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I think you have received some very good advice. You have made your position quite clear. Many of us prefer the diamonds offered by Brian Gavin, Paul Slegers, Maarten DeWitte, Gabi Tolkowsky and others. It's not only Garry and Serg who have this opinion about ideal cut diamonds. You need to respect our opinions, just as you want us to respect yours. Honking your horn louder will not serve you well on this forum.Date: 2/18/2009 6:10:21 PM
Author: MissGotRocks
GIA excellent cut graded stones have more variance in them. Many people have bought them and loved them - depending on how the angles work. I don't think anyone is trying to say that they are all bad - just that they require further interpretation.
I had a 60/60 stone graded by GIA before their cut grading came into play. It was a white, brilliant stone. I was looking to trade it up to a larger stone - it was at the 2 carat mark. When I started reading about H&A and AGS0 stones, I really thought it was some sort of marketing gimmick. Then I went to see an ideal cut stone. I ended up trading that 60/60 stone for a 2 ct. AGS0 ideal cut stone. The difference - to me - was night and day. Finally I found that 'sparkle' that I had been missing for so long. Then I began reading and learning about crown/pavillion angle relationships and started understanding a bit about how they worked - or didn't. I eventually traded up to a 2.22 AGS0 stone - and I've been nothing but thrilled with the performance. The edge to edge brillance these ideal cut stones provide is is just a different look to my eyes than the 60/60 stones - and I saw alot of them as well. Who knows what the future holds in terms of diamond cutting? I look forward to new and different as well although I think today's ideal cuts will always hold a place in my heart so I understand you feeling the way you do about your concept of a beautiful stone. The 60/60's and today's version of an ideal cut stone are two different animals. Once you have pointed out the differences, you need to step back and let people make their own decisions.
Many of us have spent many hours here trying to learn and absorb all we can about the particulars of diamond cutting and grading. Certainly doesn't make us experts - it just gives us knowledge to make an informed decision when buying. While I appreciate you presenting the virtues of another cut, it doesn't and won't cancel out what many of us have seen and experienced with our own eyes and wallets.
You can only present information to people - what they choose to do with it is another matter. Honking the horn harder doesn't make the information more acceptable or believeable. It's just a different point of view to consider - then you have to step back and let people decide for themselves what they want. We don't necessarily champion our group of experts here - we have just watched and learned and seen the fruits of what they say delivered. The proof is in the end result.
Ah - ok. So when you said "here''s the crappy numbers" no one from PS had ever said that to you? Huge relief. It''s a bummer you were under that impression at all. I wish you''d posted the details at the time because I suspect your feelings would have been assuaged then, especially the way you describe your journey.Date: 2/18/2009 7:33:45 PM
Author: MikeRato1
john, i was never told i bought a crap diamond, nor did i say someone told me that, i just said that ''i feel'' that way. the main reason i feel that way is because i value garys opinion alot and thats the reason i was using his hca tool during my search, and when i say ''during'' i mean right there in front of the sales associate. i understand that alot of these forums are opinions and i greatly appreciate everyones (expert or not) so if there is a topic that i do not agree with i just do not take part
I understand why you want the side views. Picking a few tenths of a degree in avg angle is pretty tricky that way, especially on stones with variance, but I admire your courage. I'm going to post a slew of them for you in a minute.Date: 2/18/2009 7:13:28 PM
Author: Rockdiamond
John- thank for posting those!
The second 60/60 is exactly the type of stone I'm talking about.
Could you do a side view of that one?
Oof. That's a little utopian David. If you multiply even 1% more weight retention over a million carats of production you get hundreds of thousands of dollars profit that would otherwise wind up as diamond dust. Pushing that steep/deep area is not going to get better, it's going to get worse. Now that GIA's EX has been out for three years more big manufacturers are learning to game the system.Date: 2/18/2009 8:57:57 PM
Author: Rockdiamond
The other aspect to remember is that if there is a clear detriment to the appearance of the stone, a cutter would be foolish to follow that course on purpose.
Even though I feel that many buyers are safe with a GIA EX cut grade- I also make sure to remind people to get detailed photos, videos, and a money back guarantee.
