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Dan Stair doesn't want PSers?!

T L

Super_Ideal_Rock
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Joined
Sep 20, 2008
Messages
23,255
@Arcadian,
Thank you. You are very kind. I appreciate you and so many others on this board. I know I get on some people’s nerves, but I enjoy this forum. It’s difficult to find people to discuss gemstones, which I really enjoy, and looking at them as well. It’s not like sports, or the daily news, where you can find a zillion people out there to talk to. I feel we’re a close knit group because of this shared interest.
 

mrs-b

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Aug 18, 2013
Messages
7,084
Interesting because wasn't there a thread recently (I think by mrs b?) who had a similar issue when looking to buy a sapphire?
Ppl were a lot more critical of the vendor then; so why the difference now?
Just curious
I just want to clarify this.

When I started my thread, I didn't name the vendor, nor did I at any point. I also had a very pleasant experience with him when we met, and his gems were lovely. They weren't exactly what I was looking for (the more I've looked, the more I've realized I'm after something in a larger size range), but I came incredibly close to buying a type of gem I'd had no intention of buying...until I saw it, it was so gorgeous! Since I was looking for things in the 10k range and over, the dealer made the effort to meet me, and I made the effort to get to the destination of his choosing - which was in his town and about 45 minutes away for me. So we both put in some time and effort. I didn't purchase anything, didn't ask for photos and didn't return anything.

So to be clear - if anyone was very clever and worked out the vendor I was talking about - I would HAPPILY still do business with him.

HOWEVER - I would advise him, and any other vendor, that leading with "I know your group - I don't like it" is rarely going to be felicitous.

As for all this tosh in the threads Arkie posted about one vendor in particular raving about Pricescopers being arrogant for identifying themselves - to me, that's just always seemed polite in case the vendor was familiar with the site.

I've done business a few times with Gemfix and Finewater Gems. Also Black Opal Direct and MSOpals. All good. In fact - all great! ( - just wanted to end on a positive note!)
 

Lee Little

Shiny_Rock
Trade
Joined
Jun 25, 2007
Messages
429
@Lee Little - I don't see why other vendors can't do the same thing for all customers that might come along and annoy them. Things like charging a small fee for extra photos for their time, things like a restocking fee if they return multiple stones, things like a clear explanation of the buyer paying all shipping costs if they return anything. If customers return stuff multiple times and/or are really difficult, tell them you no longer want to do business with them.

If everyone sat down rationally and dealt with the problems, instead of targeting any specific group of people you could put in place enough policies to weed out the people that annoy you without having to ban all PSers or have rules specifically aimed at PSers (have the same thing for all customers) or any other group.

My sister in law, who is a hard working, working class tiny 58 year old woman also (apart from my in laws) owns a rock, crystal, gemstone, mineral and fossil shop and she had a guy go in there while she was on her own, steal something of a reasonable value and when she said something as he was leaving the shop, he threatened to hurt her.

Garry has had a pack of youths with knives in his store threaten his staff and hold someone at knifepoint, during a gang robbery. So seriously if all online retailers have to worry about is a pack of "middle class PS women" (I'm quoting the F/B rant) and make up excuses like "I'm not educated", "I'm a small business owner", "I'm one person who works hard and am doing my best" and so on, as a justification for completely unacceptable unprofessional rants on a public online domain perhaps they need to reflect that small business owners and staff that work in a real retail environment probably have it rougher with a range of horrible customers day in day out face to face than you guys have to deal with online.
I agree completely that vendors should simply adjust policy when they feel they need to protect themselves from loses. The idea of aiming a policy at a particular group and naming the group is certainly outside the lines of professionalism.
You are right that as online sellers we have less garbage to deal with compared to a brick and mortar. Online is the main way it is done these days so we all need to work together smoothly.
 

MillieLou

Rough_Rock
Joined
Feb 27, 2020
Messages
80
I agree completely that vendors should simply adjust policy when they feel they need to protect themselves from loses. The idea of aiming a policy at a particular group and naming the group is certainly outside the lines of professionalism.
Yep this hits the nail on the head as to why I found it unprofessional.

A simple note on his homepage that additional photos and videos cannot be provided, and that any returns after e.g. 2 will incur a 10% restocking fee, would have done the trick.
 

arkieb1

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
May 11, 2012
Messages
9,574
Yep this hits the nail on the head as to why I found it unprofessional.

A simple note on his homepage that additional photos and videos cannot be provided, and that any returns after e.g. 2 will incur a 10% restocking fee, would have done the trick.
Yes exactly and ALL of this could have been avoided.....

