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Dan Stair doesn't want PSers?!

Ella

Brilliant_Rock
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Folks, we are working our way through this thread trying to catch all the issues. Please refrain from quoting problematic posts and reposting from other websites. Keep the comments clean and use only family-friendly language. Thank you for your cooperation as we deal with threads like this that are firmly in the gray area of our rules.
 

CSpan

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Mar 7, 2016
Messages
554
I'm just a little taken back at the negativity posted about a generalized group and specific people in general. @T L I greatly appreciate your advice and have learned very quickly why some stones wouldn't be a good choice for me-from a variety of posters. I have also said "thankyouverymuch" and plodded on with stones (CS and diamonds) that are quite literally flawed, because they spoke to me. An informed consumer, even a lame newbie like myself, can take advice and apply it appropriately to their own situations. As many posters have said, this is buying online, you can see it with your own eyes, you can't assess and compare like in a store, we aren't talking toothpaste and toliet paper. Plus, gemstones and jewelry are expensive purchases that people don't make regularly. I don't care if they cost $75 or $75,000, both amounts are "expensive" to someone.

I don't think it is good sense to bash any former, current, or future customers if you sell things directly to consumers, especially to online consumers. And certainly not on a public webpage. If you are frustrated take it to a private forums, there is a reason so many private encrypted chat rooms exist. Plus, the internet is indexed and this sort of thing is just going to come up again and again in searches.

On the other hand I suppose this could drive traffic to PS to see what sort of witchcraft is going on here.
 

Pinkmartini87

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Apr 10, 2017
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699
“Of this I am certain, that if we open a quarrel between the past and the present, we shall find that we have lost the future.” -Winston Churchill

Having been a PS member for only a few years, I’m immensely grateful for the knowledge and friendships I’ve gained here. The spirit of the forum, at least to me, appears to derive from a sincere joy of collecting/appreciating beauty, as well an incredibly altruistic desire to take the time (and often lots of time) to help strangers online navigate unfamiliar obstacles.

How often otherwise in this fast-paced society do we find these acts of kindness?

I hope we continue to be kind to one another and find joy in our mutual passions.
 

arkieb1

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Where's Kenny and DF
Folks, we are working our way through this thread trying to catch all the issues. Please refrain from quoting problematic posts and reposting from other websites. Keep the comments clean and use only family-friendly language. Thank you for your cooperation as we deal with threads like this that are firmly in the gray area of our rules.
I would suggest that you remove or blank out the names of the people in the posts I cut and pasted from facebook for everyone accept Dan and Jim, that way everyone's privacy is respected, I'm sorry I didn't think to do that myself.

My in laws have worked in retail in the trade for 45+ years and they have NEVER posted about rude customers on a public forum in that time. Privately, yes they will say oh I got robbed today by this person and I gave the video footage to police, or they will state that customer was a complete PITA but they have never vented their frustrations in such a way that they have to do it on a public forum.

They too are working class little retailers so when vendors post oh we aren't middle class, oh we are small and in business for ourselves, yes, so is a significant % of small retailers. Cry me a river, vendors that want PSers business but then bitch about PSers could use some of the old saying the customer is always right..... and that includes customers that are educated, fussy PSers.
 
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kenny

Super_Ideal_Rock
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Where's Kenny and DF ...
Tonight DF is at a $500,000-A-Plate hellraiser for tRump called "Plates for Hate", but your sweet wonderful Kenny is right here. :wavey:

Why do you ask? :confused:
Are you looking for shallow mindless humor from the peanut gallery, or just an unsupported drive by posting?
 
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deorwine

Shiny_Rock
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May 5, 2005
Messages
321
I mean... I have seen some threads on this group go like this:
Newbie: What do you guys think of this stone?
Experienced posters: It's grey. [Or brown, depending on what kind of stone it is.] Grey grey grey, ick. I definitely wouldn't buy it.
Newbie: Oh.

(Well, okay, I may not actually have seen anyone say "ick," but that's definitely implied.)

Part of the problem is that the experienced poster means "I, an experienced PSer who already owns a number of gems and is highly picky about color and cut, would not buy it," but it can come across as "YOU definitely should not buy it," which is often less helpful.

