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Dan Stair doesn't want PSers?!

Arcadian

Ideal_Rock
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Sep 17, 2008
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6,806
Well, thats his choice. I have to admit, I do wonder who sent him over the edge.
 

MrsKMB

Brilliant_Rock
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Dec 16, 2017
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553
It appears "we" have upset several sellers. I can see how. It's just too bad that PS as a whole is getting such a bad reputation. It doesn't surprise me, given what I've read over the years. I mean, really, we're just people and so are they. We need to get over ourselves.
 

Polabowla

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Nov 15, 2019
Messages
259
Interesting because wasn't there a thread recently (I think by mrs b?) who had a similar issue when looking to buy a sapphire?
Ppl were a lot more critical of the vendor then; so why the difference now?
Just curious
 

mellowyellowgirl

Ideal_Rock
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May 17, 2014
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3,119
Interesting because wasn't there a thread recently (I think by mrs b?) who had a similar issue when looking to buy a sapphire?
Ppl were a lot more critical of the vendor then; so why the difference now?
Just curious
I can't recall but I think the other vendor was meeting up with a PSer and then made the comment. So that vendor was still doing businesses with PSers, bit weird as to why he was dissing PSers just as he was about to do business with one. That may have garnered more of a reaction.

I personally have never bought from Dan Stair, no idea who he is. From the various threads and posts I see on here sometimes I can see why a vendor would be driven to the edge and just be DONE with trying to sell to certain individuals. I can totally understand being over it and weeding out anyone you don't want to deal with. Anyone who balks at his comments won't buy from him and the more easy going people who don't mind will continue to buy.

I sell second hand books that my son has read. Retail is like $10 a book brand new and I usually sell the books for about $4 after my son has read them. I list the books as in "Good" condition. If I get questions about page quality etc I just don't sell to that person. Anyone who bothers to ask that kind of question is likely to be problematic imo and not someone I want to deal with. There are plenty of people who will just buy no questions asked and considering it is already a dirt cheap book I do not have time to field pedantic questions.
 

LilAlex

Shiny_Rock
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Mar 3, 2018
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217
This is so silly and just a way to bad-mouth PS. He has absolutely no way to know who is on this forum -- just like the rest of us have no idea.

I think he does not want PSers outing themselves and threatening to go public with their dissatisfaction.

"Please, no knowledgeable customers!"
 

mellowyellowgirl

Ideal_Rock
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3,119
This is so silly and just a way to bad-mouth PS. He has absolutely no way to know who is on this forum -- just like the rest of us have no idea.

I think he does not want PSers outing themselves and threatening to go public with their dissatisfaction.

"Please, no knowledgeable customers!"
I think it's to put off certain people from buying and making enquires in the first place.

You'd have to be pretty crazy to read this post and then buy 5 gems from him with the intention to return.
 

dk168

Ideal_Rock
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Jul 7, 2013
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5,363
I can appreciate the need to be safe when spending a lot of money on a big ticket item.
However, IMHO, the amount of extra requests should be relative to the overall price of the item.
As I am in UK and import nearly all the jewellery I buy, I treat them as one way purchases as the return process is a pain.
The bigger ticket CSs are custom pieces usually from a cutter with a restock fee that I am fine with as I don't have the intention of returning anything.
There are those consumers who may be knowledgeable, however, they may also be very demanding while not knowing what they really want, and may be indecisive.
They would drive me nuts if I were a seller.
As for buying an used items, my own personal sentiment is that there is always an element of risk involved. If peeps want minimal or no risk with good aftersale guarantees, then they should buy new and be prepared to pay for such privilege.

DK :))
 

qubitasaurus

Brilliant_Rock
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Dec 18, 2014
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1,014
Interesting because wasn't there a thread recently (I think by mrs b?) who had a similar issue when looking to buy a sapphire?
Ppl were a lot more critical of the vendor then; so why the difference now?
Just curious
I actually am not sure what caused this difference. But one of the contributing factors might be that one vendor sells many items in the 5 k/10 k/20 k/30 k kind of price bracket (I just tried to check this info and while I wasnt that successful, at finding the page I was looking for I noticed they had things like lab grown stones for > 1k) and the other seems to sell a lot of stuff for ~$150.

Obviously that's a gross generalization, drawn from the price tags on a couple of pretty stones I clicked on.

But I think maybe the level of customer service, expected of the two may be a little different. Itd be hard to make ends meet if you sold stuff for $150 each, had to cover the cost of the rough, time cutting and photographing and then had people return it 5 times out of 6 for instance. Which honestly would not surprise me with a spinel, as they're so finicky.

My initial response was that this should be part of the business model -- as in you should be expecting returns (since it's impossible to buy gems online as a consumer and get it right 100% of the time). But the prices would probably need to be raised to deal with that. I also wonder If people have been buying gems from him and comparing them to other stones on here (typically most stones here are way out of that price 100-300 price bracket) and then returning as a result. If I was the vendor this would also make me pissed, as there's no way to win -- a $150 will not compare well to a $1500 stone.
 

dk168

Ideal_Rock
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5,363
My way of purchasing a Mahenge Spinel recently:

Saw a group pic of roughs with colours that popped at me, and I made a casual enquiry about them. Agreed on the colour and cutting that I would like, and was provided a pic of 2 roughs within my price range to choose from, sales agreed and deposit paid to secure the rough.
Easy!