@Dancing Fire - I actually stopped in the middle of it to ask where you were yesterday, it's most unlike you to miss the live @#*show.... we needed a bit of humour to lighten the mood!!!
 

OreoRosies86

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Dec 25, 2012
Messages
3,137
I’ve had people go crazy on LT asking for MULTIPLE videos on $20 tester stones. It’s annoying. Doing it constantly? No way.
 

the_mother_thing

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Mar 2, 2013
Messages
6,149
This is a really sad and unfortunate situation - for all involved ... the vendors, PSers and customers (past, present and future). There are definitely better ways to have addressed this with the ‘offending buyers’ vs. casting a negative net over an entire group of potential customers. I’ve shared with some vendors that I’m on PS, but not because I expect special treatment; rather, more as a “hey, I was referred to you as being a quality vendor” sort of thing.

But, if the vendors involved feel that strongly (negatively) about PS, perhaps they should be removed from the recommended vendor list. I wouldn’t feel comfortable portraying them as ‘trusted‘ when their publicly-stated opinions & policies - regardless of whether they are valid or not - are not supportive of consumer-friendly transactions, given PS is a consumer-focused forum.
 

Arkteia

Ideal_Rock
Premium
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Nov 3, 2009
Messages
7,565
I am here so seldom, that I missed all the drama.

However, lots of forums have very strict rules. Don’t say this, don’t mention that. No politics...no FB...no Reddit or Twitter. For a privately owned forum, PS is unbelievably honest. And unbiased. And it should stay the same.

On the other side. One vendor told me that it would be very easy to ruin a seller’s reputation.

I suck at sales. So it is hard to understand the mentality of a salesman. But... When I came here, there were a few precision cutters, now there are many. Great ones, truly. Brilliant. New names. Some would work closely with jewelers. So I would assume there is a lot of competition in the industry.

In this situation, returning a stone that has been discussed on the PS, and Dan’s prices are competitive, renders it basically half-sellable.

I can’t blame Dan, he is doing what he can to stay in the business and make a living.

I haven’t been buying for a long time, but I personally would not punish him for this disclaimer. If I worked with him him, I’d continue. JMO. Maybe he had a bad day.

I foresee things becoming harder in industry in general. As there are lab-grown diamonds and everyone is into ecology.

I hope PS stays the way it is.
 

Lilith112

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Jun 27, 2019
Messages
616
Whelp....that blew up o_O On one hand, it's his right as a business owner to set his policies as he pleases. But yeesh, that Facebook thread and going back & forth with PS-ers...completely unprofessional on Dan Stair's part.

RE: returns, I'm usually don't do returns for anything, whether it be clothing or gemstones, something which a lot of China-based vendors dislike about me lol. I've had more than a few vendors get snippy with me for asking for lots of pictures; most tell me to just view it in person & return if I don't like it.

Anyways, while I do think it's Dan Stair's right to set his rules, I think he's going about it in the wrong way. The future is digital, so a customer-friendly return policy is key imo. Also, things on the Internet are forever...and if I was a customer and saw this rant, I'd be very turned off by him, PS-er or not.
 

mellowyellowgirl

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
May 17, 2014
Messages
3,612
However, lots of forums have very strict rules. Don’t say this, don’t mention that. No politics...no FB...no Reddit or Twitter. For a privately owned forum, PS is unbelievably honest. And unbiased. And it should stay the same.
PS is incredibly flexible beyond belief. I love how everyone is almost always civilized despite how completely uncensored PS is.

I'm on several other specific hobby related forums and the amount of censorship is insane.

I've received two warnings on a figure skating forum!!!!
 

Lilith112

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Jun 27, 2019
Messages
616
PS is incredibly flexible beyond belief. I love how everyone is almost always civilized despite how completely uncensored PS is.

I'm on several other specific hobby related forums and the amount of censorship is insane.

I've received two warnings on a figure skating forum!!!!
Ohh, let me guess, Goldenskate lol?
 

Lilith112

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Jun 27, 2019
Messages
616
Haha spot on!!!!

@MrsKMB I expressed dislike for a certain coach for perfectly valid reasons. We are talking about a coach with celebrity status here. It wasn't like I was naming and shaming a local business or anything!
Oh wow, small world lol! I haven't been active recently, but I remember members getting v heated over the topic of flutzes lol
 

MollyMalone

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jun 2, 2013
Messages
3,097
This is a really sad and unfortunate situation - for all involved ... the vendors, PSers and customers (past, present and future). There are definitely better ways to have addressed this with the ‘offending buyers’ vs. casting a negative net over an entire group of potential customers. I’ve shared with some vendors that I’m on PS, but not because I expect special treatment; rather, more as a “hey, I was referred to you as being a quality vendor” sort of thing.

