASET for it looks OK but not ideal compared to the ASETs we are used to seeing on WF, BGD, CBI, VC, GOG stones.

$171k is a lot to pay for a stone that hasn't been cut to maximise the beauty of it.

Keep shopping. With the amount you might be spending, probably easier to have a few trusted vendors to source you a stone, and have them give you the most competitive price. Have the vendors get you the images/videos, let them earn the business from you.

lucida · May 5, 2017

Hello All, thanks so much for your input. I already turned this one down, as not one person said it was a good diamond. The seller was astonished and said you can't get anything better.
I need help for funding a trustable vendor and where can I find the wholesale pricing? I have been searching and searching for months online and I thought I found the best diamond. Luckily all of you PS professionals are honest. It took me literally more than 10 years to save up for this and it's my only chance of getting such a piece, so I can't afford to take a chance and lose out. Thanks again and please let me know if you know of such sellers and pricing.

Sagefemme · May 5, 2017

I'm curious how "wholesale pricing" comes into your plan?

KinoChoco · May 5, 2017

lucida said:
Hello All, thanks so much for your input. I already turned this one down, as not one person said it was a good diamond. The seller was astonished and said you can't get anything better.
I need help for funding a trustable vendor and where can I find the wholesale pricing? I have been searching and searching for months online and I thought I found the best diamond. Luckily all of you PS professionals are honest. It took me literally more than 10 years to save up for this and it's my only chance of getting such a piece, so I can't afford to take a chance and lose out. Thanks again and please let me know if you know of such sellers and pricing.

Why would you want to spend 10+ years of savings for a mere diamond with no return value? Are you certainly sure? I mean, if you're rich and this stone only worth few months or even 1 or 2 years of savings i might still understand, but 10+ years......

bmfang · May 5, 2017

You keep talking bout wholesale pricing. The only way you are going to get wholesale pricing in my mind is if you own the cutting operation and you pay for the rough in order to cut it rather than a retail price for a polished stone.

That is not going to happen. All of the diamond vendors that you will be seeking to purchase from will not be giving you wholesale prices. They are running a business and they will want to be paid the appropriate level for such a rare stone.

But as others have said, you seem to be willing to spend 10+ years of savings on a stone that you will likely not see returned to you when you try to sell it at a later stage as your potential market for such a stone will be incredibly limited. A 3+ct D FL is not the most liquid type of stone.

I'm genuinely curious to understand why you are willing to undertake such a transaction when this has the potential to wipe you out financially and not provide you with the investment returns that you seem to think you will receive in the future.

gm89uk · May 5, 2017

It would be really interesting if you'd kindly elaborate on what you want out of this purchase. IF diamond are only so at X10 and look higher and they are not IF anymore. They are not perfect diamonds.

I get the hunch you just really want a D IF diamond. Do you perceive this to mean you have the best quality sparkliest diamond because this is not the case.

As an investment as mentioned it is going to be extremely hard to move. As you've seen in the large vendors such as BNile, they've not managed to move a stone for nearly 10 years. Individually I think you'll be stuck with it for years, if not ever.

If you just really want a high quality diamond, cut perfection is cheaper and will give you the most beautiful diamond money can buy. If you really just want a D and IF then do you want it enough to spend 10 years saving and is the juice worth the squeeze. I think it'll just be useful to clarify exactly what you want out of this purchase

yssie · May 5, 2017

Are you looking for an FL stone, or an IF? You've stated both, but they are not synonymous.

You will not set an FL stone - as soon as you do clarity will degrade to IF. An FL will not be a stone you wear and enjoy daily: it will be a stone that sits in a velveteen display case in the bank safe... And if you aren't choosing a stone to wear and enjoy, cut is the least critical priority - I should think weight comes above all else, given static requirements of D/FL/no fluor. Though I will echo what others have said already - "obtainable" diamonds without exceptional characteristics or cachet are dreadful investments.

If you're looking for a stone to enjoy visually cut goes to the top of my list as well.

bmfang · May 5, 2017

SomethingNew said:
btw, if you really want to see the Rap report, I am sure you can go shop around in most diamond districts, like the LA diamond district, ask around and with some persistence, you should be able to get yourself a copy, or at least take a peek.

OP, while you may get a chance to view a Rapaport price sheet, please keep in mind that those prices are NOT what actually gets paid between diamond dealers. And any seller of a stone who uses a Rap sheet as a gimmick to convince you that their stone is a "bargain" cheaper than wholesale prices is more than likely lying to you and is still making money off you.

bmfang · May 5, 2017

yssie said:
...