I think to be the most helpful, one should not just point out all the flaws and bad things about a stone, but the good things as well, and ask a) what the poster wants out of a stone b) talk about the value for price, and maybe c) situate the stone in context of not just the top of the top. Some of these stones that I see getting ragged on are quite pleasant; sure, maybe they are not "vivid saturation," maybe they are just "medium saturation" and there is some grey in it, and yes, maybe that particular PS poster wouldn't buy it, and heck, maybe I wouldn't either, but not everyone needs or is willing to fork out the money for a vivid top-of-the-line gem, especially these days when those kinds of stones are going for $$$.

which reminds me that the other thing I see (though not as often):

Newbie: What do you guys think of this stone for this price?
Experienced posters: Ugh, for that much?? Look at my better stone that I got for half as much as you're proposing to pay!

Which... if this is accompanied by a reference to other currently-for-sale better-priced stones, is mostly fine -- although even then not totally, as there are some vendors where (as I've said in other comments) you are paying partially for curation and customer service. But a couple of times I've seen this happen without that sort of current-for-sale grounding, and... I feel like many experienced PSers have been collecting for a long time and are great at snatching up deals. And yes, you were looking for the perfect gem for two years and you managed to snatch up a great deal because you were watching all the vendors like a hawk, but most people aren't necessarily going to do that (and if they did, they still wouldn't ALL be able to get the deals!) Not to mention that the prices of gems have gone up a LOT lately!

I think it's still useful to point out where the gem stands (is it vivid or medium or low saturation?) and whether it's a decent value for what it is, and that kind of thing. And of course we should always point out things like treatments, how they affect price, lab reports, etc. But sometimes I do feel like we PSers could be a little gentler and provide a little more context.

(And obviously #notallpsers -- there are many many posts that are NOT like that! I'm just saying that I do see those kinds of posts sometimes, and I can see how it would annoy a vendor --I'm not even a vendor and they make me a little antsy.)
 

Lee Little

Shiny_Rock
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Greetings!
I had the same problem with folks wanting extra pictures so I made a multiple-use listing for them to buy for $10 to get one of the following: 1.) four additional pictures 2.) layaway an item 3.) Make a payment or 4.) Send us a tip! Now we no longer mind pulling out the item and taking the extra pictures.
Though we have had no real concerns about returns ourselves, I would suggest that vendors that are getting excessive returns from a particular group to have a return policy that includes a re-stocking fee to cover Pay Pal loses and minor expenses required to sell online. I am not sure how much one would ask for a re-stocking fee, perhaps a percentage? Perhaps a flat fee? I hate to make a re-stocking fee as it would drive off some customers whether they ever returned an item or not since it sounds 'unfriendly'. Best regards, Lee
 

lovedogs

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11,112
Greetings!
I had the same problem with folks wanting extra pictures so I made a multiple-use listing for them to buy for $10 to get one of the following: 1.) four additional pictures 2.) layaway an item 3.) Make a payment or 4.) Send us a tip! Now we no longer mind pulling out the item and taking the extra pictures.
Though we have had no real concerns about returns ourselves, I would suggest that vendors that are getting excessive returns from a particular group to have a return policy that includes a re-stocking fee to cover Pay Pal loses and minor expenses required to sell online. I am not sure how much one would ask for a re-stocking fee, perhaps a percentage? Perhaps a flat fee? I hate to make a re-stocking fee as it would drive off some customers whether they ever returned an item or not since it sounds 'unfriendly'. Best regards, Lee
I really like this idea!
 

T L

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I mean... I have seen some threads on this group go like this:
Newbie: What do you guys think of this stone?
Experienced posters: It's grey. [Or brown, depending on what kind of stone it is.] Grey grey grey, ick. I definitely wouldn't buy it.
Newbie: Oh.

(Well, okay, I may not actually have seen anyone say "ick," but that's definitely implied.)

Part of the problem is that the experienced poster means "I, an experienced PSer who already owns a number of gems and is highly picky about color and cut, would not buy it," but it can come across as "YOU definitely should not buy it," which is often less helpful.

I think to be the most helpful, one should not just point out all the flaws and bad things about a stone, but the good things as well, and ask a) what the poster wants out of a stone b) talk about the value for price, and maybe c) situate the stone in context of not just the top of the top. Some of these stones that I see getting ragged on are quite pleasant; sure, maybe they are not "vivid saturation," maybe they are just "medium saturation" and there is some grey in it, and yes, maybe that particular PS poster wouldn't buy it, and heck, maybe I wouldn't either, but not everyone needs or is willing to fork out the money for a vivid top-of-the-line gem, especially these days when those kinds of stones are going for $$$.

which reminds me that the other thing I see (though not as often):

Newbie: What do you guys think of this stone for this price?
Experienced posters: Ugh, for that much?? Look at my better stone that I got for half as much as you're proposing to pay!