If the stone is bad looking, the GIA cut grade isn't going to satisfy the buyer.
It would not be in line with their other categories David. Consider color, where most people cannot differentiate between D and E, yet that division (and premium) exist. It's even more pronounced in clarity and finish, where no human can differentiate between the top grades, yet the division (and premium) exist.Date: 2/18/2009 8:57:57 PM
Author: Rockdiamond
Part of this discussion is about what is called 'Steep Deep'- that is to say a diamond graded EX cut grade by GIA but not thought to be deserving of the 'Ex' cut grade. I'm paraphrasing what I have read here- steep deep what you need to watch out for in GIA EX cut grade.
What if, just for the sake of conversation we can say that not all people would see the phenomenon described as negative in the viewing. Say enough people actually picked what is described as 'steep Deep' to be included in GIA's EX cut grade.
I wanted to come back to this, as I think it's a key point of departure. After all, what is 'taste' versus 'quality?'Date: 2/18/2009 8:57:57 PM
Author: Rockdiamond
What if, just for the sake of conversation we can say that not all people would see the phenomenon described as negative in the viewing. Say enough people actually picked what is described as 'steep Deep' to be included in GIA's EX cut grade.
Thanks David. I appreciate it. I hope you don't mind a point of order... You routinely use "Ideal" to describe near-Tolkowsky stones but the term is somewhat outdated. As shown in this thread, diamonds of the 60/60 make can earn the "Ideal" grade (AGS0). When you say "smaller tables" that serves to a degree but those makes can also stray away from the near-Tolks you seem to be implying.Date: 2/19/2009 4:40:03 PM
Author: Rockdiamond
I'm not saying I don't love the smaller tabled stones- I do.
I love a slightly larger table, slightly shallower diamond more, but that's my personal taste.
Both are beautiful.
Let me again state very clearly that I admire and respect John, Paul, and others who are working with what they consider to be the best cut diamonds.
But it also bears repeating that many experienced diamond people feel that 'ideal cut' has more to do with shrewd marketing than actual beauty if we're comparing to other well cut diamonds. I'm not saying this is a fact, but it is an opinion held by some of the top people in the diamond business.
Now let me look at the diagrams John has so graciously provided.
John,Date: 2/19/2009 3:58:09 PM
Author: John Pollard
I understand why you want the side views. Picking a few tenths of a degree in avg angle is pretty tricky that way, especially on stones with variance, but I admire your courage. I''m going to post a slew of them for you in a minute.Date: 2/18/2009 7:13:28 PM
Author: Rockdiamond
John- thank for posting those!
The second 60/60 is exactly the type of stone I''m talking about.
Could you do a side view of that one?
Oof. That''s a little utopian David. If you multiply even 1% more weight retention over a million carats of production you get hundreds of thousands of dollars profit that would otherwise wind up as diamond dust. Pushing that steep/deep area is not going to get better, it''s going to get worse. Now that GIA''s EX has been out for three years more big manufacturers are learning to game the system.Date: 2/18/2009 8:57:57 PM
Author: Rockdiamond
The other aspect to remember is that if there is a clear detriment to the appearance of the stone, a cutter would be foolish to follow that course on purpose.
Even though I feel that many buyers are safe with a GIA EX cut grade- I also make sure to remind people to get detailed photos, videos, and a money back guarantee.
If the stone is bad looking, the GIA cut grade isn''t going to satisfy the buyer.
Dealer education continues to be a problem too. Forget that dealers can stock GIA EX which might be problematic away from their spotlights and not even know it. I did a random walk-by of a jeweler near our Dallas dealer yesterday and was shown a 60T-63.6%D round (GTL report from 2001). She told me it was an EX cut by today''s standards because P&S were both EX.
