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Matata said:
I'm enough of a cynic to say that McCabe's firing is also beneficial to Mueller's investigation. Anything tainting the integrity of the FBI will also taint Mueller's work. It is painful, though, to see McCabe fired for "lack of candor" by a man (Sessions) who exercised the same during Senate investigations and outright lied on his security clearance form. And the cherry on top of this debacle is that both men report to someone as dishonest as drumpf. If one lie is too many for the integrity of the FBI why is it ok, even celebrated, when the leader of the country lies with impunity. Fire drumpf too.
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It is painful to watch people who are supposed to have the utmost integrity and the confidence of the American people be found wanting in that regard. I look at things differently because I expect politicians to lie and they often prove me right. I have no illusions of grandeur or altruism when looking at elected officials. However, I have every expectation that law enforcement not abuse the power they are given and they act with the utmost integrity. Maybe I am too harsh or have unfair expectations but that is just how it is for me.
 
redwood66 said:
If the IG report provided to the OPR found that McCabe was guilty of "lack of candor" IOW lying, then he should be fired. The OPR recommended he be fired, just like the other FBI employees that have been fired in recent years for the same thing. Being at the top of the food chain should not provide cover. I was ok with the firing of Flynn if he lied. Does it happen to be politically beneficial for Sessions, sure but that doesn't make it incorrect to do it.
https://www.cnn.com/2018/03/15/opinions/firing-mccabe-fbi-opinion-campbell/index.html
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If I may clarify, "lack of candor" is not the same in this context as "falsification" (affirmative misrepresentation with the intent to deceive, which is what I think most people think of as lying)..

Here's a very thought-full, well considered piece -- What We Know, and Don't Know, About the Firing of Andrew McCabe -- that was posted earlier today on Lawfare. Don't be put off by the name of the site; this article isn't full of legal mumbo-jumbo!
https://lawfareblog.com/what-we-know-and-dont-know-about-firing-andrew-mccabe
 
MollyMalone said:
If I may clarify, "lack of candor" is not the same in this context as "falsification" (affirmative misrepresentation with the intent to deceive, which is what I think most people think of as lying)..

Here's a very thought-full, well considered piece -- What We Know, and Don't Know, About the Firing of Andrew McCabe -- that was posted earlier today on Lawfare. Don't be put off by the name of the site; this article isn't full of legal mumbo-jumbo!
https://lawfareblog.com/what-we-know-and-dont-know-about-firing-andrew-mccabe
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Thanks for the link. It is rational and well thought out as you said. We should all be waiting for the reports.
 
I am hearing that McCabe does not lose his retirement, he will be able to collect at 57 rather than collecting early at 50. This is due to how the FBI retirement is set up which is different than other fed employees.
 
redwood66 said:
but I will take the opinion of a former FBI supervisor on the charge of "lack of candor" over an opinion of a writer for the New Yorker.
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That is your prejudice. We all have our prejudices. Inspectors General are not appointed for life like Supreme Court justices. They are subject to political pressure.
 
AGBF said:
That is your prejudice. We all have our prejudices. Inspectors General are not appointed for life like Supreme Court justices. They are subject to political pressure.
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We do all have it, even you. ;)2
 
His firing was recommended by the FBI office that handles discipline, not Sessions.
 
Dancing Fire said:
His firing was recommended by the FBI office that handles discipline, not Sessions.
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Yeah, we know that. That's why we were discussing Inspectors General and how they are appointed, Dancing Fire. Those Inspectors General are subject to political pressure. But remember that Sessions, who was supposedly recused from all things Russian, made the final call on the firing. And McCabe had just finished meeting with Mueller and going over his contemporaneous notes on meetings with Trump right before he was fired. What a coincidence!!! "Saturday Night Live" got it right. Trump fired McCabe.

SNL...
 
