Disagreement with a Pricescope vendor about stones

[AprilBaby]

Answered my own question; no

 

[drk14]

This post is not intended to support one side of the argument or the other, but I found this information to be relevant and wanted to share it. (For the record, in my completely amateur opinion, OP's band has stones that are fuchsia, not red). I was interested in what exactly is meant by "pigeon blood red", and found the following:

PIGEON BLOOD: a dark red that is yellower and duller than cranberry, yellower, lighter, and stronger than average garnet, and yellower and stronger than average wine —called also Spanish wine

I also found interesting this picture from a the food blog Lyon+Mia, which depicts a dish described as "French Imperial Blood Pigeon with Caramelized Apricot & Javanese Peppercorn":

In any case, I wish Tourmaline the best, and I apologize if this post is not helpful to her quest for a resolution.

 

[chrono]

This is why pigeon's blood is an antiquated term that should be phased out. There are so many differing versions of it from many different sources.

 

[T L]

This is why pigeon's blood is an antiquated term that should be phased out. There are so many differing versions of it from many different sources.

+100.

I spend 99.99% of my time in CS of this forum, so many of you do not know me. I've been collecting colored stones for almost 30 years. Someone alerted me to this thread. I will just say that to me, this photo approximates what I would consider "top of the line" Burmese material as far as color is concerned. Photos however never come close to the real thing, and then there is fluorescence to consider, which amplifies color in rubies. I hope this photo is educational and helpful to the OP and others.

Tourmaline,
Good luck on your project and I hope it comes to a acceptable solution for both you and the vendor.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Good point about considering the photography may alter the appearance of the gems.

Yes lighting can certainly affect how gems look, but IMO that cannot explain away this particular pic.
Modern cameras do adjust the exposure when there is too much or too little light.
But, there's no way those could have been true rubies but look THAT different when the flesh tone of the hand holding the box looks so close to natural.



The stones have a TON of purplish pink in them ... but the skin tone the platinum, the black box and the light background does not.
The lighting, white balance, or anything else that affected the hue of the stones would also affect the hue of the skin the same amount in the same direction.

True about photography but I meant lighting only. I don't have the energy to dig up pics, but there are many cases of people buying stones from vendor pics (including me) and then discovering they are much darker in normal indoor lighting than in the pics with optimal outdoor lighting.

I think these are not the color she asked for, let me be clear. But they may be rubies.

 

[kenny]

Sorry ... here I go again.

If you white balance your camera to the light source used the gem will look the same color in all light sources.
If it looks lighter or darker in certain light sources you need to manually over-ride the camera's automatic exposure and bracket ... take several pics, some intentionally too light and others too dark and decide later which best tells the truth.

Many people don't know cameras need to be told what kind (color) of light you are using, such as full sun, shade, cloudy sky, fluorescent, tungsten, halogen etc.
Even fancy DSLRs don't always make correct decisions if left in the automatic white balance mode, which is what 99.999% of people do.
One problem is every fluorescent bulb is not the came color, even the sunlight is a different color at noon than it is at 5 PM.
So, all those settings on our cameras are actually pretty sloppy if you want your pics to have really accurate color.

The best way to white balance is to manually white balance.
Here's how: Place a white piece of paper over the gem, if necessary move the camera in closer so the paper fills the view, then press your camera's manual white balance button if it has one.

Also never use more than one kind of light source such as any electric light AND natural light allowed to enter the room through a window.
Wait till night, or close the curtains/blinds tightly.

Obviously proper white balancing does not mean that color-change gems such as Alexandrite will look the same color in pics taken under all light sources.
Those gems actually DO change color by reacting to the various light sources.
Non-color-changing gems don't, and if they look a different color in pics taking under different light sources that is operator error and can be avoided.

The other variable to learn to control is exposure.
Even the most expensive cameras are dumb.
They are all programed to set the exposure to achieve an average reflectance of 18% even if the subject is very bright or dark ... such as taking a picture of a black diamond on a black background, or a white pearl on a white background.
Both pics will come out looking gray, 18% gray and neither is telling the truth.

