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Is 60/60 a bad proportion for a round diamond- can we trust a GIA "EX" cut grade?

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Rockdiamond

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Hi Everyone!
There''s been a lot of debate about what constitutes a well cut diamond.
I have, for years, been a proponent of what is known as a 60/60- that means 60% depth ,and 60% table. This is not because I''m trying to sell them.
I spoke out then, as well as now as a matter of conscience.
Sure, a lot of folks agree with Garry, and his ideas.
BUT, there are also many, extremely well advised diamond people, that disagree. Speaking as a diamond professional, who''s in the second camp would seem to allow a more rounded conversation. Since not all diamond people agree with Garry- or Ideal cuts in general, it stands to reason that a percentage of consumers will feel that same way. I represent them.

In return for standing up for what I believe, I get called names. People try to brand me as someone who loves badly cut diamonds.....
I LOVE WELL CUT DIAMONDS!

Before 2006, there was no GIA "cut grade"- meaning that the only game in town was AGSL, and they clearly prefer smaller tabled diamonds- so called "Ideal Cut" stones.

At that time, Garry Holliway posted a page that still remains here on PS.
Here''s the page
I feel that the page written by Garry is completely misleading.
He shows two examples of incredibly distorted diamonds that happen to have a 60% table, and a 60% depth.
It''s crucial to remember that these are not actual diamonds- rather a representation of what you might get if your cutter was totally whacked out on crack ( all due respect to the crackheads out there)
Seriously, it would not take an "expert" to look at either of the examples posted to realize how ugly they are.
Other than old mine stones which tend to have a heavy crown- some ways bearing a very slight resemblance to the "stone" on the top in Garry''s page, I''ve never seen anything in a modern round diamond cut like what Garry describes in real life- and I have seen a lot of badly cut diamonds.


It also seems that every time I bring up 60/60, there''s a chorus of dissenters.
One poster likes to characterize me as "old thinking'' simply because I love a slightly spreadier diamond.


If we use GIA and AGS top cut grades for round diamonds, it''s clear they do NOT feel 60/60 is in any way "old thinking" as these proportions are included in both GIA, as well as AGSL''s top cut grades. GIA''s cut grade is based largely on extensive correlation of human observation. Given the choice, many consumers and people who want a really well cut diamond will chose a properly proportioned , and well cut 60/60 over a 57/62
In fact, many of the best cutters of diamonds still feel that 60/60 is the right number.
Of course the marketing of "Ideal" cut diamonds far outstrips the marketing for 60/60 diamonds- actually no one is advertising 60/60 as a cut. Why? Well have a look at the price differential charged for H&A diamonds.
There''s your incentive to push one over the other.


GIA cut grades: Personally I believe that if a person buys a round diamond graded "EX" cut grade by GIA, it will be a well cut diamond. This is another opinion that finds dissent here on PS.
Clearly there are preferences within the world of "Well cut Diamonds"
As I wrote above, some people like a smaller table- thought to give more fire, and others prefer a slightly larger table- thought to give more overall brilliance.
But no matter what we call it- fire, brilliance, sparkle, there is a matter of personal taste involved.

My position is that if GIA calls it "EX" cut grade, you''re not going to find many experts outside PS calling it a badly cut diamond.

John posted a simulated diamond of 60/60 that supposedly would get an EX cut grade, and somehow manages to be really badly cut.
John, if you could re-post that, and give us some side views, it could really forward this conversation.
 

MikeRato1

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i agree, but not 100%, when we were searching for rocks, we looked through many gia, ex, ex,ex and did see a few that didnt tickle our fancy
the one the "spoke to us" ended up being a gia steep/deep, but it was so much brighter and fiery than any other we could see
we ended up purchasing it but always in the back of my mind i had doubts if i got a great diamond, until i read this article, now i dont think twice...

http://www.goodoldgold.com/4Cs/NewCutGrading/GIAExAGSIdeal/
 

strmrdr

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David,
Attacking Garry and John is not proving your point.
I opened another thread for reasonable discussion to hash it out.
If this is going to be your approach it has no place here.
 

Rockdiamond

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Mike, if I''m not mistaken, you are saying that after personally viewing diamonds, you chose one that would be knocked here, as a "Steep Deep".
Meaning that your personal experience suggests that what''s called a "Steep Deep" is actually quite attractive.

BTW_ I''m not suggesting that everyone will love every diamond GIA grades "EX" cut grade- rather that all diamonds getting this label can be considered "Well cut"
 

Rockdiamond

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Karl- I''m disagreeing, not attacking.
There is a page Garry created on 60/60, which he brought up to me.
I would hope that we can discuss the page, and the concept.
 

strmrdr

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Date: 2/18/2009 3:16:57 PM
Author: Rockdiamond
Karl- I''m disagreeing, not attacking.

