Disagreement with a Pricescope vendor about stones

[distracts]

Based on that box, I think I know which vendor you were working with. If I'm right, yes, their craftsmanship is superb, but their customer service and "return policy" are terrible. They were nice up until the point where I inquired about possibly returning (within their indicated return period too!). It turns out that my future fiance was fine with accepting what I ordered for her so I did not press for a return after that but their shoddy business practices, lack of clear return policy (even playing within their rules & timeframe), and clear lack of concern for customer piece-of-mind make me never want to do business with them again.

It was the antithesis of a "no questions asked" return policy and if I would've known that, I never would have done business with them to begin with. Keep in mind that the product I ordered was stellar quality - I simply wanted to return to save money for something more affordable and was deeply disappointed that they would not comply. I will withhold releasing a name unless I can confirm that this is the same vendor.

Best of luck with your return. From searching other threads, it sounds like if you keep pressing them with this issue, they will eventually give you a reasonable resolution (I hope).

I would like to know the name even if it's not because, well, this is a consumer advocate forum and that sounds like a company I would want to know that about.

Tourmaline - I would also like to know who the vendor is for yours. I think it does no one any good to keep the identity secret. Especially in THIS instance, when you have no problem with the workmanship but instead with the selection of colored stones - it's kind of a niche problem, but useful for those of us who love CSes to know.

 

[Tourmaline]

Did your contract specify natural-origin and/or untreated or treated stones?

The contract specified "burma pigeon blood red rubies" and I had said "high quality natural rubies," which was in writing in the quote. I feel like "top of the line pigeon blood red rubies" is synonymous with "no heat". Maybe I am naive...but isn't that what "top of the line" means when a person is ethical?

 

[motownmama]

I'm a bit late to this thread and I believe it's all been said before me; however, recently I read that actual Pigeon blood rubies are depleted in the mines and are only available in antique jewelry. Of course - the nest best thing would be a lot closer to what you want.

 

[kenny]

Did your contract specify natural-origin and/or untreated or treated stones?

The contract specified "burma pigeon blood red rubies" and I had said "high quality natural rubies," which was in writing in the quote. I feel like "top of the line pigeon blood red rubies" is synonymous with "no heat". Maybe I am naive...but isn't that what "top of the line" means when a person is ethical?

I have no idea.
Hopefully others here may.

I do know that real unheated, blood red rubies that were mined in Burma per a reputable lab like AGL (vs. lab-grown) are astronomically more expensive than the pink sapphires you got ... which I suspect are treated.

Verifying they really are the above means a report from AGL for each tiny stone .. again astronomically-expensive, if AGL even grades such small stones.

I doubt any vendor can provide what you had in mind (but didn't know to specify) at anything near the quoted price.

 

[Tourmaline]

Distracts: If it ends well, I'll do a Show Me the Bling thread! I posted this to see what the consensus was on these stones that I consider to be pink sapphires. At the time of this post, thirty-four [EDIT: thirty-eight] people have voted that they are pink sapphires, and one has voted that they are pigeon red rubies. And the jeweler knows about the thread. I think I've pretty much got consensus here.

 

[Tourmaline]

Verifying they really are the above means a report from AGL for each tiny stone .. again astronomically-expensive, if AGL even grades such small stones.

I doubt any vendor can provide what you had in mind (but didn't know to specify) at anything near the quoted price.

I guess I expected him to have connections with reliable vendors. It really isn't about paperwork for me. I expected a higher degree of ethics, I guess.

 

[chrono]

IMHO, you have not been specific enough, especially with a non CS experienced bench. Top quality rubies will not only have that rich red colour but also be untreated (no heat, no flux healing, no diffusion and no lead glass filling). To most jewellers, heated (with flux healing) is perfectly acceptable. Again, I wish you had asked us in CS before this project but there's no going back now. Let's move on and see how the jeweller progresses.

 

[Tourmaline]

ITop quality rubies will not only have that rich red colour but also be untreated (no heat, no flux healing, no diffusion and no lead glass filling).

Yes, and I thought "top of the line burma pigeon red rubies" meant something when it was coming from one of the most respected jewelers on PS. Again, I was expecting a higher code of ethics.

 

[kenny]

Verifying they really are the above means a report from AGL for each tiny stone .. again astronomically-expensive, if AGL even grades such small stones.

I doubt any vendor can provide what you had in mind (but didn't know to specify) at anything near the quoted price.

I guess I expected him to have connections with reliable vendors. It really isn't about paperwork for me. I expected a higher degree of ethics, I guess.

It is not 'about paperwork'.
It's about being as sure as possible you are getting what you paid for.
Nowhere is that more important than in the kind of rubies you have in mind, except perhaps in Fancy Colored Diamonds of the most rare colors.
It's about an independent qualified lab verifying exactly what you are getting when tons of money is at stake.

