Children dying in hot cars - mistake or crime?

[vespergirl]

Date: 3/10/2009 4:29:40 PM
Author: dragonfly411
the worst part about that article is reading about the little girl who tore her hair out.... and that is why I have to think of it as negligence and criminal.... imagine what went through the children''s minds as they were dying....

It could happen to anyone yes, but again, to me it is a matter of absentmindedness and prioritizing other things, worthless things, things that will not matter in the long run of life too much. Phone calls, other people''s problems, work. We are too focused on work in this world, and not focused enough on our lives.... And this is another thing that shows it. It''s sad

Thank you, I totally agree. Many posters have accused me of being cold and insensitive to the feelings of the parents - hello, did you not read what the poor children had to go through? I think that the kids deserve far more of my sympathy than the parents do. When I posted earlier this week that I did not feel sorry for the parents at all, it''s because I was still heartbroken at the thought of that particular image of that child in agony. It''s because I take care of a 2 year old boy every day that I am so angry at those parents - the idea of a child in pain is unbearable to me.

 

[lindsaylove]

I understand an argument about priorities, but I really don't think that it applies. Forgetting something doesn't automatically mean it was not a priority. By that argument, any parent who forgets to do something related to their child (granted, with often far less serious consequences) was not making their child a priority? I don't think so. We are human beings, we make mistakes. Often times trivial, sometimes catastrophic. It's heart breaking but true.

The "it can happen to anyone" theme of the article is a valuable one. The message that this sort of thing only happens to parents who don't prioritize their child would be a dangerous one. What loving, well meaning parent feels that their child is not their priority?

 

[TravelingGal]

Date: 3/10/2009 4:39:17 PM
Author: vespergirl

Date: 3/10/2009 4:29:40 PM
Author: dragonfly411
the worst part about that article is reading about the little girl who tore her hair out.... and that is why I have to think of it as negligence and criminal.... imagine what went through the children''s minds as they were dying....

It could happen to anyone yes, but again, to me it is a matter of absentmindedness and prioritizing other things, worthless things, things that will not matter in the long run of life too much. Phone calls, other people''s problems, work. We are too focused on work in this world, and not focused enough on our lives.... And this is another thing that shows it. It''s sad

Thank you, I totally agree. Many posters have accused me of being cold and insensitive to the feelings of the parents - hello, did you not read what the poor children had to go through? I think that the kids deserve far more of my sympathy than the parents do. When I posted earlier this week that I did not feel sorry for the parents at all, it''s because I was still heartbroken at the thought of that particular image of that child in agony. It''s because I take care of a 2 year old boy every day that I am so angry at those parents - the idea of a child in pain is unbearable to me.

And it is PRECISELY because the thought is so unbearable (so much so I could not initially read the article at all) that I feel an inkling of the agonizing heartache that a parent must feel when something like that happens to them.

Your viewpoint is for the children. I get that. None of us are negating that. But I also think your viewpoint is that the parents in this article are *THOSE* parents, not as *WE* parents, collectively. Like you said, you say something like this could never happen to you, right?

And I''ll tell you something, if something ever happened to me because of my mother, no matter how much I suffered, I love her so much that I would NOT want her to suffer any more because I know she loved me with all her heart and would never intentionally hurt me. Love goes both ways.

 

[decodelighted]

Date: 3/10/2009 4:33:30 PM
Author: Allison D.
I can honestly see, though, why some people are so adamant that there is no reasonable way for a parent to make this kind of mistake. As long as they believe that, they can continue to reassure themselves it could never happen to them. Once they would acknowledge that it could happen to anyone, they''d also have to accept it could actually happen to them too, and that they aren''t exempt from human error. Some people just can''t accept that.

B-I-N-G-O

 

[Allison D.]

As for the contention that it "hasn't" happened to a SAHM......it didn't take me a full five minutes to find an example where it has.

http://articles.latimes.com/2001/aug/05/local/me-30961

I'm sure she isn't the only one, either.

 

[TravelingGal]

Date: 3/10/2009 4:58:15 PM
Author: Allison D.
As for the contention that it ''hasn''t'' happened to a SAHM......it didn''t take me a full five minutes to find an example where it has.

http://articles.latimes.com/2001/aug/05/local/me-30961

I''m sure she isn''t the only one, either.

I didn''t even bother searching Alj, I knew that it is something that can happen to anyone.

 

[lucyandroger]

Date: 3/10/2009 4:39:17 PM
Author: vespergirl

Date: 3/10/2009 4:29:40 PM
Author: dragonfly411
the worst part about that article is reading about the little girl who tore her hair out.... and that is why I have to think of it as negligence and criminal.... imagine what went through the children''s minds as they were dying....

