Children dying in hot cars - mistake or crime?

[lindsaylove]

Date: 3/11/2009 4:59:03 PM
Author: dragonfly411
I never once said I was infallible and have pointed out myself that I am not. But you cannot excuse this as just forgetting. 'I just forgot my child was in the car, and now she's dead' it dose not work that way. Whether the parent was thrown out of routine, whether they went into auto drive, whether they blanked out, they still forgot to take the child, or get the child out of the car, they forgot the child's presence with them, they forgot to make a turn. THEY FORGOT. Routine or not. I'm not going to keep arguing this, esp if it's going to turn into everyone telling me what I think I am (I'm perfectly capable and mature enough to think and realize that I am not perfect, no one is). The fact of it is, these children were forgotten, left in the cars to die a horrifying death, probably wondering where their mommies or daddies were, and it is negligence. Whether you agree with me or not is your deal, but I cannot excuse it as a matter of simply 'forgetting' or 'getting knocked off of routine'. Not in the case of a life. Again, a parent forgets their gun is out, that is not excusable. Forgetting your child's presence in the car, going into auto drive and not remembering to make a turn, is not excusable to me. And everyone I've spoken with in person about the matter so far has agreed. So, again, not going to argue about it. I do think we are perfectly capable of remaining conscious enough, in the present enough, mindful enough to make sure our child is not left in a car to die. If other things become that important, or you get that overwhelmed, or you get that thrown off by one little thing that you lose all conscious thought of where you are supposed to be going (and again if you read the article most of these parents were heavily distracted, or simply Were NOT THINKING), then you are neglecting your duty as a parent. It's as plain as that to me.

Where are you coming up with this stuff? Other things becoming "more important"? What? At this point there is no reason to disagree with you anymore on this because you keep going back to this baseless argument.

Look at it this way. I'm fairly young and don't have children yet either. I wouldn't automatically think I could be one of those parents in the article "capable" of "forgetting" my child and putting him or her in danger of death. But guess what, no one thinks they are! And it still happens. Why not just be willing to accept that you don't know everything and that maybe, just maybe, one day you may be so exhausted and over worked, all the while STILL keeping your child your top priority, one day you may forget to do a tiny task that could lead to them being left in a dangerous situation? It is absolutley possible. Maintaining that it isn't is just naive.

ETA: I'd say the best way to be totally 100% aware of what is truly important is to acknowledge that you are not perfect and are therefore capable of making mistakes - big and small. A parent who does acknowledge this is possible IS making their child their top priority and focusing on what is truly important. Awareness of all dangerous possibilities - even those that could be caused by yourself.

 

[lucyandroger]

Date: 3/11/2009 4:48:19 PM
Author: TravelingGal

Date: 3/11/2009 4:37:49 PM
Author: lucyandroger

Date: 3/11/2009 4:18:57 PM
Author: dragonfly411
Lucy - I don''t think we can control everything our brain does, but I do think that we as humans are completely capable of making sure something that important stays in our mind so that we don''t forget. If we do forget, it is negligence on the part of the parent towards their child.

Basil has pretty much said it all, along wth Cara and Tgal and others. So I think I''m done ''beating the dead horse'' (I hate that expression). No matter how many times we say that they didn''t just ''forget'' their child, you don''t really seem to get it.

Even having brought up your own experiences of a break in routine throwing you off, you still seem to think you''re infallable. For your sake and your future children''s sake, I hope that''s true. And if not, I hope you learn that in a less fatal way than these parents did. Myself, I''m going to learn the lesson through their mistakes and do my best to take precautions for when my brain doesn''t work quite right. I am human after all...

Why is the horse dead? Who forgot to let it out?

Thanks, Tgal. I needed that laugh!

And thank you, Neatfreak.

 

[basil]

Date: 3/11/2009 4:59:03 PM
Author: dragonfly411
If other things become that important, or you get that overwhelmed, or you get that thrown off by one little thing that you lose all conscious thought of where you are supposed to be going (and again if you read the article most of these parents were heavily distracted, or simply Were NOT THINKING), then you are neglecting your duty as a parent. It''s as plain as that to me.

You keep saying that if you forget your child, it''s because something else was more important. We''ve just demonstrated that you forgot your grandmother''s check, not because getting to work early or smelling the flowers was more important, but because it threw you off your routine and you walked out the door and drove to work without it.

Yes, less people forget their children in the car than forget to mail checks, for a variety of reasons. That doesn''t mean that people who forget their children were any more preoccupied than people who forget checks.

