Children dying in hot cars - mistake or crime?

[cara]

The ability to multitask and handle many important things at once is an important part of being a parent. One can be a completely devoted and competent parent, but it is not realistic or good for a parent to be 100% focused on their child''s physical wellbeing and location at that precise moment 24 hours a day to the exclusion of anything else. A parent has to think ahead and think backwards and handle many different aspects of their life and their kid''s life in order to be a good parent.

Thinking about what to cook your kid for dinner is an important part of being a parent. Thinking about your kid''s doctor''s appointment next week is important. Thinking about whether to buy the expensive house in the good school district or the cheaper house in the crappy school district and send the kid to private school is an important part of being a parent. Thinking about your other, older kid and how they are doing in school while your baby is sleeping in the car is important. Using your brain to drive, avoid accidents, merge onto the highway, reroute around construction is important and sometimes requires concentrating on something other than the baby in the back seat. Thinking about your job, and how to keep it and do it well to provide for your child, is an important part of being a parent. Deciding whether another play date with Jimmy is good for your child or if you should hold off until Jimmy gets over his cold is a part of being a parent.

All these things might legitimately distract a parent from the the task of remembering to get their kid out of the car. While we might all agree that any parent that forgets their kid in the car has failed at a very basic task of parenting, and that whatever they might have been thinking about or doing that caused them to be distracted was much, much, much less important than not baking their kid in the car, the fact is that, as a parent, you can''t go around only thinking "where is kid - is kid safe? - where is kid - is kid safe?" You have to designate certain mental space for other thoughts, and return periodically to the "where is kid - is kid safe?" question. And that opens up the opportunity for failures, as the brain is an imperfect thing.

When the brain fails to balance these tasks appropriately, or when the environment conspires against the parent such that even a brief moment''s inattention is deadly (such as the toddler that wonders off and drowns in the pool), or when the brain tricks itself with the false answer "kid is safe at daycare" when the kid is NOT safe at daycare, it is truly a tragedy. But it does not necessarily mean that the parent was evil or didn''t think their kid was important or was deeply wrong to ever be thinking about anything besides the present location of their kid. Obviously, they failed in one task and they failed with spectacular consequences, but as an engineer I guess my response to the phenomena is to try to build a system where human memory failures can occur without killing babies. Because I think relying on the human brain alone, knowing its weaknesses, is not a good plan.

In addition to the carseat sensors which no one will buy, here are the non-product recommendations for preventing death by hyperthermia of kids:

1) believing that it is possible for even a well-meaing, non-abusive parent to forget their kid in the car and convincing parents that they could do it too so that they:

2) Keep a teddy bear in the car seat when the kid is not in it, but move the teddy bear to the front passenger seat for the driver to easily see when the kid is in the car

3) always leave something they need for the day in the backseat of the car when carrying their child. Purse or wallet next to the carseat.

4) make a habit of always opening the rear seat car door

5) arrange with childcare provider''s to always call to check on child''s whereabouts if child does not appear as expected

Of these, #1 is key because if no one believes it could happen to them they will not implement the rest.

 

[Lauren8211]

Date: 3/11/2009 1:24:46 PM
Author: cara
The ability to multitask and handle many important things at once is an important part of being a parent. One can be a completely devoted and competent parent, but it is not realistic or good for a parent to be 100% focused on their child''s physical wellbeing and location at that precise moment 24 hours a day to the exclusion of anything else. A parent has to think ahead and think backwards and handle many different aspects of their life and their kid''s life in order to be a good parent.

Thinking about what to cook your kid for dinner is an important part of being a parent. Thinking about your kid''s doctor''s appointment next week is important. Thinking about whether to buy the expensive house in the good school district or the cheaper house in the crappy school district and send the kid to private school is an important part of being a parent. Thinking about your other, older kid and how they are doing in school while your baby is sleeping in the car is important. Using your brain to drive, avoid accidents, merge onto the highway, reroute around construction is important and sometimes requires concentrating on something other than the baby in the back seat. Thinking about your job, and how to keep it and do it well to provide for your child, is an important part of being a parent. Deciding whether another play date with Jimmy is good for your child or if you should hold off until Jimmy gets over his cold is a part of being a parent.

All these things might legitimately distract a parent from the the task of remembering to get their kid out of the car. While we might all agree that any parent that forgets their kid in the car has failed at a very basic task of parenting, and that whatever they might have been thinking about or doing that caused them to be distracted was much, much, much less important than not baking their kid in the car, the fact is that, as a parent, you can''t go around only thinking ''where is kid - is kid safe? - where is kid - is kid safe?'' You have to designate certain mental space for other thoughts, and return periodically to the ''where is kid - is kid safe?'' question. And that opens up the opportunity for failures, as the brain is an imperfect thing.

When the brain fails to balance these tasks appropriately, or when the environment conspires against the parent such that even a brief moment''s inattention is deadly (such as the toddler that wonders off and drowns in the pool), or when the brain tricks itself with the false answer ''kid is safe at daycare'' when the kid is NOT safe at daycare, it is truly a tragedy. But it does not necessarily mean that the parent was evil or didn''t think their kid was important or was deeply wrong to ever be thinking about anything besides the present location of their kid. Obviously, they failed in one task and they failed with spectacular consequences, but as an engineer I guess my response to the phenomena is to try to build a system where human memory failures can occur without killing babies. Because I think relying on the human brain alone, knowing its weaknesses, is not a good plan.

In addition to the carseat sensors which no one will buy, here are the non-product recommendations for preventing death by hyperthermia of kids:

1) believing that it is possible for even a well-meaing, non-abusive parent to forget their kid in the car and convincing parents that they could do it too so that they:

2) Keep a teddy bear in the car seat when the kid is not in it, but move the teddy bear to the front passenger seat for the driver to easily see when the kid is in the car

3) always leave something they need for the day in the backseat of the car when carrying their child. Purse or wallet next to the carseat.

4) make a habit of always opening the rear seat car door

5) arrange with childcare provider''s to always call to check on child''s whereabouts if child does not appear as expected

Of these, #1 is key because if no one believes it could happen to them they will not implement the rest.

Great post, Cara.

Thanks!

 

[Mara]

Did anyone see that DH episode where Lynette forgot her kid in the car because she was negotiating her salary for some new job she was taking? After the neighbor brought the kid in, she was so horrified she turned down the job because she realized that other priorities were taking over what should be more important.

Personally I believe that in becoming a parent, you make that conscious decision to bring another life into the world, so that should be your focus. But that's an ideal world. Many parents have to work one job, if not two, to support their families, many parents don't have the option to be stay-at-home.

Brains and bodies can only take so much. In a way, your brain can easily work against you in ways you don't realize. I am getting way more forgetful and less detail-oriented in my 30's than I was when I was younger. I imagine it only gets worse. Can I control it? Not really. In our crazy world of multi-tasking and 'more is not enough' from employers, spouses, family members, the thought of juggling all of these regular, increasingly-overwhelming life tasks and adding a kid into the mix is terrifying. But even SAH mom's get overwhelmed and overworked , you don't even need an additional job to make you slowly insane.

I can see how something like this would happen. Should it? Absolutely not. Is it horrible, absolutely. But I would agree with don't judge until you are in that person's shoes. Can you imagine being that parent and if your child died? Wow that would be punishment enough...guilt for the rest of their life. No physical imprisonment needed, their mind will be prison enough.

Re: forgetting the dog. We adore our dog, but there have been instances in the last few years where we were less than stellar parents due to too much going on at the time. Once, Greg was out on the patio, she wandered out silently after him then when he came back in she was around the corner, he did not see her so he closed the door and left her outside, at night at like 11pm. A neighbor had to call us and tell us she was outside.