It could happen to anyone yes, but again, to me it is a matter of absentmindedness and prioritizing other things, worthless things, things that will not matter in the long run of life too much. Phone calls, other people''s problems, work. We are too focused on work in this world, and not focused enough on our lives.... And this is another thing that shows it. It''s sad

Thank you, I totally agree. Many posters have accused me of being cold and insensitive to the feelings of the parents - hello, did you not read what the poor children had to go through? I think that the kids deserve far more of my sympathy than the parents do. When I posted earlier this week that I did not feel sorry for the parents at all, it''s because I was still heartbroken at the thought of that particular image of that child in agony. It''s because I take care of a 2 year old boy every day that I am so angry at those parents - the idea of a child in pain is unbearable to me.

It is entirely possible to have sympathy and compassion for BOTH the children and the parents in these cases.

 

[lindsaylove]

Date: 3/10/2009 5:11:10 PM
Author: lucyandroger

Date: 3/10/2009 4:39:17 PM
Author: vespergirl

Date: 3/10/2009 4:29:40 PM
Author: dragonfly411
the worst part about that article is reading about the little girl who tore her hair out.... and that is why I have to think of it as negligence and criminal.... imagine what went through the children''s minds as they were dying....

It could happen to anyone yes, but again, to me it is a matter of absentmindedness and prioritizing other things, worthless things, things that will not matter in the long run of life too much. Phone calls, other people''s problems, work. We are too focused on work in this world, and not focused enough on our lives.... And this is another thing that shows it. It''s sad

Thank you, I totally agree. Many posters have accused me of being cold and insensitive to the feelings of the parents - hello, did you not read what the poor children had to go through? I think that the kids deserve far more of my sympathy than the parents do. When I posted earlier this week that I did not feel sorry for the parents at all, it''s because I was still heartbroken at the thought of that particular image of that child in agony. It''s because I take care of a 2 year old boy every day that I am so angry at those parents - the idea of a child in pain is unbearable to me.

It is entirely possible to have sympathy and compassion for BOTH the children and the parents in these cases.

Thank you for pointing that out!! It is easy to get so caught up in the horrific details in this article that we forget that, as Tgal mentioned, love goes both ways. Imagine if your grown child (and this isn''t directed to anyone in particular) was involved in a tragic incident such as unintentionally leaving their own baby in a car, and it resulted in the death of their baby - your grandchild? Would one feel all the anger and loss and grief in the world for the baby, OF COURSE, but would we comdemn our own child who made this horrible mistake? I don''t think so.

 

[dragonfly411]

lucy, again I agree. I do feel compassion for the parents, I can''t imagine losing a child, but to me it is STILL 100% negligence. The same way as it would be leaving a dog. If a dog is a criminal offence then so too is a child, whether they meant to or not. That''s where the negligence comes in with not meaning to, THEY FORGOT about their child... not just for a few minutes, or 15 minutes, but for HOURS. How do you not remember for hours? Because your priorities were lying elsewhere to the point that you completely forgot. I once forgot to let my horses out of the barn, in summer heat, with no food to munch on... I felt horrible.... and I got yelled at for it (I know not on the level of criminal but making a point) I deserved to feel bad and to be punished outwardly as well, they were my responsibility and I forgot them... I neglected to take care of them.... it has never ever happened again. This is not a case where a child falls in a pool (although I do think some cases of pool are negligence on the parents'' part), it is not forgetting a nipple on a bottle, it is not forgetting how many scoops to scoop, this is not forgetting the time in the store, or forgetting to schedule a babysitter... this is a child''s life... they died excruciating deaths... in heat... suffocating... probably wondering where mommy or daddy was... forgotten. Their parents FORGOT them... an they died. To me it is on the level of manslaughter yes, and I don''t think it''s lack of compassion on anyone''s part to believe so. I feel for their inward pain, I feel compassion that they lost their babies... but they did so by their own negligence, by allowing their jobs, or other issues to carry them away SO MUCH that they forgot their own child. There should never be a situation like that.

 

[lindsaylove]