 

[TravelingGal]

Date: 3/11/2009 2:30:13 PM
Author: dragonfly411
Tgal - question for you, do you think that a woman on a cell phone who runs through a light b/c she''s on auto pilot and thinking about work is less to blame if she causes an accident? Because that''s kindof the same mentality I''m thinking of. I just want to know if we''re kindof thinking of the same thing. I''m guilty of halfway running a red light because I was on autodrive at night, didn''t cause an accident but it was a big wake up call for me. I wasn''t on the phone mind you. But I''m wondering if you think the autopilot excuse would work elsewhere? Because that autopilot mode caused the child to die. If the woman used the same excuse ''I was in auto mode, It was an honest mistake, I just forgot to check the light'' in a car accident, I don''t think she''d be let off for it, esp if it resulted in harm or death. For me that auto is the same mentality on both pages, is it for you? Again, just making sure we aren''t thinking of different things here.

I just saw this post. So you don''t think I''m ignoring it, I''ll answer.

If I did that and caused my own child to die, and I wasn''t talking on the phone (illegal), I''m pretty sure I wouldn''t get prosecuted it (someone can correct me if I''m wrong). If I were on the phone, which is illegal, then I would imagine there would be some looking into. Not speaking from knowledge of fact. It''s just a guess.

If I did that and caused someone ELSE''s kid (or just generally anyone else) to die, I would imagine I would get prosecuted for something.

Basically there is no black and white answer. As Alj said, there is room for interpretation in the law. We are in disagreement because I am looking at this child in the carseat thing on a case by case basis. I don''t think it works to put blanket statements out there. I don''t think it''s the same as forgetting taxes, or whatever. People probably do run lights and cause accidents every day. While leaving your kid in the car happens, it doesn''t happen every day and I do see the circumstances as being different. I just refuse to paint it all with the same brush. You''re trying to find the logic, and I''m saying things happen that aren''t logical.

So no, we are not on the same page, as I believe that''s been pretty obvious since we started this discussion.

 

[TravelingGal]

Date: 3/11/2009 5:00:30 PM
Author: vespergirl


I still see this as gross negligence, even if it''s totally unintentional. I find the crime even more unconscionable because it''s parents, who''s job as legal guardians is not to forget their children, and if that includes putting safeguards in place, then that should have been done. For myself, I always had one of those mirrors that you mount to the back seat so that I could see my son in the rearview mirror when he was still rear-facing. I also stow my stuff in the back seat, so I would always go to the back seat whenever leaving the car.

Vesper, not trying to be cheeky here, but why would you bother with these precautions if you think (and have claimed) that it would not happen to you?

 

[vespergirl]

Date: 3/11/2009 5:39:53 PM
Author: TravelingGal

Date: 3/11/2009 5:00:30 PM
Author: vespergirl


I still see this as gross negligence, even if it''s totally unintentional. I find the crime even more unconscionable because it''s parents, who''s job as legal guardians is not to forget their children, and if that includes putting safeguards in place, then that should have been done. For myself, I always had one of those mirrors that you mount to the back seat so that I could see my son in the rearview mirror when he was still rear-facing. I also stow my stuff in the back seat, so I would always go to the back seat whenever leaving the car.

Vesper, not trying to be cheeky here, but why would you bother with these precautions if you think (and have claimed) that it would not happen to you?

I''ve always done those things (far before I had heard of these cases) because they are the types of things that responsible parents do. I put in the mirror when he was rearfacing so I could check on him when I drive. I also keep his stroller and harness in the back, and since I am his primary caretaker, and have him with me at all times, I always need either the stroller or harness when we get out of the car, along with my diaper bag. Since I never go anywhere without him, I always need to get those things out of the car.

 

[vespergirl]

Date: 3/11/2009 5:39:53 PM
Author: TravelingGal

Date: 3/11/2009 5:00:30 PM
Author: vespergirl


I still see this as gross negligence, even if it''s totally unintentional. I find the crime even more unconscionable because it''s parents, who''s job as legal guardians is not to forget their children, and if that includes putting safeguards in place, then that should have been done. For myself, I always had one of those mirrors that you mount to the back seat so that I could see my son in the rearview mirror when he was still rear-facing. I also stow my stuff in the back seat, so I would always go to the back seat whenever leaving the car.

Vesper, not trying to be cheeky here, but why would you bother with these precautions if you think (and have claimed) that it would not happen to you?

