NEED Help to see if diamond purchase is good for d/fl/3x diamond

[bmfang]

Thanks to those of you that gave sincere responses and suggestions. This isn't a $10 purchase that I don't mind losing. It's an enormous amount of money for me. I am being overly cautious and learning along the way. I am surprised some of you think I'm "trolling" the forum, I'm not sure why you'd get that idea and I'm definitely not rich. For me this is a huge purchase and I'm here to find out more and not offend anyone. It took me years to save up and if you think I'll just go off and make an overnight purchase, that's not me
I didn't save this money overnight. The engineer in me needs to know for sure that I'm making the right purchase. For those of you that have helped me out, I'm really grateful to you and you know who you people are!
And the few that are offended or annoyed, feel free not to read this thread and waste your time or mine or others. I don't have the proper knowledge which is why I'm here. I need to justify to myself that I'm getting the best possible diamond that's right for me. I'm glad that this post was an eye opener for me at least. Isn't this the point of these forums? Thank you.

lucida, many of us here have given our advice but to us it seems as though you are just ignoring it on a continual search to find a “bargain/deal/etc”.

In this diamond world, what you pay is what you get. It is highly unlikely (i’m willing to go out on a limb here and suggest 99.95% probability) that you will be able to get a super ideal D-F FL/IF 3+ct stone for the your budget. Unless you go down the route of lax graded stones (which it appears you don’t want to go down that path given you rejected the stone suggested to you by IDJ, if you had suggested to them that you were looking at 3ct plus PS quality stones within your budget, they could have tried to find something but I have a feeling they wouldn’t have met your liking).

The WF ACA stone is a stupendously good buy and is good value for the money. You will likely kick yourself if someone else snaps it up before you eventually make a decision. Otherwise, take a look at sites like B2C Jewels and Adiamor. You are unlikely to be unable to negotiate with them on price (the same as WF).

 

[bmfang]

I just checked the BGD inventory and if this stone hasn’t been already mentioned, this one looks like a good one for the price. A beautifully cut stone. If you manage to get in touch with Lesley, you might even be able to wring a little more off the wire price.

https://www.briangavindiamonds.com/.../3.291-h-vs2-round-diamond-ags-c-104094416003

 

[lucida]

Hi Lucida,

It is good that you wish to educate yourself and spend your money wisely

I think there has been some frustration expressed because your current searches have included diamonds from ebay and similar (IIRC), vendors which are very unlikely to provide the quality of diamond we know is out there and you are looking for.

Key things to consider would be:

- Diamonds are not an 'investment' - they very rarely increase in price substantially. They do hold a percentage of their value quite well, though, so you should get back a reasonable percentage of what you pay if you ever need to sell (with the caveat that a 'quick sale required' situation means taking a lower price).

- There are very few 'bargains' out there - 'New' (to the market) diamonds have prices built up from the margins required by the mines, the cutters, the wholesalers and the vendors, so they are naturally more expensive, because you are paying people's wages and shareholders' dividends. All these stages of production to get them to the consumer market make it basically impossible for a diamond to 'slip through the net' and be priced far lower than it should be - one can look for such bargains but one will be looking for a long time. There may be bargains in the secondhand market (with reference to my first point and, presumably, why you have searched on ebay etc.) but individuals selling urgently at low prices will sell to (local B&M) vendors with ready-money and few questions, who will pounce on deals and then build margin back in to their re-sale prices. Additionally, such vendors and individuals are unlikely to have access to IdealScopes and ASETscopes, so you would be 'buying blind' if you went with them, and they will likely have poor Returns policies, if they even permit returns, so you could get stuck with a dud that cost you all your savings.

It is for these reasons that we recommend the PS-recommended vendors. Will you pay market rates or a little more? Yes, but you get excellent customer service, great Returns and upgrade policies, and ultimately a stone you will love every day and have no regrets over

I think it’s USD but she has more hope if in pounds.

Thank you for the info. Well those earlier responses on my part were part of my learning curve. I am not searching anything on Ebay and am looking at the recommended vendors. I realize there's no bargain and it's not an investment most of the time.
My issue at this point is to use one of the vendors and get the diamond I want. I wanted the WF ACA for sure. I got a response saying this was the most expense and another person said it was the least expensive out of this elite cut category. This is what I'm now confused on. I get that I can compromise the color or clarity a little, but not the cut. So in comparing the WF ACA, does this directely compare with for example the Enchanted Diamonds site where the cut is 100%? What other cut or site can I use to compare the ACA cut? I want a Perfect cut like the ACA, is there another site or product name that I would have a choice of or is there no other comparable diamond cut out there? That's what I want to understand. btw, their upgrade policy doesn't interest me that much as I'm not planning on upgrading and I think part of the reason why it may be expensive than others is due to this factor (I may be wrong).

