Graff , Tiffiny or Harry Winston

[Carolynw]

We went to three places today in New York City.
Cartier was the first, she showed them the ring that is in this posting the 1895 solitaire with bagettes sides,
it was 1.62 H VS1 Gia#13405235 They wanted $34,300 for it, without taxes.
The setting was nice, very pretty in fact, alittle higher than the Harry Winston.
A plan band was with it.

Second was Harry Winston, to look again at the round 1.51 E VS2 Very good & Very good, not excellent. This one has the bagettes and the claw like prongs, very nice. They would not give GIA #, not sure why. They could possibly get more #''s on it, but they were pretty clear they stand by this cut. They said that the Depth is 62.1 and the table is 61. I do remember that much. They did take 5% off, which was about 2,500 or 3,000 about, which made the ring about 36,000.00.

Third was Tiffiny: They showed 1.50 round D Color VS2 for $35,400.00. Their own report says: excellent excellent excellent, it is not GIA but Tiffiny''s grading.

All the rings are before taxes.

Well, in the end she went back to Harry Winston because that was the setting she really loved. The lower setting, and the claws on the prongs. Plus the E color really seemed to sparkle more. There was something different about HW setting compared to the others, they whole styles were the same, round with bagettes, but the HW really just appeared classic and really nice with the split prongs and how the diamond kind of went into the setting, and not out like it did at Tiffiny and Cartier. Cartier actually was the highest out of the setting.

Anyway, not sure, but i think she is going to get the HW. I know, crazy, but that is the one I think she loved, and hopefully HW will stand by their name and the ring she picked out will have a good cut, and be a good diamond for the $$.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Date: 10/13/2007 10:43:07 PM
Author: Carolynw
We went to three places today in New York City.
Cartier was the first, she showed them the ring that is in this posting the 1895 solitaire with bagettes sides,
it was 1.62 H VS1 Gia#13405235 They wanted $34,300 for it, without taxes.
The setting was nice, very pretty in fact, alittle higher than the Harry Winston.
A plan band was with it.

Second was Harry Winston, to look again at the round 1.51 E VS2 Very good & Very good, not excellent. This one has the bagettes and the claw like prongs, very nice. They would not give GIA #, not sure why. They could possibly get more #''s on it, but they were pretty clear they stand by this cut. They said that the Depth is 62.1 and the table is 61. I do remember that much. They did take 5% off, which was about 2,500 or 3,000 about, which made the ring about 36,000.00.

Third was Tiffiny: They showed 1.50 round D Color VS2 for $35,400.00. Their own report says: excellent excellent excellent, it is not GIA but Tiffiny''s grading.

All the rings are before taxes.

Well, in the end she went back to Harry Winston because that was the setting she really loved. The lower setting, and the claws on the prongs. Plus the E color really seemed to sparkle more. There was something different about HW setting compared to the others, they whole styles were the same, round with bagettes, but the HW really just appeared classic and really nice with the split prongs and how the diamond kind of went into the setting, and not out like it did at Tiffiny and Cartier. Cartier actually was the highest out of the setting.

Anyway, not sure, but i think she is going to get the HW. I know, crazy, but that is the one I think she loved, and hopefully HW will stand by their name and the ring she picked out will have a good cut, and be a good diamond for the $$.

D 62.1 T 61 is not a really good combination - it might be why they do not want to give out #''s?

 

[Carolynw]

It was strange, because Cartier didn''t have any issues giving GIA #, why does HW have an issue giving out GIA#.
When they asked they said no, you cannot have it before you buy. But, they said they could right down the #''s,
but they didn''t give them time, they quickly took it away. They emailed HW to see if they could get more
specs on the ring from the GIA report.

So your saying those are bad #''s, or are they somehwhat of a good cut, or not at all and that''s possibly why it''s still not sold and the only one to look at?

 

[Carolynw]

What about the one from Cartier? Is that a well cut stone, since they did provide the specs? and GIA#.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Carolyn, this is interesting, because I have a 1.63 H VS1, excellent cut, hearts and arrows (top quality cut) and it was $14,000. Add a Leon Mege setting with side baguettes maybe for $3000 max, and I have a better ring than the Cartier for $17,000...less than half the price!!!

I wouldn''t buy a 61 table 61 depth stone if it was half price! That cert won''t say excellent cut, and that is probably why they won''t give it out.