And I just noticed the snarky insinuation. Trust me, I have never forgetten my son anywhere, for any length of time. Maybe some parents are the absent-minded type, but I am not.

 

[TravelingGal]

Date: 3/11/2009 6:35:19 PM
Author: vespergirl

Date: 3/11/2009 5:39:53 PM
Author: TravelingGal

Date: 3/11/2009 5:00:30 PM
Author: vespergirl


I still see this as gross negligence, even if it''s totally unintentional. I find the crime even more unconscionable because it''s parents, who''s job as legal guardians is not to forget their children, and if that includes putting safeguards in place, then that should have been done. For myself, I always had one of those mirrors that you mount to the back seat so that I could see my son in the rearview mirror when he was still rear-facing. I also stow my stuff in the back seat, so I would always go to the back seat whenever leaving the car.

Vesper, not trying to be cheeky here, but why would you bother with these precautions if you think (and have claimed) that it would not happen to you?

And I just noticed the snarky insinuation. Trust me, I have never forgetten my son anywhere, for any length of time. Maybe some parents are the absent-minded type, but I am not.

Actually, I wasn''t being snarky there. I put that there because I wanted to make sure I wasn''t putting words in your mouth, so I went back and checked that you did say you didn''t think it wouldn''t happen to you or SAHMs. I wasn''t saying that you claimed it HASN''T happened to you, but that it WOULDN''T happen to you.

So no snark, believe it or not.

 

[decodelighted]

Date: 3/11/2009 6:35:19 PM
Author: vespergirl
Maybe some parents are the absent-minded type, but I am not.

Keep on congratulating yourself ... right into complacency. Though I hope you don''t become complacent. And that you never find out just how easy it is to be fatally wrong about something.

 

[vespergirl]

Date: 3/11/2009 6:41:28 PM
Author: decodelighted

Date: 3/11/2009 6:35:19 PM
Author: vespergirl
Maybe some parents are the absent-minded type, but I am not.

Keep on congratulating yourself ... right into complacency. Though I hope you don''t become complacent. And that you never find out just how easy it is to be fatally wrong about something.

Well, I do think I do a good job of being an involved and conscientious parent, so thanks. Since I made the choice to give up my career to give my full attention to my child, and I supervise him all day, every day, I do feel that I do all I can keep him safe - babyproofing the house, buying the safest car on the market, video monitors, etc.

I personally hope that people who are more stressed, busy, exhausted and distracted than myself also do all that they can to care for their kids and keep them safe, and not be too busy multitasking with work issues to remember their childrens whereabouts. I think those folks may need reminding as well, so lets not leave them out, right?

 

[TravelingGal]

Date: 3/11/2009 7:02:32 PM
Author: vespergirl

Date: 3/11/2009 6:41:28 PM
Author: decodelighted

Date: 3/11/2009 6:35:19 PM
Author: vespergirl
Maybe some parents are the absent-minded type, but I am not.

Keep on congratulating yourself ... right into complacency. Though I hope you don''t become complacent. And that you never find out just how easy it is to be fatally wrong about something.

Well, I do think I do a good job of being an involved and conscientious parent, so thanks. Since I made the choice to give up my career to give my full attention to my child, and I supervise him all day, every day, I do feel that I do all I can keep him safe - babyproofing the house, buying the safest car on the market, video monitors, etc.

I personally hope that people who are more stressed, busy, exhausted and distracted than myself also do all that they can to care for their kids and keep them safe, and not be too busy multitasking with work issues to remember their childrens whereabouts. I think those folks may need reminding as well, so lets not leave them out, right?

Ah! Was that your high horse that we beat to death?

Now that was snark. In a lighthearted way, really.

Kudos to you for taking precautions. We all should be doing our best in that arena. I do sense though that you have some kind of issue with people who don''t stay at home or something? Which would be sad because you don''t like it when they judge you. You had a choice, that''s fab. Some people don''t.

Babyproofing is great. Just don''t use it as a reason to turn your eye away for second, because you don''t, right? Not even for a second? Your eyes are ALWAYS on your kid? And you never ever talk on your cell phone in that safe car? Or go over the speed limit? You can do all of the things you mentioned and it is not a guarantee that something won''t happen that *might* be your fault anyway.

But as you said, you do all you can do and that''s all anyone could ask. And I don''t think even you could stare at your kid ALL day for every minute in order to keep him safe.