 

[bmfang]

Enchanted Diamonds’ cut score is proprietary to them. In my experience, you need to look closely at any associated scope images and videos in order to determine if their cut is comparable to a WF ACA, BGD Signature/Black or CBI diamond. IMHO, they are usually on par with James Allen’s True Hearts or Blue Nile’s (former) Signature Ideal range.

 

[lucida]

I just checked the BGD inventory and if this stone hasn’t been already mentioned, this one looks like a good one for the price. A beautifully cut stone. If you manage to get in touch with Lesley, you might even be able to wring a little more off the wire price.

https://www.briangavindiamonds.com/.../3.291-h-vs2-round-diamond-ags-c-104094416003

Thank you. How would this compare with the WF diamond I've been looking at for a while:

https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3802915.htm

(other than the obvious color/clarity), cut-wise, how would you compare?

 

[bmfang]

Cut wise they are on par. I would say, potentially better than WF’s ACA as BGD is more consistent in cut quality based on the stones I’ve looked at virtually on both the BGD and WF sites.

 

[lucida]

Cut wise they are on par. I would say, potentially better than WF’s ACA as BGD is more consistent in cut quality based on the stones I’ve looked at virtually on both the BGD and WF sites.

Thank you,so to confirm the cut on this BGD diamond is better than that of the WF? And is 8-9k cheaper?

 

[gm89uk]

No it's not, bmfang is referring to his opinion about BGD Vs WF cut in general. Some people prefer WF, some people prefer BGD, ditto for HPD. Don't over complicate it, there aren't millions to choose from. Pick from the vendor that has the right stone, at the right price at the right time, particularly if you aren't fussed with upgrade policy. The stone is an H Vs G which explains much of the price difference.

 

[lucida]

Thank you,so to confirm the cut on this BGD diamond is better than that of the WF? And is 8-9k cheaper?

Cut wise they are on par. I would say, potentially better than WF’s ACA as BGD is more consistent in cut quality based on the stones I’ve looked at virtually on both the BGD and WF sites.

Also just out of curiosity, I tried searching similar diamonds on the BG site, this one came up similar, but with $30k difference.
https://www.briangavindiamonds.com/...-bkags-104093020001#!prettyPhoto[gallery2]/1/

Other than the color upgrade, looking at the Aset and other images, I am not sure which one would be better. The cheaper one you found had a Holloway score of 0.7 while this one is 1.1.
Any recommendations? Thank you in advance.

 

[rockysalamander]

Thank you,so to confirm the cut on this BGD diamond is better than that of the WF? And is 8-9k cheaper?

The CUT is the same quality between WF and BGD, although potentially achieved through different angle combos.Do note, that you are comparing apples and oranges by comparing difference color and clarity ratings and hitting difference carat milestones (just over 3.0, over 3.1 and over 3.2). Me, I'd go for the BGD H&A in this lineup if upgrade/trade-in was not important. If those are important, I'd go with WF if I first checked with @Wink at HPD and they did not have a 3.1 or greater than could beat the BGD one.

BGD Sig H&A = $16,560 per carat, 3.291 H VS2
BGD Black = $26,795 3.068 F VS1
WF ACA = $19,094.06 per carat 3.115 G VS2
HPD CBI = $16,240.07 per carat 2.67 H VS1*

The BGD Black is a custom cut stone and is said to have even better light return than other super-ideals and they only include colors D-G, IF-VS2. I've never seen one in person, so I have no opinion if they are in fact better, but $30k difference would have blind me with the difference for me to pay that much more.

HCA is not used once you compare ASET images. HCA is used to screen out stones with complimentary angle to predicted performance. ASET proves performance and HCA become irrelevant.