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Sure, IF he lied about anything, IF it weren't a witch hunt, IF the president did not ask him WHO he voted for Red, if we are gonna fire liars, let's start with Trump. Sessions is a KNOWN liar. We can't hold those under the president to a higher standard than then we hold him/her. Berating an employee because his/her spouse is the opposition party is grounds for impeachment (amongst other despicable things Trump has done). This whole Trump show has to go. I am eagerly awaiting what Mueller finds, as all can see, Trump and company has done their best to throw shade on everything Mueller has been doing. Politics? yes maybe, but having lived thru one shit show on President Clinton, I'm looking forward to Trump's comeuppance. We don't know the whole story till we do, all we can do is speculate. We don't know if partisan politics played a part in this whole show.

redwood66 said:
If the IG report provided to the OPR found that McCabe was guilty of "lack of candor" IOW lying, then he should be fired. The OPR recommended he be fired, just like the other FBI employees that have been fired in recent years for the same thing. Being at the top of the food chain should not provide cover. I was ok with the firing of Flynn if he lied. Does it happen to be politically beneficial for Sessions, sure but that doesn't make it incorrect to do it.

https://www.cnn.com/2018/03/15/opinions/firing-mccabe-fbi-opinion-campbell/index.html
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Tekate said:
Sure, IF he lied about anything, IF it weren't a witch hunt, IF the president did not ask him WHO he voted for Red, if we are gonna fire liars, let's start with Trump. Sessions is a KNOWN liar. We can't hold those under the president to a higher standard than then we hold him/her. Berating an employee because his/her spouse is the opposition party is grounds for impeachment (amongst other despicable things Trump has done). This whole Trump show has to go. I am eagerly awaiting what Mueller finds, as all can see, Trump and company has done their best to throw shade on everything Mueller has been doing. Politics? yes maybe, but having lived thru one shit show on President Clinton, I'm looking forward to Trump's comeuppance. We don't know the whole story till we do, all we can do is speculate. We don't know if partisan politics played a part in this whole show.
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If Mueller finds enough the process will work and you will have the outcome you wish for. I am willing to accept whatever happens. I hope you are too. Like you said we don't know the whole story til we do. My view on law enforcement and politicians was made up thread and I do hold law enforcement to a very high standard. That's just the way it is. They hold tremendous power over all of us, therefore they need to be forthright in their actions at all times.
 
redwood66 said:
If Mueller finds enough the process will work and you will have the outcome you wish for. I am willing to accept whatever happens. I hope you are too. Like you said we don't know the whole story til we do. My view on law enforcement and politicians was made up thread and I do hold law enforcement to a very high standard. That's just the way it is. They hold tremendous power over all of us, therefore they need to be forthright in their actions at all times.
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The Attorney General has not been held to a high standard. He lied to Congress about meeting with "the Russians" with impunity. I have felt great sympathy for him when he was publicly abused by President Trump which his status as the AG and as a former Senator, not to mention his simply being a human being, should not have countenanced. Nonetheless, it is hypocrisy to allow AG Sessions to fire Director McCabe after he committed perjury not once, but several times. He is one law enforcement officer who has most certainly not been held to "a very high standard".
 
AGBF said:
The Attorney General has not been held to a high standard. He lied to Congress about meeting with "the Russians" with impunity. I have felt great sympathy for him when he was publicly abused by President Trump which his status as the AG and as a former Senator, not to mention his simply being a human being, should not have countenanced. Nonetheless, it is hypocrisy to allow AG Sessions to fire Director McCabe after he committed perjury not once, but several times. He is one law enforcement officer who has most certainly not been held to "a very high standard".
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I held the same opinion of Holder that you have of Sessions and he was held in contempt of Congress. Hypocrisy abounds in politics.
 
Hi,

The process for the firing of the AG would sit with Trump. And I suspect that if Trump did that, there would be an big outcry against it. The process for the Andy McCabe firing is the IG and a PRO of the FBI.
I would hold back on being irate because the IG was appointed by Obama, and it is very unusual for the Professional Review from the FBI itself to recommend firing of one of its own. In fact IMO, MSNBC has turned into a Fox News Type and near hysteria over the firing. Really bad news reporting.
I'm going wait for the report. If he lied, he should go. look at all the guilty pleas we have in the Mueller probe just for lying.
Annette
 
@redwood66 absolutely will accept the final report.
 
redwood66 said:
It is painful to watch people who are supposed to have the utmost integrity and the confidence of the American people be found wanting in that regard. I look at things differently because I expect politicians to lie and they often prove me right. I have no illusions of grandeur or altruism when looking at elected officials. However, I have every expectation that law enforcement not abuse the power they are given and they act with the utmost integrity. Maybe I am too harsh or have unfair expectations but that is just how it is for me.
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If you expect nothing better, you'll never get anything better. This country needs to raise its expectations and take steps to ensure that elected officials have and maintain integrity and if they don't, they should be immediately replaced. So I guess our entire system of governance and voting needs to change too.