All of us here are amazingly fortunate, because we are getting better diamonds than the people shopping at these big name stores!!! I''d put Leon''s settings up against any of those, too.

 

[Carolynw]

DiamondSeeker:

Thanks for your feedback. What did you think about the Cartier one, I believe that one has a good GIA, can you look at it. They did give out the # of the GIA.

I agree with you, something just didn''t seem right about them not wanting to give the GIA numbers.
Seems like that is something that should be given out and you shouldn''t have to feel embarressed to ask for it.
I think what is happening here is that HW sells high dollar stuff, and this is low dollar, so that are selling it
acting as if this is a great ring no matter what because it''s a HW, and asking for the GIA cert is sort of a waste
of time because it''s a HW, and since it''s a HW, you shouldn''t even be looking at the specs. He mentioned
that the pick their stones for their value and how they sparkle, etc.. and going by the specs is not always
a clear indication of how well a diamond performs. I guess what Im trying to say, is they were going to write
down the GIA#, because Gary here at Pricescope said, get that, and it''s easy to look up the cert. But, when
they asked, HW said they could not give that out. So deep inside they didn''t ask why, but they wondered
why not, why is it so mysterious or hidden, why can they only quickly look at the GIA cert and not have enough
time before it is grabbed out of their hands. Hope Im making sense. They were very nice, don''t get me wrong.
But, it would have been much easier if they would have given them the GIA # and then they wouldn''t of had to
quickly jot down the specs, which they did not have time for. They just sort of didn''t want them to care about
that, because of the fact that you are buying form HW. So, it was sort of embarrassing pressing for that, hope that makes sense. Now at Cartier, the lady was very nice and had no problem giving out the GIA report #.

 

[Ellen]

Carolyn, I think you hit the nail on the head. HW thinks just because they are who they are, no one should question their goods. Rubbish. If their stuff is so great, they should be more than happy to hand over any and all info a customer asks for.

About that 61 table...most here prefer on the smaller side. GIA small table measurements go from 52 to 59, so this would be a med. It will cause a more glassy look, and lose a bit of fire. In a really well cut stone, you normally see tables from about 54-57, maybe 58. Some here would call 61 a landing pad....

I can''t get the GIA site to come up to look at the numbers on the Cartier stone, maybe it will work later.

 

[Carolynw]

Cartier Specs on GIA 13405235

Measurements 7.53-7.58 x 4.67 mm
Carat Weight: 1.62
Color Grade: H
Clarity Grade: VS1

Depth: 61.8%
Table: 57%
Girdle: Medium
Cutlet: None

Polish: Excellent
Symmetry: Excellent
Fluorescense: None


One thing that HW mentioned, they said that this H color is really bad, that they will see the yellow in the ring, and that is why this ring was less expensive. HW said going from H to E is major difference and that is why their E is a much better stone.

 

[WorkingHardforSmallRewards]

Date: 10/14/2007 9:25:49 AM
Author: Carolynw
DiamondSeeker:


acting as if this is a great ring no matter what because it's a HW, and asking for the GIA cert is sort of a waste of time because it's a HW, and since it's a HW, you shouldn't even be looking at the specs. He mentioned that the pick their stones for their value and how they sparkle, etc..

Do you really believe that?

GIA is a VERY respectable organization. World reknown, even when walking around jewelery stores in countries outside of the US diamonds graded by them are often up in separate display cases and carrying premiums. If HW was able to show you how good the cut was by showing you a positive report by the world world-reknown GIA, don't you think they would do that?


You are suggesting that they are selective by cut AND they have papers to back it up, but that just isn't logical.


When you have something that helps you make a sell you bring it out and show it off.

When you have something that prevents you from making a sell you put it in the closet and hide it behind your namebrand.

but it is not very illogical to think:

When you have something that helps you make a sell you put it in the closet and hide it behind your name brand.

Now it is possible a company might not offer it up to you right off the bat, for the sake of those who come only for the name brand, and sure you might come across a poor SA every now and then, but given what you described this is on obvious case of the cert not supporting what the company says, and it thus hurting the sales process--therefore sliding it in the back of the closet.

I don't think they have earned your premiums.

I will let somebody else tackle the H color thing. I partially agree with them, especially at 2cts...but not the way they put it.