 

[basil]

Date: 3/11/2009 7:02:32 PM
Author: vespergirl

Date: 3/11/2009 6:41:28 PM

Author: decodelighted

Date: 3/11/2009 6:35:19 PM

Author: vespergirl

Maybe some parents are the absent-minded type, but I am not.

Keep on congratulating yourself ... right into complacency. Though I hope you don''t become complacent. And that you never find out just how easy it is to be fatally wrong about something.

Well, I do think I do a good job of being an involved and conscientious parent, so thanks. Since I made the choice to give up my career to give my full attention to my child, and I supervise him all day, every day, I do feel that I do all I can keep him safe - babyproofing the house, buying the safest car on the market, video monitors, etc.


I personally hope that people who are more stressed, busy, exhausted and distracted than myself also do all that they can to care for their kids and keep them safe, and not be too busy multitasking with work issues to remember their childrens whereabouts. I think those folks may need reminding as well, so lets not leave them out, right?

Do you think that your husband is capable of forgetting your child? Presumably, he works and can''t give his "full attention" to your child, and has to do more multitasking than you do. But I assume you''d trust him if for whatever reason he had to drop off your son somewhere on his way to work...

 

[luckystar112]

Let me start by saying that I DO believe it can happen to anyone and that I am not so proud to think it won''t happen to me.
But I agree with Vesper that it is an issue of forgetfulness. I know that offends some, but I guess there is just no acceptable way in the english language to express it without it coming across bad.

The way my mind works, I could totally see myself strapping my kid in the car, driving down the road and just start thinking. A progressive train of thought...
"I need coffee"
"That coffee at that little cafe was amazing" (I had the coffee with Tina).
"I wonder if Tina ever returned that skirt like she said she was going to..."
"I never return clothing, too much hassle....I just deal with it"
"Speaking of clothing, I need that dress for that fundraiser next week"
"George is going to be there. Ugh. Can''t stand that man"
"His wife is so nice though"
"I remember that time she brought us cookies"
"Cookies! Shoot! Tanya needs them for her bake sale. I''ll pick up the ingredients after work"
"Ah, work. Dammit, Susan stole my space. AGAIN."

kwim?
So in a way, yes, you forgot that your kid was even in the car. At least in my mind, that''s how I see it happening. And if it ever happens to me (God forbid) I''m pretty sure that''s how it would go down.

 

[cara]

Date: 3/11/2009 2:08:43 PM
Author: dragonfly411
I think I am being slightly misinterpreted. Only slightly though. Tgal, I think the autopilot IS the problem. We go into autopilot too much, and normally it is as our brain begins to focus on one sole thing, be it job, a list of groceries, a birthday party we have to attend this weekend, what toy we''re going to buy Billy tomorrow etc. We turn into autopilot mode and lose consciousness of the here and now and the here and now priority slips away.

I don''t want to beat the horse too much, but this autopilot thing is just wrong.

Autopilot is an important and integral part of our function as humans. Obviously our conscious thinking is important to being human to, but its only by designating thousands upon thousands of smaller tasks to your more primitive brain structures that our conscious mind is in a position to have deep, human thoughts. Autopilot is why you can walk and talk at the same time. Long ago at some young age, you started programming your lizard brain with the complicated tasks necessary for bipedal locomotion: Use visual clues and signals from inner ear to assess balance and position in world. Send signals to legs, feet, torso about what to do. Get feedback from sensors in feet about that object under my foot. Readjust position to try to stay upright. Wave hands, stiffen legs to compensate for rapidly changing position... etc.

You don''t have to think about these things any more because they are on autopilot AND THAT IS A GOOD THING. I don''t have to hunt and peck any more on the keyboard to find my keys, or even to think very hard about how to spell anything cause the process is all automatic. I can instead think about what I want to say. If suddenly I encounter a word I don''t know how to spell automatically, everything slows down and the word I want to write rises into my foremost consciousness, displacing the sentence I was thinking about writing, and then I think and come up with a spelling for the difficult word, send it off to my lizard brain controlling the exact instructions to my fingers about how to type, and I return to the larger task of finishing the sentence. Autopilot enables me to type without thinking about the act of typing itself.