Ordering a fine sapphire eternity ring is one thing but when it comes to true natural rubies mined in Burma and verified to be unheated ... we are talking about an entirely different tax bracket.
Real blood red rubies mined in Burma and untreated are an ultra ultra ultra rare & uber-expensive.
Finding or cutting 20 or 30 identical ones magnifies the challenge/cost.
Almost no consumers know about real fine Burmese rubies or are willing to pay the astronomical price for them.
I sincerely doubt the kind of rubies you have in mind are even available in melees in quantities to build an eternity ring, unless you are sporting Ophra's budget.

MUCH less expensive stones passing for acceptable 'rubies' are found in the vast majority of jewelry sold as ruby.

 

[AGBF]

As I believe someone else suggested, I think you would get more expert advice about this topic in Colored Stones.

Since the thread is currently here, I will say that, In my opinion, unless you clearly specified that the rubies were not to be heat treated, then the vendor may give you heat treated stones and say that they are "high quality" and "natural" (as long as they are from the earth). Being "high quality natural rubies" is not a scientific term, after all.

AGBF

 

[Tourmaline]

Ok, but none of this current dialogue is about color. Apart from the treated/untreated debate, I ordered red and I got pink. I want red.

 

[chrono]

Tourmaline,
Again I stress the same as my earlier post:
1. You need to communicate better with the vendor. Most diamond setters know very little about coloured stones. Obviously, he thinks these are top colour.
2. Most people don't know this but top rubies are far rarer than diamonds. I can find a top diamond within a week. I may not find a top ruby within a year.
3. If you are paying thousands for a top quality red ruby eternity ring, I'd also want them to be 100% untreated, which is not impossible in melee sizes.

 

[Karl_K]

Ok, but none of this current dialogue is about color. Apart from the treated/untreated debate, I ordered red and I got pink. I want red.

yea that's what it boils down to.
There is really no official universal definition of a top end ruby in the industry which is why you have to be specific.
I am ok with simply heat treating some are not.
I draw the line at adding material to the stone or diffusion to change the color.

 

[Tourmaline]

Thanks again, kenny, Karl & Chrono (and others, too). He has been communicative today. I don't think I'll have a real update until I see his proposed samples. Not sure when that will be.

 

[chrono]

Glad to read of some forward movement this early. It bodes of good news for the progress of the remake.

 

[MelisendeDiamonds]

Did your contract specify natural-origin and/or untreated or treated stones?

The contract specified "burma pigeon blood red rubies" and I had said "high quality natural rubies," which was in writing in the quote. I feel like "top of the line pigeon blood red rubies" is synonymous with "no heat". Maybe I am naive...but isn't that what "top of the line" means when a person is ethical?

In no way shape or form did you get RED.
You did not get what you ordered or what was listed on the quote.
If you paid with a credit card the valid return reason would be Not as Described.

I doubt you will be happy with the replacement stones unless you will relax your requirements on treatments and origin and just focus on the exact color (hue, tone and saturation) that you are looking for.

 

[Tourmaline]

In no way shape or form did you get RED.
You did not get what you ordered or what was listed on the quote.
If you paid with a credit card the valid return reason would be Not as Described.

I doubt you will be happy with the replacement stones unless you will relax your requirements on treatments and origin and just focus on the exact color (hue, tone and saturation) that you are looking for.

I did pay with a credit card. In August. I hope it doesn't come to that.

 

[kenny]

Get a refund, lower your stone standards, or rob a bank.

Don't feel bad.
PS has a zillion examples of people who a-s-s-u-m-e-d things or didn't do adequate homework before their purchase.

I really think the kind of rubies you expect are not available or if available will cost 10, 20, or 30 times your budget, or more and will take forever to acquire.

 

[AGBF]

I'm a bit late to this thread and I believe it's all been said before me; however, recently I read that actual Pigeon blood rubies are depleted in the mines and are only available in antique jewelry. Of course - the nest best thing would be a lot closer to what you want.

This may not be very useful to Tourmaline, who seems to be on the right path with her vendor now, but for the record I wanted to comment on this posting. It is, in my opinion, very important to remember that there is no color recognized by a laboratory as "Pigeon Blood Red". Red is in the eye of the beholder. What is "stop light red" or "Pigeon blood red" or "real red" or "pure red" to me, may not be to you! A laboratory will give you a breakdown of the amount of orange, pink, and purple in your red. But it will not tell you that you have a "pigeon blood red" ruby (or red spinel).

Deb/AGBF

 

[AGBF]

By the way, I totally agree that you didn't get red stones! I didn't comment on that. In my opinion, that is the issue about which you have a legitimate complaint!

AGBF

 

[FancyIntense]

This is what David at Diamonds by Lauren calls pigeon blood red ruby. He always uses this color ruby. I love it.

http://www.diamondsbylauren.com/index.php/jewelry/three-stone-ring-202-emerald-cut-diamond-with-natural-rubies-in-platinum

 

[distracts]

I'm a bit late to this thread and I believe it's all been said before me; however, recently I read that actual Pigeon blood rubies are depleted in the mines and are only available in antique jewelry. Of course - the nest best thing would be a lot closer to what you want.