john, i was just being sarcastic when i said "crappy" but when i punch the numbers in the hca thats what it tells me, and i trust what gary does, i mean he created that to help customers like myself make a smart decision. now if i was not so unsure about buying such an expensive diamond over the internet that would have been the main tool i would have used, and i am willing to bet i would have got a perfect looking stone. but there was something about the experience about bring my future wife into a local store and us picking out one together, that was what she wanted and that was the diamond that she wanted, and there was no way i could say no to thatDate: 2/19/2009 3:51:05 PM
Author: John Pollard
Ah - ok. So when you said ''here''s the crappy numbers'' no one from PS had ever said that to you? Huge relief. It''s a bummer you were under that impression at all. I wish you''d posted the details at the time because I suspect your feelings would have been assuaged then, especially the way you describe your journey.Date: 2/18/2009 7:33:45 PM
Author: MikeRato1
john, i was never told i bought a crap diamond, nor did i say someone told me that, i just said that ''i feel'' that way. the main reason i feel that way is because i value garys opinion alot and thats the reason i was using his hca tool during my search, and when i say ''during'' i mean right there in front of the sales associate. i understand that alot of these forums are opinions and i greatly appreciate everyones (expert or not) so if there is a topic that i do not agree with i just do not take part
The HCA is a valuable tool but does overprotect in that 2.0-2.5 area without added information. I can''t think that''s a bad thing Mike, since there are diamonds in that zone which, because of imprecision, variations, digging, etc., are not in the class yours is in. I hope this thread has shed some light.
Date: 2/19/2009 2:22:40 PM
Author: Rockdiamond
I'd say most people spending the kind of money we're talking about here would have looked at diamonds.
Hopefully DF can give usmore details.
My point is that what you are calling 'leakage' which sounds like a negative connotation, others might see as contrast, and actually find attractive.
Courage or stupidity....sometimes it''s a fine line John.....hehehDate: 2/19/2009 4:02:20 PM
Author: John Pollard
David, here are nine profile views of diamonds at or near 60-60. All of them are GIA EX. They range from brilliancy properly returned to the eye that would earn AGS0 to severe enough under-table & girdle leakage to be penalized to AGS6 when ray-traced. Based on these views and the fact that all are GIA EX, which do you suppose you could recommend?
Re: So the universal idea of a BRILLIANT cut is that it returns light to the viewer''s eye, resulting in brilliance.
It is just one task for Diamond Cut. It is important task, but there are other important tasks for diamond Cut:
"As bad as it's made out to be" may be different to you and me David. When a guy drops to his knee and opens the box I doubt a girl will say "no" because it has a 41.8 pavilion angle - any more than she'd complain about the lab where it was graded. How about this question: Do you see everyone with EGL-Israel graded F-VS1s inevitably discovering that they may be closer to H-SI1? Are people on a mission to assess the color and clarity decisions they made post-proposal? Or do you imagine they trusted their jeweler to deliver the best quality, have no idea and never will about the soft color and clarity they received?Date: 2/19/2009 5:06:16 PM
Author: Rockdiamond
If a 'Steep Deep' is going to show a lot of ill affects once the buyer walks out of the store, it's going to to get returned. That's going to cause problems for the store, the cutter- all the way down the line.
If a GIA EX cut graded 'Steep Deep' is as bad as it's made out to be, wouldn't those stones sit in stock- or come back as returns repeatedly?
Date: 2/19/2009 5:35:22 PM
Author: Serg
Pro: leakage could be positive and give Good contrast, specially for Fire. But I saw good such examples only for fancy cuts
Con: “Dead ring” for RBC is not good even for contrast. Such ring psychologically destroy classical RBC pattern but do not give any compensation in Fire,…
Pro and Con: Diamonds between H&A AGS0 and “Dead ring” are not so bad like you can imagine from Cyclops point of view( IS, FS, ASET).
But this is applicable more to Near-Tolk stones David. The thread is about 60/60.Date: 2/19/2009 5:50:26 PM
Author: Rockdiamond
As Serg pointed out, what some might see as a ''ring of death'' in an ASET or IS might look quite different viewed real life with two eyes.
i didn''t make any comments about his diamonds. i ask him...why buy diamonds in HK when you can buy them cheaper here in the U.S. ?Date: 2/19/2009 1:46:57 PM
Author: Rockdiamond
Apparently your friend, along with many other observers, chose a diamond that might be knocked here as badly cut.