It also makes driving immeasurably safer. OK, there is also a risk to driving on autopilot alone because *some* driving tasks require your full attention, but many, many components of driving are best designated to lower levels of consciousness. Do you remember learning to drive? How hard it was? How even when your entire consciousness was devoted to thinking about driving and trying to drive it was a slow, difficult, and somewhat dangerous process? That''s because nothing had yet been programmed onto autopilot. Imagine a new driver on the highway gets cut off. They might be thinking: oh that car is moving out of their lane. Oh they are moving into my lane! Oh, they are going slow. Oh they are going too slow, I am going to hit them if this keeps up! What do I do? I think I have to brake! [moves foot to brake, slams on brakes too hard, risks getting rear ended.] An experienced driver doesn''t have to go through that long slow thought process because its all preprogrammed in the lizard brain. Visual processing center identified car cutting you off, bypasses conscious thought and directly instructs foot to brake. Braking is smooth and appropriate rather than jerky cause you''ve done it 1000 times before and the brain is executing some pre-programmed subroutine that is one of hundreds of smaller driving tasks it knows how to do without thinking about the specifics.

Turns out driving is fairly brain-intensive and while easy portions can be done on autopilot and allow the conscious mind to wonder to other things, occasionally difficult driving tasks pop up that require the full brain even in an experienced driver. That''s why you shouldn''t talk on the cell phone or get too carried away with whatever you are thinking about - certain hard driving tasks require your full attention but that is to supplement all the many things that can be handled safely and quickly by automatic brain processes. If you didn''t rely on autopilot on a regular, ongoing basis, I submit that you would not be able to function in this world.

 

[vespergirl]

Date: 3/11/2009 7:30:10 PM
Author: basil

Date: 3/11/2009 7:02:32 PM
Author: vespergirl

Date: 3/11/2009 6:41:28 PM

Author: decodelighted

Date: 3/11/2009 6:35:19 PM

Author: vespergirl

Maybe some parents are the absent-minded type, but I am not.

Keep on congratulating yourself ... right into complacency. Though I hope you don''t become complacent. And that you never find out just how easy it is to be fatally wrong about something.

Well, I do think I do a good job of being an involved and conscientious parent, so thanks. Since I made the choice to give up my career to give my full attention to my child, and I supervise him all day, every day, I do feel that I do all I can keep him safe - babyproofing the house, buying the safest car on the market, video monitors, etc.


I personally hope that people who are more stressed, busy, exhausted and distracted than myself also do all that they can to care for their kids and keep them safe, and not be too busy multitasking with work issues to remember their childrens whereabouts. I think those folks may need reminding as well, so lets not leave them out, right?

Do you think that your husband is capable of forgetting your child? Presumably, he works and can''t give his ''full attention'' to your child, and has to do more multitasking than you do. But I assume you''d trust him if for whatever reason he had to drop off your son somewhere on his way to work...

My husband leaves for work 2 hrs. before my son wakes up, so that situation has never occurred. However, I do implicity trust my husband with our child. I wouldn''t have reproduced with someone if I did not find him to be responsible enough to care for a child.

 

[decodelighted]

Date: 3/11/2009 10:11:59 PM
Author: vespergirl
My husband leaves for work 2 hrs. before my son wakes up, so that situation has never occurred. However, I do implicity trust my husband with our child. I wouldn't have reproduced with someone if I did not find him to be responsible enough to care for a child.

Yeah ... all those women who married people they THOUGHT would let their kid drown in the pool ... or get mauled by the dog ... or slip from their fingers onto a hard tub were SO STUPID!!! You rule!!! Where can we buy your miracle know-all-in-advance superior judgment pills?

This is becoming insufferable.

 

[trillionaire]

I haven't read this whole thread, but I bet a good number of the people on this thread either, a.) were left or forgotten at school or somewhere at least once in life (or your sibs were) or b.) you WILL forget to pick up a child at school or elsewhere at least once in life.

Every kid I know has that story. Seriously. (good thing 6 yr olds have cell phones now!

)

No parent is perfect, everyone does the best they can.

 

[FrekeChild]

It is 4:30am here. I have skimmed in places and I have plain ol' skipped over in places. But one thing truly disturbs me, and that is the seemingly complete lack of compassion for the parents of these children from some of these posters. I will get to that later.

I am not a parent myself, and daresay that someday if I happen to become one, I entirely expect myself to royally screw up. I am completely fallible. I can see myself forgetting a child in a backseat because of my ADHD and my inability to maintain any kind of steady thought process for more than 5 minutes. Is this because I am neglectful? No. It's because my brain doesn't work well. But none of our brains work perfectly, mine is just worse than some. Is this because my hypothetical children will not be biological and I won't have a primal connection with them? No. It's because I'm human and I am FAR from fallible. And at least I know and can acknowledge that.