But, if the vendors involved feel that strongly (negatively) about PS, perhaps they should be removed from the recommended vendor list. I wouldn’t feel comfortable portraying them as ‘trustedwhen their publicly-stated opinions & policies - regardless of whether they are valid or not - are not supportive of consumer-friendly transactions, given PS is a consumer-focused forum.
Actually, the roster of vendors no longer denominates them as "trusted" or "recommended". Rather, the title is simply List of Vendors for Reference, and the thread itself begins with "These are the list of vendors that some people have had a good experience with. Your experience may not be the same..."
These changes were made back in December 2014. (See posts ## 7-11 in the thread for an example of why one vendor added to the list wasn't "kicked off" even tho' some of us will not do business with her.)
 

voce

Ideal_Rock
Joined
May 13, 2018
Messages
3,406
PS is incredibly flexible beyond belief. I love how everyone is almost always civilized despite how completely uncensored PS is.

I'm on several other specific hobby related forums and the amount of censorship is insane.

I've received two warnings on a figure skating forum!!!!
I'm afraid of Fanyu mob mentality, hence I've not yet ventured onto figure skating forums. If the sport itself has so much drama, I could only imagine the drama on figure skating forums.

Haha spot on!!!!

@MrsKMB I expressed dislike for a certain coach for perfectly valid reasons. We are talking about a coach with celebrity status here. It wasn't like I was naming and shaming a local business or anything!
Ooh, is this the coach who favors Louis Vuitton?
 

strawrose

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
May 24, 2014
Messages
1,019
Haha spot on!!!!

@MrsKMB I expressed dislike for a certain coach for perfectly valid reasons. We are talking about a coach with celebrity status here. It wasn't like I was naming and shaming a local business or anything!
is this a certain coach that forces girls to do quads and throws away anyone older than 16?
 

voce

Ideal_Rock
Joined
May 13, 2018
Messages
3,406
is this a certain coach that forces girls to do quads and throws away anyone older than 16?
Oh, she doesn't "force" girls to do quads. She just gives the stern, disappointed look and withholds her love from those who "aren't working hard enough." :confused2:
 

soberguy

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Mar 25, 2009
Messages
646
I agree with the venders 100%, and have personally witnessed one of the most knowledgeable of them get chased off this forum by negativity from one specific member (who couldn’t afford to purchase anything from him anyway)... there is nothing so unattractive as a person or group that refuses to look at themselves and own their mistakes, apologize, and make a change. The negativity here has been well documented and at every turn, nothing changes. Their observations are not out of blue, many of us have felt the same for years.
 

arkieb1

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
May 11, 2012
Messages
9,574
I agree with the venders 100%, and have personally witnessed one of the most knowledgeable of them get chased off this forum by negativity from one specific member (who couldn’t afford to purchase anything from him anyway)... there is nothing so unattractive as a person or group that refuses to look at themselves and own their mistakes, apologize, and make a change. The negativity here has been well documented and at every turn, nothing changes. Their observations are not out of blue, many of us have felt the same for years.
I've had a well known coloured stone vendor who lives in the US (not in the list of vendors here) not fully disclose the level of inclusions in a sapphire that I paid thousands of dollars for, I sent the stone back to him, he acknowledged that he got it back and that he's spent the money buying other stones. I NEVER got the money or anything else back again.

There are good and bad PSers and good and bad vendors just as there are good and bad people out in the real population. I'm sorry you and others feel that way, I have no issue with vendors putting policies in place to guard against being messed around, but putting unprofessional rants on any public forum against any customer, or group of customers is just as immature and quite frankly demonstrates a level of unprofessionalism no better than the customers you are all complaining about.
 

chrono

Super_Ideal_Rock
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Apr 22, 2004
Messages
37,446
PS has helped me indirectly in the past when a vendor could not afford to refund me my purchase because he has already spent my money (a few thousand) buying other stones. I never outed the vendor since we were able to work out a repayment agreement and fortunately, I received my money back a year later.

There are good and not so good vendors.
There are good and not so good PSers.
I have no wish to tar both parties with a broad brush nor do I wish to single out anyone.

I harbour no ill feelings for things said and done in the past. Personally, I do my best not to dwell on such things and move on.

I have made many good friends here, both posters and vendors. I have also learned a lot and try to change my tone and posting style to reflect my CS growth and understanding as much as possible.
 

lovedogs

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jul 31, 2014
Messages
10,983
I agree with the venders 100%, and have personally witnessed one of the most knowledgeable of them get chased off this forum by negativity from one specific member (who couldn’t afford to purchase anything from him anyway)... there is nothing so unattractive as a person or group that refuses to look at themselves and own their mistakes, apologize, and make a change. The negativity here has been well documented and at every turn, nothing changes. Their observations are not out of blue, many of us have felt the same for years.
I really disagree with this characterization of PS.
 

