Graff , Tiffiny or Harry Winston

[diamondseeker2006]

I would just show her these to make SURE she understands what she is sacrificing (yes, I know she wants the brand name, but unless she will wear a t-shirt with "my ring is from Graff", NO one will ever know! Sorry, I can''t help myself!)

Here is a 1.84 F VS2, AGS000 for under $22,000 (plus under $2000 apparently for the Vatche setting, or Leon Mege could make one for a similar price and in my opinion, his solitaires and three stones are more beautiful than that Graff 2 ct. setting anyday!!!)

http://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond/2622/

Or, if she wants to go to 2 cts.:

2.04 E VS2, AGS000, $34,000

http://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond/3089/

And for the heck of it, a comparable size to the one they are looking at:

1.58 D VS1, GIA Excellent with AGS0 light performance, $20,656 (This is the stone I''d love to have personally!)


All three of these are probably equal or better cut than the others. Maybe they are just super wealthy and do not care about the cost or the value for the money. I know to some people brand is everything. But in this case, they will not get top quality. One of these stones set in a Leon Mege setting would beat out all the brand rings pictured on this thread.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Date: 10/8/2007 5:39:37 PM
Author: Gypsy

Date: 10/8/2007 5:27:12 PM
Author: vivianv
The gap beneath the baguettes on the three stone ring looks uneven to me.One side is wider than the other. I hope, for that enormous price, that it is just the angle of the ring in the photo.

Oy! You are RIGHT! Now that you''ve pointed it out, it''s bugging me to no end. You''d think that paying so much, you''d get QC. LOL.

And the under bezels are clunky and masculine. They would not get a job in my workshop.

 

[sera]

Date: 10/8/2007 5:27:12 PM
Author: vivianv
The gap beneath the baguettes on the three stone ring looks uneven to me.One side is wider than the other. I hope, for that enormous price, that it is just the angle of the ring in the photo.

I think it might be the angle because the gap on the left side of the solitaire looks larger as well.

But even still, for that price I would expect something nicer than those settings. Maybe it''s the lighting, maybe it''s the fact that it''s a "picture" opposed to a "photograph," but they look cheap to me. I know they aren''t and I''m sure the quality is there, but like diamondseeker mentioned, a Leon Mege setting would blow those away! There isn''t anything about those rings that says, "exclusivity" to me.

They should totally just look at diamondseeker''s suggestions so they do know what they are sacrificing. If they want to pay the price to say, "It''s a Harry Winston," or whatever, hey, it''s their money, but they could see the 2ct rings their money could buy.

 

[egs1]

I''m no expert, actually far from it, but the following is based on my experience in LA. Generally, all have great jewelery and the pricing is very similar.

Harry Winston didn''t have many solitaire rings between 1.0-1.6 carat. Based on GIA, HCA etc., the cuts were good to average (based on a sample of 3 or 4). Don''t let that turn you off, just make sure you check the diamond. They had no problem answering any questions.

No idea about Graff.

Tiffany had the largest selection of rings and can most likely order with specs. very close to what you prefer. Great service and after sales service too.

We purchased from Cartier. The 1895 solitaire was our favorite solitaire design. Service was great, though quality issues resulted in the ring being returned.

 

[Carolynw]

I''m glad she sent the side views. Because I did notice in person the slight differences and how it was not even.
I didn''t know forsure, but now Im sure. I remember now what HW said, I asked them why their setting
looked so good compared to Graff (I know loaded question), but still. She answered by saying:
Graff hand makes their settings, and that makes sense. HW uses a cast, that''s at least what she said.
I personally would rather have a cast. I once had a hand made custom ring made, it was a nightmare,
totally uneven, terrible looking. I like it perfect and so my sister in law will be disappointed in these pictures.
Maybe your right, and it''s just the picture, but remembering what I remember, it was off and that''s
why she liked and I liked the HW better, it looked perfect.

Course it was 10,000.00 more too.

 

[Gypsy]

Boy is this thread disillusioning. LOL.

Okay so I think it''s hilarious that we on here (including myself) are willing to pay extra, put up with artistic temperments, and generally do a jig to get a handmade setting... and HW is bragging about cast settings, and making handmade sound bad. That''s a riot. Don''t get me wrong, cast settings are beautiful and can be just as durable as handmade when done properly (and while I would hope that HW would do their''s properly... apparently my hopes regarding these high-end lines are just pixie dust), but handmade CAN and SHOULD be done well. Look at Leon and Maytal and Ocean. It''s hard to find, and that''s why I searched high and low for a goldsmith, not just a jeweler, but it''s a fact that handmade does not equal your Highschool Woodshop course quality crap.