It certainly doesn't hurt that I've taken a Brain and Behavior class (which I would HIGHLY recommend for you dragonfly) and will end up taking a Learning and Memory class before I graduate, and have LEARNED just how fallible the human mind is. And daresay, ALL HUMAN MINDS ARE FALLIBLE. Memories can be created. Which is one reason that eyewitness testimony is basically thrown out in most courts of law. Autopilot is something your brain just does, basil and others have gone into this more than I will. But suffice it to say that you have given your brain entirely too much credit. No matter what, it is doing many many many more tasks than you are giving it credit for, because you don't have to think about what it's doing and you certainly don't have time to think about the tasks you would have to tell it to do if you were in complete control of it. All those involuntary things you're doing? Like breathing and your heart beating--that brain stem is hard at work. And you aren't thinking about that are you? Those muscles controlling your fingers? You're not thinking about moving each one. And there are SO. MANY. MORE. THINGS. GOING. ON. IN. YOUR. BRAIN. AND. YOU. DON'T. CONSCIOUSLY. HAVE. TO. CONSIDER. THEM. BECAUSE. THE. HUMAN. BRAIN. IS. ACTUALLY. PRETTY. SELF. SUFFICIENT.

As for the parents...I take it that no one who has responded so far has lost a child. I hope not at least. I have not (obviously) but I am the daughter of someone who has. My brother Mike, died at the age of 24 from brain cancer. I was 2 years old at the time, which means this was around 25 years ago. My father, who has no blame in my brother dying, cannot speak of his son because his grief is so deep. His agony is so palpable that whenever I've read of someone not caring about how the parents felt, I have started to cry because of what I have seen him go through. I know for a fact that my father would have given his life to save his son, and I cannot imagine the pain that he goes through when thinking about how his child died many years before my dad will. I cannot FATHOM what my father would have been like if he had even partly been to blame for Mike's death. As it is, he cannot forgive himself for Mike being gone, and him still being here. It is a wound that has never and will never close.

From observing my dad, I can tell you that those parents' thought processes are likely the same, only they have to live with the fact that THEY KILLED THEIR KID. Sticking them in jail? Not going to do anything but displace them from the place where they'd STILL be thinking about their child. Making them do community service? Nothing compared to how they'll torture themselves thinking about what lil' Johnny would be doing right now if they hadn't had their mind slip and "let" their brain trick them into thinking that they had dropped Johnny off at daycare.

So while you're thinking you're infallible, think about the consequences of what happened if YOU messed up. Think about what it might be like to lose your child. And then think about what it would be like to be responsible for their death. And you might be at 1% of what those parents really feel.

 

[Deelight]

Without reading the whole thread, I agree it could happen to anyone - no one is infallible people make mistakes. I don’t want to pass judgement as I have no idea what these parents are dealing with because thankfully this has never happened to me or anyone I know.

The parents of these children will without a doubt be living a nightmare within their own heads for the rest of their lives – the thought that you (by making a mistake) cost the life of your child – I couldn’t imagine a worst pain or sentence.

Freke I am sorry for the loss of your brother and for you Dad – *BIG HUGS*

 

[swimmer]

Freke, I am so sorry for your family''s loss. My brother and older sister were killed and my younger sister lost her battle with cancer; as a result, mom is still only partially alive.

In reading this entire thread it is so sad to see how judgemental some people''s responses are. Perhaps they do not mean it that way, but here is the thing about people. We are all human. Humans are fallible. We have free will and with that awesome ability comes the consequence of mistakes. None of us are divine; we are doomed to make small and horrible mistakes. What we do have control of is forgiveness of others. To not exercise that choice is to kill a small part of yourself.

 

[iheartscience]

Great posts, Freke and swimmer. (As well as TGal and Alj and cara and many others.)

 

[vespergirl]

Date: 3/11/2009 10:32:28 PM
Author: decodelighted

Date: 3/11/2009 10:11:59 PM
Author: vespergirl
My husband leaves for work 2 hrs. before my son wakes up, so that situation has never occurred. However, I do implicity trust my husband with our child. I wouldn''t have reproduced with someone if I did not find him to be responsible enough to care for a child.

Yeah ... all those women who married people they THOUGHT would let their kid drown in the pool ... or get mauled by the dog ... or slip from their fingers onto a hard tub were SO STUPID!!! You rule!!! Where can we buy your miracle know-all-in-advance superior judgment pills?

This is becoming insufferable.

Actually, I do know women who don''t leave their children alone for a day with their "absent-minded professor" type husbands, because they don''t trust them to watch them as carefully as they would like.