*https://www.hpdiamonds.com/en-us/diamonddetail/HPD8244

 

[bmfang]

Also just out of curiosity, I tried searching similar diamonds on the BG site, this one came up similar, but with $30k difference.
https://www.briangavindiamonds.com/...-bkags-104093020001#!prettyPhoto[gallery2]/1/

BG Black range is said to have better light return due to the improvements made to the cut of minor facets like the star facets and lower girdle facets. Is it worth the extra cash? Up to the purchaser. For me, if money was not an issue, then yes. If looking for a stone on a budget, there is a minute difference between BG Black and the regular BG Signature stones.

 

[december-fire]

Please, please, please listen to LLJsmom and go visit Victor Canera!
When I suggested going to Whiteflash, I didn't know you lived in the LA area.

Your response to LLJsmom's excellent suggestion was to say "Thanks. I always like to learn more."
That is not what I was hoping to read.
If, and only if, you sincerely want to learn about diamonds and possibly purchase one for your own use and pleasure, then tell us you have an appointment booked with Victor Canera.

lucida,

Have you tried on diamonds of various mm diameter to determine what you think looks best on you?

There is no right, wrong or ideal mm diameter. Each of us has our own opinion as to what we think looks best on us or best suits our lifestyle. Of course, our opinion can, and often does, change over time as our lifestyle changes and/or we get used to wearing a certain size.

What is your ring size? We can show you how a particular mm diameter might look on your finger.
Of course, its not the same as trying things on in person.

Some people want to say their diamond is a particular ct weight; 1 ct, 1.5, whatever.
Its a mind thing that, in my opinion, can increase the price without providing any visual difference.

Would you be happy with the look of a diamond that is 2 cts?

I'm a size 7. I want to get a lot of wear out of it and enojoy it. My engagement ring is a 1 ct. Since I won't be able to buy more (unless I buy from WF where I can upgrade if I have more discretionary funds), I wanted something in the 2.5 to 3+ ct range. Yes you're right, I've never tried on a 3ct or even 2ct ring. I didn't think of this either... something else to consider.

@lucida ,

The above quotes are from June 6, Page 8 of this thread.

1. Have you visited Victor Canera? Or Whiteflash and Brian Gavin as suggested on Page 7/8?
2. Have you tried on diamonds of various mm diameter?
3. Have you seen different diamond colors?

 

[bmfang]

No it's not, bmfang is referring to his opinion about BGD Vs WF cut in general.

Precisely.

 

[msop04]

I would say this thread is getting ridiculous... but it was ridiculous PAGES ago.

@lucida, I feel like no matter what [great] advice is given to you, you are just not ready to accept that what you want is not in the budget you'd like to spend. Large diamonds cost money. Well cut diamonds cost more. Large, super ideal cut, HIGH COLOR/CLARITY diamonds cost even more. It seems to me you have several choices as to how to proceed:

1. buy a diamond from one of the vendors who keep being suggested since like page 1...
2. increase your budget and check all the boxes (Super Ideal, color, clarity, size)
3. stay within your budget and give on either size, color, clarity, super ideal, or a combination or these
4. don't buy a diamond

YES, it's a huge purchase. YES, it's an expensive purchase. YES, you should do your homework. However, there is really nothing more anyone can help you with or advise you on if you keep splitting hairs and not comparing apples to apples. It's clear your expectations exceed your budget, and you're having difficulty accepting that fact. If it were me, I would go to G/VS2 or even eye clean SI and get the biggest super ideal you can find (since super ideal is the most important spec to you), because you're not going to check every single "must have" box with your budget. Not in a super ideal. It's just not going to happen. If you're unwilling to accept this and figure out what you think the next best thing is TO YOU and/or be flexible within your budget, then you're going to keep going around in circles... for another 11+ pages -- and still no diamond.

This is seriously giving me a headache.

 

[cflutist]

I would say this thread is getting ridiculous... but it was ridiculous PAGES ago.

@lucida, I feel like no matter what [great] advice is given to you, you are just not ready to accept that what you want is not in the budget you'd like to spend. Large diamonds cost money. Well cut diamonds cost more. Large, super ideal cut, HIGH COLOR/CLARITY diamonds cost even more. It seems to me you have several choices as to how to proceed:

1. buy a diamond from one of the vendors who keep being suggested since like page 1...
2. increase your budget and check all the boxes (Super Ideal, color, clarity, size)
3. stay within your budget and give on either size, color, clarity, super ideal, or a combination or these
4. don't buy a diamond

YES, it's a huge purchase. YES, it's an expensive purchase. YES, you should do your homework. However, there is really nothing more anyone can help you with or advise you on if you keep splitting hairs and not comparing apples to apples. It's clear your expectations exceed your budget, and you're having difficulty accepting that fact. If it were me, I would go to G/VS2 or even eye clean SI and get the biggest super ideal you can find (since super ideal is the most important spec to you), because you're not going to check every single "must have" box with your budget. Not in a super ideal. It's just not going to happen. If you're unwilling to accept this and figure out what you think the next best thing is TO YOU and/or be flexible within your budget, then you're going to keep going around in circles... for another 11+ pages -- and still no diamond.