You will not set an FL stone - as soon as you do clarity will degrade to IF. An FL will not be a stone you wear and enjoy daily: it will be a stone that sits in a velveteen display case in the bank safe... And if you aren't choosing a stone to wear and enjoy, cut is the least critical priority - I should think weight comes above all else, given static requirements of D/FL/no fluor. ...

Good point about the setting of a FL stone resulting in a downgrade to IF.

For an "investment" stone, I still would think that cut still carries more weight than, well, weight. A heavy stone that looks good due to it having impeccable cut will likely sell for more (and "retain value") than a stone that looks like a dog has thrown up inside it.

That's the reason why to my mind, some of the ridiculously expensive stones (say for example, those cut by Graff Diamonds) would sell for more at an auction compared with a run of the mill stone that is just heavy.

LLJsmom · May 5, 2017

What kind of diamond (cut, color, clarity, carat) do you actually want and why? Do you want and IF or flawless diamond because you think it is more visually beautiful or just because you cannot stand the thought of any flaws? Do you want a D because you want the icy whiteness of a D or because a D is the highest color available? Do you care about how visually beautiful it is or just want all the best letters and numbers on a certificate?

As other posters have said, having a D, IF diamond says NOTHING about how beautiful it is. CUT is king to determine the beauty of diamond. That is why you NEED an ASET, and all the details of the diamond. There is no website/vendor that allows you to buy wholesale. If you find one, run away. It's not real.

Since you plan on spending that much, you have a lot of room. Let people know what you are looking for, specifically and why, and we will steer you in the right direction.

lucida · May 5, 2017

Wow, this has been a reality check with all of your opinions and questions! Thanks so much!
Well, I think the value of something is what someone is willing to pay for it (in general). And from what I understand, unless you're in the industry (which I'm not), I'm not going to be given a fair chance at getting a very good deal. All the dealers online that I've been looking into all look like I'm their prey or something.
The reason why I wanted a perfect diamond is for investment purposes, but I want to wear it and enjoy it and then hand down to my kids. I want something that will not depreciate in value. That's a good point on the FL clarity. I shouldn't look into buying an FL diamond. The more I prolong this purchase, the more I learn and then get discouraged about the process. I want a nice diamond (as perfect as possible) within my budget, but everyone wants to make money and scam me from what I understand. If you make 2k or 5k, fine, but from what I understand people want to make 30+%. I am by no means rich or anywhere close. I am just an engineer who loves diamonds and have worked tirelessly to save this money. I don't have other houses or investments, but I do love diamonds, so I wanted a plain diamond to wear forever. It seems like this is getting harder and harder to trust and believe any seller (especially the one for this which I thought was very reputable told me this particular diamond was overseas and I had to have funds wired before it's sent, where it turns out that this is available in the US on other sites too). So you have to wonder, is there any credibility and integrity left? I worked so hard for this money and I can't just blow it off and get scammed. As for the pricing, I have no idea what the dealer-to-dealer pricing is (obviously not the rappaport). So I'm stuck on this issue at many levels...

Tophat1 · May 5, 2017

Let us help you find a beautiful diamond for half what that original stone was going to cost. We promise you it will be a stunner!

lucida · May 5, 2017

Tophat1 said:
Let us help you find a beautiful diamond for half what that original stone was going to cost. We promise you it will be a stunner!

Ok, thanks. How may I find out what you have or what can you offer knowing this info? Thanks.

gm89uk · May 5, 2017

What your reputable vendor told you does not undermine his integrity. It's rather the industry standard. Few people really own stones, they are just part of a transition between you and the cutting house. B&M will often ask for deposit before grabbing a stone from overseas, some won't but lots do. Not telling it's available online from their competitors, well that's just business. You pay for their customer service and attention, and the fact you can see the stone in person. Saying it's the best money can buy is an ambiguous statement, technically in carat and clarity and GIA certificate it is (and many jewellers will believe this) but technically we know this isn't the case.

If I were in your shoes, I'd buy a nice diamond from a vendor with a great trade up policy that isn't ridiculously high specced but with perfect cut, like whiteflash. 100 percent of that value can be put towards an upgrade later, and the $$$ you save can be invested in something more worthwhile for your children. If your children ever decide to sell the diamond investment, they will just wish you gave them money instead of the hassle and struggle to sell such a large D/IF stone, with probable significant loss of value compared to what you'll pay to a dealer. You can't really cut out the middle man I'm afraid..

Something like this
https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3802915.htm

If you don't wish to upgrade
https://www.jamesallen.com/mobile/l...g-color-vs2-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-2695919

I'd maybe contact IDJ who is an excellent vendor with a lower mark up

NEED Help to see if diamond purchase is good for d/fl/3x diamond

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