I don''t think that ''handmade'' explains that setting looking crooked. Or that Cartier has quality issues. Or that these brands diamonds AREN''T as well cut as Hearts on Fire (which let me tell ya, I would buy over any of these at this point) when they are demanding such high mark ups. I think these brands have gotten lazy and are resting on their laurels. This thread is making me angry.

I have to say that in light of ALL of this... and the other posts on here regarding high quality diamonds and settings, I would DEFINITELY go to Tiffany. I can''t imagine paying 10K more for a not-crooked setting when I''m already paying 28K for a 1/5 carat diamond!!! At least Tiffany has selection and you can hunt around for the ''perfect'' ring, and we know that they have stones that score well on HCA, and someone in here has gone in with an IdealScope, and their settings are generally nice (although there was the one Legacy that at 40x Mag wasn''t perfect) and their prices aren''t crack induced like Harry Winston''s.

Okay I''m ranting. I''m really upset for your SIL! If you are paying this much it should be easy. The whole point is that these brand names = quality, service and convenience that you pay for. Service is there with Graff, but if quality and convenience aren''t... JEEZ!

Deep breath. Sorry, just... really irritated.

 

[Carolynw]

Gypsy:

I think your totally right, the more we think about it, my sister in law and her husband and I , it''s a waste of $$ if they can''t even bring in more of a selection then 1 ring each, when they are willing to spend 30,000.00 or more.
I mean, it''s ridiculous. I tend to agree with you too, they may be better off really going to Tiffiny where they have more selection in their price range, actually it will be more reasonable, and doing what you said, making sure they buy the best diamond for the $$, at least they have more selection. It''s really a shame Graff or HW doesn''t have more, maybe they are not really doing much in engagement rings or something, who knows, just frustrating.
Graff is really nice, and the customer service is great, but again, only 1 ring in their price range.
They came back and said it would be only $1,000 to add the bagettes to the 2 carat, but again, it''s 38,000.00 or so.
I think they can do better at Tiffany
I will ask them to go check theirs out and will see what they find.
Is there some kind of a tool that everyone mentions here that they can bring with them?

 

[Ellen]

Date: 10/8/2007 8:10:32 PM
Author: Carolynw
Is there some kind of a tool that everyone mentions here that they can bring with them?

Yes. It''s an Idealscope, and you can order one here.

http://www.gemappraisers.com/

 

[diamondseeker2006]

And if they don''t learn to use and take the ideal scope, tell them that ideal cut has these general parameters:

table 54-57%

depth 60-62%

crown angle 34-35

pavilion angle 40.6 to 41

polish and symmetry should be at least very good to excellent

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Here is a good example of what Garry is talking about. Just because these companies have a big name, all their diamonds are not top cut quality. Take a look at the GIA cert on this Tiffany stone....cut grade: Very Good, polish and symmetry: Good, Girdle: Very thin- medium, HCA score 5.9 !!!, Light return: Good, Fire: Poor, Scintillation: Poor, Spread: Very Good.

http://www.signedpieces.com/item.cfm?item_id=6214 (click on View Certificate to see GIA cert)

I am just telling you this because no one here would ever recommend this stone even at a lower price. If they don''t go in armed with knowledge, they can very easily get a stone that is nowhere near an excellent or ideal cut.

 

[sera]

Date: 10/8/2007 8:45:54 PM
Author: diamondseeker2006
Here is a good example of what Garry is talking about. Just because these companies have a big name, all their diamonds are not top cut quality. Take a look at the GIA cert on this Tiffany stone....cut grade: Very Good, polish and symmetry: Good, Girdle: Very thin- medium, HCA score 5.9 !!!, Light return: Good, Fire: Poor, Scintillation: Poor, Spread: Very Good.


http://www.signedpieces.com/item.cfm?item_id=6214 (click on View Certificate to see GIA cert)


I am just telling you this because no one here would ever recommend this stone even at a lower price. If they don''t go in armed with knowledge, they can very easily get a stone that is nowhere near an excellent or ideal cut.

Yikes! Good information the SIL should be aware of. I think many people hear "Tiffany" and think that means "THE best" diamond... well, the cert clearly shows that is not always the case... though people''s impressions sure shows good marketing on Tiffany''s end.