This is seriously giving me a headache.

@msop04
Thank you for posting this, you said it a lot better than I could. When she figures out #1 to #3 and truly accepts it, she has several options. 1 - to visit all the websites already listed and select a stone, 2 - continue to monitor her favorite vendors website for her perfect stone as what MissGotRocks did, she waited a year for her perfect ACA to be available at WF with all of the parameters she wanted or 3 - contact HPD-CBI and commission a stone to be cut of the carat weight, color, and clarity of her choosing. There is info on their website about this should she decide to go this route.

 

[december-fire]

Lucida,

You've clicked 'Like' on posts with great advice, but it doesn't seem as though you've followed through on the advice.

I'd love to know if you have gone to see and try on diamonds of various colors, clarity and mm diameters (because that's what is visually important, not carat size).

You may find that the ideal size for you and your lifestyle is around 2 carats or 2.5 carats. That is extremely important to know. There is a significant price increase to jump from 2 carats to 3 carats.

Similarly, color has a real impact on a diamond's price.

Ditto, clarity.

I am really into finance, research, precision, getting value for my money, etc., so I understand being driven by all those characteristics. The first step is to determine what I want and why.

If I was given a Super Ideal, D IF diamond that was 3 cts, or 7 cts, whatever, I can tell you that it would not get worn by me. I would sell it for a smaller G/H VS2 and pocket the extra cash.

Or I could give the Super Ideal 7 ct D IF to a PS member who wants that size, color, clarity.

Determining personal preferences is key - with everything in life.

You live in LA. Go and check things out in person to determine your personal preferences with size and color. A 3 ct sounds lovely, as does a 7 ct. But what if a 3 ct, in your opinion, looks too big on your hand as an everyday ring given your lifestyle? Notice the number of times I say 'you' and 'your'.

I do hope you won't click 'Like' but not respond to any of these basis questions/comments.

Wishing you all the best.

 

[lucida]

I'm not going outside of the vendors suggested. I don't know why some of you keep on saying that. In the beginning when I didn't know better, I was looking at other sites, but this is constantly coming up with some of your comments. And as I said, I'm educating myself. it's a dfficult purchase for me and I have a lot of other things going on in my life, so it's not like I will be buying it today, even though I can. I won't until I am completely comfortable with the purchase. I don't understand why some of you are so irritated and offended. Yes I understand the factors involved in the pricing and I'm not expecting to buy a perfectly cut diamond and D/IF. I'm considering a few at this moment and I'm taking into consideration some of the opinions here, such as the aset images which I don't truly understand perfectly. I had not idea what these were in the beginning, but now I won't buy one without it. I've watched a few videos and read up on it too. So excuse me, if you think I'm not taking your advice, I am actually. But some of you think I'm wasting your time or trolling, or whatever your thoughts are, that is not the case. Please understand my situation, I'm trying to digest and understand all of this information and see what makes sense to me. Instead of making helpful comments, I'm getting offended myself with some of you. I do appreciate the comments and suggestions of the people who are being sincere and help me out rather than the sarcastic comments which don't do anyone good. I'm learning from almost every good comment here, so thank you.

 

[msop04]

I'm not going outside of the vendors suggested. I don't know why some of you keep on saying that. In the beginning when I didn't know better, I was looking at other sites, but this is constantly coming up with some of your comments. And as I said, I'm educating myself. it's a dfficult purchase for me and I have a lot of other things going on in my life, so it's not like I will be buying it today, even though I can. I won't until I am completely comfortable with the purchase. I don't understand why some of you are so irritated and offended. Yes I understand the factors involved in the pricing and I'm not expecting to buy a perfectly cut diamond and D/IF. I'm considering a few at this moment and I'm taking into consideration some of the opinions here, such as the aset images which I don't truly understand perfectly. I had not idea what these were in the beginning, but now I won't buy one without it. I've watched a few videos and read up on it too. So excuse me, if you think I'm not taking your advice, I am actually. But some of you think I'm wasting your time or trolling, or whatever your thoughts are, that is not the case. Please understand my situation, I'm trying to digest and understand all of this information and see what makes sense to me. Instead of making helpful comments, I'm getting offended myself with some of you. I do appreciate the comments and suggestions of the people who are being sincere and help me out rather than the sarcastic comments which don't do anyone good. I'm learning from almost every good comment here, so thank you.