Is your friend wrong?
Would telling your friend he got ripped off, and bought a badly cut diamond be a good thing to do?
Details for each in red, above.Date: 2/19/2009 5:38:51 PM
Author: Rockdiamond
Courage or stupidity....sometimes it''s a fine line John.....hehehDate: 2/19/2009 4:02:20 PM
Author: John Pollard
David, here are nine profile views of diamonds at or near 60-60. All of them are GIA EX. They range from brilliancy properly returned to the eye that would earn AGS0 to severe enough under-table & girdle leakage to be penalized to AGS6 when ray-traced. Based on these views and the fact that all are GIA EX, which do you suppose you could recommend?
As you''ve mentioned trying to assess a diamond based only in a CG side view is difficult at best....but here goes...
#1 looks to have a thick girdle, and heavy crown. [ AGS0, 60 60 40.8 34.0 stk 6.49mm 1ct ]
#2 also looks thick in the girdle although the crown and pavilion angles look nice. [ AGS1, 60 60 41.2 31.5 stk 6.49mm 1ct ]
#3 seems thin at the girdle [ AGS5, 60 60.2 41.8 33.5 thin 6.54mm 1ct ]
#4- not bad [ AGS4, 60 60.1 41.4 34.5 med 6.53mm 1ct ]
#5 seems to have heavy crown [ AGS4, 60 60.4 41.4 35.0 med 6.53mm 1ct ]
#6 girdle looks a little heavy, but not bad otherwise [ AGS0, 60 60 41.0 33.5 stk 6.49mm 1ct ]
#7- looks about the best of the bunch [ AGS5, 62 60 41.6 33.5 med 6.54mm 1.01ct ]
#8 - seems to have steep crown angles [ AGS6, 62 59.9 41.2 35.0 med 6.54mm 1.02ct]
#9- also not bad, but the girdle seems a bit thin [ AGS5, 59 60.4 41.8 33.5 thin 6.54mm 1ct ]
Thanks. You actually bring up a good point about 60/60. On first blush I like the Winston reference you have brought - it implies quality - but I am sure there are other cutters of 60/60 with top performance.Date: 2/19/2009 5:38:51 PM
Author: Rockdiamond
Also a great point about the usage of the word ''ideal''.
The term has been so horribly abused so as to be almost meaningless at this point.
I suppose I use it for lack of a better word- but ''Near Tolk'' sounds reasonable!
It was in this case study David. But that was not a steep/deep of 60/60 make, it was 57T 62.9D (and while not a 60/60 it is GIA EX of dubious quality).Date: 2/19/2009 6:42:14 PM
Author: Rockdiamond
In terms of Steep Deep and GIA''s cut grade......there was a series of photos I''ve seen here on PS showing an actual Steep Deep diamond in different views....does anyone know where that is so we can post the photos here?
Of course Purr. That virtual diamond is all yours!Date: 2/19/2009 7:09:09 PM
Author: purrfectpear
I picked #6 as my favorite. Is there a door prize involved?![]()
With that reinforced, diamonds I've seen IRL with ASET appearances like that bottom row will be hard sells next to those with more brilliance when compared away from the spotlights.Date: 2/19/2009 5:32:58 PM
Author: purrfectpear
Maybe we just need to define the word 'bad' and 'poor'.
It sort of sounds that bad and poor must be fairly egregiously awful when you use it David (aka 'I don't think there are bad cutters, or I have yet to see even one GIA EX that would be considered poorly cut.')
I think that John and some of the rest of us are saying 'less than optimal' rather than egregiously bad or poor.
I don't think there are bad cutters as much as there are cutters who are willing to sacrifice optimal performance to eek their stones in 'just under the GIA wire' so to speak. They'll sacrifice performance for weight. That doesn't make them bad guys (it sounds like on that we agree?) it makes them smart cookies (but at the possible expense of the best diamond). Ditto for GIA EX grades. They aren't poorly cut to you, but we've seen some that are definitely not as well cut as expected. Maybe we don't agree on the definition of poor? Poor doesn't have to be the worst.