Which... if this is accompanied by a reference to other currently-for-sale better-priced stones, is mostly fine -- although even then not totally, as there are some vendors where (as I've said in other comments) you are paying partially for curation and customer service. But a couple of times I've seen this happen without that sort of current-for-sale grounding, and... I feel like many experienced PSers have been collecting for a long time and are great at snatching up deals. And yes, you were looking for the perfect gem for two years and you managed to snatch up a great deal because you were watching all the vendors like a hawk, but most people aren't necessarily going to do that (and if they did, they still wouldn't ALL be able to get the deals!) Not to mention that the prices of gems have gone up a LOT lately!

I think it's still useful to point out where the gem stands (is it vivid or medium or low saturation?) and whether it's a decent value for what it is, and that kind of thing. And of course we should always point out things like treatments, how they affect price, lab reports, etc. But sometimes I do feel like we PSers could be a little gentler and provide a little more context.

(And obviously #notallpsers -- there are many many posts that are NOT like that! I'm just saying that I do see those kinds of posts sometimes, and I can see how it would annoy a vendor --I'm not even a vendor and they make me a little antsy.)
Thank you for the feedback. On a positive note, I just wanted to post this thread as a fabulous example of how many of us collectively helped a consumer make an educated choice on some emeralds. These were not top quality emeralds either, albeit lovely and at a fair price. The OP learned a great deal and I personally was very impressed at how she helped other people with their own emerald decisions.


Yes, the brown and gray terminology get spewed out quite a bit, but if I speak for myself, I mention it on gems that are typically easier to find in better color. I would also mention brown or gray if someone is spending $$$$$ and wants what they’re paying for. If I sounded nasty or harsh, I didn’t mean to. I think the written word can come off misconstrued vs verbal communication.
 

arkieb1

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Tonight DF is at a $500,000-A-Plate hellraiser for tRump called "Plates for Hate", but your sweet wonderful Kenny is right here. :wavey:

Why do you ask? :confused:
Are you looking for shallow mindless humor from the peanut gallery, or just an unsupported drive by posting?
No..... I thought I was about to get a time out and you and DF were going to miss it!!! :lol::lol::lol::lol: DF usually appears a day later and asks what happened so I thought he should be witness to the @#$ery firsthand.

@Lee Little - that's exactly it, do what works for you and if the people that are annoying vendors that much don't like it they can take their business elsewhere. Seriously you are all grown men, find solutions that work for you, come here and ask us for solutions that work for everyone, instead of spewing diatribes of hatred against all PSers on public forums.
 
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mellowyellowgirl

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You guys are still TOTALLY tame compared to what I witnessed on Twitter today :lol: (completely non PS or gem related).
 

Lee Little

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I imagine he will stop the singling out of PS members once he cools down. No way a group of forum members should be lumped together as we are all different. I would be surprised if he restricted my ability to return yet I am technically a PS member, eh? Business policies should apply equally to all.
 

missy

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I feel bad for Daniel Stair (and the other vendors who dislike PS and PSers) because obviously someone or a few PSers have pushed him over the edge and he momentarily lost it. The problem is once you write something it is there forever. And I don't know who Jim McCormick is but reading his words he seems bitter towards PS/PSers. :/ Maybe with a valid reason but why let it get to that point?

The forum is run like a dictatorship from both its administrators to the hierarchy (pack mentality) of the three or four members who rule the roost there. These members, which some are very negative, not to mention egos larger than the circumference of the earth, have the final say, & many of the good members, & there are many, are too intimidated to cross the queens of Pricescope.
Not being a colored gem person I am not familiar with the vendors or any of the dramatic backstory. Yes, maybe (some) PSers are a high maintenance bunch (generalization) I think most of us are very nice and it could be a few difficult people giving us a bad reputation. However, I always say it is none of my business what others think of me and truly I believe that.

Hopefully moving forward there can be healing and movement in the right direction and more power to any vendor who doesn't want to deal with a specific customer. That is their right. Just as it is the right of a customer to choose the vendor with whom they want to work. Not everyone is a fit for everyone.