This may not be very useful to Tourmaline, who seems to be on the right path with her vendor now, but for the record I wanted to comment on this posting. It is, in my opinion, very important to remember that there is no color recognized by a laboratory as "Pigeon Blood Red". Red is in the eye of the beholder. What is "stop light red" or "Pigeon blood red" or "real red" or "pure red" to me, may not be to you! A laboratory will give you a breakdown of the amount of orange, pink, and purple in your red. But it will not tell you that you have a "pigeon blood red" ruby (or red spinel).

Deb/AGBF

This is why I say "Crayola crayon red." You can easily find a Crayola crayon that says "Red" on it and match. If it's not Crayola crayon red, I bet Crayola has a red-adjacent color that matches. Screw Pantone, go Crayola.

 

[MollyMalone]

The contract specified "burma pigeon blood red rubies" and I had said "high quality natural rubies," which was in writing in the quote. I feel like "top of the line pigeon blood red rubies" is synonymous with "no heat". Maybe I am naive...but isn't that what "top of the line" means when a person is ethical?

Because of the United States' embargo on Burmese rubies (and jade), I'm thinking it would be tough for any US vendor to legitimately deliver what you wish. The rubies would have to have entered the country in the years before the ban was imposed & I don't know how much fine, pre-embargo melee & small rubies are still available in the US at this point.

Perhaps the vendor was unaware -- until he actually sought to fulfill your expectations -- that Burmese rubies are not freely available for purchase and sale here? Although that possibility seems unlikely, given how much publicity there has been in the trade on this matter. E.g.,
http://www.jckonline.com/2013/08/08/burmese-ruby-jade-ban-extended

 

[lambskin]

I think she she is doing the right thing for not disclosing the vendor at this point. They are working together to get the matter resolved. The vendor is probably monitoring the forum and once that trigger is pulled there is no turning back. She has leverage now over the vendor by NOT disclosing it and can make that threat as a last resort. I would return the ring for a full return and find another vendor.

 

[marcy]

I am sorry your ring didn't turn out as expected. The gemstones do not look red to me. I would ask for a full refund.

 

[MelisendeDiamonds]

In no way shape or form did you get RED.
You did not get what you ordered or what was listed on the quote.
If you paid with a credit card the valid return reason would be Not as Described.

I doubt you will be happy with the replacement stones unless you will relax your requirements on treatments and origin and just focus on the exact color (hue, tone and saturation) that you are looking for.

I did pay with a credit card. In August. I hope it doesn't come to that.

Find out with your credit card company how long you can wait before filing a dispute, I would not wait to explore that avenue.

 

[mochiko42]

Even disregarding the "pigeon's blood" description, I would say that is very obviously (by a mile) PINK and not RED stones/corundum. Anyone who considers those to be red need their eyes or computer monitor checked.

 

[missy]

Tourmaline, I am sorry you are experiencing this on what was supposed to be an exciting and happy project. Those stones are pink not red and IMO you did nothing wrong. It was clear what you meant from your color description and I doubt the jeweler misunderstood. My guess is he/she thought you wouldn't be as discerning as you are. Big mistake on their part and I hope they make it right for you. I would be surprised if they did not given they are a PS vendor and want to maintain their good standing here. Hoping it all works out.

 

[ponder]

In no way shape or form did you get RED.
You did not get what you ordered or what was listed on the quote.
If you paid with a credit card the valid return reason would be Not as Described.

I doubt you will be happy with the replacement stones unless you will relax your requirements on treatments and origin and just focus on the exact color (hue, tone and saturation) that you are looking for.

I did pay with a credit card. In August. I hope it doesn't come to that.

Find out with your credit card company how long you can wait before filing a dispute, I would not wait to explore that avenue.

Very true. My CC company only gives 90 days to file a dispute, but you may have more time if you didn't receive the item/service within the 90 days. I would definitely call.

 

[marymm]

Yes, he says he is willing to remake the ring with rubies in the color I want. I didn't think I had to see them ahead of time. I was under the impression that "pigeon blood red" meant something specific.

OP - it seems to me your whole point in this thread is to force a refund from the vendor, is this correct?

As a buyer, you chose to order and pay for a ring sight-unseen, from a vendor known for expertise in diamonds and not in colored gemstones.

As posters here have explained (and as would be obvious by any google search), your supposition that your color term is specific is not valid.

Usually custom projects are nonrefundable, and if there is a mistake/defect in design/manufacture the vendor will fix/repair/make whole at his own cost.

As the vendor has told you he is searching for rubies, and you say he is a reputable vendor, why not give him the time he needs to find what you want? Many have informed you that the search will not be easy or fast.

If you really believe your ring is sapphires and not rubies, and you wish to force a refund, then pay for an expedited certificate from AGL Lab (or GIA - I can't remember if AGL will accept mounted stones, but I know GIA will) - should it come back "sapphire," you'll have grounds for a refund. If it comes back "ruby," then you can continue to wait for the vendor to find rubies in your color choice and then do an exchange.