 

[vespergirl]

In order to answer my original question, mistake or crime, I though that I would post some statistics for childhyperthermia deaths in cars in 2008. The statistics show that this is incredibly rare (42 dead last year) of the millions of kids who are strapped into car seats every day. There is an infintesimal chance of this happening to anyone - and I''m sure that most of the children who are strapped into car seats and NOT forgotten also have parents that are stressed, sleep-deprived and distracted, yet they don''t forget their kids. That''s why the "it can happen to anyone" argument is weak to me - there are million of parents with circumstances identical to theirs that don''t bake their kids in cars every day - which makes me think that there''s something particular to those parents circumstances or brain wiring that are not just like any other busy working parent''s. If it could so easily happen, then why doesn''t it happen more frequently?

http://ggweather.com/heat/

An examination of media reports about the 361 child vehicular hyperthermia deaths for a ten year period (1998 through 2007) shows the following circumstances:
51% - child "forgotten" by caregiver
30% - child playing in unattended vehicle
18% - child intentionally left in vehicle by adult
1% - circumstances unknown

Only 14 states have laws prohibiting leaving a child unattended in a vehicle.
The remaining 36 states do not have laws specifically against leaving a child unattended in a vehicle
Currently 9 states have proposed legislation that would make it a crime to leave a child unattended in a vehicle
Another 7 states have had previously proposed unattended child laws
These statistics tell me that people are starting to view this as a crime, not a mistake
- Charges were files in 49% of all the deaths. 81% resulted in convictions.
The above statistic states (if applied to last year''s numbers) that of the 42 children who died, 21 of them had parents charged with their deaths. Of those about 16 of them were convicted. So, this objectively proves that many judges and juries do find this to be a crime, whether or not it was intentional.
- In cases with paid caregivers (i.e., childcare workers, babysitters) 84% were charged and 96% convicted
- Only 7% of the cases involved drugs or alcohol

 

[lucyandroger]

Date: 3/12/2009 10:10:20 AM
Author: vespergirl


In order to answer my original question, mistake or crime, I though that I would post some statistics for childhyperthermia deaths in cars in 2008. The statistics show that this is incredibly rare (42 dead last year) of the millions of kids who are strapped into car seats every day. There is an infintesimal chance of this happening to anyone - and I'm sure that most of the children who are strapped into car seats and NOT forgotten also have parents that are stressed, sleep-deprived and distracted, yet they don't forget their kids. That's why the 'it can happen to anyone' argument is weak to me - there are million of parents with circumstances identical to theirs that don't bake their kids in cars every day - which makes me think that there's something particular to those parents circumstances or brain wiring that are not just like any other busy working parent's. If it could so easily happen, then why doesn't it happen more frequently?

Oh, Vespergirl. Your attempt to grab any data and completely misinterpret it to support your position is just mind boggling to me. But yet I feel the need to respond...

Let's start with the facts as you present them:

- 42 children died last year from hyperthermia because they were left in a car
- Millions of children are strapped into car seats and are not left in the car to die

Now this is where your logic (if we can call it that) is way off.

-Just because only 42 children died last year does NOT mean that similar incidents did not occur in which the children (thank god) did not die. Steph72276 mentioned that her mom forgot to drop her off one day and my mom told me a similar story. In both of our cases, when our moms got to work, they realized we were still in the car, turned around and dropped us off. Clearly, we did not die. I'm sure we are not the only ones.

-Just because something is rare does not mean that it CANNOT happen. And for me, this is your most dangerous argument - the one the article is trying to put to rest. Rare things happen and that is why as parents, we have to be careful and take the appropriate precautions so they don't happen to us.

-And your argument that there is something particular to those parents circumstances or brain-wiring? Well, the article had doctors and scientists tell you there weren't; they said that all our brains can work that way. People on the forum have told you that their brains work that way. You just don't want to hear it. You want to believe that it could not possibly happen to you and that's fine. We all hope it doesn't.

-And even if you had a super brain, empathy is all about putting ourselves in other people's positions and trying to understand where they're coming from. If these people had faulty brain-wiring, would you still demonize them and call them terrible parents who don't prioritize their children? Anticipating your argument - Yes, the children suffered painful deaths and yes, we ALL empathize with the excruciating pain they went through. Most of us ALSO empathize with the loss and guilt the parents already feel without people making baseless accusations about their priorities and brain functions.

