Graff , Tiffiny or Harry Winston

[Harriet]

Carolynw,
It''s been my experience that Graff will take something off the list price. Did they do that when you visited?

 

[Carolynw]

Hi,

Graff would only discount the tax on the 2 carat one, nothing on the 1.57 one.
HW didn''t even offer lower color than the G, she kept indicating that
was all they had, that one ring in that size with the side baggettes.

 

[Gypsy]

I''d get the Graff 1.57 with the side stones.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Date: 10/7/2007 1:44:26 PM
Author: Gypsy
I''d get the Graff 1.57 with the side stones.

Ditto...if they don''t mind paying about 40% more for the name. Good Old Gold is a jewelry store on Long Island, and they will have stones that are equal and better quality than the jewelers you have mentioned. They can also order this Vatche setting which is pictured with a 1.63 ct. stone. You could do this ring with a top quality 1.5 to 1.6 ct. stone for under $20,000. But if they really want the name, then by all means go with the name!

 

[Carolynw]

They don''t want to purchase from anyone else but either HW, Tiffiny''s or Graff, trust me I already tried to get them to go to good old gold.

They are steering towards the Graff 1.57 because of the side stones and because it''s more reasonable for a ring for them.

They are thinking of looking at Tiffiny''s also before buying the Graff, do you think that Tiffiney''s would be a better option or choice for the diamond? Or should they just stick with the Graff?

 

[Gypsy]

I don''t know. Personally? You are paying so much for a name... and for some reason I feel that the name Graff is more exclusive than Tiffany. Lots of folks have Tiffany rings. There are fewer Graff rings running around out there. But that''s probably just me.

I see a ring I like and I hear it''s Tiffany, I think... Oh how pretty, but then it''s Tiffany, so of course it''s pretty. If I''d heard Graff, I''d do a double take and, if I know the person well enough, I''d grab their hand and take a REALLY close look.

Amber Gretchen''s family has two amazing (AMAZING)colored stone rings, one is from Gumps and the other someplace else, and equally impressive, and for some reason NOT hearing Tiffany made them more special... rarer to encounter.

 

[Carolynw]

Yes I agree, when we went into Graff, they don''t have tons to view in their price range, but they were really nice people, made you comfortable. The other thing is that Tiffiny has tons to choose from, gets alittle overwhelming and more room for mistakes if you bought or picked the wrong one.

The lady at Graff searched high and dry for more in their price and size range, that 1.57 is all she found with the bagettes, I really think that is the one they are going to go with, hopefully it will still be there.

 

[Gypsy]

That would do it for me then. I like to reward good service when at all possible. I would make sure to mention that the service was one of the deciding factors so that you encourage it for the future. It''s going to be a beautiful heirloom ring, and will give her a really wonderful feeling every time someone does a double take at "Graff"-- after all, if you are paying for a name, best make it the most exclusive name you can get.

 

[Kaleigh]

Make sure to come back with hand pics once they get it. It''s a gorgeous ring!!

 

[Carolynw]

I will post the pictures once she gets it, which should be soon.

Kaleigh, does you band not fit flush, it looks like it doesn''t, it probably doesn''t matter,
not sure why, but a lot of people want it to sit flush, and that was one concern
on the bagette style, but actually the plain platimum band looked the best with it.

 

[Kaleigh]

Date: 10/7/2007 4:10:17 PM
Author: Carolynw
I will post the pictures once she gets it, which should be soon.

Kaleigh, does you band not fit flush, it looks like it doesn''t, it probably doesn''t matter,
not sure why, but a lot of people want it to sit flush, and that was one concern
on the bagette style, but actually the plain platimum band looked the best with it.

There is a tiny gap, don''t go by my avatar pic. I am now wearing it with Tiffany''s Legacy band which is bead set and it sits very close to my ering. I don''t mind a small gap.

 

[UCLABelle]

Okay, I am odd one...but....I would go with the 1.5 Harry Winston..

I LOVE their claw prongs, and I like their baguette setting....

 

[Beacon]

What a fun problem to have! One thing: what is she upgrading from ? That would seriously influence my decision. Mainly b/c if you go to a 1.57 round and you are upgrading from a 1 ct or something like that, it may not be enuf, in my opinion, and she might quickly get diamond shrinkage syndrome once the excitement from the shopping wears off.

From these prices, I don''t think Tiffany would be much cheaper, but they would have mucho selection. When I was upgrading I shopped Tiffany and still have their quote: 2.09 G VS1 for 45.6K.

If she is tall and has long fingers like you mentioned, the side bags will do a lot for her. I would give Tiffany a try just so you cover your bases. As someone else posted, when you are spending a premium price you should absolutely get what you want and not just what a vendor has on hand. New diamonds are being cut daily, so do not settle; be in love

.