H color is certainly not "very bad" and you certainly are not going to look at the diamond and think "yellow." Thats faaarr from the truth. HW is obviously giving you alot of BS, you should not have to put up with these kind of sales gimmicks from THEM.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Date: 10/14/2007 11:35:54 AM
Author: Carolynw
Cartier Specs on GIA 13405235

Measurements 7.53-7.58 x 4.67 mm
Carat Weight: 1.62
Color Grade: H
Clarity Grade: VS1

Depth: 61.8%
Table: 57%
Girdle: Medium
Cutlet: None

Polish: Excellent
Symmetry: Excellent
Fluorescense: None


One thing that HW mentioned, they said that this H color is really bad, that they will see the yellow in the ring, and that is why this ring was less expensive. HW said going from H to E is major difference and that is why their E is a much better stone.

Table and depth look good...need crown and pavilion angles to be sure. But still, this stone is not worth double my stone which is almost identical.

 

[Carolynw]

Hi,

Agreed, when we came back last night, we discussed the HW experience. When your there and in the moment, it''s hard to get a grasp of what all is happening. My brother is very scientific and when he purchases the ring, he wants to know the specs. So, he emailed them asking for them, hopefully they will supply them.
I agree with the poster above, they shouldn''t have any trouble providing all the details so that a consumer can make a decision based on what requirements that customer feels they need for themselves. Perhaps some people don''t need that, and the HW name is all they need to believe, but my brother likes to know everything about the purchase he is making, so it''s not so simple when HW says, that is not important.

On the Cartier one, it is very expensive, but I think you are paying again for the name, and the setting.
The setting was very nice. I''m not sure about the angles, etc.. sarin, because when they asked, they didn''t have
one to provide.

Isn''t it true, not all stores if they have a GIA report give you the angles, etc.. Sarin report. All that is not listed automatically on the GIA report, how would you go about getting one from a place like Cartier?

 

[Gypsy]

This thread just keeps getting more and more interesting. I wouldn''t buy a bum rock with the HW name on it. But I can understand loving the setting. I just really have started to adore Cartier''s service even though honestly, so many of their designs aren''t ''me''... I know what I''d do, but well... it''s not really helpful in this case. Cause I''d either buy from Cartier... or HoF if I had to have a ''name brand'' ring. But then again... I know I''d go with DS''s route... and get an ideal cut diamond and a Leon for the setting. I just wouldn''t put up with these issues for another second. HW sounds like they are trying to bully you into a purchase.

 

[WorkingHardforSmallRewards]

Date: 10/14/2007 12:33:36 PM
Author: Carolynw
Hi,


Agreed, when we came back last night, we discussed the HW experience. When your there and in the moment, it''s hard to get a grasp of what all is happening. My brother is very scientific and when he purchases the ring, he wants to know the specs. So, he emailed them asking for them, hopefully they will supply them.

I agree with the poster above, they shouldn''t have any trouble providing all the details so that a consumer can make a decision based on what requirements that customer feels they need for themselves. Perhaps some people don''t need that, and the HW name is all they need to believe, but my brother likes to know everything about the purchase he is making, so it''s not so simple when HW says, that is not important.


On the Cartier one, it is very expensive, but I think you are paying again for the name, and the setting.

The setting was very nice. I''m not sure about the angles, etc.. sarin, because when they asked, they didn''t have

one to provide.


Isn''t it true, not all stores if they have a GIA report give you the angles, etc.. Sarin report. All that is not listed automatically on the GIA report, how would you go about getting one from a place like Cartier?

GIA reports have angles listed. The new ones anyway. I believe the older ones do not, but even on some of those you can call GIA and ask for it and they can provide you with them. I focused on AGS for a while so I am not 100% positive on that, but I do believe its true? I would look it up again myself but that takes too long hopefully somebody else will confirm, but I am pretty sure.

 

[iheartscience]

If your brother is very scientific, then I''m surprised he wouldn''t want to purchase a super ideal cut diamond, like a H&A AGS 0. Especially after seeing how limited their selection is at Cartier, HW and Graff. I would definitely skip the HW ring-those numbers are not good, and the fact that they won''t give out the GIA # is just weird. You''re paying $36,000+ for a 1.5 carat and they won''t let you check the specs? Ridiculous.