 

[lucyandroger]

Date: 3/12/2009 10:10:20 AM
Author: vespergirl

http://ggweather.com/heat/

An examination of media reports about the 361 child vehicular hyperthermia deaths for a ten year period (1998 through 2007) shows the following circumstances:

51% - child ''forgotten'' by caregiver
30% - child playing in unattended vehicle
18% - child intentionally left in vehicle by adult
1% - circumstances unknown

Only 14 states have laws prohibiting leaving a child unattended in a vehicle.
The remaining 36 states do not have laws specifically against leaving a child unattended in a vehicle
Currently 9 states have proposed legislation that would make it a crime to leave a child unattended in a vehicle
Another 7 states have had previously proposed unattended child laws
These statistics tell me that people are starting to view this as a crime, not a mistake
- Charges were files in 49% of all the deaths. 81% resulted in convictions.
The above statistic states (if applied to last year''s numbers) that of the 42 children who died, 21 of them had parents charged with their deaths. Of those about 16 of them were convicted. So, this objectively proves that many judges and juries do find this to be a crime, whether or not it was intentional.
- In cases with paid caregivers (i.e., childcare workers, babysitters) 84% were charged and 96% convicted
- Only 7% of the cases involved drugs or alcohol

Now to address the second part of your post, you have lumped in ALL deaths where the children were INTENTIONALLY left in the car and through the mistakes discussed in the original Washington Post article. So these statistics in no way support your claim.

I doubt you will find many people that argue that someone who INTENTIONALLY left their child in the car to die should not be prosecuted.

So actually if we look at your statistics - in 49% of cases, charges were filed. So in less than half of the cases, charges were filed. Could that be because some/most of the rest of the 51% were ACCIDENTAL cases, in which the DA decided no crime was committed? Just a thought.

 

[vespergirl]

Here is another example of this happening in my area, where the father was convicted, and agrees with the punishment the judge meted out - he feels that it was fair, and goes so far as to call the judge merciful in his interview. I think that the judge''s sentence was spot on - not needlessly punitive, but not allowing his child''s death to be forgotten by the community either. This shows that even some parents of children dying from unintentional car hyperthermia agree that they should be legally punished for the incident:

http://ggweather.com/heat/ap_sentencing.htm

So what of Kevin Kelly? What did he deserve?

Would it influence your opinion to know that the day Frances died, May 29, 2002, the Manassas engineer was watching 12 children alone while his wife and oldest daughter were abroad visiting a cancer-stricken relative?

Does it matter that when he returned home that day, he''d asked two teenage children - both of baby-sitting age - to attend to their younger siblings while he went back to school for another daughter who was late getting out of an exam?

Or that during the next seven hours, he was accosted by an air conditioning repairman with news that he was going to have to spend several thousand dollars on a new unit? That he fixed lunch, did laundry, mended a gap in the fence that the little ones were using to escape the yard, drove to the store for parts to fix his air conditioner, took a son to soccer practice and fixed a leaking drain pipe in the basement?

Prince William County Commonwealth''s Attorney Paul L. Ebert concluded that Kelly''s failure to ask after Frances for seven hours rose to the level of a crime. Kelly was convicted of involuntary manslaughter and child endangerment. The jury recommended a year in prison.

But Circuit Judge Rossie D. Alston Jr. had what he thought was a more humane solution. He ordered Kelly to spend one day a year in jail for seven years and to hold an annual blood drive around the anniversary of his daughter''s death.

Kelly is still a convicted felon. He cannot vote, and his job was affected because he is barred from certain government properties.

But waiting in line recently at the All Saints Catholic Church to donate blood, he said he is happy for the chance to honor his daughter by helping to save lives.

"The judge was very, very merciful," he said as his red-haired children scurried around giving snacks and stickers to donors. "And I''m very grateful for what he did in allowing me to stay with my family and support my family."

 

[TravelingGal]

Vespergirl, seriously give it a rest. We get it. Punish the parents. People like you demand justice.

Honestly, it''s been awhile since I''ve seen such an unyielding opinion on PS.

 

[tlh]

I''m gonna put my kid in a plastic bubble.. and keep him safe from everything.. global warming included!

 

[TravelingGal]

Date: 3/12/2009 1:12:37 PM
Author: tlh
I''m gonna put my kid in a plastic bubble.. and keep him safe from everything.. global warming included!

Those bubbles heat up. Your kid will die in there and you''ll be left by yourself to be stoned by other self righteous parents.

 

[tlh]

hmm... I hadn''t thought about that. I''ll have to think about this some more.