DK :bigsmile:
 

Anne111

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Nov 30, 2017
Messages
381
He certainly got himself some extra traffic with this.
Not buying traffic.
As others said, two sides to the story.
The owners of PS themselves should take notice though, if quality sellers boycott the place in tranches it would be bad for business.
Just a weak signal to watch out for.
 

chrono

Super_Ideal_Rock
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Apr 22, 2004
Messages
37,193
As I used to be one of those who helped maintain the List of Vendors for Reference, I'd like to ask whether there should be a notation of caution regarding his new policy for PS members? We are after all, sort of helping generate some sort of traffic there with the link to his website (although it has apparently been negative lately).
 

missy

Super_Ideal_Rock
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Jun 8, 2008
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31,399
I am not familiar with him or his gems though I have heard his name from PSers so am familiar with the name. I probably should not comment since I do not deal with him but from my outside perspective this does not make him (IMO) look good.

I consider it unprofessional behavior to single out PS and PSers. If he wanted to make changes to his policy by all means do so. But do it across the board. And just refuse to take additional pics. No need for the admonishment given to PSers. Other vendors handle similar situations in a more professional manner. It is possible. And smart to do so. I realize PSers can be difficult but a smart vendor can handle it.

Dan Stair's behavior IMO is not too savvy. He could have dealt with this in a more professional private manner. Feels like he is trying to prove a point. He can be the nicest most wonderful person (IDK just saying as an example) but the fact that he is behaving like this makes me SMH.

PS made him popular and now he is biting/looking the proverbial gift horse in the mouth or however that saying goes.

Sorry I don't think this was the best way he could have handled it. JMO.
 

arkieb1

Ideal_Rock
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May 11, 2012
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9,171
It wasn't just Dan there were a bunch of people bagging out PSers I think the post I read was actually on a trade site (my husband's family all work in the trade) and it was less than complimentary from a lot of people.

There are a lot of PS recommended vendors that dislike a lot of PSers. As some PSers have pointed out having sold my own stuff and been messed around, had people be complete A-holes, and give me really really s#itty offers - I get it, but on the flip side of that people that work in the trade like my in laws deal with this [email protected]#* from customers day in day out with smiles on their faces, and that's the professional way to handle it, otherwise if you want to be an online vendor, yet you can't deal with customers that want a lot of photos, are fussy and ask a lot of questions then it's probably time to find another profession....

The thing that really irks me is that some of the vendors that complain the most about Psers are the ones that advertise on Loupetroop and places specifically aimed at PSers....
 

T L

Super_Ideal_Rock
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Sep 20, 2008
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23,226
Well, thats his choice. I have to admit, I do wonder who sent him over the edge.
I’m sure it’s been brewing for a long time. He even came on here once very irritated and angry toward some members.

No loss, PS’ers have many other great vendors to give their business to.
 

T L

Super_Ideal_Rock
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As I used to be one of those who helped maintain the List of Vendors for Reference, I'd like to ask whether there should be a notation of caution regarding his new policy for PS members? We are after all, sort of helping generate some sort of traffic there with the link to his website (although it has apparently been negative lately).
Done. Honesty, if a vendor doesn’t allow returns, I don’t think they should be on that list, but I just added a note to check his policies instead.
 
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PrecisionGem

Brilliant_Rock
Trade
Joined
Jul 27, 2004
Messages
1,670
I'm guessing that a lot of this has to do with PayPal changing their policy on returns. It used to be if the return was done within a certain amount of time, the PayPal fee was not charged. Now on returns we still pay the fee. So if a stone is sold and returned, it cost 2.5% if in the US and 4% outside.

As far as Loupe Troop, I don't think vendors should be selling there at all. I don't think it looks professional for the vendor, nor is it fair to the traditional consumers to have to compete with people in the trade.
 

T L

Super_Ideal_Rock
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I'm guessing that a lot of this has to do with PayPal changing their policy on returns. It used to be if the return was done within a certain amount of time, the PayPal fee was not charged. Now on returns we still pay the fee. So if a stone is sold and returned, it cost 2.5% if in the US and 4% outside.

As far as Loupe Troop, I don't think vendors should be selling there at all. I don't think it looks professional for the vendor, nor is it fair to the traditional consumers to have to compete with people in the trade.
Then charge a restocking fee, but don’t single out just Pricescope members as all sales final. He doesn’t state that all sales are final, but only to Pricescope members.

Also, I find it hard to believe that his complaining about taking additional photos takes away from his cutting time. Why not just post multiple photos on your website to begin with, like some vendors do? The more photos, the better. Andrew From Gemfix does, and he posts videos as well. It is greatly appreciated.

Gene, you’re very gracious and understanding of returns, so thank you for your excellent customer service.
 
