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Hi, Holly! We missed ya last night!
Debate the VP DEBATE!!!
- Thread starter Irishgrrrl
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Sí! DOS EQUIS!!!Date: 10/3/2008 2:13:02 PM
Author: HollyS
Thanks Emm! Dos Equis, mi amiga!Date: 10/3/2008 2:02:58 PM
Author: Irishgrrrl
Hi, Holly! We missed ya last night!
TravelingGal
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I actually agree with this! (not trying to sound surprised or anything).
Even though he may have been criticized for it, I think he should have knocked her out. If she flubbed majorly, there are enough people out there (like me) who could not have voted McCain with a VP who appeared completely moronic. I am not a fan of the press or Katie so the CBS interview wasn''t enough to sway me, although it was darned close. This would have sealed the deal.
Talked to my brother this morning and I was surprised he was leaning McCain (he''s an independent) but he also finds Palin a bit disturbing. So there has to be a few of us around. She was way too folksy for me. It always annoyed me when Bush spoke like "Joe six pack" one too many times.
And I hate her because I don''t understand how she could have had 5 kids...one the same month my daughter was born, is in her 40s, and she looks 100 times better than me. B*tch.
FrekeChild
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I spoke to an Independent friend of mine last night and he said that he''s leaning towards Obama exclusively because Palin scares the poo out of him. He didn''t watch the debates yet, but he said that he didn''t expect much from either one of them, and that he expected his opinions to remain the same.
Now granted this was the first part of it I managed to catch but holy cow I thought it was embarrassing and cringe-worthy for her....And FF (registered Independent, Libertarian) was bellowing at the TV "ANSWER THE FREAKING QUESTION!"
IFILL: Let''s talk conventional wisdom for a moment. The conventional wisdom, Gov. Palin with you, is that your Achilles heel is that you lack experience. Your conventional wisdom against you is that your Achilles heel is that you lack discipline, Sen. Biden. What id it really for you, Gov. Palin? What is it really for you, Sen. Biden? Start with you, governor.
PALIN: My experience as an executive will be put to good use as a mayor and business owner and oil and gas regulator and then as governor of a huge state, a huge energy producing state that is accounting for much progress towards getting our nation energy independence and that''s extremely important.
But it wasn''t just that experience tapped into, it was my connection to the heartland of America. Being a mom, one very concerned about a son in the war, about a special needs child, about kids heading off to college, how are we going to pay those tuition bills? About times and Todd and our marriage in our past where we didn''t have health insurance and we know what other Americans are going through as they sit around the kitchen table and try to figure out how are they going to pay out-of-pocket for health care? We''ve been there also so that connection was important.
But even more important is that world view that I share with John McCain. That world view that says that America is a nation of exceptionalism. And we are to be that shining city on a hill, as President Reagan so beautifully said, that we are a beacon of hope and that we are unapologetic here. We are not perfect as a nation. But together, we represent a perfect ideal. And that is democracy and tolerance and freedom and equal rights. Those things that we stand for that can be put to good use as a force for good in this world.
John McCain and I share that. You combine all that with being a team with the only track record of making a really, a difference in where we''ve been and reforming, that''s a good team, it''s a good ticket.
IFILL: Senator?
BIDEN: You''re very kind suggesting my only Achilles Heel is my lack of discipline.
Others talk about my excessive passion. I''m not going to change. I have 35 years in public office. People can judge who I am. I haven''t changed in that time.
And, by the way, a record of change -- I will place my record and Barack''s record against John McCain''s or anyone else in terms of fundamental accomplishments. Wrote the crime bill, put 100,000 cops on the street, wrote the Violence Against Women Act, which John McCain voted against both of them, was the catalyst to change the circumstance in Bosnia, led by President Clinton, obviously.
Look, I understand what it''s like to be a single parent. When my wife and daughter died and my two sons were gravely injured, I understand what it''s like as a parent to wonder what it''s like if your kid''s going to make it.
I understand what it''s like to sit around the kitchen table with a father who says, "I''ve got to leave, champ, because there''s no jobs here. I got to head down to Wilmington. And when we get enough money, honey, we''ll bring you down."
I understand what it''s like. I''m much better off than almost all Americans now. I get a good salary with the United States Senate. I live in a beautiful house that''s my total investment that I have. So I -- I am much better off now.