And when one is in business for oneself it can be challenging in ways we cannot even imagine. Dealing with people is challenging generally. Dealing with people who know exactly what they want and are vocal about it can be even more challenging though my feeling is if done with respect and politely it should be good. Though as a vendor I imagine wanting an easy sale is understandable and I guess PS as a whole isn't as easy a sale as some...

I think it is good to air grievances and just wish the vendors would come here and share their thoughts with us so we could have a healthy discourse. It would be helpful I think for all to have it out in the open vs posting on their FB page bashing PS (and PSers) because deep down most people here IMO are decent and nice as I am guessing most vendors are too. Despite some of the nasty words on both sides. It is easy for words to get out of hand.

And also suppressing things for a long time (which is my interpretation from reading what some of the vendors wrote) makes it easier to blow up when the well overflows if you kwim. Rather just airing grievances as they happen is generally healthier and a way to move forward in a positive direction.


From reading his posts it seems like PS has cost him profit and everyone deserves to make a living. I definitely feel for him there. Maybe he has to be tougher with some PSers and maybe his policies do need to change.

I can see it from both sides. Just feel like it could have been handled better and it isn't too late IMO.
 

Batgirl76

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Aug 7, 2018
Messages
252
Well, Gene’s comment of a few months ago (“I don’t know how all of you ladies can afford the expensive settings you buy” - paraphrased) seems pretty tame and innocent by comparison to all of this.
 

MissSarah

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Mar 13, 2014
Messages
167
Well, Gene’s comment of a few months ago (“I don’t know how all of you ladies can afford the expensive settings you buy” - paraphrased) seems pretty tame and innocent by comparison to all of this.
Lol. I've wondered about the settings too, but everyone's in their own bracket.

Gotta say- most of my stuff is in silver or vintage 10k unless it was a gift. Lord know I better catalog my stuff; I'd hate for my stone collection to be discarded as junk because of the cheapo settings when I'm dead.
 

Rfisher

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Not speaking for JM, nor sticking up for him-
But I imagine most of his dislike for PS ‘authority’ is from before the ownership change, and there’s no moving on and past that for him.



I hope Dan never goes into the padparadscha business! :lol-2:
Sometimes Spinels can have crazy color combinations like 'purplish orange' which might stir things up about colors.
Maybe not a person, I think it was the idea of listing a pile of odd color Spinels that tipped him.
Oh! I can imagine :lol:
 
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NKOTB

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A side note about LT and its background...it was actually created due to a discussion of a relatively small group of PSers in a fb group. At the time, DB had started charging for listings, and there was thought that an alternate similar site where we could sell/buy stuff would be great (I forget when this was relative to the Preloved page here, but it was a place we could personally contact each other). One of the members of the group had a husband in IT, she said he’d be able to help. People threw out name suggestions and one stuck. It started as a fairly intimate, PS- member-focused site. However, as more and more trade members (that had other websites or means of selling/advertising) started posting multiple items, the vibe changed, hence the frustration. It got so if you listed something, it would be buried in the second or third page (where few people look) within hours. So no, it is not “PS-owned”, and obviously the web is worldwide and as the word of the site spread, it evolved beyond its original intention - this was/is just disappointing for some.

In terms of stating one’s “status” as a PSer... I don’t think the intention is usually arrogance. Amongst the non-trade members, it has often helped build implicit trust. I have had many smooth transactions buying/selling/trading with other members, often with different approaches than might be taken with members of the general public. I have made actual real life friends through this forum, for which I am grateful. In terms of telling CS vendors, it likely stems from a time when some vendors gave discounts, as we are often repeat customers (in a good way). On the diamond side, I’ll admit that when I read “PS quality” (e.g. in mêlée or bands), I know that means high quality, because yes, we can be a picky bunch. We can also be loyal, supportive, generous, helpful, and many other good qualities.
 

sydneyatl

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Apr 11, 2015
Messages
119
Greetings!
I had the same problem with folks wanting extra pictures so I made a multiple-use listing for them to buy for $10 to get one of the following: 1.) four additional pictures 2.) layaway an item 3.) Make a payment or 4.) Send us a tip! Now we no longer mind pulling out the item and taking the extra pictures.
I think this is a fantastic idea and as a consumer would have no issue with it.
 