 

[Beacon]

Yes that SP Tiff resale is really quite off, cut wise. I think in recent years Tiffany is being more careful on cut, especially now that the GIA is carrying standard cut grades. Pretty horrifying I am sure to get a costly Tiffany stone and send it to GIA and have it come back only so-so. I must say I have seen this happen numerous times, but like I said, I think Tiff is now going with the new paradigm out there.

As for the SP, look at the price. Compare to the HW one the poster is considering. That''s a pretty dang expensive extra half carat if I ever did see one!

On the whole I would shop Tiffany and be up front with the salesperson that you want a stone that will rate GIA excellent. I am sure they can handle that request. They have a ton of rings, especially in that size to show. Plus they do have an upgrade program, which may be something to consider. Yah, I know this is already and upgrade but once the bug sets in...we all know what can happen. Must think ahead!

I don''t like it that HW and Graff can show you one ring. That is really crazy. Maybe if you go in there and ask for 3 carats they can show you a dozen. Maybe that''s the business they really want. Judging from what I have seen of them, I think it is!

 

[whatmeworry]

Date: 10/8/2007 8:57:49 PM
Author: sera

Date: 10/8/2007 8:45:54 PM

Author: diamondseeker2006

Here is a good example of what Garry is talking about. Just because these companies have a big name, all their diamonds are not top cut quality. Take a look at the GIA cert on this Tiffany stone....cut grade: Very Good, polish and symmetry: Good, Girdle: Very thin- medium, HCA score 5.9 !!!, Light return: Good, Fire: Poor, Scintillation: Poor, Spread: Very Good.



http://www.signedpieces.com/item.cfm?item_id=6214 (click on View Certificate to see GIA cert)



I am just telling you this because no one here would ever recommend this stone even at a lower price. If they don''t go in armed with knowledge, they can very easily get a stone that is nowhere near an excellent or ideal cut.

Yikes! Good information the SIL should be aware of. I think many people hear ''Tiffany'' and think that means ''THE best'' diamond... well, the cert clearly shows that is not always the case... though people''s impressions sure shows good marketing on Tiffany''s end.

This is an interesting one. If you read the valuation report, it says that the diamond was taken from a pendant and remounted into a ring.

 

[Gypsy]

Date: 10/8/2007 8:10:32 PM
Author: Carolynw
Gypsy:

I think your totally right, the more we think about it, my sister in law and her husband and I , it's a waste of $$ if they can't even bring in more of a selection then 1 ring each, when they are willing to spend 30,000.00 or more.
I mean, it's ridiculous. I tend to agree with you too, they may be better off really going to Tiffiny where they have more selection in their price range, actually it will be more reasonable, and doing what you said, making sure they buy the best diamond for the $$, at least they have more selection. It's really a shame Graff or HW doesn't have more, maybe they are not really doing much in engagement rings or something, who knows, just frustrating.
Graff is really nice, and the customer service is great, but again, only 1 ring in their price range.
They came back and said it would be only $1,000 to add the bagettes to the 2 carat, but again, it's 38,000.00 or so.
I think they can do better at Tiffany
I will ask them to go check theirs out and will see what they find.
Is there some kind of a tool that everyone mentions here that they can bring with them?

I think HW and Graff probably get their steady stream of income from their REALLY high-end custom commisions. It sounds like they have decided to NOT be in the market of upper middle class budget, to preserve their exclusivity. But keep a couple of 1.5 to 2 carat rounds around so as not COMPLETELY alienate the occasional person that wanders in looking for a ring. I know HW has their micro pave cushion set rings available in some lower carat sizes-- but I don't think the selection there is real impressive either. Tiffany seems to be the engagement ring stop for those who can afford it and want a 'name'. It's too bad you can't talk them into Daniel K or Hearts on Fire or Beaudry or something of that sort. Personally, If I was paying 30K for a 1.5 BRANDED ring, I think I'd go for a Daniel K. Their prices are definitely chemically induced, but at least their diamonds are stunning and jaw dropping in beauty. I had one on my finger last week F Vs1 1.5 asscher and I did NOT EVER EVER want to take that puppy off. I did and replaced it with this BLINDENING Hearts of Fire 1.5. It was like a firecracker on my finger. Unbelievable.

Oh... I got an idea, maybe you could suggest you all look at HoF stones to see what a FIREY ideal cut diamond looks like? Just to see? And maybe she'll fall in love? Maybe? I'm sure there is a dealer right by that Tiffany's. Everytime I see a Tiffany there is at least one other highend jeweler near by that carries HoF.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Date: 10/8/2007 9:23:57 PM
Author: Beacon
Yes that SP Tiff resale is really quite off, cut wise. I think in recent years Tiffany is being more careful on cut, especially now that the GIA is carrying standard cut grades. Pretty horrifying I am sure to get a costly Tiffany stone and send it to GIA and have it come back only so-so. I must say I have seen this happen numerous times, but like I said, I think Tiff is now going with the new paradigm out there.