There is a page Garry created on 60/60, which he brought up to me.

I would hope that we can discuss the page, and the concept.
saying blah blah blah is bad ok and making demands of others while presenting no evidence is attacking.
prove your case don''t attack others.
 

MikeRato1

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Date: 2/18/2009 3:15:07 PM
Author: Rockdiamond
Mike, if I''m not mistaken, you are saying that after personally viewing diamonds, you chose one that would be knocked here, as a ''Steep Deep''.
Meaning that your personal experience suggests that what''s called a ''Steep Deep'' is actually quite attractive.

BTW_ I''m not suggesting that everyone will love every diamond GIA grades ''EX'' cut grade- rather that all diamonds getting this label can be considered ''Well cut''
yes but we also seen some steep/deeps that didnt appeal to us, when we were searching i had the internet pulled up on my phone and was using garys hca results cause i wanted something "mind clean" (we were using our eyes and the hca to weed out diamonds) the one we picked scored poorly. trust me i lost alot of sleep over this cause i am one cheap a$$ and this was a huge purchase for me
 

Rockdiamond

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Karl- I''m not making any demands.
John and I have had many respectful discussions here on PS- many times we''ve respectfully disagreed.
I mean no insult to anyone- and John in particular, has gone out of his way to discuss these topics in a really nice way.
There was a simulation he posted the other day which is relevant to the conversation.
If he wouldn''t mind posting it, I believe it would be relevant the this discussion. Sorry if this sounded like a demand, that was not my intention.
Without question things between Garry and I have gotten heated at times- but I am here respectfully to discuss our differences of opinion.

It seems that the very first post, Mikerato1 seems to put some credence in what I am suggesting. He bought what was termed "Steep Deep" based on the fact he liked it better after looking.
It is not my position that you, John or Garry- or anyone who feels one way- is "wrong"- only that there are other, valid ways of looking at this.
 

Rockdiamond

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Mike, if given my way, I would much rather you did not loose any sleep over this.
I''m quite sure that just about any knowledgable diamond cutter or dealer would call your stone extremely well cut.
 

MikeRato1

Shiny_Rock
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true i did like a steep/deep better than others, but i am no expert by any means, the only knowledge i have is from what i have read here on pricescope. also i should mention that the jeweler i purchased from (pretty high end) only sends their stones to gia (not ags) and only carries gia ex, ex, ex, so the only other diamonds i was comparing to were other gia excellents, they had a ton in stock but maybe some experts would say none of the gia excellents they had in stock were great stones?
 

Upgradable

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We really need a "sitting back and eating popcorn" emoticon!
 

strmrdr

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Date: 2/18/2009 3:36:55 PM
Author: MikeRato1
true i did like a steep/deep better than others, but i am no expert by any means, the only knowledge i have is from what i have read here on pricescope. also i should mention that the jeweler i purchased from (pretty high end) only sends their stones to gia (not ags) and only carries gia ex, ex, ex, so the only other diamonds i was comparing to were other gia excellents, they had a ton in stock but maybe some experts would say none of the gia excellents they had in stock were great stones?
I wont say that without seeing them or at least the reports.
I am curious what are the numbers on your diamond?
Some combos can go both ways depending on the minors even in the AGS system.
 

strmrdr

Super_Ideal_Rock
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David a good start would be you posting pictures and numbers for what you consider a good 60/60.
Then we can compare it to what all the different systems say.
As I have shown in the past a 60/60 can get hca less than 2 and AGS0
 

MikeRato1

Shiny_Rock
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karl i think mine scored about a 25 lol. i dont think this is a stone that most would consider nice
heres the crappy numbers though...
depth 62%
table 58%
crown angle 35.5
crown height 15.0%
pavilion angle 41.0 do you think that is the main problem?
pavilion depth 43.0%
star length 55%
lower half 75%
girdle- thin to slightly thick
faceted 3.9%

hope i am not banned from this site for my purchase!
 

Rockdiamond

Ideal_Rock
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Karl, as a trades person on PS, posting photos is not allowed.

Clearly both AGS and GIA include 60/60 in the top cut grade.


Mike- if you want to feel that you bought a crappy cut, of course that''s your right. But part of the point I''m making here is that making someone feel that they got a bad diamond simply because the experts on PS feel it''s no good seems to be unfair to the person asking.
A lot of the minutia is really just that- especially in a GIA "EX" cut grade.
 

MikeRato1

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Date: 2/18/2009 3:53:49 PM
Author: Rockdiamond
Karl, as a trades person on PS, posting photos is not allowed.

Clearly both AGS and GIA include 60/60 in the top cut grade.