Your double standard when it comes to elected officials vs law enforcement is puzzling.
Elected officials are lawmakers who you expect to lie;
Therefore, any law that a liar enacts is as questionable in its integrity/fairness as those making it;
That means law enforcers (FBI/police/military et al) are charged with upholding the questionable policies of their lying elected officials who are also their bosses;
Therefore, expecting law enforcers to act with utmost integrity when upholding the questionable policies of their lying bosses seems a bit of a stretch.
 
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Kenneth White tweet.png
The fundamental and horrific problem is, has been (and will be for the foreseeable future) is that Trump is an emotionally needy child, who acts and says whatever feels good to him in the moment, who craves adulation, who perceives disagreement as an intolerable personal rebuke -- and who basically has never been subjected to meaningful scrutiny & held accountable (in a way that might matter to his stunted self) for his conduct in his adult life.
 
smitcompton said:
Hi,

The process for the firing of the AG would sit with Trump. And I suspect that if Trump did that, there would be an big outcry against it. The process for the Andy McCabe firing is the IG and a PRO of the FBI.
I would hold back on being irate because the IG was appointed by Obama, and it is very unusual for the Professional Review from the FBI itself to recommend firing of one of its own.
Annette
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The FBI fired McCabe.
 
Matata said:
If you expect nothing better, you'll never get anything better. This country needs to raise its expectations and take steps to ensure that elected officials have and maintain integrity and if they don't, they should be immediately replaced. So I guess our entire system of governance and voting needs to change too.

Your double standard when it comes to elected officials vs law enforcement is puzzling.
Elected officials are lawmakers who you expect to lie;
Therefore, any law that a liar enacts is as questionable in its integrity/fairness as those making it;
That means law enforcers (FBI/police/military et al) are charged with upholding the questionable policies of their lying elected officials who are also their bosses;
Therefore, expecting law enforcers to act with utmost integrity when upholding the questionable policies of their lying bosses seems a bit of a stretch.
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It's not a stretch nor a double standard. I can't stand most politicians and don't set much store in what they do. I also don't look to politicians to save us from anything because they are a pretty disappointing lot. If we can get by without them effing up things too bad then I am happy. Now our opinions on what "effing things up" might be will vary I'm sure.
 
Below is an excerpt from an article in "The Washington Post. It does not argue that Andrew McCabe is innocent, but that even if he is not, that justice demands of the author that he stand with him.

"The McCabe case illustrates the fundamental asymmetry between Trump and his critics. For anti-Trump commentators and activists who embrace the rule of law as the central tenet of their resistance to the president, McCabe is problematic. According to reports of the findings of well-regarded Justice Department Inspector General Michael E. Horowitz, McCabe wrongfully leaked details of the investigation of Hillary Clinton, then was not fully candid with investigators about it. If true, this is not the sort of conduct that 'rule of law' advocates are comfortable defending.

Which brings us to Trump’s two advantages over his opponents. First, until the details of McCabe’s case are public, many Trump critics have been restrained in their reaction to McCabe’s firing. They want to reserve judgment until the facts are in; they want to assess McCabe’s actual culpability before taking up his case.

But Trump is not similarly constrained in smearing McCabe and regaling in his ouster. Trump called McCabe’s firing — executed by an attorney general under pressure to appease his boss — 'a great day' and a reflection of the 'lies and corruption going on at the highest levels of the FBI.' This was at least his sixth tweet about McCabe in recent months, leaving no doubt about Trump’s grudge against the career FBI agent whom Trump has maligned with a long list of false accusations.