MillieLou

Rough_Rock
Joined
Feb 27, 2020
Messages
80
OK I'm a bit worried now by the two posts above of a vendor/vendors (presumably with a refund policy) not refunding money for a returned stone :???:How will I know who to avoid if names aren't named...?
 

arkieb1

Ideal_Rock
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May 11, 2012
Messages
9,574
@soberguy - why on earth do you need to write;

"Who couldn't afford to purchase anything from him anyway"?

Do you think that is an appropriate comment to make?

You guys think it's O.K to write "oh but we are uneducated", "we are just little vendors", and complain that PSers are "middle class women" Jim thinks it's O.K to make a sexual comment yet when I say one back (I guess if I was male perhaps it would have been less offensive to him) then he's suddenly outraged.

Why is the amount of money PSers do and don't have, and their gender and education level versus the vendors class backgroud and education level even an issue? Just like vendors, PSers come from ALL walks of life. Quite frankly making assumptions and openly writing them, just demonstrates an in inherent level of bias a few of you male vendors seem to be carrying against PSers.....
 
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Batgirl76

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Aug 7, 2018
Messages
250
People form biases all the time without hard statistics. Regarding wealth, when PSers talk about forgetting their 2 carat studs “at their other house” it’s easy to forget that other PSer’s might be struggling to buy a .5 carat engagement ring. Overall though, I’m guessing the median income/net worth of a PSer is far above the national median. At least among the frequent posters. That can breed resentment.

And most men generally don’t like to be ordered around or questioned by women. I’ve learned that the hard way with my husband. And he considers himself an artist, as I’m sure many of the gem cutters do. If you criticize his art, he takes it VERY personally. So there’s that.
 

Lilith112

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Jun 27, 2019
Messages
616
Oh, she doesn't "force" girls to do quads. She just gives the stern, disappointed look and withholds her love from those who "aren't working hard enough." :confused2:
See, this is why I can't get into certain skaters....who knows whether or not they'll still be competing in.a few years. I miss the Yuna-Mao rivalry at times lol (though not the fan wars/crazy nationalism)
 

arkieb1

Ideal_Rock
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May 11, 2012
Messages
9,574
People form biases all the time without hard statistics. Regarding wealth, when PSers talk about forgetting their 2 carat studs “at their other house” it’s easy to forget that other PSer’s might be struggling to buy a .5 carat engagement ring. Overall though, I’m guessing the median income/net worth of a PSer is far above the national median. At least among the frequent posters. That can breed resentment.

And most men generally don’t like to be ordered around or questioned by women. I’ve learned that the hard way with my husband. And he considers himself an artist, as I’m sure many of the gem cutters do. If you criticize his art, he takes it VERY personally. So there’s that.
PS is a mix of people from a mix of backgrounds, yes some PSers have enough money to have expensive jewellery - this is after all a jewellery and gemstone forum.... I like looking at all jewellery and gemstones people have irrespective of how much they cost.

My poor white working class father came to this country with nothing, worked hard and paid for some (I paid for the rest) of my University education, my husband (also from a working class family) and I worked bloody hard for years for everything we own. So When other PSers and anyone else including vendors start throwing a public pity party that I or anyone else here am now middle class or that one person has more money and a better education than they do, I have little to no tolerance for that.

If people were born with money, I say good for them, if you live your life jealous of others wealth and personal circumstances then that says far more about you than it does about them. If you come to a jewellery and gemstone forum and have to compare yourself or feel resentment, they you should leave the forum...

We are on a forum that gives opinions about gemstones and diamonds, and jewellery, if some vendors do not like the opinions given here about their items then they need to grow a tougher skin. As I've said a number of times my sister in law and in laws own two different shops and work in the trade and they put up with, as far as I can see, far nastier stuff on a day to day basis from non PSers than many online vendors have to, including the ones that are doing the most complaining. So again, I have little to no sympathy for their unacceptable, unprofessional online meltdowns.

We all have personal stuff we have to deal with, we all have bad days, it doesn't excuse what equates to unprofessional, rude, jealous, classist, misogynistic rants online.
 
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Batgirl76

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Aug 7, 2018
Messages
250
That’s all true, but it seems a small percentage of PSer’s not only show off their jewelry (which is a large part of what PS is for, of course), but also seem to flaunt their wealth in other unnecessary ways. Vendors read this, and PSers from other backgrounds, and it does leave a bad taste. It’s human nature.
 
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