Mike- if you want to feel that you bought a crappy cut, of course that''s your right. But part of the point I''m making here is that making someone feel that they got a bad diamond simply because the experts on PS feel it''s no good seems to be unfair to the person asking.
A lot of the minutia is really just that- especially in a GIA ''EX'' cut grade.
no personally i do not feel that i have a poor diamond, i mean its what we look at everyday not someone else. and everyone who has seen the diamond thinks it is stunning also, but i will admit that i was pretty upset after making the final decision (knowing that my custom setting was not returnable)
but i do trust everyone from good old gold and reading their articles made me feel alot better
 

Judah Gutwein

Shiny_Rock
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Guys,

Just as an aside, I''d like to share my funny introduction to 60/60''s.

I had just joined my Dad in the business at the time that I started hearing the term ''60/60'' bandied about on 47 st. here in the N.Y.C. Diamond District.

Here I am, a young guy with no experience, listening to the pros. talk about how it''s (the diamond) ''60/60''.....I honestly thought they were indicating a percentage probability of the diamond being brilliant and I couldn''t for the life of me figure out why they didn''t use the appropriate ''50/50'' percent probability!


To quote A-ROD in his mea culpa interview yesterday, I was ''young and stupid''!
 

Dancing Fire

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Date: 2/18/2009 2:57:19 PM
Author:Rockdiamond

My position is that if GIA calls it ''EX'' cut grade, you''re not going to find many experts outside PS calling it a badly cut diamond.
you know why there are so many 41.4 pav x 35.5 crown combo out there? because the cutters are trying to retain weight and still barely make it into GIA''s excellent cut box.
 

MikeRato1

Shiny_Rock
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Date: 2/18/2009 3:53:49 PM
Author: Rockdiamond
Karl, as a trades person on PS, posting photos is not allowed.

Clearly both AGS and GIA include 60/60 in the top cut grade.


Mike- if you want to feel that you bought a crappy cut, of course that''s your right. But part of the point I''m making here is that making someone feel that they got a bad diamond simply because the experts on PS feel it''s no good seems to be unfair to the person asking.
A lot of the minutia is really just that- especially in a GIA ''EX'' cut grade.
i do feel that on this website i bought a crappy diamond, but when i venture off of this computer monitor my mind changes, that is why i am not an expert
 

Rockdiamond

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HI Judah!!

I''m quite sure that with you or your dad, the percentages are 100-0
100% you''re going to take case of your client,. and 0% chance they''ll get a bad stone!
Jon at GOG is another proven vendor, I''m glad you got a great stone Mike!!


DF- I deal with diamond cutters every day.
Maybe I''m just lucky, but the ones I know are honest and hardworking.
It''s an incredibly tough business and a few bad decisions can put a cutter out of business.
Cutting badly cut stones will also threaten a cutter''s business.
It''s a shame you feel that there''s cutters purposefully trying to cut a bad stone...maybe there are isolated cases, but on a broader scale, I don''t believe the facts bear you out on this.

As I''ve stated, there''s a lot of extremely knowledgeable diamond people that agree with GIA''s cut grade.
 

Rockdiamond

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Mike, you walked into a store, and put down many thousands of your hard earned dollars.
Expert? I don't know that that's important- but as a buyer, you are THE BOSS.
If you picked a GIA EX cut grade, you got a well cut diamond- and whoever sold it to you was not trying to sell you a badly cut stone- even if it was termed that by some of the people here.
It seems that every time this kind of conversation pops up there both people that agree with one side, and there are are people with similar sentiments to Mike as well- it's an interesting topic for sure.
 

Stone-cold11

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Date: 2/18/2009 2:57:19 PM
Author:Rockdiamond

At that time, Garry Holliway posted a page that still remains here on PS.

Here's the page

I feel that the page written by Garry is completely misleading.

He shows two examples of incredibly distorted diamonds that happen to have a 60% table, and a 60% depth.
David, I don't think that article is misleading. Garry never says 60/60 is all bad. Just do not assume 60/60 will automatically be good. The two examples he shows is just examples of how badly it can be cut and still be considered a 60/60, so what is wrong with that? He also demonstrated a set of angles that on a 60/60 proportion can be good.



So I didn't think he did anything wrong here.
 

Rockdiamond

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It is not my intention to prove anyone "wrong". I agree that if you look at the part of the page you posted, I suppose it could show simulations of nice looking 60/60s. I''m not really sure as I prefer to look at photos of actual diamonds, but if that part of the page was meant to depict nicer looking 60/60''s that''s great.
I don''t know how to post a photo- but if someone could post the photo of the two diamonds at the top of the page we can see the other side of what Garry is talking about.
To me, the page seems only to have negative things to say about diamonds of 60/60.
Which is all prefectly fantastic if that''s Garry''s opinion.
But setting out to prove that 60/60 is inhenrently bad seems different than saying one does not like it as a matter of taste.
 