But the notion that somehow, because I''m a man, I don''t know what it''s like to raise two kids alone, I don''t know what it''s like to have a child you''re not sure is going to -- is going to make it -- I understand.
I understand, as well as, with all due respect, the governor or anybody else, what it''s like for those people sitting around that kitchen table. And guess what? They''re looking for help. They''re looking for help. They''re not looking for more of the same.
IFILL: Governor?
PALIN: People aren''t looking for more of the same. They are looking for change. And John McCain has been the consummate maverick in the Senate over all these years.
He''s taken shots left and right from the other party and from within his own party, because he''s had to take on his own party when the time was right, when he recognized it was time to put partisanship aside and just do what was right for the American people.
That''s what I''ve done as governor, also, take on my own party, when I had to, and work with both sides of the aisle, in my cabinet, appointing those who would serve regardless of party, Democrats, independents, Republicans, whatever it took to get the job done.
Also, John McCain''s maverick position that he''s in, that''s really prompt up to and indicated by the supporters that he has. Look at Lieberman, and Giuliani, and Romney, and Lingle, and all of us who come from such a diverse background of -- of policy and of partisanship, all coming together at this time, recognizing he is the man that we need to leave -- lead in these next four years, because these are tumultuous times.
We have got to win the wars. We have got to get our economy back on track. We have got to not allow the greed and corruption on Wall Street anymore.
And we have not got to allow the partisanship that has really been entrenched in Washington, D.C., no matter who''s been in charge. When the Republicans were in charge, I didn''t see a lot of progress there, either. When the Democrats, either, though, this last go- around for the last two years.
Change is coming. And John McCain is the leader of that reform.
IFILL: Senator...
BIDEN: I''ll be very brief. Can I respond to that?
Look, the maverick -- let''s talk about the maverick John McCain is. And, again, I love him. He''s been a maverick on some issues, but he has been no maverick on the things that matter to people''s lives.
He voted four out of five times for George Bush''s budget, which put us a half a trillion dollars in debt this year and over $3 trillion in debt since he''s got there.
He has not been a maverick in providing health care for people. He has voted against -- he voted including another 3.6 million children in coverage of the existing health care plan, when he voted in the United States Senate.
He''s not been a maverick when it comes to education. He has not supported tax cuts and significant changes for people being able to send their kids to college.
He''s not been a maverick on the war. He''s not been a maverick on virtually anything that genuinely affects the things that people really talk about around their kitchen table.
Can we send -- can we get Mom''s MRI? Can we send Mary back to school next semester? We can''t -- we can''t make it. How are we going to heat the -- heat the house this winter?
He voted against even providing for what they call LIHEAP, for assistance to people, with oil prices going through the roof in the winter.
So maverick he is not on the important, critical issues that affect people at that kitchen table.
Now granted this was the first part of it I managed to catch but holy cow I thought it was embarrassing and cringe-worthy for her....And FF (registered Independent, Libertarian) was bellowing at the TV "ANSWER THE FREAKING QUESTION!"
IFILL: Let''s talk conventional wisdom for a moment. The conventional wisdom, Gov. Palin with you, is that your Achilles heel is that you lack experience. Your conventional wisdom against you is that your Achilles heel is that you lack discipline, Sen. Biden. What id it really for you, Gov. Palin? What is it really for you, Sen. Biden? Start with you, governor.
PALIN: My experience as an executive will be put to good use as a mayor and business owner and oil and gas regulator and then as governor of a huge state, a huge energy producing state that is accounting for much progress towards getting our nation energy independence and that''s extremely important.
But it wasn''t just that experience tapped into, it was my connection to the heartland of America. Being a mom, one very concerned about a son in the war, about a special needs child, about kids heading off to college, how are we going to pay those tuition bills? About times and Todd and our marriage in our past where we didn''t have health insurance and we know what other Americans are going through as they sit around the kitchen table and try to figure out how are they going to pay out-of-pocket for health care? We''ve been there also so that connection was important.
But even more important is that world view that I share with John McCain. That world view that says that America is a nation of exceptionalism. And we are to be that shining city on a hill, as President Reagan so beautifully said, that we are a beacon of hope and that we are unapologetic here. We are not perfect as a nation. But together, we represent a perfect ideal. And that is democracy and tolerance and freedom and equal rights. Those things that we stand for that can be put to good use as a force for good in this world.