Date: 3/10/2009 5:21:09 PM
Author: dragonfly411
lucy, again I agree. I do feel compassion for the parents, I can''t imagine losing a child, but to me it is STILL 100% negligence. The same way as it would be leaving a dog. If a dog is a criminal offence then so too is a child, whether they meant to or not. That''s where the negligence comes in with not meaning to, THEY FORGOT about their child... not just for a few minutes, or 15 minutes, but for HOURS. How do you not remember for hours? Because your priorities were lying elsewhere to the point that you completely forgot. I once forgot to let my horses out of the barn, in summer heat, with no food to munch on... I felt horrible.... and I got yelled at for it (I know not on the level of criminal but making a point) I deserved to feel bad and to be punished outwardly as well, they were my responsibility and I forgot them... I neglected to take care of them.... it has never ever happened again. This is not a case where a child falls in a pool (although I do think some cases of pool are negligence on the parents'' part), it is not forgetting a nipple on a bottle, it is not forgetting how many scoops to scoop, this is not forgetting the time in the store, or forgetting to schedule a babysitter... this is a child''s life... they died excruciating deaths... in heat... suffocating... probably wondering where mommy or daddy was... forgotten. Their parents FORGOT them... an they died. To me it is on the level of manslaughter yes, and I don''t think it''s lack of compassion on anyone''s part to believe so. I feel for their inward pain, I feel compassion that they lost their babies... but they did so by their own negligence, by allowing their jobs, or other issues to carry them away SO MUCH that they forgot their own child. There should never be a situation like that.

Allowing? Can you elaborate on how you came to the conclusion that these parents allowed themselves to be distracted?

 

[Allison D.]

Date: 3/10/2009 5:08:41 PM
Author: TravelingGal

Date: 3/10/2009 4:58:15 PM
Author: Allison D.
As for the contention that it ''hasn''t'' happened to a SAHM......it didn''t take me a full five minutes to find an example where it has.

http://articles.latimes.com/2001/aug/05/local/me-30961

I''m sure she isn''t the only one, either.

I didn''t even bother searching Alj, I knew that it is something that can happen to anyone.

Of course. I knew it, too. But I also realize that seeing is believe for those in denial, so I took the trouble to find an instance.

It wasn''t the only one I found, either.

 

[TravelingGal]

Date: 3/10/2009 5:21:09 PM
Author: dragonfly411
lucy, again I agree. I do feel compassion for the parents, I can''t imagine losing a child, but to me it is STILL 100% negligence. The same way as it would be leaving a dog. If a dog is a criminal offence then so too is a child, whether they meant to or not. That''s where the negligence comes in with not meaning to, THEY FORGOT about their child... not just for a few minutes, or 15 minutes, but for HOURS. How do you not remember for hours? Because your priorities were lying elsewhere to the point that you completely forgot. I once forgot to let my horses out of the barn, in summer heat, with no food to munch on... I felt horrible.... and I got yelled at for it (I know not on the level of criminal but making a point) I deserved to feel bad and to be punished outwardly as well, they were my responsibility and I forgot them... I neglected to take care of them.... it has never ever happened again. This is not a case where a child falls in a pool (although I do think some cases of pool are negligence on the parents'' part), it is not forgetting a nipple on a bottle, it is not forgetting how many scoops to scoop, this is not forgetting the time in the store, or forgetting to schedule a babysitter... this is a child''s life... they died excruciating deaths... in heat... suffocating... probably wondering where mommy or daddy was... forgotten. Their parents FORGOT them... an they died. To me it is on the level of manslaughter yes, and I don''t think it''s lack of compassion on anyone''s part to believe so. I feel for their inward pain, I feel compassion that they lost their babies... but they did so by their own negligence, by allowing their jobs, or other issues to carry them away SO MUCH that they forgot their own child. There should never be a situation like that.

I''m not saying it''s not negligence. What I am saying is that the SAME mechanism that makes one go on autopilot and forget the number of scoops is the SAME mechanism that can make someone forget the kid in the car (and yes, for hours.) The article talks about this. We''re just talking about degrees here, and this is the extreme case of it.

I agree, I wouldn''t want any of these people babysit my kid, but I''m not big on ANYONE babysitting my kid, period. Not even my mother. I prefer my kid to be my responsibility because if anything like this happens, I want it to be my fault, no one else''s.

There should never be situations like this, but there ARE. Is the best way to really throw stones? Say you can''t understand how it can happen, therefore it''s not possible to forget for hours? Well, it IS happening. So if people could admit it could happen, even to them, it''s the first step in everyone preventing it. So someone might create a device to alert people that there is a kid there because there would be a MARKET for it.

Where I had issue with what was said is that people who commit this kind of negligence are not deserving of any more children, put work over their the wellbeing of their children, are not SAHMs. etc etc.

And that you think people would "allow" this to happen? No one would ALLOW their jobs to carry them away and have this happen. You seem to think this is intentional - that people PUT themselves in this situation on purpose. Did you read the story of the SAHM that Alj posted? Sounds to me like her EXHAUSTION got the better of her because she simply went into the house to sleep and her kids died in the car. She didn''t have issues, she didn''t have a job - she was just TIRED.