Let us know what happens next, I am interested to follow this one!

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Date: 10/6/2007 2:25:28 PM
Author:Carolynw
Was wondering which one of these you would consider a good buy, or which one you would rather prefer:

1. Harry Winston E VS1 1.51 round stone, set with their custom setting claw prongs with 2 baggettes on sides $38,000.00

2. Tiffiny's - not sure on prices, just we stopped in and looked at styles, seems more reasonable than Harry Winston or Graff, just not sure if they are as good.

3. Graff - G VS1 1.57 round with two tappered baguettes, setting similiar to Harry Winston, I have enclosed a picture $27,000.00

4. Graff H VS1 2.01 round , no side diamonds, just the round, for $38,000.00 including tax , set in their beautiful simple solitaire, I have enclsoed a picture.

I took my brother in law and sister in law to New York yesterday, they are upgrading after years of being married, and really don't want to buy from online vendor. They want to make sure since they are paying alot, that they get the best for the $$.
Which would you pick, store and stone. The Graff one was the largest 2.01, but again, it was 38.000.00, just not sure if that is a better buy.

Dear Carolynw

I have looked several times at the image of the 2 rings that you posted in the second image.
It worried me.

It appears to be a flat bed scanner or photocopy of the 2 rings probably balanced upside down in a ring pad.
I have just copied some stones myself to check and that appears to be the case.

My concern is that both these stones appear to have rather deep pavilions (using an estimation method called the Liddicoat Rapid Sight Estimation Method) because the table reflections are rather large. Also the lower stone has a fairly large table.

It concerns me that companies with such high end brand names and brand value that should be protected may not be keeping up to date with the advances that have been occuring in diamond cut quality. There is a potential risk that the key standard setting staff in such organizations may be older (like me) and may be resting on their earlier qualifications and under extreme executive pressure - they may not devote the time to keeping up with new developments.

Since I first began my diamond cut crusade in 1999, there have been huge advances - I have said many times that my focus should be on consumers and placing pressure on the average end of the market (mass, chains etc). I did that for 2 reasons

1. consumers know nothing about cut grading - so I do not need to re-educate them (change their religion) - just provide them commonsense and good simple tools.
2. consumers inculde many people with better technical skills than most jewelelers and sales people, and when they are spending their hard earned - they learn faster.
3. the mass market end will experiance more pressure from people who are educated via the web than the upper end.
4. there is more to be gained at the lower end because cut quality tends to be better at the upper end of the market.

By and large, most people I talk with -0 consumers, or various types of trade people, agree that there has been a huge change in cut quality in the past 8 years.

My concerns were heightenet by this shoppers experiance.
https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/a-day-at-tiffanys-with-the-i-scope.69733/

So I would very much appreciate it if those who have the knowledge and the tools could test out not only the Mum's and Pop's and chain stores but also the high end stores

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Great post, Garry! As much as I would have liked to have had a Tiffany solitaire, I realized I could more likely get a BETTER cut stone from somewhere like GOG and WF. So if someone really wants the name brand, I understand. But they need to know that they aren''t necessarily getting top stone quality for the money. That guy did a great job selecting a diamond from Tiffany, though. He went in very knowledgeable and got a better cut stone because he had done his homework (and had his own tools!).

 

[gontama]

Nice catch Gary! They may indeed have too deep pavilion. Actually I thought the cut quality of these diamonds may not be as high as normally considered here on PS, simply because they look (to me) dark around the table compared to those on "fire thead" or "show me the ring".

It may be because of the lighting. But a least they look different from what I am used to. I tried my wife's ring under different lighting but did not appear that way. For example, copmare them to the phote DS posted. Look at the table.

Just "I" could have been totally wrong and I did not want to say anything because they seem to like the brand so much. But with Gary's observation, I think it is very important for them to examine the diamond to be purchased by IS / ASET/ H&A viewer etc. They are very inexpensive compared to diamonds.

Also get as precise measurements as possible. HCA may simply tell the story. It woks in many cases without getting into the discussion about the threshold. The tool does have a great merit. It probalby works best for diamonds from named brands.

There is nothing wrong with demanding a brand name. But if they are willing to pay for the name, they should be able to ask for the best possible cut quality.

 

[stebbo]

Date: 10/7/2007 10:44:03 PM
Author: gontama
Nice catch Gary! They may indeed have too deep pavilion. Actually I thought the cut quality of these diamonds may not be as high as normally considered here on PS, simply because they look (to me) dark around the table compared to those on 'fire thead' or 'show me the ring'.

Yeah, great post Garry - very thought provoking. I'd even say 100% scanner/photocopier from how similar the two stones look - must be identical lighting/camera positions and reasonably similar angles.