We were HORRIFIED we had not even noticed she was not with us for like 20 minutes. Another time I closed her in the pantry not realizing she was sniffing something in the corner, and went elsewhere in the house. Sometimes she barks or scratches at the door, but other times she is silent. The diff is that dogs CAN jump, bark, whine, scratch the door...they have the ability to draw attn or make noise. Babies in carseats, if they are young enough, cannot do any of the above, esp if they are sleeping in the car, they are absolutely silent. So it is really not quite the same for comparison.

 

[vespergirl]

So if we''re all on the same page that "lizard brain" memory flaws can make people forget things that they would not normally forget if they are outside of the person''s regular daily routine. Some people feel that we should not be criminally liable for honestly forgetting things under such circumstances.

Say, then, that we apply this logic to a less dire situation. Tax day only comes around once a year - one could say, then, that filing your taxes is not part of one''s daily routine. If you honestly forget to file your taxes on April 15 because you were preoccupied with other things, the IRS still nails you with a penalty, since you were still legally responsible to file taxes by that date. Whether you intentionally ignored the dealine or honestly forgot is immaterial - we know that''s the day that taxes have to be filed, and if they are not filed on that day, for whatever reason, we have to pay the consequences. Obviously in the tax situation it''s only a monetary penalty, but it still needs to be paid - the IRS can''t excuse the cases where it was an innocent mistake, or people everywhere could be claiming innocent mistakes.

When you approach it as a logic argument, as applied to our legal system, "I forgot" is simply not an excuse, even if it''s the truth. The same laws need to apply to everyone when the law is broken.

I do truly believe that those parents did not intend to leave their children in the cars, or for their children to be harmed. I even do honestly believe that they truly forgot. It still does not change the fact that they broke the law and killed someone. I don''t think that they belong in jail, and I think that some parents were acquited. I still think that they all need to be prosecuted, and let the judge decide.

 

[TravelingGal]

Date: 3/11/2009 1:43:26 PM
Author: vespergirl
So if we''re all on the same page that ''lizard brain'' memory flaws can make people forget things that they would not normally forget if they are outside of the person''s regular daily routine. Some people feel that we should not be criminally liable for honestly forgetting things under such circumstances.

Say, then, that we apply this logic to a less dire situation. Tax day only comes around once a year - one could say, then, that filing your taxes is not part of one''s daily routine. If you honestly forget to file your taxes on April 15 because you were preoccupied with other things, the IRS still nails you with a penalty, since you were still legally responsible to file taxes by that date. Whether you intentionally ignored the dealine or honestly forgot is immaterial - we know that''s the day that taxes have to be filed, and if they are not filed on that day, for whatever reason, we have to pay the consequences. Obviously in the tax situation it''s only a monetary penalty, but it still needs to be paid - the IRS can''t excuse the cases where it was an innocent mistake, or people everywhere could be claiming innocent mistakes.

When you approach it as a logic argument, as applied to our legal system, ''I forgot'' is simply not an excuse, even if it''s the truth. The same laws need to apply to everyone when the law is broken.

I do truly believe that those parents did not intend to leave their children in the cars, or for their children to be harmed. I even do honestly believe that they truly forgot. It still does not change the fact that they broke the law and killed someone. I don''t think that they belong in jail, and I think that some parents were acquited. I still think that they all need to be prosecuted, and let the judge decide.

Vesper, I can buy that something might need to be done. Some kind of community service, or whatever. Maybe educating other parents that it could indeed happen to them. And something on the record, perhaps. Judges can get creative, I think. Even though it is possible to forget children in cars, the bottom line is that we SHOULDN''T, and if it means you better make sure that you do something preventative so you don''t get prosecuted (oh, and keep your kid safe), then I could get behind that. I''d have to think about it more before I could come to a more solid opinion though.

Cara, great post. I leave my bag in the back half the time (I hate leaving something there in case of an accident and it become projectile) but I will leave it on the floor where it''s probably less of a risk.

 

[Lauren8211]

Date: 3/11/2009 1:43:26 PM
Author: vespergirl
So if we''re all on the same page that ''lizard brain'' memory flaws can make people forget things that they would not normally forget if they are outside of the person''s regular daily routine. Some people feel that we should not be criminally liable for honestly forgetting things under such circumstances.

Say, then, that we apply this logic to a less dire situation. Tax day only comes around once a year - one could say, then, that filing your taxes is not part of one''s daily routine. If you honestly forget to file your taxes on April 15 because you were preoccupied with other things, the IRS still nails you with a penalty, since you were still legally responsible to file taxes by that date. Whether you intentionally ignored the dealine or honestly forgot is immaterial - we know that''s the day that taxes have to be filed, and if they are not filed on that day, for whatever reason, we have to pay the consequences. Obviously in the tax situation it''s only a monetary penalty, but it still needs to be paid - the IRS can''t excuse the cases where it was an innocent mistake, or people everywhere could be claiming innocent mistakes.

When you approach it as a logic argument, as applied to our legal system, ''I forgot'' is simply not an excuse, even if it''s the truth. The same laws need to apply to everyone when the law is broken.

I do truly believe that those parents did not intend to leave their children in the cars, or for their children to be harmed. I even do honestly believe that they truly forgot. It still does not change the fact that they broke the law and killed someone. I don''t think that they belong in jail, and I think that some parents were acquited. I still think that they all need to be prosecuted, and let the judge decide.

I disagree with this analogy for a couple of reasons.

1. You are given plenty of time to pay your taxes, with constant reminders. It''s all over TV, you receive documents in the mail, and you have over 2 months to remember. So forgetting your taxes isn''t a split-second bad memory decision. It''s purposeful procrastination that leads one to "forget" their taxes.

2. The IRS imposes that penalty because if everyone could "forget" their taxes, they would. On purpose. To keep their money. I can pretty much guarantee that in 100% of accidental cases of deaths of children that were left in the car, NO ONE would continue to forget their child, if given the chance to go back.

And again, I don''t see how criminalization of this deters future occurences, which, IMO, should be the reason to criminalize ANYTHING.

 

[vespergirl]

Date: 3/11/2009 1:51:09 PM
Author: elledizzy5

Date: 3/11/2009 1:43:26 PM
Author: vespergirl
So if we''re all on the same page that ''lizard brain'' memory flaws can make people forget things that they would not normally forget if they are outside of the person''s regular daily routine. Some people feel that we should not be criminally liable for honestly forgetting things under such circumstances.

Say, then, that we apply this logic to a less dire situation. Tax day only comes around once a year - one could say, then, that filing your taxes is not part of one''s daily routine. If you honestly forget to file your taxes on April 15 because you were preoccupied with other things, the IRS still nails you with a penalty, since you were still legally responsible to file taxes by that date. Whether you intentionally ignored the dealine or honestly forgot is immaterial - we know that''s the day that taxes have to be filed, and if they are not filed on that day, for whatever reason, we have to pay the consequences. Obviously in the tax situation it''s only a monetary penalty, but it still needs to be paid - the IRS can''t excuse the cases where it was an innocent mistake, or people everywhere could be claiming innocent mistakes.

When you approach it as a logic argument, as applied to our legal system, ''I forgot'' is simply not an excuse, even if it''s the truth. The same laws need to apply to everyone when the law is broken.

I do truly believe that those parents did not intend to leave their children in the cars, or for their children to be harmed. I even do honestly believe that they truly forgot. It still does not change the fact that they broke the law and killed someone. I don''t think that they belong in jail, and I think that some parents were acquited. I still think that they all need to be prosecuted, and let the judge decide.

I disagree with this analogy for a couple of reasons.

1. You are given plenty of time to pay your taxes, with constant reminders. It''s all over TV, you receive documents in the mail, and you have over 2 months to remember. So forgetting your taxes isn''t a split-second bad memory decision. It''s purposeful procrastination that leads one to ''forget'' their taxes.