John McCain and I share that. You combine all that with being a team with the only track record of making a really, a difference in where we''ve been and reforming, that''s a good team, it''s a good ticket.
IFILL: Senator?
BIDEN: You''re very kind suggesting my only Achilles Heel is my lack of discipline.
Others talk about my excessive passion. I''m not going to change. I have 35 years in public office. People can judge who I am. I haven''t changed in that time.
And, by the way, a record of change -- I will place my record and Barack''s record against John McCain''s or anyone else in terms of fundamental accomplishments. Wrote the crime bill, put 100,000 cops on the street, wrote the Violence Against Women Act, which John McCain voted against both of them, was the catalyst to change the circumstance in Bosnia, led by President Clinton, obviously.
Look, I understand what it''s like to be a single parent. When my wife and daughter died and my two sons were gravely injured, I understand what it''s like as a parent to wonder what it''s like if your kid''s going to make it.
I understand what it''s like to sit around the kitchen table with a father who says, "I''ve got to leave, champ, because there''s no jobs here. I got to head down to Wilmington. And when we get enough money, honey, we''ll bring you down."
I understand what it''s like. I''m much better off than almost all Americans now. I get a good salary with the United States Senate. I live in a beautiful house that''s my total investment that I have. So I -- I am much better off now.
But the notion that somehow, because I''m a man, I don''t know what it''s like to raise two kids alone, I don''t know what it''s like to have a child you''re not sure is going to -- is going to make it -- I understand.
I understand, as well as, with all due respect, the governor or anybody else, what it''s like for those people sitting around that kitchen table. And guess what? They''re looking for help. They''re looking for help. They''re not looking for more of the same.
IFILL: Governor?
PALIN: People aren''t looking for more of the same. They are looking for change. And John McCain has been the consummate maverick in the Senate over all these years.
He''s taken shots left and right from the other party and from within his own party, because he''s had to take on his own party when the time was right, when he recognized it was time to put partisanship aside and just do what was right for the American people.
That''s what I''ve done as governor, also, take on my own party, when I had to, and work with both sides of the aisle, in my cabinet, appointing those who would serve regardless of party, Democrats, independents, Republicans, whatever it took to get the job done.
Also, John McCain''s maverick position that he''s in, that''s really prompt up to and indicated by the supporters that he has. Look at Lieberman, and Giuliani, and Romney, and Lingle, and all of us who come from such a diverse background of -- of policy and of partisanship, all coming together at this time, recognizing he is the man that we need to leave -- lead in these next four years, because these are tumultuous times.
We have got to win the wars. We have got to get our economy back on track. We have got to not allow the greed and corruption on Wall Street anymore.
And we have not got to allow the partisanship that has really been entrenched in Washington, D.C., no matter who''s been in charge. When the Republicans were in charge, I didn''t see a lot of progress there, either. When the Democrats, either, though, this last go- around for the last two years.
Change is coming. And John McCain is the leader of that reform.
IFILL: Senator...
BIDEN: I''ll be very brief. Can I respond to that?
Look, the maverick -- let''s talk about the maverick John McCain is. And, again, I love him. He''s been a maverick on some issues, but he has been no maverick on the things that matter to people''s lives.
He voted four out of five times for George Bush''s budget, which put us a half a trillion dollars in debt this year and over $3 trillion in debt since he''s got there.
He has not been a maverick in providing health care for people. He has voted against -- he voted including another 3.6 million children in coverage of the existing health care plan, when he voted in the United States Senate.
He''s not been a maverick when it comes to education. He has not supported tax cuts and significant changes for people being able to send their kids to college.
He''s not been a maverick on the war. He''s not been a maverick on virtually anything that genuinely affects the things that people really talk about around their kitchen table.
Can we send -- can we get Mom''s MRI? Can we send Mary back to school next semester? We can''t -- we can''t make it. How are we going to heat the -- heat the house this winter?
He voted against even providing for what they call LIHEAP, for assistance to people, with oil prices going through the roof in the winter.
So maverick he is not on the important, critical issues that affect people at that kitchen table.
E B
Ideal_Rock
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The "undecideds," from the polls we have, would disagree with you.