I'd suggest the table looks darker than it should, regardless of deepness, because the light source in a scanner/photocopier is so close to the subject but physically offset from the sensor. In other words, the stone is only lit by medium angle light, ASET green and low end red.

 

[Carolynw]

The problem with Graff and HW is that they only had 1 ring each in the 1.57 with the baggettes to look at.

She is going to call them today and see if they can find more to view.

Also, both stores just say they cut the best, or pick the best cut stones.

HW said, Color is most important, then Cut, then Clarity.

Graff just said, we do the cutting and only have the best diamond cuts.

I think my sister in law has to be patient and make sure she has more to view.

She is going to call HW and see if they can find an F color to lower the price slightly.

 

[denverappraiser]

“They want to make sure since they are paying alot, that they get the best for the $$.”

I think the objectives are not being well defined. The best what? They have agreed to pay a significant premium for the branding on the store and, pretty much by definition, this involves things other than the gemological properties of the stone. This can include things like the stores assurance of quality, the status or feel of owning a particular brand or just the overall shopping experience offered by these sorts of stores. Every time you’ve commented on these things it’s been to compliment Graf and then to offer up one or both of the other two as a potential substitute. It sounds like you’ve answered your own question. Go with Graf.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

 

[elmo]

Date: 10/8/2007 9:21:09 AM
Author: Carolynw
The problem with Graff and HW is that they only had 1 ring each in the 1.57 with the baggettes to look at.


She is going to call them today and see if they can find more to view.


Also, both stores just say they cut the best, or pick the best cut stones.


HW said, Color is most important, then Cut, then Clarity.


Graff just said, we do the cutting and only have the best diamond cuts.


I think my sister in law has to be patient and make sure she has more to view.


She is going to call HW and see if they can find an F color to lower the price slightly.

Even though there's only one ring close to their price range in the store, I'd be really surprised if Graff or HW wouldn't or couldn't make one that's identical for them from a range of loose stones, fairly quickly.

If she likes the 2 carat size, have them look for stones in the 1.70s and 1.80s. They'll sell at a bit of a premium compared to 1.5 but far less than 2 carats.

Also if they're concerned with stone quality vs. superideals here, they should specify basic cut parameters in addition to color and clarity. HW and Graff stones normally have GIA reports?

I'm curious how HW and Graff would respond if they request an AGSL report. Not early in the process but when you're ready to purchase.

 

[Beacon]

Date: 10/8/2007 9:21:09 AM
Author: Carolynw
The problem with Graff and HW is that they only had 1 ring each in the 1.57 with the baggettes to look at.

She is going to call them today and see if they can find more to view.

Also, both stores just say they cut the best, or pick the best cut stones.

HW said, Color is most important, then Cut, then Clarity.

Graff just said, we do the cutting and only have the best diamond cuts.

I think my sister in law has to be patient and make sure she has more to view.

She is going to call HW and see if they can find an F color to lower the price slightly.

Some jewelers do feel color is the most important thing as that is a characteristic of the stone that cannot be changed. However, a very well cut round will look quite colorless even outside of the D,E,F range. So, cut and color work together in round cut stones. Since she is paying a big premium, I would say get a very good color stone. I recall you posted an H color - that seems too low to go for me, given the prices. Of course some people are not color sensitive, but it would bother me at that price.

If I were your SIL, I would go to a jeweler like GOG and simply view their best cut round stones. Even if she is heart set against buying from any other than HW or Graff, at least they would see a very well cut stone and they could make comparisons. As far as Graff saying they only have the best cut diamonds, well, that may be true. Probably their diamonds are comparatively well cut. But, since she is paying way, way over what she might pay elsewhere, there is little reason not to demand the very best cuts. It is easy for Graff to say they have the "best cut" diamonds, but just what does that mean anyway?

 

[gontama]

Date: 10/8/2007 9:21:09 AM
Author: Carolynw
The problem with Graff and HW is that they only had 1 ring each in the 1.57 with the baggettes to look at.

She is going to call them today and see if they can find more to view.

Also, both stores just say they cut the best, or pick the best cut stones.

HW said, Color is most important, then Cut, then Clarity.

Graff just said, we do the cutting and only have the best diamond cuts.

I think my sister in law has to be patient and make sure she has more to view.

She is going to call HW and see if they can find an F color to lower the price slightly.

HW said to us that color is more important than clarity, which may be an acceptable opinion given that color can be seen to the naked eye while clarity cannot. I have no problem with their (official) policy to carry only stones with F color or higher. But if they say color is more important than the cut quality, they are essentially suggesting that you should choose any (properly graded) D color stone over the best cut HW diamond with E color.