MillieLou

Rough_Rock
Joined
Feb 27, 2020
Messages
86
Thanks all. This has helped to make up my mind who to avoid - I like my transactions professional and drama-free :)

Thanks for the tip on Diamonds by Lauren Whitewave - I've seen just the sort of sapphire I am looking for there. Will start a new thread.
 

MidModMin

Rough_Rock
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Aug 7, 2017
Messages
55
Well, this has been an interesting discussion. I have sympathy for both sides:

• On the consumer/PS side, buying colored gemstones online is not like most other products online, really. Colored gems are expensive, completely non-standardized items. It can be difficult to buy gems online and there is little way to get additional information about each without asking for additional photos, videos, or information, or to seek feedback from others to help "interpret" product photographs. Unlike online mattresses or mass-produced clothes, you can't pop down to to the local store to see them in person or get feedback from others who have bought the same model. Each gem is unique, with optical properties that might not translate well to photo/video, so caution is warranted.

While this whole conversation could be chalked up to being a "first-world problem," I also bristle a bit at the description of all PSers as "upper-class women." There are people on this board specifically because they don't have a lot of money, have been saving up their ducats for years, and are making once-in-a-lifetime (or once-in-a-decade) purchases. When you are not wealthy, spending a lot of money on something and being unhappy with it (either because it was not what was expected, return policies were strict/non-existent, or your were ripped-off) is a big blow, because there are no do-overs. That's it. You don't get to buy something that will make you happier, because you can't afford to. Or you will need to save up for years and years for something else – hope you don't get ripped-off again then, either.

There are times when I wish some PSers could be more empathetic to this situation (better helping people find the best value for their unique budgets and needs, as opposed to always pushing them towards the "elite top" stones they can't afford), but overall, one of the best things about this site is that those with more experience with gems can give helpful feedback, saving someone from making a big mistake on their once-in-a-lifetime purchase. I always think this when I see posts come in from people buying engagement rings: their cluelessness about gemstones, coupled with their anxiety to buy the best ring possible, can be almost palpable. Some posters put in a lot of effort to help these people get the best stone they can for their budget, and I think that is a big kindness, something the board does well.

• On the Dan Stair/gemcutter side, I do think PSers should remember that many of the recommended vendors are small business. Small businesses are the backbone of this country and it is not easy to run one. My husband is a small business owner and when I think of the hours per week he works, plus some of the emails he's gotten from customers with requests that aren't just inappropriate, but couched in truly abusive language, I have a lot of sympathy for Dan. On top of small margins and needing to compete against large corporations, which is becoming increasingly difficult to do for a variety of reasons, running a small business is hard. Dan Stair is also a gem cutter – I wouldn't be surprised if he sees himself more as a craftsman than a retailer, and I wouldn't be surprised if he would rather focus more on his gemcutting craftsmanship than the retail components of his business. He doesn't just resell gems that other people cut, he cuts them himself, and that may be what his he wants his business plan to focus on.

I've never purchased a stone from Dan before, but even before this, his return policies made me wary – he had different policies for new and repeat customers, and he's stated his restocking fee is pretty much up to his discretion. I never felt I could buy something from him unless I knew there was no way I'd ever return it, because his policies seemed a bit arbitrary and I wouldn't know what to expect. I've actually never returned a stone I've bought, but I like clearly knowing what my options are, as gemstones are a risky purchase. I sympathize as to why he's had his policies as they are, but I think they could be better crafted. Other vendors set a restocking fee, or don't provide additional photos for stones under a certain price, or might charge for additional photos, which, when applied universally, all seems acceptable. His new policy feels more like a rant than a true policy, but for the reasons stated above, I can understand how he may have gotten there, emotionally.


Both sides could be kinder and more understanding in their language. For the vendors, I'd gently remind them that what is on the internet stays on the internet, and angrily ranting about customers online may not be the best business policy. But I also think kindness goes both ways, especially when one is dealing with sole-proprietor small businesses. Harsh, unkind criticism against such a small business may not just feel like "business feedback," but a personal insult to the proprietor.

I do think this conversation has taken a turn for the better and there is a more constructive back-and-forth going on, which is nice to see.

These are just my 2 cents, and I am neither an expert gemstone buyer nor a gem cutter. I really do think this has been an interesting conversation.
 
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LisaRN

Ideal_Rock
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I have never bought from Dan but have admired his gems and cutting skills. I think he has the right to choose who he would like to sell to and I do not fault him that. Some of the conversation that was re-posted shows a side that we probably all have when we are angry. In his case, it is now immortalized on the Internet.
 