As with the Obama-McCain debate last Friday, the vast majority of the insta-polls went to the Democratic ticket. Biden won the CBS poll of undecideds 46-21, and the CNN poll of debate watchers 51-36. Independents in the large MediaCurves focus group panel went for Biden about 2:1.
Even the Fox News quick poll has Biden winning 55 percent to 45 percent for Palin.
Source
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Sweet!Date: 10/3/2008 3:32:32 PM
Author: EBree
The ''undecideds,'' from the polls we have, would disagree with you.
As with the Obama-McCain debate last Friday, the vast majority of the insta-polls went to the Democratic ticket. Biden won the CBS poll of undecideds 46-21, and the CNN poll of debate watchers 51-36. Independents in the large MediaCurves focus group panel went for Biden about 2:1.
Even the Fox News quick poll has Biden winning 55 percent to 45 percent for Palin.
Source
zhuzhu
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Date: 10/3/2008 2:44:35 PM
Author: TravelingGal
And I hate her because I don''t understand how she could have had 5 kids...one the same month my daughter was born, is in her 40s, and she looks 100 times better than me. B*tch. "
LMAO!!!
Actully Travel, from your wedding pics I think you look 200 times better than her! I only wish I have those fancy clothes she has!!!
When you look at the transcripts of what she said at the debate, you can't even follow her sentence pattern. I mean, what was she saying half the time? She was all over the map.
If I took a drink for every "also" she said at the beginning, middle and end of her sentences, I would have gone to the hospital with alcohol poisoning. She needs to ban that word from her non-media filter vocabulary.
And the fact that she didn't know what an Achilles' heal was spoke words for her comprehension beyond talking points and teleprompters.
ETA: Here's the link to the full transcript:
http://edition.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/10/02/debate.transcript/
If I took a drink for every "also" she said at the beginning, middle and end of her sentences, I would have gone to the hospital with alcohol poisoning. She needs to ban that word from her non-media filter vocabulary.
And the fact that she didn't know what an Achilles' heal was spoke words for her comprehension beyond talking points and teleprompters.
ETA: Here's the link to the full transcript:
http://edition.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/10/02/debate.transcript/
MoonWater
Ideal_Rock
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Speaking of which: The Sentences of Sarah Palin, Diagrammed
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Look what I found: USA Today Presidential Poll Tracker
It provides a map showing how each candidate is doing in each state, as well as a line graph showing how they''re doing in the polls in general. Very nice!
It provides a map showing how each candidate is doing in each state, as well as a line graph showing how they''re doing in the polls in general. Very nice!
MoonWater
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KimberlyH
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I''m sitting here nodding my head at the computer screen, in agreement with this remark. I didn''t get to watch any of the debates (Presidential or VP) as my TVs are permanently broken -- satellite television often stinks -- but I feel like even if I had, after all I''ve read and watched I still feel like I am left with no one to vote for, not because I missed the debates but because I feel completely unrepresented by both sides. GRRR! It frustrates me so.
Allisonfaye
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I just don''t get, at this point, how there can even be any undecideds. What do you think is going to change? If you don''t know what these people are all about by now, you are living under a rock.
Scary thought: President Palin
If that doesn''t shove you over the edge, I don''t know what will.
Scary thought: President Palin
If that doesn''t shove you over the edge, I don''t know what will.
HollyS
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That was a ''perception'' comment; my perception. Neither candidate gave a stellar performance; although she didn''t do the whole ''sucking routine'' that so many of you had hoped for. If she had, the poll wouldn''t be that close.Date: 10/3/2008 3:32:32 PM
Author: EBree
The ''undecideds,'' from the polls we have, would disagree with you.
As with the Obama-McCain debate last Friday, the vast majority of the insta-polls went to the Democratic ticket. Biden won the CBS poll of undecideds 46-21, and the CNN poll of debate watchers 51-36. Independents in the large MediaCurves focus group panel went for Biden about 2:1.
Even the Fox News quick poll has Biden winning 55 percent to 45 percent for Palin.