Beacon that cert is Feb 2007!!!!

And Tiffany do not use GIA anymore - I thought that was because of certifigate and Tiffany wanting to maintain their reputation with GIA''s occasional grading variability perception.

But maybe Tiffany do not like GIA''s cut gradeing?

However we do not know for sure that this is the original diamond that tiffany sold - do we?

 

[Carolynw]

I think your correct. HW it really felt like didn''t want to deal with such a small purchase, it''s too bad really. I can remember the lady shaking her head, when I asked if they had any more, and then sitting there acting as if they had the best in the world and this 1 ring was it. Graff was nicer, but again, 1 ring. So, they are definitely not into such a small purchase. I guess Im not used to that, since that kind of $$ to me or my family is a lot.

I think she should look at the Hearts on fire diamonds, and also Tiffinys like you said, and ask them to bring in what the poster suggested or show her.

I think she should give up on HW and Graff, it''s not working out if all they can show is 1 ring each.

Tiffiny''s might be the place for them.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Date: 10/9/2007 6:29:18 AM
Author: Carolynw
I think your correct. HW it really felt like didn''t want to deal with such a small purchase, it''s too bad really. I can remember the lady shaking her head, when I asked if they had any more, and then sitting there acting as if they had the best in the world and this 1 ring was it. Graff was nicer, but again, 1 ring. So, they are definitely not into such a small purchase. I guess Im not used to that, since that kind of $$ to me or my family is a lot.

I think she should look at the Hearts on fire diamonds, and also Tiffinys like you said, and ask them to bring in what the poster suggested or show her.

I think she should give up on HW and Graff, it''s not working out if all they can show is 1 ring each.

Tiffiny''s might be the place for them.

I hate to tout, but please consider getting an ideal-scope before you take them out again Carolynw

 

[elmo]

Something similar they might consider - Cartier has similar name recognition as the others, and the center stone size maxes out at their desired size.

 

[baby monster]

Date: 10/9/2007 8:17:15 AM
Author: elmo
Something similar they might consider - Cartier has similar name recognition as the others, and the center stone size maxes out at their desired size.

ITA.

To me, Cartier has a higher brand value than Tiffany. Also, IMHO, Cartier''s settings are more graceful and look like higher quality work than Tiffany''s.

 

[Gypsy]

Here''s what I''d do:

Print out the specs above.
Buy an idealscope and spend a little time learning to use it.
I''d go first to the Hearts on Fire dealer. They will show you the stones loose, and under their own hearts and arrows scope, and let you play with different sizes in temp settings on your finger. You can get a COMPLETELY eyeclean SI1 from them, drop color to G and get a NICE daimond. They have a lovely solitare: http://www.heartsonfire.com/JC_Search.aspx?item=SimCrC&col=1&view=2 that would look gorgeous with an eternity band. I''ve seen their settings, and they are quite nice in quality and finish.

Then I''d go and look at Cartier and Tiffany. Honestly? To avoid wasting my time, I''d call them give them my specs with regard to the diamonds, and have them pull three rings to look at that meet the specs.

The Cartier here in SF is wonderful, they let you look at anything you want, and their threestone settings are lovely. They are my favorite high end stop in the city. I took my niece in there and they were so wonderful letting her play around (she''s 15). I''d take my ideal scope in with me. Tiffany has a better selection than HW or Graff... so I''d spend sometime with the idealscope looking at their diamonds.


That would be my plan of action.

 

[Carolynw]

Great suggestions, I will get Ideal Scope and go to both Tiffiinys and Cartier with them.
That Cartier one is beautiful

 

[solange]

It seems very odd that one should have to go to any of these prestigious shops, give them your own requirements as to proportions and then have to examine the stones with your own Idealscope. If you have to go to this effort to assure that you get a top quality stone for the price, you could probably do much better at a good retail jeweler without a prestigious name.

One would think that if the stone is there and you are paying an enormous amount for the name, the stones would be of the highest quality in order to pass their scrutiny. Also, one would expect a good selection and top quality workmanship. Before I found Pricescope, I assumed that you were paying not just for name but for quality not available elsewhere.