I know they want a name brand, but it is soooo hard for me to understand why they won''t entertain the idea of an actual ideal cut diamond in a gorgeous, handmade Leon Mege setting. For $36,000 she could get a 2.5ish carat AGS 0 diamond and a great setting. I assume you''ve explained all this to them, but maybe they''ll be more open to it after not having much luck at any of the big name stores?

 

[mercoledi]

The GIA report is from June 2004 and doesn''t list the angles.

Link to report

 

[WorkingHardforSmallRewards]

hum,. I suppose cartier could resubmit the diamond?

"Round brilliant diamonds graded prior to Jan. 1, 2005
The diamond must be submitted to the GIA Laboratory for additional measurement information before an Updated Report with a cut grade can be issued. The new report will reflect the current date, not the date of the original report. The fee for this Updated Report is 75% of the diamond grading fee."

found here:

http://www.gia.edu/newsroom/608/24802/news_release_details.cfm

I assume that means they do not have your angles on file anywhere...sorry

using these big names is looking like WAAAYYY to much work...

 

[Carolynw]

Hum, very interesting about the GIA report back from 2004, and no angles listed. I will see if they are willing to have it redone at the GIA to get the angles, etc...

I have told them about this website and Leon''s work, they still want one of the name brands, I know, crazy.
I''m just trying to help them, and I agree it is tons of work, and really shouldn''t be.

When they went to Tiffany, the sales lady was not good. She brought out 2 rings, that was it
and didn''t even say, let''s look at this, or this, etc..
So, i think they will go back and try and get a better sales person.

Also, they are rethinking Graff now. They are going to go back there too and avoid HW totally.

They are even thinking of maybe going to Michael Fina and picking out a simple Michael B setting and then
focus on getting a very good loose stone, not sure about this one, but they did mention it.

Anyway, good that they didn''t by the HW one.

 

[iheartscience]

Yes, please please have them at least go to Michael C. Fina and see what they have to offer! That way they can get an ideal cut loose stone and a gorgeous setting, but they can see it in person since they don''t want to buy online.

 

[solange]

When I went to Tiffany, they did not have what I was looking for in the ring department but as I mentioned before, I found a stone on my own in the pendant department that they were willing to reset inot a ring. She might check as to whether they have anything suitable in a pendant that could be set in a ring..

When I went to Harry Wintson the salesman took my number and called me about a 5 carat GVS stone
he located that seemed reasonable by their prices. But when I asked for any further information he did not have a clue as to what I was talking about. I am under the impression that the salespeople in these upscale establshments are not very knowledgeable and act as if what they have is the best and you are the uninformed consumer they are used to.

A beautifully cut H might be prettier than a so so cut E and you can get a larger stone or save money. After going through th highscale stores and the Diamond District I found buying on the net a breeze, You can speak to a well informed person on the phone and have a great selection at a fraction of the price and much less frustration.

I would call Tiffany if they must have a prestigious name and ask to make an appointment with an experienced salesperson since the one you had did not seem to do the job. There is no sense to paying these prices for service and knowledge you are obviously not getting and wasting any more time with people who are not prepared to give the service they are known for.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Yes, a Michael B setting with an ideal cut stone would be beautiful!! Then tell them to make an appointment with Jonathan at Good Old Gold, and he will give them a diamond education, which is something these other jewelers obviously do not care to do!

Here are some ideas of what they could get:

1.84 F VS2, $21,909 http://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond/2622/

2.01 H VS2, $24,188 http://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond/3488/

2.32 H VS2, $27,918 http://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond/3133/

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

The numbers from a GIA report can help reject a diamond. GIA give some steep deep diamonds their excellent garde that few regulars on this board would recomend.

But when actually shopping and making SELECTIONS - you can not go past an Ideal-scope. (I have a vested interest in saying this, but my motivation is not for a few dollars of cost recovery - selling them costs more than I earn - it is because I would like to see diamond cut quality improve.) If top name companies do, as we have seen recently, include not so top line diamond cuts in their ranges, then they should be aware that they have a QC problem.

The problem is probably a result of well trained expertise, where the training occured a decade ago, and there has not been enough keeping up. We regularly see it here where consumers know a lot more than so called experts with 20 years experiance.

 

[Carolynw]

The F color ring looks really nice, maybe that''s the best route, loose stone, then pick out a Michael B setting.