When people see this problem they think they need more light or less light.
Not true.
If you add light the camera will just block it; if you subtract light the camera will just adjust itself to let more light in ... this is because it is programed to adjust every pic so a print of it reflects 18% of the light striking it.
You need to take exposure control away from the camera and force the camera to let more or less light in than the camera thinks is right.

A third thing that can change how a gem looks that people blame on changing the light source is gems are little mirrors that reflect the environment.
Put a gem outside and it will reflect the blue sky and green trees.
Put it in a yellow room and it will reflect the yellow walls.

They have been making these 'automatic' 'easy-to-use' cameras for the masses for 100 years which promise results without having to think, work or learn anything.
For non-demanding situations they can take great pics but for challenging things they fail.

 

[FrekeChild]

Part of the problem Kenny, is that you are looking at it from a camera perspective. That has nothing to do with how the stone actually performs and looks in a variety of lighting situations. I know, I know, lighting and white balance.

Pink is a lighter in tone red. What looks red to you and Bob, may look pink to me, and vice versa.

And that's not really getting into how sometimes cameras just cannot capture color correctly - for example, alexandrites are very very difficult to photograph accurately.

I realize that you spend a lot of time behind the camera with your diamonds and your lightbox, but I spend a lot of time in different lighting situations with my cell phone, and my eyeballs, and stones can look different saturation levels and tones in different lighting situations. You tend to stay in a sterile environment where you can adjust the settings on your camera to make each photo how you want as you take it, so you don't really deal with a lot of variations.

So I see what DS was trying to say, and I also find that to be accurate. Red stones can look more pink in some lighting situations. It is the nature of the color red, because pink is just washed out red. And light can account for some of that change. We talk about lighting all of the time, with people mentioning that spot lighting in jewelry stores can make any stone look good because all you see is sparkle.

So yes, I can see how different lighting can make stones look pink or red, but perception plays a part in this as well. Tourmaline said she wanted red. If I were the vendor, knowing colored stones as I do, I would make sure that we were on the same page as far as what red IS, which doesn't sound that difficult, until you start actually looking at all of the different tones and saturations of red.

Here is a red spinel (with a purple secondary)....most of the time.

 

[Tourmaline]

I took some pictures in indoor light (in my house) a while back and I can't seem to find them. In my indoor lighting, which is WARM (makes diamonds look warmer than they are), it did look a bit darker, but it was most definitely pink, rather than red. Not even close to red in any lighting. I tried hard on the first day to love it anyway. If I had wanted pink, I would have been really thrilled with it.

 

[Tourmaline]

Ok, here's a picture I just took in our stairwell. You can see that my skin looks warmer in this lighting than it does outside (and warmer than it does in reality), but that these vibrant stones are still pink.

 

[Sunstorm]

Tourmaline, I am extremely sorry for your experience. I still have to read the entire thread but what I can tell you in short is that these stones are most definitely NOT rubies. Not only not Burmese pidgeon blood red untreated but not rubies at all. I am extremely irked when some jewelers call pink stones rubies. The only corundum that is ruby is a red corundum. Now, I agree with red being red. Sure, red can have modifiers and the best rubies do have some purple but their primary color is still red.

As to whether Burmese pidgeon blood reds are available or not, Kenny is right. I know wholesalers who actually have ownership in and people at mines in Burma and those rubies are simply not mined in the quantities requested and in fact they are rarely mined at all. Talking about say 30 matching untreated melee, next to impossible, if Rolex cannot get enough you surely cannot. Not to say this is your fault at all. The vendor should have known this or should have known what he had access to, perhaps some can source you that but yes you would be paying stellar prices. As you have clearly said here this is not the point, you simply wanted red-. Burmese pidgeon blood red was your description as I understand not that they necessarily had to come from Burma and be pidgeon blood red, top quality untreated stones.