Source
KimberlyH
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I am undecided not because I believe anything is going to change, but because the idea of voting for the lesser of two evils as opposed to voting because I stand behind what a candidate believes is quite frustrating. I certainly don''t live under a rock, I am well-informed, I know what the candidates stand for, it''s just that neither represents what I want in a president and I don''t think watching a debate will change that for me. I have always been registered "Decline to state" because I sit somewhere in between the ideas and ideals of both political parties. It''s a rather frustrating place to be.
HollyS
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Have you been on these threads before?Date: 10/3/2008 7:50:10 PM
Author: Ellen
Holly, I really don''t think people ''wanted'' her to, as much as ''expected'' her to. And there was every good reason to expect it. I''m glad she didn''t though.
I think quite a few folks here were desirous of abject failure from the Rep Veep!
luckystar112
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I tend to agree. Hence the 15 pages poking fun at her accent.Date: 10/4/2008 3:33:31 PM
Author: HollyS
Have you been on these threads before?Date: 10/3/2008 7:50:10 PM
Author: Ellen
Holly, I really don't think people 'wanted' her to, as much as 'expected' her to. And there was every good reason to expect it. I'm glad she didn't though.
I think quite a few folks here were desirous of abject failure from the Rep Veep!
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I just read through (most of) this thread in a fit of insomnia.
My thought for the week: I don''t think the formal, short-answer format used for the VP debates served us well.
It did serve the candidates well however, and (almost) saved each from the bad territory they could have strayed into.
Of course, one needed less saving than the other to begin with.
I''ll be there on Tuesday, jelly beans at the ready.
My thought for the week: I don''t think the formal, short-answer format used for the VP debates served us well.
It did serve the candidates well however, and (almost) saved each from the bad territory they could have strayed into.
Of course, one needed less saving than the other to begin with.
I''ll be there on Tuesday, jelly beans at the ready.
Ellen
Super_Ideal_Rock
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lol Yes, but I choose to believe the best in people. I realize this may be construed as a huge character flaw. I accept that.Date: 10/4/2008 3:33:31 PM
Author: HollyS
Have you been on these threads before?Date: 10/3/2008 7:50:10 PM
Author: Ellen
Holly, I really don''t think people ''wanted'' her to, as much as ''expected'' her to. And there was every good reason to expect it. I''m glad she didn''t though.
I think quite a few folks here were desirous of abject failure from the Rep Veep!
fisherofmengirly
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So true, Kimberly.
There are many, many people that either of the two "main" parties consider up for grabs at this point. The thing is, though, as long as our country remains locked into voting either of the two "big ticket" contenders, there won''t be much changes, I''m convinced. That''s why this election year was so interesting in the beginning, because a few of the "other parties" had some serious support. But like in the past, it fizzled out and now people think they have to vote one way or the other, for the "lesser of two evils."
My husband and I go back and forth on this issue, because I still tend to see any vote NOT for one of the two top contenders as a vote just not made, while he states that you have to vote your conscious, and if either of us did that, it couldn''t be for either of the top two contenders. So, I guess it just depends how many of the "sway" voters end up ultimately choosing a side of the "less evil" or if they choose to vote who they''d wanted to begin with.
Would it be enough to get that person elected? Most probably not. But would it be enough to shake up the politics that are corrupt around here? I should think so! IF there was an outpouring of people no longer sticking to party lines and instead voting based on information (and not a person''s accent, for heaven''s sake!!), it would seriously shake up things in DC. And it would be a lot more like what those who formed our nation had in mind when they created this awesome country.
KimberlyH
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My belief, based on my experiences in my personal and professional life, is that the 10% far left and 10% far right who have the time and the resources to affect change are the people who rule this country. The rest of us, who sit somewhere in the middle of the bell curve, go about our daily lives, working, taking care of families, etc. and feeling unsure as to how we can make real change and elect a president, a congress, a state and local government, who truly represent most of us. If we examine ideals at a base level we all want many of the same things: those who need care to recieve it, successful businesses that create jobs, a sense of security (i.e. that this country and our communities are safe places to live), forward progress in science and technology, etc. I think the party lines are so fierce that we as a society often forget that when it comes down to it we do all want what is best for our families, our friends, our neighbors, even if we don''t always agree on what those things are, and if we approached gov''t from that perspective, a place of commonality as opposed to focusing on our differences, perhaps there would be less arguing and more seeking common ground.
As it stands today, voting based on information available between the two candidates still leaves me with no one to vote for.
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