JulieN

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No one is saying that 60/60 is bad, just like no one says 61/56 is good.
 

Stone-cold11

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Date: 2/18/2009 5:26:24 PM
Author: Rockdiamond
It is not my intention to prove anyone ''wrong''. I agree that if you look at the part of the page you posted, I suppose it could show simulations of nice looking 60/60s. I''m not really sure as I prefer to look at photos of actual diamonds, but if that part of the page was meant to depict nicer looking 60/60''s that''s great.

I don''t know how to post a photo- but if someone could post the photo of the two diamonds at the top of the page we can see the other side of what Garry is talking about.

To me, the page seems only to have negative things to say about diamonds of 60/60.

Which is all prefectly fantastic if that''s Garry''s opinion.

But setting out to prove that 60/60 is inhenrently bad seems different than saying one does not like it as a matter of taste.
Sorry, I still don''t see what you are getting at. The 2 extreme proportion are also simulations. They are from the same program that generate the images of the range of angles that are shows 60/60 can have some beautiful cuts.

60/60 extreme proportions


60/60 beautiful cuts
 

Rockdiamond

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Julie, all due respect, but I have been critisized for saying that a 60/60 stone can be just as well cut as a smaller tabled "Ideal" cut.
The entire 60/60 page seems designed to convince people 60/60 is not good- and that cutters used the formula "because it was easy to remember".
It all seems to be a knock against 60/60.
The two simulated diamonds on the top add to this impression.

IN addtion, am also saying that a GIA "EX" cut grade is going to be a well cut diamond- another point that is not agreed upon here..
 

Rockdiamond

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Thank you Stone-Cold11

Can anyone make the case that either of the two simulated diamonds, if a cutter was foolish enough to waste rough in such a manner - would achieve ''EX" cut grade from GIA?
Has anyone ever seen a modern round brilliant cut like either of those simulations? I have not.

Furthermore, wouldn''t any person even vaguely familiar with a diamond immediately recognize that neither of those simulations looks like a modern cut diamond- even if they did not know the measurements?

If the point of the page was that distorted diamonds are bad, why use 60/60 as an example?
If we took any proportions and distorted them like that it would be ugly.
 

purrfectpear

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David, why are you really here?

Pricescope is all about the CUT. Not about whether someone found a "diamond in the rough" aka the great sparkler "in spite of" the odds.

Sure there are some dandy 60/60 diamonds. It is still unlikely that anyone on PS will ever go out of their way to recommend that a consumer start with a 60/60 because the odds of an ideal performing diamond just aren''t there. It''s about the ODDS of getting the best performance, not the CHANCE of getting the best performance.

You know this is what PS is about and yet you continue to spout off about how you "love a well cut diamond" and insist that 1. You sell them, 2. You don''t need reports or scans to know them, and 3. Your version of well cut is just as valid as experts on PS.

Well, I''m just not buying it. Your claim that you just want to offer a different viewpoint is pretty transparent. Why bother if not to hope to sell some of those "picked as well cut by David" diamonds? If it''s just about PS consumers, they were doing just dandy without your opinion for the last several years while you were banned IMO.

When someone comes on PS and says "I want an average diamond, that looks sparkly to David", then you can feel free to pass your opinion as expert. In the mean time all you are doing is obsfucating the issue of best performance. Don''t you have your own forum in which to proselytize the glories of the 60/60 and other less than ideal cuts?
 

Stone-cold11

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Date: 2/18/2009 5:46:50 PM
Author: Rockdiamond
Can anyone make the case that either of the two simulated diamonds, if a cutter was foolish enough to waste rough in such a manner - would achieve 'EX' cut grade from GIA?

Has anyone ever seen a modern round brilliant cut like either of those simulations? I have not.
I actually think that the deep pavilion example, 45degree cut, can actually achieved the most polish weight from the rough. Looks to me like an easy cut from a diamond rough, cleaving the rough in half and polishing off minimum weight to achieve that proportion. Not a GIA Ex to be sure.

Furthermore, wouldn't any person even vaguely familiar with a diamond immediately recognize that neither of those simulations looks like a modern cut diamond- even if they did not know the measurements?

If the point of the page was that distorted diamonds are bad, why use 60/60 as an example?

If we took any proportions and distorted them like that it would be ugly.
Garry's position was to debunk the fact that 60/60 cut proportion is going to be automatically good. And that is what he showed in the simulations. His position is not that all 60/60 proportion are automatically bad.
 
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