2. The IRS imposes that penalty because if everyone could ''forget'' their taxes, they would. On purpose. To keep their money. I can pretty much guarantee that in 100% of accidental cases of deaths of children that were left in the car, NO ONE would continue to forget their child, if given the chance to go back.

And again, I don''t see how criminalization of this deters future occurences, which, IMO, should be the reason to criminalize ANYTHING.

Not necessarily - perhaps your taxes were in an envelope, sealed, signed, and ready to go, and you just forgot to drop them in the mailbox on the way home because your were tired or distracted, or maybe you actually thought that you already did drop it off until you looked in your backseat the next day - exact same situation as these parents with their babies.

 

[Lauren8211]

Date: 3/11/2009 1:57:59 PM
Author: vespergirl

Date: 3/11/2009 1:51:09 PM
Author: elledizzy5

Date: 3/11/2009 1:43:26 PM
Author: vespergirl
So if we''re all on the same page that ''lizard brain'' memory flaws can make people forget things that they would not normally forget if they are outside of the person''s regular daily routine. Some people feel that we should not be criminally liable for honestly forgetting things under such circumstances.

Say, then, that we apply this logic to a less dire situation. Tax day only comes around once a year - one could say, then, that filing your taxes is not part of one''s daily routine. If you honestly forget to file your taxes on April 15 because you were preoccupied with other things, the IRS still nails you with a penalty, since you were still legally responsible to file taxes by that date. Whether you intentionally ignored the dealine or honestly forgot is immaterial - we know that''s the day that taxes have to be filed, and if they are not filed on that day, for whatever reason, we have to pay the consequences. Obviously in the tax situation it''s only a monetary penalty, but it still needs to be paid - the IRS can''t excuse the cases where it was an innocent mistake, or people everywhere could be claiming innocent mistakes.

When you approach it as a logic argument, as applied to our legal system, ''I forgot'' is simply not an excuse, even if it''s the truth. The same laws need to apply to everyone when the law is broken.

I do truly believe that those parents did not intend to leave their children in the cars, or for their children to be harmed. I even do honestly believe that they truly forgot. It still does not change the fact that they broke the law and killed someone. I don''t think that they belong in jail, and I think that some parents were acquited. I still think that they all need to be prosecuted, and let the judge decide.

I disagree with this analogy for a couple of reasons.

1. You are given plenty of time to pay your taxes, with constant reminders. It''s all over TV, you receive documents in the mail, and you have over 2 months to remember. So forgetting your taxes isn''t a split-second bad memory decision. It''s purposeful procrastination that leads one to ''forget'' their taxes.

2. The IRS imposes that penalty because if everyone could ''forget'' their taxes, they would. On purpose. To keep their money. I can pretty much guarantee that in 100% of accidental cases of deaths of children that were left in the car, NO ONE would continue to forget their child, if given the chance to go back.

And again, I don''t see how criminalization of this deters future occurences, which, IMO, should be the reason to criminalize ANYTHING.

Not necessarily - perhaps your taxes were in an envelope, sealed, signed, and ready to go, and you just forgot to drop them in the mailbox on the way home because your were tired or distracted, or maybe you actually thought that you already did drop it off until you looked in your backseat the next day - exact same situation as these parents with their babies.

Most times, it is purposeful procrastination. And if it''s not... I still have to compare...

Assuming you owe money, anyone would put off delaying payment to the IRS.

No one would choose to leave their kid in a car to cook. Unless they''re sick in the head, and intended to, but that is not what we''re talking about, and those cases would and should be prosecuted.

 

[lucyandroger]

Date: 3/11/2009 1:57:59 PM
Author: vespergirl

Date: 3/11/2009 1:51:09 PM
Author: elledizzy5

Date: 3/11/2009 1:43:26 PM
Author: vespergirl
So if we''re all on the same page that ''lizard brain'' memory flaws can make people forget things that they would not normally forget if they are outside of the person''s regular daily routine. Some people feel that we should not be criminally liable for honestly forgetting things under such circumstances.

Say, then, that we apply this logic to a less dire situation. Tax day only comes around once a year - one could say, then, that filing your taxes is not part of one''s daily routine. If you honestly forget to file your taxes on April 15 because you were preoccupied with other things, the IRS still nails you with a penalty, since you were still legally responsible to file taxes by that date. Whether you intentionally ignored the dealine or honestly forgot is immaterial - we know that''s the day that taxes have to be filed, and if they are not filed on that day, for whatever reason, we have to pay the consequences. Obviously in the tax situation it''s only a monetary penalty, but it still needs to be paid - the IRS can''t excuse the cases where it was an innocent mistake, or people everywhere could be claiming innocent mistakes.

When you approach it as a logic argument, as applied to our legal system, ''I forgot'' is simply not an excuse, even if it''s the truth. The same laws need to apply to everyone when the law is broken.

I do truly believe that those parents did not intend to leave their children in the cars, or for their children to be harmed. I even do honestly believe that they truly forgot. It still does not change the fact that they broke the law and killed someone. I don''t think that they belong in jail, and I think that some parents were acquited. I still think that they all need to be prosecuted, and let the judge decide.

I disagree with this analogy for a couple of reasons.

1. You are given plenty of time to pay your taxes, with constant reminders. It''s all over TV, you receive documents in the mail, and you have over 2 months to remember. So forgetting your taxes isn''t a split-second bad memory decision. It''s purposeful procrastination that leads one to ''forget'' their taxes.

2. The IRS imposes that penalty because if everyone could ''forget'' their taxes, they would. On purpose. To keep their money. I can pretty much guarantee that in 100% of accidental cases of deaths of children that were left in the car, NO ONE would continue to forget their child, if given the chance to go back.

And again, I don''t see how criminalization of this deters future occurences, which, IMO, should be the reason to criminalize ANYTHING.

Not necessarily - perhaps your taxes were in an envelope, sealed, signed, and ready to go, and you just forgot to drop them in the mailbox on the way home because your were tired or distracted, or maybe you actually thought that you already did drop it off until you looked in your backseat the next day - exact same situation as these parents with their babies.

Vespergirl, You do not have to file your taxes on April 15. April 15 is the deadline. People have all of the months leading up to April 15 to file.

This analogy is not at all on point.

 

[lucyandroger]

Date: 3/11/2009 1:24:46 PM
Author: cara
The ability to multitask and handle many important things at once is an important part of being a parent. One can be a completely devoted and competent parent, but it is not realistic or good for a parent to be 100% focused on their child''s physical wellbeing and location at that precise moment 24 hours a day to the exclusion of anything else. A parent has to think ahead and think backwards and handle many different aspects of their life and their kid''s life in order to be a good parent.

Thinking about what to cook your kid for dinner is an important part of being a parent. Thinking about your kid''s doctor''s appointment next week is important. Thinking about whether to buy the expensive house in the good school district or the cheaper house in the crappy school district and send the kid to private school is an important part of being a parent. Thinking about your other, older kid and how they are doing in school while your baby is sleeping in the car is important. Using your brain to drive, avoid accidents, merge onto the highway, reroute around construction is important and sometimes requires concentrating on something other than the baby in the back seat. Thinking about your job, and how to keep it and do it well to provide for your child, is an important part of being a parent. Deciding whether another play date with Jimmy is good for your child or if you should hold off until Jimmy gets over his cold is a part of being a parent.

All these things might legitimately distract a parent from the the task of remembering to get their kid out of the car. While we might all agree that any parent that forgets their kid in the car has failed at a very basic task of parenting, and that whatever they might have been thinking about or doing that caused them to be distracted was much, much, much less important than not baking their kid in the car, the fact is that, as a parent, you can''t go around only thinking ''where is kid - is kid safe? - where is kid - is kid safe?'' You have to designate certain mental space for other thoughts, and return periodically to the ''where is kid - is kid safe?'' question. And that opens up the opportunity for failures, as the brain is an imperfect thing.