Before we bought my ring from a Pricescope vendor, I did look at stones at most of the prestigious shops in Manhattan. Tiffany did have the best selection and they are able to call in stones from their other locations. If you want to pay for a name, I think this may be the best choice.

 

[Hest88]

Date: 10/9/2007 11:52:04 AM
Author: baby monster

To me, Cartier has a higher brand value than Tiffany. Also, IMHO, Cartier''s settings are more graceful and look like higher quality work than Tiffany''s.

Agreed. With Tiffany stores popping up in nicer malls everywhere, they''ve totally lost their feeling of exclusivity. Is SIL is looking at the likes of Graff and HW, she should be looking at Cartier instead of Tiffany.

 

[solange]

I agree that Cartier is more prestigious than Tiffany. However, it was my finding that their selection was limited and their prices are higher.
Because Tiffany has so many stores, they have more stones available to call in and they have a large stock in their NYC store. Also, I think, since it is a little less prestigious and they are geared toward dealing with customers in all ranges, rather than just the upper level, you do get better value for your money. And Tiffany is nothing to be ashamed of. If I had not found Pricescope, I would have probably bought at Tiffany's.

 

[Carolynw]

This Saturday they have appt''s, with both Cartier and Tiffiny in NYC.
They both seemed really nice over the phone when they made appointments
and told them size and price range they were looking at.
Now they are going down to view and see the settings, etc.. to see
which one is better for the $$.

Tiffiny mentioned 1 stone they are bringing in, its a G color or H, but its 1.47 carat and it''s 23,000.00
and it''s the one with the two bagettes on each side of the round.
They thought that might be interesting, it''s not quite 1.50, or over, but seems like a huge
drop in price when it hits 1.50, and up.

I''ll let you know how it goes.
They might go with the Cartier if the like the setting and diamond better.
we will see.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Date: 10/11/2007 7:48:18 PM
Author: Carolynw
This Saturday they have appt''s, with both Cartier and Tiffiny in NYC.
They both seemed really nice over the phone when they made appointments
and told them size and price range they were looking at.
Now they are going down to view and see the settings, etc.. to see
which one is better for the $$.

Tiffiny mentioned 1 stone they are bringing in, its a G color or H, but its 1.47 carat and it''s 23,000.00
and it''s the one with the two bagettes on each side of the round.
They thought that might be interesting, it''s not quite 1.50, or over, but seems like a huge
drop in price when it hits 1.50, and up.

I''ll let you know how it goes.
They might go with the Cartier if the like the setting and diamond better.
we will see.

See if you can get GIA report #''s and ct weights in advance on any of the stones they will view from either company. We can all look them up here http://www.gia.edu/reportcheck/ and offer more valuable advice.

Or after the event - if it is too hard before, or simply record all the data (which can introduce errors)

 

[Carolynw]

Thanks Garry,

I will make sure they get all that information and then ask for you what you think.

I might go with them again, it''s kind of fun to go through and look at these.

 

[solange]

Tiffany also goes down to I, VS2. Your sister-in-law might be very happy with a VS2 since I believe Tiffany is fussy about eye clean stones with no black inclusions.She can probably get a larger stone if she drops down to VS2 in clarity.Also,a very well cut H or even a high I might enable them to get closer to two carats in their price range.

Most people,except for those who are knowledgeable, look at size first although I think cut is a most important consideration.
I doubt that many people will ask where the ring came from.Observations are made by how large and beautiful the stone is.

I wish them the best of luck and hope they get the most beautiful ring for the money.
I am anxious to hear of their experiences with the two establishments.

 

[Carolynw]

Solange,

Thanks, that was what she is hoping for, a 2 carat, just seems like they don''t have them in her price range.
She will ask to go down to vs2 and possibly and I, etc.. to see if Tiffany can work with her.
Ill let you know how it goes today.

 

[solange]

I had actually considered an I VS2 at Tiffany. I was looking in the 4 carat range. They did not have what I was looking for in a ring in my price range but they did have one in a pendant that they were willing to reset into a ring. At that time,I knew nothing about cut or other specifications so I just assumed that if it was at Tiffany it was a great stone and it looked beautiful.

This was not a suggestion the salesperson made.I just happened to be looking at the pendants and spotted this one. It was in the price range I was considering and when I inquired, they were willing to reset it into a ring.

If they do not have stones in rings she might ask if they have any pendants in her range that could be mounted in a ring.I wound up buying a 4.10 high I color--almost an H, eye clean SI2 Ideal cut from Whiteflash for a great price but since they are not open to that,I think they might find what they will be happy with at Tiffany.

Goodluck