Graf or any brand can claim that they have the best cut diamonds. Their cut quality is most lilkely higher than the avarage, but how do you know they have the "best"? Even among well known named diamond brands, cut quality can be noticeably different from each other. I have seen that. I think RocDoc once said something similar.

If any of them has diamonds with equivalent cut quality to those offered by vendors here, happy shopping. Premium is for the name. Nothing wrong with that. Otherwise, I would continue to look for another diamond in HW/Graf until I find the one. It is too much money to pay for something I am not 100% sure about.

The reason I shop on-line is not the price lower than the named brands. I am willing to pay for the premiun if they are indeed the "best". I choose on-line to find high quality cut that can be assessed by information provided by trsuted vendors. Those vendors would not say color is more important than cut. They would not say "we have the best". Instead they disclose the information on the diamonds and let the customer decide, which I really like.

Stebbo - you may be right and the dark appearance may be attributed to the distance from the light srouce and sensor. I would still recommend them to make sure the cut quality of the diamond especially because they are going to pay for the name.

 

[Carolynw]

Well, I called HW, they have others, smaller, larger, etc..
but even if you go down to F color, still the price is 35,000.00

The one they showed us was 38,000.00 for E , 1.57
and that is the best price they can give.

 

[Beacon]

Gosh i''m glad it''s not my money - seriously you could buy that ring twice for that price. I guess HW is really nice, but once that diamond comes out of the HW setting, it''s just another diamond. They must really love that brand name.

Overall, I hope they get what they want, but I would want a lot of serious perks for that purchase. When you think about it, this purchase doesn''t sound that fun. They don''t have much to show you, they price it really high. Where''s the magic??

 

[Carolynw]

HW said they have other stones, but they would have to ship them in, I guess from Beverly Hills, he found 1.
Your right, not much to choose from, and the price is huge to my sister in law so they want to make the right choice.
Somehow I''m actually thinking that HW really caters to very large purchases, and this one is just way too small
for them to fuss over.

Graff probably will find more, but again, it will take a while.

Not sure what direction they will go, but they sure would have wanted more to choose from in the price range they can afford.

When I called HW , i said max is $33,000.00 with tax, and he said, well that will have to be under 1.50, then a 1.40 size.
Yikes that''s too small for that price.

 

[WorkingHardforSmallRewards]

Date: 10/8/2007 3:11:38 PM
Author: Carolynw
HW said they have other stones, but they would have to ship them in, I guess from Beverly Hills, he found 1.

Your right, not much to choose from, and the price is huge to my sister in law so they want to make the right choice.

Somehow I'm actually thinking that HW really caters to very large purchases, and this one is just way too small

for them to fuss over.


Graff probably will find more, but again, it will take a while.


Not sure what direction they will go, but they sure would have wanted more to choose from in the price range they can afford.


When I called HW , i said max is $33,000.00 with tax, and he said, well that will have to be under 1.50, then a 1.40 size.

Yikes that's too small for that price.

Do they think it is too expensive for that size, or you do because you know about other options out there? It sounds to me like they ought to spend a little time studying and considering exactly what they place value in, and then figuring out how best to get that, even if it means sacrificing a few of their lesser wishes, perhaps you could advise them hold off on the purchase for just a little bit longer to learn more. After all, she will be wearing it for much longer than "a while." making "a while" well worth it in the shopping experience.

but, either way, I have been wondering why we haven't heard any talk of angles?? There is no reason just to trust a company when you can easily ask the angles, post them here, and find out what they mean yourself. So, lets hear some angles I say.

I also support them going to GOG in person, just because frankly, it doesn't hurt them at all to go to the store and check it out, even if their heart is set on one of the above names, what damage could shopping around and having experts at GOG teach them a few things possibly do? but thats up to them obviously.

 

[Carolynw]

Graff sent side profiles of the two rings, + she is getting a price for the 2 carat to put side bagettes on it.

 

[Gypsy]

The three stone is very graceful actually. I like it. I like where the shank meets baguettes, and the head very much. The solitare is very nice, just a wee bit boring for me-- BUT would look lovely with a blingy band.

 

[vivianv]

The gap beneath the baguettes on the three stone ring looks uneven to me.One side is wider than the other. I hope, for that enormous price, that it is just the angle of the ring in the photo.

 

[Gypsy]

Date: 10/8/2007 5:27:12 PM
Author: vivianv
The gap beneath the baguettes on the three stone ring looks uneven to me.One side is wider than the other. I hope, for that enormous price, that it is just the angle of the ring in the photo.

Oy! You are RIGHT! Now that you''ve pointed it out, it''s bugging me to no end. You''d think that paying so much, you''d get QC. LOL.