McCabe has professed his innocence, and the Justice Department inspector general has neither confirmed nor denied public reports of his findings. Weeks or months from now we may find, as McCabe claims, that he did nothing wrong. But by then the swirl of Trumpism will have moved on. By the time the fact-based opposition has what it needs to defend McCabe, the next of Trump’s victims will be 'in the barrel,' to use Roger Stone’s famous phrase.

And what if McCabe did do something wrong in authorizing FBI officials to talk to a reporter, or while answering questions from investigators looking into the matter? Here is Trump’s second advantage: the fact that almost every person who stands up to Trump will, themselves, be imperfect, be vulnerable to investigation, have made mistakes — that is to say, human.

As Steven Levitsky and Daniel Ziblatt point out in their book, 'How Democracies Die,' modern authoritarian leaders do not consolidate power by coming after wholly innocent people: They exploit the fact that almost every person with a long public career — those who could be a check on the leader’s power — has done something wrong, or something that can be cast as wrong, if scrutinized in a certain way. Former FBI director James B. Comey — fired for refusing to bend to Trump’s will — made substantial and hugely consequential mistakes in handling the 2016 investigation of Hillary Clinton. Rex Tillerson — fired just hours after being the first senior U.S. official to join Britain in sharply criticizing Russia — probably was the worst secretary of state in modern history. The list goes on.

They, and others, may well have deserved to face some consequence, perhaps even to have their government service ended. But, in the era of Trump, that is not the right question.

In these instances, we need to ask not whether an individual did something wrong; the question is whether there is any reason to believe that is why Trump took action. In McCabe’s case, the answer is obvious.

From Trump’s own words, it is clear that he had McCabe fired not for anything he did wrong, but for what he did right: His refusal to pledge political loyalty to Trump, his determination that the investigation of Trump and his campaign continue without compromise, and his testimony to the House Intelligence Committee corroborating Comey’s damning account of Trump’s obstruction.

McCabe’s firing serves Trump’s purposes, whether or not McCabe did anything wrong. And every FBI agent investigating matters that Trump finds uncomfortable, every intelligence officer reporting on Russian efforts to corrupt our democracy, every career civil servant doing his or her duty in the face of political pressure has been sent a chilling message: Cross the president at your peril. He will single you out, he will harass you publicly, he will find a way to end your career. He may even deny you a pension you have spent decades earning through selfless public service.

This, then, is the challenge that confronts Trump’s opponents dedicated to protecting the rule of law from his political power. Standing up to Trump may indeed involve standing unequivocally with imperfect people, people who may have done something wrong — to stop the president from perpetrating an even bigger wrong, with an even greater cost to our system.

I stand with Andrew McCabe."




The Washington Post...https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...517e912f125_story.html?utm_term=.e1afb17f7832
 
I went to bed very depressed. This article in today's excerpted on-line edition of "The New York Times" really cheered me up. The United States intelligence community is on my side.

‘You Will Not Destroy America’: A Trump Battle Is No Longer One-Sided"
By KATIE ROGERSMARCH 19, 2018


"WASHINGTON — Usually, top intelligence and law enforcement officials withdraw to lives of tight-lipped relative anonymity after their careers end. (Suffice it to say, they are not exactly known for viral Twitter battles.)

But as President Trump has voiced his grievances against the F.B.I. with a series of insult-laden tweets, his targets have responded nearly in kind, turning a conflict that would in the past have stayed behind closed doors into a brawl for all to see.

Throughout the weekend, the president attacked 'lying James Comey,' the F.B.I. director he fired last year. He also celebrated the dismissal of Mr. Comey’s onetime deputy, Andrew G. McCabe, calling it on Friday 'a great day for Democracy.'

Mr. Comey struck back on the president’s preferred digital soapbox. 'Mr. President, the American people will hear my story very soon,' he wrote on Twitter on Saturday, in what was most likely a reference to his coming book. 'And they can judge for themselves who is honorable and who is not.'

Mr. McCabe, through his lawyer, tweeted a similar message, though with a biting flourish. 'We will not be responding to each childish, defamatory, disgusting & false tweet by the President,' said the lawyer, Michael R. Bromwich. 'The whole truth will come out in due course.'