When the brain fails to balance these tasks appropriately, or when the environment conspires against the parent such that even a brief moment''s inattention is deadly (such as the toddler that wonders off and drowns in the pool), or when the brain tricks itself with the false answer ''kid is safe at daycare'' when the kid is NOT safe at daycare, it is truly a tragedy. But it does not necessarily mean that the parent was evil or didn''t think their kid was important or was deeply wrong to ever be thinking about anything besides the present location of their kid. Obviously, they failed in one task and they failed with spectacular consequences, but as an engineer I guess my response to the phenomena is to try to build a system where human memory failures can occur without killing babies. Because I think relying on the human brain alone, knowing its weaknesses, is not a good plan.

In addition to the carseat sensors which no one will buy, here are the non-product recommendations for preventing death by hyperthermia of kids:

1) believing that it is possible for even a well-meaing, non-abusive parent to forget their kid in the car and convincing parents that they could do it too so that they:

2) Keep a teddy bear in the car seat when the kid is not in it, but move the teddy bear to the front passenger seat for the driver to easily see when the kid is in the car

3) always leave something they need for the day in the backseat of the car when carrying their child. Purse or wallet next to the carseat.

4) make a habit of always opening the rear seat car door

5) arrange with childcare provider''s to always call to check on child''s whereabouts if child does not appear as expected

Of these, #1 is key because if no one believes it could happen to them they will not implement the rest.

AMAZING post, Cara!

 

[dragonfly411]

I think I am being slightly misinterpreted. Only slightly though. Tgal, I think the autopilot IS the problem. We go into autopilot too much, and normally it is as our brain begins to focus on one sole thing, be it job, a list of groceries, a birthday party we have to attend this weekend, what toy we''re going to buy Billy tomorrow etc. We turn into autopilot mode and lose consciousness of the here and now and the here and now priority slips away.

The fact of it is though, the parents consciously put their child in the car, and went to autopilot, or got carried away with something, and forgot their child being there COMPLETELY. I understand forgetting small things. I completely understand forgetting the nipple thing, or scoops, I understand forgetting things at the grocery, forgetting to do things. I forgot to leave an important check for my grandma to drop off for our storage unit (not open outside my work hours so she runs it by) this morning, so now will be late. People forget things, but to forget a child in a car is something that shouldn''t happen, and I think there needs to be an education system yes and I think alarms are a fantastic idea. I really hate the whole put your child in the backseat thing because it takes attention and focus away from them. But I also REALLY think that we become so caught up in our busy schedules and hit that auto pilot mode as we become focused on what we need to get done far far far too much, and we as people in general need to take the time to make sure this doesn''t happen as much. I''d feel the same way about being on autopilot mentally and it resulting in a car accident. It puts another life at stake. In this case that life is tragically the person''s own child, and it''s sad to think that these parents let themselves lose consciousness in the here and now as they got caught up in their thoughts or whatever they might have been doing. The autopilot part IS the issue there, because the autopilot is what made them forget their child.

I certainly don''t think these parents are murderers, or should be charged as such, but I do think it calls for charges of negligence and child endangerment. It should not happen, and parents should make sure to not get so carried away with things that they allow themselves to slip into auto pilot and forget everything but the one things that are in the forefront of their mind at that time. I don''t think they made a conscious CHOICE to let something get in the way of the wellbeing of the child. They make a CHOICE in their priorities and in making work or phone conversations or other things such high priorities that they can forget all other things in the moment, they run that risk. In most of the scenarios presented, these were parents who were busy trying to multitask, or they were thinking of work work work. Go back and read the article and you''ll see this. When those things are able to become so important that they erase all other thought (again leading us to the autopilot mode), is when people have problems, and when this could happen because again, the thought of the child being in the vehicle is no longer in the front of their head, but the office now is.

Do I think it makes these people criminals? no. Do I think that it is a terrible tragedy? yes. Do I think that there should be consequences for the parent? Most definitely. They neglected their child. Do I think they belong in prison? no. Do I think we all make mistakes? Yes. But this is one that results in a human life, a child life, their own child. No parent should have to experience that, but then again, no parent should let themselves get so caught up in their daily to dos or whatever that they go that far into an autopilot mentality that they forget their child being there. Ever. Working parent or not, that parent made the choice to bring this life into the world, and that child is their responsibility and they have to do everything they can to make sure they make that child their top priority (not ONLY priority... but top yes) in life. The work mentality, the what I need at the grocery, the what toy am I going to get, that all needs to wait until they arrive at the destination (I do not turn on my work mentality until I get there. Work is work, and my personal life is my personal life type of deal), not at home, not in the car on the way, not in the car on the way home.

 

[lucyandroger]

Date: 3/11/2009 1:49:13 PM
Author: TravelingGal

Date: 3/11/2009 1:43:26 PM
Author: vespergirl
So if we''re all on the same page that ''lizard brain'' memory flaws can make people forget things that they would not normally forget if they are outside of the person''s regular daily routine. Some people feel that we should not be criminally liable for honestly forgetting things under such circumstances.

Say, then, that we apply this logic to a less dire situation. Tax day only comes around once a year - one could say, then, that filing your taxes is not part of one''s daily routine. If you honestly forget to file your taxes on April 15 because you were preoccupied with other things, the IRS still nails you with a penalty, since you were still legally responsible to file taxes by that date. Whether you intentionally ignored the dealine or honestly forgot is immaterial - we know that''s the day that taxes have to be filed, and if they are not filed on that day, for whatever reason, we have to pay the consequences. Obviously in the tax situation it''s only a monetary penalty, but it still needs to be paid - the IRS can''t excuse the cases where it was an innocent mistake, or people everywhere could be claiming innocent mistakes.

When you approach it as a logic argument, as applied to our legal system, ''I forgot'' is simply not an excuse, even if it''s the truth. The same laws need to apply to everyone when the law is broken.

I do truly believe that those parents did not intend to leave their children in the cars, or for their children to be harmed. I even do honestly believe that they truly forgot. It still does not change the fact that they broke the law and killed someone. I don''t think that they belong in jail, and I think that some parents were acquited. I still think that they all need to be prosecuted, and let the judge decide.

Vesper, I can buy that something might need to be done. Some kind of community service, or whatever. Maybe educating other parents that it could indeed happen to them. And something on the record, perhaps. Judges can get creative, I think. Even though it is possible to forget children in cars, the bottom line is that we SHOULDN''T, and if it means you better make sure that you do something preventative so you don''t get prosecuted (oh, and keep your kid safe), then I could get behind that. I''d have to think about it more before I could come to a more solid opinion though.

Cara, great post. I leave my bag in the back half the time (I hate leaving something there in case of an accident and it become projectile) but I will leave it on the floor where it''s probably less of a risk.

Depending on the state, there are often mandatory minimums that prevent judges from getting creative.

 

[TravelingGal]

Date: 3/11/2009 2:08:43 PM
Author: dragonfly411

Do I think it makes these people criminals? no. Do I think that it is a terrible tragedy? yes. Do I think that there should be consequences for the parent? Most definitely. They neglected their child. Do I think they belong in prison? no. Do I think we all make mistakes? Yes. But this is one that results in a human life, a child life, their own child. No parent should have to experience that, but then again, no parent should let themselves get so caught up in their daily to dos or whatever that they go that far into an autopilot mentality that they forget their child being there. Ever. Working parent or not, that parent made the choice to bring this life into the world, and that child is their responsibility and they have to do everything they can to make sure they make that child their top priority (not ONLY priority... but top yes) in life. The work mentality, the what I need at the grocery, the what toy am I going to get, that all needs to wait until they arrive at the destination (I do not turn on my work mentality until I get there. Work is work, and my personal life is my personal life type of deal), not at home, not in the car on the way, not in the car on the way home.

Wow, I''m glad your mind works like that. Interesting that you think you know how other people''s minds should work as well.