I think that the contract is seriously lacking and this is also not your fault, the vendor should have asked you specific questions, specified what you wanted and set it forth expressly in the order form and/or contract. If he was not sure what you wanted, it is his fault. If he was not sure he could not get it but told you he could, again his bad. If we found out during the process, he still should have informed you instead of sorry but ripping you off with pink sapphires.

I apologize if this was said in a very firm way but I do believe that this is deception and as such you have recourse, you can file a claim with your credit card company to begin with. I would also suggest to look for another vendor with whom you can have better communication and who will ask you what you wish to have, communicate it well and tell you whether it is doable or not, I am sure you can have what you would like but this is obviously not it.

BTW, I understand you are double upset as this color is a total mismatch for an L diamond with warm yellow in it. This color is much colder in tone. I generally do not dislike pink sapphires with minimal heat but they have nothing to do with the pidgeon blood red color of certain rubies.

 

[Tourmaline]

Thank you, OVincze.

 

[smitcompton]

Hi,

I am finding this thread to be getting funny. Now it has been suggested that our poster hasn't viewed this in the proper light and she doesn't know what red is. Its PINK

Here's my call. The vendor sourced these stones from someone who calls these rubies. Asian cultures still would call this a ruby, albeit, a pink ruby. He relied on someone and they sold it to him with this name.

You may have to educate this vendor, because he will take the word of his source before you, or pricescope consumers. I don't think he would otherwise have made the ring if he understood they were pink sapphires. Ask for a refund.

I suspect this vendor makes settings, doesn't deal in colored stones much, and his ego may be too large to admit he may be wrong.

Annette

 

[Tourmaline]

Thanks, Annette. I did ask for a refund, and he said no.

 

[ariel144]

any vendor who thinks these are blood red is obviously color blind and should not be choosing colored stones for anyone's ring. unheated blood red rubies are very rare and expensive. I would be furious if I were you. Give me a break! (Maybe he was trying to come within your budget but he should have consulted you first.) Spinels are basically the same as sapphire and rubies and come in bright deep red and can be cheaper than unheated rubies. I've never seen them in melee though.

Hope you get what you asked for. Heated rubies are cheaper...don't know if that would make a difference to you. I prefer unheated rubies and sapphires and they are definitely more expensive. Very rare to find an high transparent quality unheated RED ruby, and so you pay a high price for them.

 

[Sunstorm]

Totally ridiculous. Tourmaline, your second pic has a lot of yellow in it, almost too much and there is absolutely no yellow in these stones, not a single person who is not colorblind could call them rubies.

Now, as to rarity, yes certain untreated pidgeon blood red rubies are easier to get, ok, subpar clarity, not transparent but even many transparent single stones are easier to have because my understanding based on what these wholesalers sourcing them told me all the top watchmaking companies and jewelers are looking for this melee. But the point is not how hard or how expensive, if I am requested to make a ring with them for someone, I will find out whether I can fulfill the order before even giving a quote. If then my wholesaler does not send me the quality or the specific stones I asked for I will contact them to make it right but at the same time will not attempt to hope that the customer will be fooled but try to make it right to them. You would have never seen this sapphire ring. They should have tried to get you the right quality and right stones and explain to you that the delay is caused by rarity and difficulty in sourcing if this is found out during the process. You should have been told all along and offered apologies at the very least.

 

[Tourmaline]

I agree, OVincze. Thank you again for your support.

 

[sarahb]

Thanks, Annette. I did ask for a refund, and he said no.

He said no to a refund??

Where are you with this now?

If this is the end of the story & his final answer, I'd go back to your CC company, dispute the charge, get your $ back & move on. Chapter closed. Is it too late to go back to your CC & dispute the charge? I have no idea, I've never disputed a CC charge.

 

[Tourmaline]

Sarah, I am waiting for him to receive, set and send some sample replacement stones that he ordered for a possible new ring.

 

[kenny]

Ok, here's a picture I just took in our stairwell. You can see that my skin looks warmer in this lighting than it does outside (and warmer than it does in reality), but that these vibrant stones are still pink.

I'm so glad you posted this second pic.
Your two pics are the perfect demonstration of the importance of white balance, WB, how cameras usually get WB wrong, and how we can take control and fix the problem.