Your right, HW the sales people just shake their heads when you mention any other store, they believe they are
the best, and don''t ask any questions about what your buying

I will let them know to go to Michael Fina and Fortunoff to look at loose stones, and possibly good old gold where
this F is.

They are going at it again this next weekend, so ill let you know how it goes in New York City again.
They are definitely now that they read everything here, they will probably not do the Graff place anymore, since
Gragg only had the 1 ring to look at.

 

[Carolynw]

So, your saying, that just because the GIA reports says the diamond is excellent, it still may not be when you use the Ideal Scope on it. That''s crazy, that means that you can''t trust the GIA report.
Ok, your convincing me to get the Ideal Scope for them now.

 

[mrssalvo]

If you all have the time, a trip to Goodoldgold would totally be worth the trip. Jonathan also has all the tools and tech stuff to show you in person what the folks are trying to describe here. His site is one of the best when it comes to diamond education and although I''ve never been to his store, from other customer experinces described here on this site they will take the time to give you a real diamond education and help you choose a quality diamond whether you end up purchasing from them or not.

Michael b is one of my all time favorites so I''m very bias when it comes to advocating his settings, but I think a stone in the size you''re talking about in one of his settings would be amazing!

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Date: 10/14/2007 7:50:44 PM
Author: Carolynw
So, your saying, that just because the GIA reports says the diamond is excellent, it still may not be when you use the Ideal Scope on it. That''s crazy, that means that you can''t trust the GIA report.
Ok, your convincing me to get the Ideal Scope for them now.

Common sense is not common

 

[sera]

Date: 10/14/2007 7:26:17 PM
Author: diamondseeker2006
Yes, a Michael B setting with an ideal cut stone would be beautiful!! Then tell them to make an appointment with Jonathan at Good Old Gold, and he will give them a diamond education, which is something these other jewelers obviously do not care to do!


Here are some ideas of what they could get:


1.84 F VS2, $21,909 http://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond/2622/


2.01 H VS2, $24,188 http://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond/3488/


2.32 H VS2, $27,918 http://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond/3133/

I hope they really consider this and visit the store even if they doubt they will go this route. Even if they just go to get enough knowledge to avoid a "good" cut stone for the sake of a name and can find a gorgeous ring even at the "name" places (but hopefully they will fall in love with a diamond there and get a Michael B ring! That is such a better option!!!)

 

[solange]

They may also want to try Mark at Engagement Rings Direct since he is in the Diamond District and people have been very pleased with his selections and service.

You might have your sister-in-law look at the sites of Good Old Gold, Engagement Rings Direct, Whiteflash, etc., to learn what a large selection is available with all the information you need to make an informed decision. Or call one of these companies and see what it is like to speak with an informed seller and see how they will extend themselves as opposed to the people who work at these high end places and feel that reputation and status are enough to sell overpriced stones.

My husband was very reluctant to let me buy on line because it was such an expensive purchase. However a stone happened to come along that was far below our budget. Brian, at Whiteflash, said it was rare to find a stone of this size that was a perfectly eye clean SI2 and ideal cut and he felt it was perfect for me. I am thrilled with it.

I think any of the highly regarded Pricescope vendors will give you much better service and information than the places you've been to. They are used to Pricescope customers who are informed as to quality and value and are very competitive as to price.

 

[Carolynw]

I''m giving them all this information, so hopefully they will follow through.

 

[rainydaze]

another suggestion, if i may (and i second all those offered so far!) is to direct them to pearlman''s website http://www.pearlmansjewelers.com/jewelry-designers

he offers top notch, top name designers. they can browse through his site to see many styles of settings and learn more about other designers whose workmanship is superb. and if they see something they like, give bill a call! he''s a pleasure to speak with and works with people all over the country (and world). he also has diamonds, and i think he features the larger sizes on his site.

 

[Carolynw]

Here are the specs returned on the HW ring:

Measurements: 7.28 x 7.33 x 4.54 mm

Carat Weight 1.51 carats

Color Grade E

Clarity Grade: VS2

Depth: 62.1%

Table: 61%

Girdle: medium to thick (faceted)

Cutlet: none

Polish: Very Good

Symmetry: Good

Cut Grade: Very Good

Fluorescense: None