 

[TravelingGal]

Date: 3/11/2009 2:12:33 PM
Author: lucyandroger

Date: 3/11/2009 1:49:13 PM
Author: TravelingGal

Date: 3/11/2009 1:43:26 PM
Author: vespergirl
So if we''re all on the same page that ''lizard brain'' memory flaws can make people forget things that they would not normally forget if they are outside of the person''s regular daily routine. Some people feel that we should not be criminally liable for honestly forgetting things under such circumstances.

Say, then, that we apply this logic to a less dire situation. Tax day only comes around once a year - one could say, then, that filing your taxes is not part of one''s daily routine. If you honestly forget to file your taxes on April 15 because you were preoccupied with other things, the IRS still nails you with a penalty, since you were still legally responsible to file taxes by that date. Whether you intentionally ignored the dealine or honestly forgot is immaterial - we know that''s the day that taxes have to be filed, and if they are not filed on that day, for whatever reason, we have to pay the consequences. Obviously in the tax situation it''s only a monetary penalty, but it still needs to be paid - the IRS can''t excuse the cases where it was an innocent mistake, or people everywhere could be claiming innocent mistakes.

When you approach it as a logic argument, as applied to our legal system, ''I forgot'' is simply not an excuse, even if it''s the truth. The same laws need to apply to everyone when the law is broken.

I do truly believe that those parents did not intend to leave their children in the cars, or for their children to be harmed. I even do honestly believe that they truly forgot. It still does not change the fact that they broke the law and killed someone. I don''t think that they belong in jail, and I think that some parents were acquited. I still think that they all need to be prosecuted, and let the judge decide.

Vesper, I can buy that something might need to be done. Some kind of community service, or whatever. Maybe educating other parents that it could indeed happen to them. And something on the record, perhaps. Judges can get creative, I think. Even though it is possible to forget children in cars, the bottom line is that we SHOULDN''T, and if it means you better make sure that you do something preventative so you don''t get prosecuted (oh, and keep your kid safe), then I could get behind that. I''d have to think about it more before I could come to a more solid opinion though.

Cara, great post. I leave my bag in the back half the time (I hate leaving something there in case of an accident and it become projectile) but I will leave it on the floor where it''s probably less of a risk.

Depending on the state, there are often mandatory minimums that prevent judges from getting creative.

I''m sure there are. Like I said, I don''t have an answer on this one, nor a solid opinion as I have yet if to think through all the details and loopholes. Not sure I would have an answer even then!

 

[dragonfly411]

Tgal - I don''t think I was making that implication at all. And yes my mind DOES work like that. When I''m off work I don''t want to think about it anymore, and when I''m home, I don''t focus on work. There is no reason to. I actually kindof get onto my aunt because she brings her work everywhere with her, including family vacation. It''s sad to see her not enjoying her time.
I guess I am of the here and now mentality. But I certainly am not arrogant enough to think that I think I know it all and I know how everyone should act. But I do think we can all agree that nothing should override one''s responsibility to one''s child.

 

[dragonfly411]

Tgal - question for you, do you think that a woman on a cell phone who runs through a light b/c she''s on auto pilot and thinking about work is less to blame if she causes an accident? Because that''s kindof the same mentality I''m thinking of. I just want to know if we''re kindof thinking of the same thing. I''m guilty of halfway running a red light because I was on autodrive at night, didn''t cause an accident but it was a big wake up call for me. I wasn''t on the phone mind you. But I''m wondering if you think the autopilot excuse would work elsewhere? Because that autopilot mode caused the child to die. If the woman used the same excuse "I was in auto mode, It was an honest mistake, I just forgot to check the light" in a car accident, I don''t think she''d be let off for it, esp if it resulted in harm or death. For me that auto is the same mentality on both pages, is it for you? Again, just making sure we aren''t thinking of different things here.

 

[basil]

Dragonfly, what did you think of on your way into work this morning, presuming that you drive?

At least for me, it''s pretty darn near impossible for me to be simultaneously consciously thinking of more than one things at a time. Rapid alternating is one thing, but if you are really concentrating on anything else, you can''t be thinking about your kid''s whereabouts at the same time. And it''s impossible to think of nothing else, because you''d never get anything done in life.

As I said earlier in this thread, I''m a surgeon. I''m pretty sure my patients hope that I am not thinking "where''s my kid? did I leave him in the car? where''s my kid? is he with the babysitter? where''s my kid? Is he safe?" while I am operating on them, and I don''t think I could if I tried. So should I not have kids because they will not be on the forefront of my mind during those times?

 

[decodelighted]

Date: 3/11/2009 2:17:22 PM
Author: TravelingGal

Date: 3/11/2009 2:08:43 PM
Author: dragonfly411
that parent made the choice to bring this life into the world, and that child is their responsibility and they have to do everything they can to make sure they make that child their top priority (not ONLY priority... but top yes) in life. The work mentality, the what I need at the grocery, the what toy am I going to get, that all needs to wait until they arrive at the destination (I do not turn on my work mentality until I get there. Work is work, and my personal life is my personal life type of deal), not at home, not in the car on the way, not in the car on the way home.

Wow, I'm glad your mind works like that. Interesting that you think you know how other people's minds should work as well.

Wow. Great for someone to be so perfectly focused! Try that after age 35 .. or 40 ... or what about these children's grandparents? Might they suffer from some tragic memory loss or are they supposed to be perfectly disciplined & unflappable at all times too? Guess they should never babysit then. Just aren't up to snuff.

Everyone who believes themselves infallible ... must. be. young. (And have a LIFETIME of humbling experiences ahead of them, sad to say)

 

[Allison D.]

Date: 3/11/2009 1:43:26 PM
Author: vespergirl
So if we''re all on the same page that ''lizard brain'' memory flaws can make people forget things that they would not normally forget if they are outside of the person''s regular daily routine. Some people feel that we should not be criminally liable for honestly forgetting things under such circumstances.

Say, then, that we apply this logic to a less dire situation. Tax day only comes around once a year - one could say, then, that filing your taxes is not part of one''s daily routine. If you honestly forget to file your taxes on April 15 because you were preoccupied with other things, the IRS still nails you with a penalty, since you were still legally responsible to file taxes by that date. Whether you intentionally ignored the dealine or honestly forgot is immaterial - we know that''s the day that taxes have to be filed, and if they are not filed on that day, for whatever reason, we have to pay the consequences. Obviously in the tax situation it''s only a monetary penalty, but it still needs to be paid - the IRS can''t excuse the cases where it was an innocent mistake, or people everywhere could be claiming innocent mistakes.

When you approach it as a logic argument, as applied to our legal system, ''I forgot'' is simply not an excuse, even if it''s the truth. The same laws need to apply to everyone when the law is broken.

I do truly believe that those parents did not intend to leave their children in the cars, or for their children to be harmed. I even do honestly believe that they truly forgot. It still does not change the fact that they broke the law and killed someone. I don''t think that they belong in jail, and I think that some parents were acquited. I still think that they all need to be prosecuted, and let the judge decide.

It seems you are suggesting that the law is an automatic machine that has no choice on how to APPLY the law. That''s simply not true.

The law says what constitutes an infraction and what doesn''t. It''s up to PEOPLE with sound judgment to consider if the INTENT of the law is served by bringing charges. That is up to the prosecutor''s office, and it is their job to apply human judgment and decide which cases should be prosecuted and which shouldn''t.

Don''t kid yourself into thinking that every illegal act is prosecuted - they aren''t. Prosecutors make decisions every day about which cases to pursue and which NOT to pursue, and they do so by applying (hopefully) sound human (and merciful) judgment. Will it serve the interests of the state/people to prosecute this case? Is prosecution necessary to mete out justice, or is there another way? In acts that require intent, is there enough evidence to prove intent?