First of all, I hope you don't think that any of my comments to you were sarcastic or offensive, as I certainly never meant for them to be received as such. FTR, I don't think you're trolling at all.

I can only speak for myself when I say that my own frustration is seeing you "like" the great advice that's been given, but it seems you keep ignoring it by not comparing apple to apples, questioning what is a "good deal", splitting hairs, and maybe not understanding we almost always have to give a little on our "wants" when a budget must be respected. We all do it... you just have to know what you're willing to give on. When specs wants are "hard" and non-negotiable, the budget must change, when the budget can't be stretched, you may have to give on size or color, and so on...

I've noticed a continuing theme in your posts... and that is that this purchase is difficult, not fun, and may even be causing a certain amount of stress for you right now. I may not be 100% on that, but that's my guess from what you've written. What I do think is that your wants/needs/expectations are not on par with your budget. Unless you give on one or more of these aspects, this purchase will continue to be uncomfortable. We don't want that... you don't want that... diamonds are mean to be fun and enjoyed -- certainly not stressed over!

 

[lucida]

First of all, I hope you don't think that any of my comments to you were sarcastic or offensive, as I certainly never meant for them to be received as such. FTR, I don't think you're trolling at all.

I can only speak for myself when I say that my own frustration is seeing you "like" the great advice that's been given, but it seems you keep ignoring it by not comparing apple to apples, questioning what is a "good deal", splitting hairs, and maybe not understanding we almost always have to give a little on our "wants" when a budget must be respected. We all do it... you just have to know what you're willing to give on. When specs wants are "hard" and non-negotiable, the budget must change, when the budget can't be stretched, you may have to give on size or color, and so on...

I've noticed a continuing theme in your posts... and that is that this purchase is difficult, not fun, and may even be causing a certain amount of stress for you right now. I may not be 100% on that, but that's my guess from what you've written. What I do think is that your wants/needs/expectations are not on par with your budget. Unless you give on one or more of these aspects, this purchase will continue to be uncomfortable. We don't want that... you don't want that... diamonds are mean to be fun and enjoyed -- certainly not stressed over!

Thank you for understanding my point of view. Yes I liked all the advice including yours too that I thought helped me learn something or were genuine I understand you have to give and take on certain things and I am on a budget so I have to think about what things I can let go of a little. It is stressing me out a little actually, because I want to get the best daimond I can given my budget. I don't mean getting a "deal" because I've learned that's not going to happen. Once I make a purchase I can hopefully finally enjoy it. This amount is like a down payment for a house, so I'm being very cautious. I'm sorry for some of you if I'm taking time, but each time I'm learning something new. I'm now trying to figure out the entire Aset images. Am I right when I think that the patterns can be different, but as long as they are symmetric and even? Some of them have the green in the middle and others have red; I think this doesn't matter right? I'm going through this process now. Again my apologies I'm taking so long and thanks for understanding

 

[december-fire]

lucida,

I hope my posts didn't upset you. I sincerely wish you well and am offering advice and comments that I think will be beneficial to you.

I think you've placed a priority on cut and, if you want the top-of-the-line cut, you can simply pick a top-cut diamond from one of the PS recommended vendors; e.g., CBI from HPD, ACA from WF, etc.

Within those top-cut diamonds, narrow it down to the size, color and clarity ranges with which you'd be happy - or think you'd be happy; the recommended vendors all have return policies.

These vendors have carefully examined the diamonds before putting their top-cut brand on them, so no worries cut-wise.

As far as size, color and clarity, have you had a chance to visit Victor Canera?
Leave your cheque book at home, try on different sizes and take a look at different colors.
While at Victor Caneras, you can also see his 'Canera European Round', just to confirm that your preference is a MRB - which, of course, he also has available.
Like I said, leave the cheque book at home; the purpose of the trip is to help determine your personal preferences on size and colour, as well as clarity. I think the key ones to try and figure out are size and colour.