Arcadian

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Apparently I miss a lot of stuff when I sleep... Like...wtf?

So I've said this before and will say it again. The way I judge a vendor is how they act when things go south. That to me matters. It makes the difference of me purchasing from them or not. This has been interesting.
 

lilmosun

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As I see it, the pros and cons of PS are no different than any other form of social media today. It can educate but also set unrealistic expectations for some...and at times, misinform. Likewise, there are many differing personalities/preferences and one needs to take many of the opinions in context of what is said, who is saying it and one's own preferences. The problem is that some come here assuming that most here are "experts" and that answers are more definitive than they usually can be when it comes to purchasing colored stones. Completely uninformed when I joined, it took awhile for me to trust my own judgement/opinions after joining PS. But at the end of the day, I've learned it's about what I love and what I am willing to pay for it...and yes, I've made purchases that I love but wouldn't or didn't pass muster with some here. The important thing is my purchase are more informed and that's all because of PS. While I do think some opinions here come across as more fact than opinion, I take it as posting style more than intent...and I put no more credence on any individual opinions than I do when reading book reviews on Amazon or a restaurant review on Yelp (information to be taken in context).

That being said, dealing with social media is a reality of doing business in today's world for good and for bad. I'd argue that many of these vendors wouldn't be where they are today without social media forums. I know that all of my on-line jewelry purchases even if on FB/Instragram/Etsy happened because I found PS. I also know that my jewelry spend has exploded because of PS :)

What troubles me the most is the blanket anger with which some sellers are attacking this community as a whole (not just on FB but reportly in private vendor forums/conversations). There are difficult customers everywhere perhaps PS is just more noticeable as there aren't many public consumer forums with much of a CS presence. While I understand their frustration, I will have difficulty working with any vendor whom I fear too many questions or categorization might cause such outright anger. They need to take a step back because I fear it deters not just business from PSers but others.
 

arkieb1

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@Lee Little - I don't see why other vendors can't do the same thing for all customers that might come along and annoy them. Things like charging a small fee for extra photos for their time, things like a restocking fee if they return multiple stones, things like a clear explanation of the buyer paying all shipping costs if they return anything. If customers return stuff multiple times and/or are really difficult, tell them you no longer want to do business with them.

If everyone sat down rationally and dealt with the problems, instead of targeting any specific group of people you could put in place enough policies to weed out the people that annoy you without having to ban all PSers or have rules specifically aimed at PSers (have the same thing for all customers) or any other group.

My sister in law, who is a hard working, working class tiny 58 year old woman also (apart from my in laws) owns a rock, crystal, gemstone, mineral and fossil shop and she had a guy go in there while she was on her own, steal something of a reasonable value and when she said something as he was leaving the shop, he threatened to hurt her.

Garry has had a pack of youths with knives in his store threaten his staff and hold someone at knifepoint, during a gang robbery. So seriously if all online retailers have to worry about is a pack of "middle class PS women" (I'm quoting the F/B rant) and make up excuses like "I'm not educated", "I'm a small business owner", "I'm one person who works hard and am doing my best" and so on, as a justification for completely unacceptable unprofessional rants on a public online domain perhaps they need to reflect that small business owners and staff that work in a real retail environment probably have it rougher with a range of horrible customers day in day out face to face than you guys have to deal with online.
 
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Arcadian

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Lol. I've wondered about the settings too, but everyone's in their own bracket.

Gotta say- most of my stuff is in silver or vintage 10k unless it was a gift. Lord know I better catalog my stuff; I'd hate for my stone collection to be discarded as junk because of the cheapo settings when I'm dead.
Well years ago gold was pretty cheap, so you could get a decent 14/18K gold setting for not too much. Once gold shot up, some of us (me included) cooled our jets I make a decent living but I have people to pay these days. And I went through the market crash of 2008 just like everyone else too. it was rough.

I'm just sad they decided to have their go at certain people like that. @TL is someone I respect highly. We had our debates and thats all good because I appreciate her wealth of knowledge. Its way more than mine thats for sure! Personally I love good banter and back and forth when its done with respect. You learn a hell of a lot that way.

And, why yes, this is a consumer board. if asked, I will say what I think, I will always try to help another person if I can and if I'm smart enough, that won't change for me.

Done with this thread. @arkieb1 thanks friend, that was an eye opener.
 
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