Your analogy of the IRS falls short for a few reasons. The IRS often recommends AGAINST prosecuting for non-filing! "A long-standing practice of the IRS has been not to recommend criminal prosecution of individuals for failure to file tax returns, provided they voluntarily file, or make arrangements to file, before being notified they are under criminal investigation." (http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/article/0,,id=122721,00.html)

How many articles have you read about homeless people who didn''t file being prosecuted? Yep, me neither....we don''t hear about them because they typically don''t happen. Did those who failed to file fail on their obligation to file? Of course they did. Is it in the interest of the state or country to prosecute them? Most likely not - you can''t get blood from a stone, and prosecuting would be an enormous waste of time and resources and wouldn''t serve society''s interest.

The law is intended to help apply agreed-upon remedies to behavior that falls beyond that which we want. It''s not intended to be an absolute tenet applied without individual consideration for the circumstances.

 

[lucyandroger]

Date: 3/11/2009 2:08:43 PM
Author: dragonfly411
I think I am being slightly misinterpreted. Only slightly though. Tgal, I think the autopilot IS the problem. We go into autopilot too much, and normally it is as our brain begins to focus on one sole thing, be it job, a list of groceries, a birthday party we have to attend this weekend, what toy we're going to buy Billy tomorrow etc. We turn into autopilot mode and lose consciousness of the here and now and the here and now priority slips away.

The fact of it is though, the parents consciously put their child in the car, and went to autopilot, or got carried away with something, and forgot their child being there COMPLETELY. I understand forgetting small things. I completely understand forgetting the nipple thing, or scoops, I understand forgetting things at the grocery, forgetting to do things. I forgot to leave an important check for my grandma to drop off for our storage unit (not open outside my work hours so she runs it by) this morning, so now will be late. People forget things, but to forget a child in a car is something that shouldn't happen, and I think there needs to be an education system yes and I think alarms are a fantastic idea. I really hate the whole put your child in the backseat thing because it takes attention and focus away from them. But I also REALLY think that we become so caught up in our busy schedules and hit that auto pilot mode as we become focused on what we need to get done far far far too much, and we as people in general need to take the time to make sure this doesn't happen as much. I'd feel the same way about being on autopilot mentally and it resulting in a car accident. It puts another life at stake. In this case that life is tragically the person's own child, and it's sad to think that these parents let themselves lose consciousness in the here and now as they got caught up in their thoughts or whatever they might have been doing. The autopilot part IS the issue there, because the autopilot is what made them forget their child.

I certainly don't think these parents are murderers, or should be charged as such, but I do think it calls for charges of negligence and child endangerment. It should not happen, and parents should make sure to not get so carried away with things that they allow themselves to slip into auto pilot and forget everything but the one things that are in the forefront of their mind at that time. I don't think they made a conscious CHOICE to let something get in the way of the wellbeing of the child. They make a CHOICE in their priorities and in making work or phone conversations or other things such high priorities that they can forget all other things in the moment, they run that risk. In most of the scenarios presented, these were parents who were busy trying to multitask, or they were thinking of work work work. Go back and read the article and you'll see this. When those things are able to become so important that they erase all other thought (again leading us to the autopilot mode), is when people have problems, and when this could happen because again, the thought of the child being in the vehicle is no longer in the front of their head, but the office now is.

Do I think it makes these people criminals? no. Do I think that it is a terrible tragedy? yes. Do I think that there should be consequences for the parent? Most definitely. They neglected their child. Do I think they belong in prison? no. Do I think we all make mistakes? Yes. But this is one that results in a human life, a child life, their own child. No parent should have to experience that, but then again, no parent should let themselves get so caught up in their daily to dos or whatever that they go that far into an autopilot mentality that they forget their child being there. Ever. Working parent or not, that parent made the choice to bring this life into the world, and that child is their responsibility and they have to do everything they can to make sure they make that child their top priority (not ONLY priority... but top yes) in life. The work mentality, the what I need at the grocery, the what toy am I going to get, that all needs to wait until they arrive at the destination (I do not turn on my work mentality until I get there. Work is work, and my personal life is my personal life type of deal), not at home, not in the car on the way, not in the car on the way home.

I highlighted some things that don't really make sense to me about your post. First, I don't think you get the concept of autopilot. You don't go on autopilot from focusing on job, groceries, etc. You go on autopilot out of routine, like muslce memory. Second, you don't CHOOSE to go on autopilot like you claim. It is something the brain does automatically. Third, didn't you read basil's post? The part of your brain that prioritizes things is not the same part of your brain responsible for memory.

And your statement that you don't think these people are criminals confuses me. Why would you prosecute someone for a crime if you don't think they are a criminal?

I think what you're having trouble getting around is that just because something horrificly terrible happened and yes, it was the parent's fault does not mean that they could have prevented their brain from working the way it did.

That's NOT to say the deaths weren't preventable because they were. Just look at Cara's post for ways to prevent these tragedies from happening again. Human brains are flawed. That's all there is to it. Sure, it would be awesome if they weren't but they are. If we could all control the way our brains worked, we wouldn't feel angry, jealous, or sad. We would just stop thinking those thoughts. You would never have forgotten the check for your grandma or to let your horse out....

 

[TravelingGal]

Date: 3/11/2009 2:27:00 PM
Author: dragonfly411
Tgal - I don''t think I was making that implication at all. And yes my mind DOES work like that. When I''m off work I don''t want to think about it anymore, and when I''m home, I don''t focus on work. There is no reason to. I actually kindof get onto my aunt because she brings her work everywhere with her, including family vacation. It''s sad to see her not enjoying her time.
I guess I am of the here and now mentality. But I certainly am not arrogant enough to think that I think I know it all and I know how everyone should act. But I do think we can all agree that nothing should override one''s responsibility to one''s child.

dragonfly, I don''t know the nuances of the lives of the people in that article. I might guess that maybe they aren''t workholics and don''t want to think about work every minute of the day. They might have been distracted because they were thinking of something else, or nothing at all.

I''m of the here and now mentality too. But when I''m in the car, I''m not thinking, "OH JOY! I am here in the car with my baby now and must only think of how great it is to be in the car with my baby HERE AND NOW." My mind is going. Or blanking (although I do try and not let that happen because that''s the cause of a lot of accidents). As Cara said, parents have a lot to think about, much of it relating to how important their children are.

And sometimes, I do think about work when it''s off hours. I think, oh yeah! I''ve got a great idea for this project, better write that down and try to remember it in the meantime. I think about work because I need my job in a company that is going through a lot of transition. I need my job because we''re saving up to buy a house so my daughter is not sleeping in my home office with my fax machine. Not unlike the the points that Cara made in her post.

My daughter is almost a year old is everything I do is centered around my daughter these days. Pretty much EVERYTHING. I just don''t think about her (or look at her when I''m with her) every single minute though and that is where I know mistakes can happen to me.

 

[TravelingGal]

Date: 3/11/2009 2:30:58 PM
Author: basil
Dragonfly, what did you think of on your way into work this morning, presuming that you drive?

At least for me, it''s pretty darn near impossible for me to be simultaneously consciously thinking of more than one things at a time. Rapid alternating is one thing, but if you are really concentrating on anything else, you can''t be thinking about your kid''s whereabouts at the same time. And it''s impossible to think of nothing else, because you''d never get anything done in life.

As I said earlier in this thread, I''m a surgeon. I''m pretty sure my patients hope that I am not thinking ''where''s my kid? did I leave him in the car? where''s my kid? is he with the babysitter? where''s my kid? Is he safe?'' while I am operating on them, and I don''t think I could if I tried. So should I not have kids because they will not be on the forefront of my mind during those times?

Don''t know why, but this made me laugh. God, I hope you don''t!

 

[dragonfly411]

Date: 3/11/2009 2:30:58 PM
Author: basil
Dragonfly, what did you think of on your way into work this morning, presuming that you drive?