Diamond sizes, like settings, can look quite different to your eye on your hand compared to photos.

Come back with your thoughts after trying various-sized diamonds and checking out diamond colours.

Personally, I don't think you need to delve deeply into ASETs if you're going with a CBI, ACA, etc.
Folks here will provide feedback on your choices and perhaps provide other options, but the ASET is to inform about 'Cut'. Diamonds don't get branded CBI, ACA, etc., if their cut isn't the best.

I hate to use analogies because someone will always jump in and point out the ways the particular analogy is wrong, without getting the point. But here goes; you can purchase a great car without knowing much about car engines. Pick a reputable make/model which offers what you're looking for in the vehicle; reliability, features, passenger capacity, etc.

Finally, a key aspect in decision-making (after determining your objectives/needs/wants) is to consider 'Consequence of Error'. The great thing about using a PS recommended vendor is that consequence of error is minimal. Ensure you're familiar with the return policy and, if you're not happy with your purchase, return it within the stated timeframe and get a full refund. Minus shipping, I expect, but read the policy for a vendor before making a purchase.

A diamond purchase is not mandatory; significant expenditures bring a certain amount of stress, but a 'want' versus a 'need' should not be overly stressful. This is not a scenario with only one right answer; there are lots of gorgeous diamonds offered by reputable vendors who offer return/upgrade policies. Consequence of error is low.

 

[lucida]

lucida,

I hope my posts didn't upset you. I sincerely wish you well and am offering advice and comments that I think will be beneficial to you.

I think you've placed a priority on cut and, if you want the top-of-the-line cut, you can simply pick a top-cut diamond from one of the PS recommended vendors; e.g., CBI from HPD, ACA from WF, etc.

Within those top-cut diamonds, narrow it down to the size, color and clarity ranges with which you'd be happy - or think you'd be happy; the recommended vendors all have return policies.

These vendors have carefully examined the diamonds before putting their top-cut brand on them, so no worries cut-wise.

As far as size, color and clarity, have you had a chance to visit Victor Canera?
Leave your cheque book at home, try on different sizes and take a look at different colors.
While at Victor Caneras, you can also see his 'Canera European Round', just to confirm that your preference is a MRB - which, of course, he also has available.
Like I said, leave the cheque book at home; the purpose of the trip is to help determine your personal preferences on size and colour, as well as clarity. I think the key ones to try and figure out are size and colour.

Diamond sizes, like settings, can look quite different to your eye on your hand compared to photos.

Come back with your thoughts after trying various-sized diamonds and checking out diamond colours.

Personally, I don't think you need to delve deeply into ASETs if you're going with a CBI, ACA, etc.
Folks here will provide feedback on your choices and perhaps provide other options, but the ASET is to inform about 'Cut'. Diamonds don't get branded CBI, ACA, etc., if their cut isn't the best.

I hate to use analogies because someone will always jump in and point out the ways the particular analogy is wrong, without getting the point. But here goes; you can purchase a great car without knowing much about car engines. Pick a reputable make/model which offers what you're looking for in the vehicle; reliability, features, passenger capacity, etc.

Finally, a key aspect in decision-making (after determining your objectives/needs/wants) is to consider 'Consequence of Error'. The great thing about using a PS recommended vendor is that consequence of error is minimal. Ensure you're familiar with the return policy and, if you're not happy with your purchase, return it within the stated timeframe and get a full refund. Minus shipping, I expect, but read the policy for a vendor before making a purchase.

A diamond purchase is not mandatory; significant expenditures bring a certain amount of stress, but a 'want' versus a 'need' should not be overly stressful. This is not a scenario with only one right answer; there are lots of gorgeous diamonds offered by reputable vendors who offer return/upgrade policies. Consequence of error is low.

My apologies for the late reply due to a family issue.
Thank you, I think I will go to an actual trusted vendor, Victor Canera, most likely to see them first hand. I'd like to try them on to see what i feel comfortable with and what I like and if all of this is visible with the naked eye. I love your analogy of the consequence of error also. I agree with everything you say. I have to feel very comfortable and convinced with my purchase. I know there are some that are aggravated that it's taking me this long, but it's a huge purchase for me and I'm learning along the way. I want to make sure I'm in love with the piece. I'll update you guys as soon as I make a purchase or have a question. Again, thanks so much on all of your suggestions. I would have lost so much money had this community not been here to help me, so I'm thankful Thanks.