While technically a threadjack (since this thread is about the hue of your stones not a photography course) I see this as an immensely important issue germane to any discussion of the hue of gems where pics are taken and posted.

Here are your two pics side by side before I adjusted the WB.



Yes you are correct; your skin does "look" warmer in the indoor lighting on the right than it looks outside.
But, in fact, your skin did not change color and neither does a non-color-changing gem.
So why not use your camera's controls, or post processing, to make pics tell the truth?

Next, here are the same two pics after 'correcting'.
I assumed your skin didn't change hue.
The skin match is much closer but not perfect.
Significantly ... notice the stones look closer in color when the pics are more white balanced.



The elephant is this room is ... the brain does something that the camera tries but fails to do.
The brain automatically adjust to whatever light source we are in.
A white piece of paper 'looks' white under sunlight, shade, cloudy sky, tungsten light, halogen light, all the many colors of fluorescent light - it 'looks' white because we know it is always white.
We are not conscious of the knob in our brain being turned to compensate for the color of the light source.

Cameras don't know what's white (they can only guess, sometimes poorly), so we have to tell them if we want color-accurate pics.

 

[kenny]

FrekeChild, sure, gems look different in different lighting, different environments, and when a huge camera is placed close to them, causing lots of dark obstruction.

Granted, that's the reality of how gems are chameleons in real life.
But if we are going to post pics to help us describe and discuss our gems we should endeavor take our pics in more-favorable conditions.

There's no Bible directing us on "proper" absolute rules of photography technique.
Even if there was, ordering PS members around is a futile as herding cats.
You can even get into competing philosophies on photography ... is real-life candid random photography more valid than carefully-controlled accuracy-goal gem photography?

I'm not trying to get people to go broke on fancy equipment or geek out learning everything.
I just speak up because I recognize that people can often get better results from the equipment/software they already have.

IMO it's useful to explain how if we do X we get result A but if we do Y we get result B ... and offer an argument for why getting B is more useful than A when judging gems in pics online.

 

[luv2sparkle]

I am sorry you didn't get a refund, Tourmaline. You clearly didn't get what you asked for or paid for.

 

[Tourmaline]

Kenny, I purposely had not color corrected the second image because I wanted to show that, even with incredibly warm lighting, the stones are still pink.

 

[kenny]

Kenny, I purposely had not color corrected the second image because I wanted to show that, even with incredibly warm lighting, the stones are still pink.

I totally get what you're trying to say.
Nearly everyone thinks this way when it comes to cameras.
But photographs are not proof of anything when the camera's WB setting does not match the light source used.

People think of cameras as neutral, unbiased truth tellers that prove things.
This is a nearly-universal misconception.

 

[Tourmaline]

Ok, but you still think they're pink, right?

 

[kenny]

Ok, but you still think they're pink, right?

Absolutely!!!

I'm totally on your side on this.

I'm just a born-again Wesus-Freak when it come to gem photography.
I've seen the light, Sister, and I can't STFU.

Sorry.
I know I'm annoying ... a lone voice crying in the wilderness.
But I must fight the good fight.

Now you kick that vendor's bootie and get you some rubies or that refund.

 

[Tourmaline]

Thank you, kenny. I absolutely love your colored diamond photographs!

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Haha, Kenny, I use an iPhone for my pics! Before that I had a little Canon automatic. I have never adjusted white balance in my whole entire life!

Thanks Freke for understanding and demonstrating what I was saying!

Tourmaline, I hope you are able to get the ring you were envisioning! While difficult for you, this experience will be helpful for all those in the future who want ruby melee. These stones are obviously more pink than red in the photos. What size is it? There actually might be someone who would love to have deep pink sapphires!

 

[kenny]

Thanks Tourmaline.

Diamondseeker2006, okay.

 

[luvsdmb]

Are these rubies closer to the color you imagined your ring should have been? Blood red to me is dark,not bright.

 

[Ella]

A gentle reminder that trade members should not be getting involved on weighing in about purchases.