At least for me, it''s pretty darn near impossible for me to be simultaneously consciously thinking of more than one things at a time. Rapid alternating is one thing, but if you are really concentrating on anything else, you can''t be thinking about your kid''s whereabouts at the same time. And it''s impossible to think of nothing else, because you''d never get anything done in life.


As I said earlier in this thread, I''m a surgeon. I''m pretty sure my patients hope that I am not thinking ''where''s my kid? did I leave him in the car? where''s my kid? is he with the babysitter? where''s my kid? Is he safe?'' while I am operating on them, and I don''t think I could if I tried. So should I not have kids because they will not be on the forefront of my mind during those times?

On my way to work this morning: as I drove out of the driveway I checked to make sure the gate closed because lately we''ve had a problem with it not closing, noticed that the pot holes on my road were getting bigger, checked for traffic coming off the side road and noticed that there couldn''t be because there was a large truck removing tree branches blocking that end of the road and thought that some drivers were going to be mad. I sang a song as I drove to the end of the road, and mostly thought about that and noticed things outside the car as I drove by. I actually spent most of my drive in wondering where all this smoke is coming from, there is a brush fire north of us somewhere but it must have gotten bigger overnight b/c I was having trouble seeing, it was hazyish? well... Smokey lol. I also realized halfway to work that I forgot my check, called and let my grandmother know when I got to work so she wouldn''t worry. Other than that, mostly sang. I''m kind of a scaredy with driving so I check my mirrors and watch the road pretty cautiously, like I said, the one night, and my one fender bender were eye openers for me.

I don''t think you should have to be thinking that while in surgery, nor should any parent think that at work all day.I do think that most parents do have a thought once every now and again and I think that is healthy and important. When I''m at work I focus on work, and I think that is important as well. But try reversing that, and imagine the "am I going to be late to work? Did I turn off the coffee pot? What am I going to make for dinner tonight? I have this and this and this to do at work today? " but the child was forgotten in the deliberation of all you thought of as you went into autodrive as a driver. That''s what happens in these cases, to some degree. The parent goes into auto mode as they go into deeper thought of other things they have to get done or they have on their mind, and when they do the child is forgotten.


And I def don''t think an elderly person is the same thing here, I''m talking about parents.

And given that this mainly happens with small children/babies we can assume these parents aren''t past their early forties here. If they can focus that much on so many other things, then surely focusing on their child long enough to get them to daycare and make sure they don''t go into such an automated mentality that they forget their child is even there, shouldn''t happen. Plain and simple. Again, I don''t think they are murderers , but I do think it''s neglect.

 

[TravelingGal]

Date: 3/11/2009 2:31:07 PM
Author: decodelighted

Date: 3/11/2009 2:17:22 PM
Author: TravelingGal

Date: 3/11/2009 2:08:43 PM
Author: dragonfly411
that parent made the choice to bring this life into the world, and that child is their responsibility and they have to do everything they can to make sure they make that child their top priority (not ONLY priority... but top yes) in life. The work mentality, the what I need at the grocery, the what toy am I going to get, that all needs to wait until they arrive at the destination (I do not turn on my work mentality until I get there. Work is work, and my personal life is my personal life type of deal), not at home, not in the car on the way, not in the car on the way home.

Wow, I''m glad your mind works like that. Interesting that you think you know how other people''s minds should work as well.

Wow. Great for someone to be so perfectly focused! Try that after age 35 .. or 40 ... or what about these children''s grandparents? Might they suffer from some tragic memory loss or are they supposed to be perfectly disciplined & unflappable at all times too? Guess they should never babysit then. Just aren''t up to snuff.

Everyone who believes themselves infallible ... must. be. young. (And have a LIFETIME of humbling experiences ahead of them, sad to say)

Ha, leave it to you to say what I was thinking, but too polite (who me?) to say.

It''s not just age though. Some people just think they are more in control than they really are.

My mom is downstairs with my daughter (she watches her Wed-Fri.) My mom forgets a fair bit in her own life. Not crazy stuff, but just getting older kind of stuff. I could possibly be paranoid when it comes to my daughter. And I suppose at some point, my job is to weigh the risk. At this point in time, anything that may happen to my daughter as a result of my mom''s memory (she''s 69 this year) is outweighed by the fact of the joy those two have when they''re together.

Does it make me nervous from time to time? Sure. But we all have to live our lives the best way we can, even if means that something *may* happen to my daughter as a result of my decision.

 

[decodelighted]

Yeah ... it seems to be a disconnect here between people who believe good, normal, caring people can unwittingly cause HORRIFIC accidents & people who believe that horrific accidents are only caused by lazy or evil people.


ETA: And the simple act of becoming a parent doesn't give people super powers ... on the contrary ... EXHAUSTION is probably way more rampant amongst new, first time parents than their child-free counterparts. Tell yourself not to become exhausted/delirious when you've been up all night with a screaming baby ...

EETA: Other examples of horrific accidents that happen to good, normal, caring people: leaving a candle lit that sparks a housefire ... falling asleep at the wheel ... backing over a child/pet/spouse with your car ... losing your child in a store (mostly ends ok, sometimes not)

 

[TravelingGal]

Date: 3/11/2009 2:47:00 PM
Author: dragonfly411


On my way to work this morning: as I drove out of the driveway I checked to make sure the gate closed because lately we've had a problem with it not closing, noticed that the pot holes on my road were getting bigger, checked for traffic coming off the side road and noticed that there couldn't be because there was a large truck removing tree branches blocking that end of the road and thought that some drivers were going to be mad. I sang a song as I drove to the end of the road, and mostly thought about that and noticed things outside the car as I drove by. I actually spent most of my drive in wondering where all this smoke is coming from, there is a brush fire north of us somewhere but it must have gotten bigger overnight b/c I was having trouble seeing, it was hazyish? well... Smokey lol. I also realized halfway to work that I forgot my check, called and let my grandmother know when I got to work so she wouldn't worry. Other than that, mostly sang. I'm kind of a scaredy with driving so I check my mirrors and watch the road pretty cautiously, like I said, the one night, and my one fender bender were eye openers for me.

I don't think you should have to be thinking that while in surgery, nor should any parent think that at work all day.I do think that most parents do have a thought once every now and again and I think that is healthy and important. When I'm at work I focus on work, and I think that is important as well. But try reversing that, and imagine the 'am I going to be late to work? Did I turn off the coffee pot? What am I going to make for dinner tonight? I have this and this and this to do at work today? ' but the child was forgotten in the deliberation of all you thought of as you went into autodrive as a driver. That's what happens in these cases, to some degree. The parent goes into auto mode as they go into deeper thought of other things they have to get done or they have on their mind, and when they do the child is forgotten.


And I def don't think an elderly person is the same thing here, I'm talking about parents.

And given that this mainly happens with small children/babies we can assume these parents aren't past their early forties here. If they can focus that much on so many other things, then surely focusing on their child long enough to get them to daycare and make sure they don't go into such an automated mentality that they forget their child is even there, shouldn't happen. Plain and simple. Again, I don't think they are murderers , but I do think it's neglect.

Wow, you're brilliant...I can't even remember what I was thinking 3 minutes ago.

However, you just don't seem to understand that for some people you DON'T HAVE TO BE THINKING ANYTHING TO BE ON AUTOPILOT. You're BLANKING. Just functioning. I take it this has never happened to you because you dont seem to have a grasp on the concept.