Other former officials who have been the subject of the president’s taunts have also had choice words for him on Twitter. John O. Brennan, a former C.I.A. director who now refers to himself as 'a nonpartisan American who is very concerned about our collective future,' attacked the president’s character on Saturday.

'When the full extent of your venality, moral turpitude, and political corruption becomes known, you will take your rightful place as a disgraced demagogue in the dustbin of history,' wrote Mr. Brennan, whom Mr. Trump once called 'one of the biggest liars and leakers in Washington.' 'You may scapegoat Andy McCabe, but you will not destroy America...America will triumph over you.'

Throughout history, presidents have found themselves in private conflict with members of law enforcement and intelligence agencies. Bill Clinton clashed with Louis J. Freeh, who oversaw the F.B.I. during the Lewinsky scandal. Richard M. Nixon fired the independent special prosecutor in the 'Saturday Night Massacre,' and his attorney general and deputy attorney general resigned in protest.

But those tense interactions, experts say, seem almost quaint compared to the public mudslinging unfolding now.

'We’ve never had anybody so blatantly go after a president before,' Gary J. Schmitt, a scholar at the American Enterprise Institute who was once an intelligence adviser to President Ronald Reagan, said in an interview. 'It’s also unprecedented to have a president so overtly going after various intelligence officials.'

He added, 'It’s a race to the bottom.'

The president, who has no qualms about publicly attacking individuals as well as institutions, has grown only more frustrated as the investigation into his campaign’s ties to Russia continues well beyond the timeline given to him by his lawyers. On Saturday, one of them, John Dowd, said that he thought the investigation was baseless and should end.

The president followed up with a pair of tweets singling out the special counsel, Robert S. Mueller III, for the first time.


...​

Jeremy Bash, who served as chief of staff to Leon E. Panetta in his roles as C.I.A. director and defense secretary during the Obama administration, said in an interview that current and former officials were alarmed to see a president so intent on eroding the public’s trust in the F.B.I. They are keenly aware, Mr. Bash said, that Mr. Trump’s insults have a way of making it to TV, and vice versa.

'It seems to be a very short distance between the president’s Twitter device and the megaphone of Fox News and other allies on Capitol Hill,' Mr. Bash said. 'I think most professionals I speak with think he will ultimately fail, but they worry we are a few Fox News segments away from more and more people in that conspiracy theory echo chamber.'

Some experts question the decision of Mr. Comey and others to publicly hit back at the president. Mike German, a former F.B.I. agent who is now at the Brennan Center, a public policy and law institute, said the public exchanges were further proof of an eroding of trust between the head of the executive branch and its traditionally apolitical civil servants.

He said the former officials’ willingness to speak out against the president could spell problems for Mr. Mueller.

'I would imagine from Bob Mueller’s point of view having potential witnesses tweeting back and forth with the president is the last thing you want,' Mr. German said. 'The credibility of everyone involved is being torn to tatters in broad daylight.'

Vicki Divoll, a former general counsel for the Senate Intelligence Committee and a former assistant general counsel for the C.I.A., said remarks by former officials like Mr. Comey and Mr. Brennan reflected a larger frustration that others, including Republican members of Congress, were not speaking out against transgressions that would have felled other politicians.

'Comey and Brennan are perfect examples who do not seek the limelight,' Ms. Divoll said, 'who do not do anything but speak publicly and privately in very measured ways. But the gloves are off. That’s not happening anymore.'”

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/19/...version=Full&region=Marginalia&pgtype=article
 
I can't stand John Bolton, McMaster was a way better choice. Bolton is an ass and will cause trouble. Too much of an interventionist. This is a big mistake because Bolton will have us in every mess across the globe.
 
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redwood66 said:
I can't stand John Bolton, McMaster was a way better choice. Bolton is an ass and will cause trouble. Too much of an interventionist. This is a big mistake because Bolton will have us in every mess across the globe.
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You are scaring the daylights out of me Red!!!

Enjoy your trip!
 
Trump gave away the farm. The Dems. got everything that they wanted in the bill. Schumer and Pelosi is out celebrating..
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. He might run as a Dem. in 2020..:bigsmile:

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/...-were-able-to-accomplish-more-in-the-minority
 
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