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chrono

Super_Ideal_Rock
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Apr 22, 2004
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37,193
As far as Loupe Troop, I don't think vendors should be selling there at all. I don't think it looks professional for the vendor, nor is it fair to the traditional consumers to have to compete with people in the trade.
I agree. It never sat well with me that trade can post there together with regular folk, but I'm not the owner of the place. I think it has been brought up numerous times in the past.
 

MissSarah

Rough_Rock
Joined
Mar 13, 2014
Messages
87
I can see both sides of it. I've returned a few stones, but I keep most of the ones I buy online. I hate returning things, especially because gem vendors are not like mega-stores and it hurts their bottom line- but returns are just what happens with online shopping sometimes. I wish restocking fees were the norm. The new PayPal policies are detrimental to a lot of the vendors we buy from.

On the other hand, I would feel professionally insulted if I was getting a proportionally high number of returns from a single group of people who were questioning my judgement of & description of color and quality of what I sold them. I mean, pictures don't tell the whole story, but Dan Stair posts pictures and videos of his stones. His cuts are lovely, and his prices are really good. He seems to do what he can to accurately represent what he's selling upfront, and I can understand him & other vendors not wanting to sell stones and ship them off to people who are ultimately browsing. All sale transactions are a trust-based interactions, so if you read the description and see a video, and are still on the fence- just trust from their presentation that this might not be the stone for you.

Asking for lots of additional pictures and processing returns may be an unnecessary burden on independent vendors. I carve jades and collect & ID unknown gems as a hobby, and it is time consuming, detail-focused work, as well as a labor of love- and my ire is stoked by distraction from my projects. Maybe we've driven some of our vendors to that point?
 

bludiva

Ideal_Rock
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Sep 23, 2017
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2,162
i don't know this vendor but i think it would be totally reasonable to have a notice that says, unfortunately we can't accommodate image requests above and beyond our listings and there is a restocking fee of X. it's just the way it's phrased that is problematic.
 

whitewave

Ideal_Rock
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Feb 29, 2012
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I'm guessing that a lot of this has to do with PayPal changing their policy on returns. It used to be if the return was done within a certain amount of time, the PayPal fee was not charged. Now on returns we still pay the fee. So if a stone is sold and returned, it cost 2.5% if in the US and 4% outside.

As far as Loupe Troop, I don't think vendors should be selling there at all. I don't think it looks professional for the vendor, nor is it fair to the traditional consumers to have to compete with people in the trade.
I did run into this with Litnon. I did let him know on the front end that I didn’t think his emerald fit my desires, but we talked about it and we decided together it was worth a shot. I offered to pay half the return fees or the fees— can’t remember which but I think it was like $11.00 which was perfectly fine with me.
 

pwsg07

Brilliant_Rock
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715
I have never bought from him. I wish he can post videos or photos of the stones face up not tilted. I am used to see the stones face up.
 

T L

Super_Ideal_Rock
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On the other hand, I would feel professionally insulted if I was getting a proportionally high number of returns from a single group of people who were questioning my judgement of & description of color and quality of what I sold them.
I think you hit the nail on the head. That’s probably the issue. The fact of the matter is that we used to see tons of his stones on Pricescope. I think someone posted a gem of his the other day but I can’t remember the last time before that. If his gems are not meeting expectations of a very educated group of consumers, that’s not the consumer’s fault. They are probably not getting what they’re expecting, hence the high rate of returns. I could be wrong, but considering his affordability, why else would there be so many returns???
 
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T L

Super_Ideal_Rock
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i don't know this vendor but i think it would be totally reasonable to have a notice that says, unfortunately we can't accommodate image requests above and beyond our listings and there is a restocking fee of X. it's just the way it's phrased that is problematic.
Yes, it singles out Pricescope members. Otherwise if you make such policies, do it across the board. I can see not selling overseas, or to only papal users, etc...but how in the world do you single out a group that has anonymous handle names? Does he have a sixth sense or is someone telling him who we all are? It’s very strange, and seems more of a rant against this site than a policy he could actually put in place.
 
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PieAreSquared

Shiny_Rock
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Dec 18, 2014
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197
Yes, it singles out Pricescope members. Otherwise if you make such policies, do it across the board. I can see not selling overseas, or to only papal users, etc...but how in the world do you single out a group that has anonymous handle names? Does he have a sixth sense or is someone telling him who we all are? It’s very strange, and seems more of a rant against this site than a policy he could actually put in place.
Definitely more rant than policy.

I've never done business with him, so I don't know what forms of payment he accepts, but...from a purely business standpoint, there is no way you can have two different return policies for different groups of people. Visa, MC, PayPal, would not support that.

No doubt he has done enough transactions that he also know this, so this appears to be more of a way to say, "get lost!" than any actual enforceable policy.

Was there a better way to handle it? Maybe. Do I blame him? Heck no. I've worked in retail too long to not understand his frustration.
There is a very good reason you sometimes see a sign in a shop that reads: "We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone".
When you are self-employed, all of your customers are your "bosses", and just like any employee, you have a right to quit a boss you perceive as unreasonable, or overly demanding (whether your boss agrees with that opinion or not).
Dan is exercising his right to choose his 'bosses', the people who pay him, and it seems he is perfectly fine with the consequences his choice may bring. I have no problem with that.
 
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