 

[dragonfly411]

Lucy - I do understand autopilot, but normally the autopilot mode is in response to our brain activity focusing elsewhere. For instance, we go into autodrive, relying on our memory of a route, if for instance, we have to grab our coffee which has just spilled into our lap and is burning our skin.
Where are you getting the priority vs. memory? In my forgetting quotes? Let''s say you have three main priorities for a day. work, your child, and washing your car. You''re driving to work, you know those three priorities, and you begin to think of your work schedule, and what you need to get done to make sure that is taken care of. As you bring that priority to the forefront, you forget about the other things, because your brain is working to think of the things that you have to do for work... that''s what I was saying. I almost wonder if it can be looked at as two separate functions, remembering something you have to do right now, vs. past MEMORIES, because when you think about it, tasks, current things to do, and remembering to do them, are different from say " I remember my grandmother''s scent".
Tgal - I definitely understand where you are coming from with the Oh Joy I''m in the car part (kind of comical lol). I do understand that parents have a lot to think about, but what I''m saying is that a parent should not allow their minds to wander SO FAR off track that they completely auto drive and forget what they are doing, or whether their child is even there. You can think about things without allowing your mind to wander that far, and yes, it is something you either allow or not allow, whether you consciously think to yourself "I''m going to allow myself to think only of this" or not. I guess maybe like mental training?
For instance, a student trains their mind to be able to focus on many tasks for their classes. Or here is a good one.. a horseback rider, when in a class, must think of their hand position, body position, the horse''s position, their heels being down, etc, all the while being mindful of their track in the show (think of a jumping course here, they have to know the pattern of the course and not miss it).

 

[dragonfly411]

Tgal - I understand the blanking part. I look at autopilot or auto drive in this case as following a routine route as was given as an example. Blanking out is totally different. I blank out a lot while I''m painting, and yes have done so while I was driving (remember, red light? no particular thoughts going on there). But that person still is allowing their brain to override the current here and now of what they are supposed to be doing.

 

[vespergirl]

Date: 3/11/2009 2:00:51 PM
Author: elledizzy5

Date: 3/11/2009 1:57:59 PM
Author: vespergirl

Date: 3/11/2009 1:51:09 PM
Author: elledizzy5

Date: 3/11/2009 1:43:26 PM
Author: vespergirl
So if we''re all on the same page that ''lizard brain'' memory flaws can make people forget things that they would not normally forget if they are outside of the person''s regular daily routine. Some people feel that we should not be criminally liable for honestly forgetting things under such circumstances.

Say, then, that we apply this logic to a less dire situation. Tax day only comes around once a year - one could say, then, that filing your taxes is not part of one''s daily routine. If you honestly forget to file your taxes on April 15 because you were preoccupied with other things, the IRS still nails you with a penalty, since you were still legally responsible to file taxes by that date. Whether you intentionally ignored the dealine or honestly forgot is immaterial - we know that''s the day that taxes have to be filed, and if they are not filed on that day, for whatever reason, we have to pay the consequences. Obviously in the tax situation it''s only a monetary penalty, but it still needs to be paid - the IRS can''t excuse the cases where it was an innocent mistake, or people everywhere could be claiming innocent mistakes.

When you approach it as a logic argument, as applied to our legal system, ''I forgot'' is simply not an excuse, even if it''s the truth. The same laws need to apply to everyone when the law is broken.

I do truly believe that those parents did not intend to leave their children in the cars, or for their children to be harmed. I even do honestly believe that they truly forgot. It still does not change the fact that they broke the law and killed someone. I don''t think that they belong in jail, and I think that some parents were acquited. I still think that they all need to be prosecuted, and let the judge decide.

I disagree with this analogy for a couple of reasons.

1. You are given plenty of time to pay your taxes, with constant reminders. It''s all over TV, you receive documents in the mail, and you have over 2 months to remember. So forgetting your taxes isn''t a split-second bad memory decision. It''s purposeful procrastination that leads one to ''forget'' their taxes.

2. The IRS imposes that penalty because if everyone could ''forget'' their taxes, they would. On purpose. To keep their money. I can pretty much guarantee that in 100% of accidental cases of deaths of children that were left in the car, NO ONE would continue to forget their child, if given the chance to go back.

And again, I don''t see how criminalization of this deters future occurences, which, IMO, should be the reason to criminalize ANYTHING.

Not necessarily - perhaps your taxes were in an envelope, sealed, signed, and ready to go, and you just forgot to drop them in the mailbox on the way home because your were tired or distracted, or maybe you actually thought that you already did drop it off until you looked in your backseat the next day - exact same situation as these parents with their babies.

Most times, it is purposeful procrastination. And if it''s not... I still have to compare...

Assuming you owe money, anyone would put off delaying payment to the IRS.

No one would choose to leave their kid in a car to cook. Unless they''re sick in the head, and intended to, but that is not what we''re talking about, and those cases would and should be prosecuted.

In my example the person would be receiving a $5000 refund if filed on time. Every intent was to drop the envelope on the mail in time, in order to get the refund check. Just forgot.

 

[hisdiamondgirl]

Date: 3/11/2009 3:06:46 PM
Author: vespergirl

Date: 3/11/2009 2:00:51 PM
Author: elledizzy5

Date: 3/11/2009 1:57:59 PM
Author: vespergirl

Date: 3/11/2009 1:51:09 PM
Author: elledizzy5

Date: 3/11/2009 1:43:26 PM
Author: vespergirl
So if we're all on the same page that 'lizard brain' memory flaws can make people forget things that they would not normally forget if they are outside of the person's regular daily routine. Some people feel that we should not be criminally liable for honestly forgetting things under such circumstances.

Say, then, that we apply this logic to a less dire situation. Tax day only comes around once a year - one could say, then, that filing your taxes is not part of one's daily routine. If you honestly forget to file your taxes on April 15 because you were preoccupied with other things, the IRS still nails you with a penalty, since you were still legally responsible to file taxes by that date. Whether you intentionally ignored the dealine or honestly forgot is immaterial - we know that's the day that taxes have to be filed, and if they are not filed on that day, for whatever reason, we have to pay the consequences. Obviously in the tax situation it's only a monetary penalty, but it still needs to be paid - the IRS can't excuse the cases where it was an innocent mistake, or people everywhere could be claiming innocent mistakes.

When you approach it as a logic argument, as applied to our legal system, 'I forgot' is simply not an excuse, even if it's the truth. The same laws need to apply to everyone when the law is broken.

I do truly believe that those parents did not intend to leave their children in the cars, or for their children to be harmed. I even do honestly believe that they truly forgot. It still does not change the fact that they broke the law and killed someone. I don't think that they belong in jail, and I think that some parents were acquited. I still think that they all need to be prosecuted, and let the judge decide.

I disagree with this analogy for a couple of reasons.

1. You are given plenty of time to pay your taxes, with constant reminders. It's all over TV, you receive documents in the mail, and you have over 2 months to remember. So forgetting your taxes isn't a split-second bad memory decision. It's purposeful procrastination that leads one to 'forget' their taxes.

2. The IRS imposes that penalty because if everyone could 'forget' their taxes, they would. On purpose. To keep their money. I can pretty much guarantee that in 100% of accidental cases of deaths of children that were left in the car, NO ONE would continue to forget their child, if given the chance to go back.

And again, I don't see how criminalization of this deters future occurences, which, IMO, should be the reason to criminalize ANYTHING.

Not necessarily - perhaps your taxes were in an envelope, sealed, signed, and ready to go, and you just forgot to drop them in the mailbox on the way home because your were tired or distracted, or maybe you actually thought that you already did drop it off until you looked in your backseat the next day - exact same situation as these parents with their babies.

Most times, it is purposeful procrastination. And if it's not... I still have to compare...

Assuming you owe money, anyone would put off delaying payment to the IRS.

No one would choose to leave their kid in a car to cook. Unless they're sick in the head, and intended to, but that is not what we're talking about, and those cases would and should be prosecuted.

In my example the person would be receiving a $5000 refund if filed on time. Every intent was to drop the envelope on the mail in time, in order to get the refund check. Just forgot.

You are not penalized for filing a late tax return if you are due a refund.