 

[TravelingGal]

Date: 3/10/2009 5:26:20 PM
Author: Orchid14

Date: 3/10/2009 5:21:09 PM
Author: dragonfly411
lucy, again I agree. I do feel compassion for the parents, I can''t imagine losing a child, but to me it is STILL 100% negligence. The same way as it would be leaving a dog. If a dog is a criminal offence then so too is a child, whether they meant to or not. That''s where the negligence comes in with not meaning to, THEY FORGOT about their child... not just for a few minutes, or 15 minutes, but for HOURS. How do you not remember for hours? Because your priorities were lying elsewhere to the point that you completely forgot. I once forgot to let my horses out of the barn, in summer heat, with no food to munch on... I felt horrible.... and I got yelled at for it (I know not on the level of criminal but making a point) I deserved to feel bad and to be punished outwardly as well, they were my responsibility and I forgot them... I neglected to take care of them.... it has never ever happened again. This is not a case where a child falls in a pool (although I do think some cases of pool are negligence on the parents'' part), it is not forgetting a nipple on a bottle, it is not forgetting how many scoops to scoop, this is not forgetting the time in the store, or forgetting to schedule a babysitter... this is a child''s life... they died excruciating deaths... in heat... suffocating... probably wondering where mommy or daddy was... forgotten. Their parents FORGOT them... an they died. To me it is on the level of manslaughter yes, and I don''t think it''s lack of compassion on anyone''s part to believe so. I feel for their inward pain, I feel compassion that they lost their babies... but they did so by their own negligence, by allowing their jobs, or other issues to carry them away SO MUCH that they forgot their own child. There should never be a situation like that.

Allowing? Can you elaborate on how you came to the conclusion that these parents allowed themselves to be distracted?

Guess I wasn''t the only one who zeroed in on that one!

 

[lucyandroger]

Date: 3/10/2009 5:21:09 PM
Author: dragonfly411
lucy, again I agree. I do feel compassion for the parents, I can''t imagine losing a child, but to me it is STILL 100% negligence. The same way as it would be leaving a dog. If a dog is a criminal offence then so too is a child, whether they meant to or not. That''s where the negligence comes in with not meaning to, THEY FORGOT about their child... not just for a few minutes, or 15 minutes, but for HOURS. How do you not remember for hours? Because your priorities were lying elsewhere to the point that you completely forgot. I once forgot to let my horses out of the barn, in summer heat, with no food to munch on... I felt horrible.... and I got yelled at for it (I know not on the level of criminal but making a point) I deserved to feel bad and to be punished outwardly as well, they were my responsibility and I forgot them... I neglected to take care of them.... it has never ever happened again. This is not a case where a child falls in a pool (although I do think some cases of pool are negligence on the parents'' part), it is not forgetting a nipple on a bottle, it is not forgetting how many scoops to scoop, this is not forgetting the time in the store, or forgetting to schedule a babysitter... this is a child''s life... they died excruciating deaths... in heat... suffocating... probably wondering where mommy or daddy was... forgotten. Their parents FORGOT them... an they died. To me it is on the level of manslaughter yes, and I don''t think it''s lack of compassion on anyone''s part to believe so. I feel for their inward pain, I feel compassion that they lost their babies... but they did so by their own negligence, by allowing their jobs, or other issues to carry them away SO MUCH that they forgot their own child. There should never be a situation like that.

I''m not sure you understand what happened in these cases. It wasn''t that the parents didn''t think about their child all day long because they were preoccupied with something else. Their brain tricked them into thinking they had already dropped them off at the daycare/ baby-sitter. They could have been thinking about them all day, imagining them playing with the other children for all we know. It was NOT as you allege that they forgot their child existed.

From the article:

"Diamond says that in situations involving familiar, routine motor skills, the human animal presses the basal ganglia into service as a sort of auxiliary autopilot. When our prefrontal cortex and hippocampus are planning our day on the way to work, the ignorant but efficient basal ganglia is operating the car; that''s why you''ll sometimes find yourself having driven from point A to point B without a clear recollection of the route you took, the turns you made or the scenery you saw."

Hasn''t something like this ever happened to you?

 

[TravelingGal]

Date: 3/10/2009 5:43:21 PM
Author: lucyandroger

I''m not sure you understand what happened in these cases. It wasn''t that the parents didn''t think about their child all day long because they were preoccupied with something else. Their brain tricked them into thinking they had already dropped them off at the daycare/ baby-sitter. They could have been thinking about them all day, imagining them playing with the other children for all we know. It was NOT as you allege that they forgot their child existed.

From the article:

''Diamond says that in situations involving familiar, routine motor skills, the human animal presses the basal ganglia into service as a sort of auxiliary autopilot. When our prefrontal cortex and hippocampus are planning our day on the way to work, the ignorant but efficient basal ganglia is operating the car; that''s why you''ll sometimes find yourself having driven from point A to point B without a clear recollection of the route you took, the turns you made or the scenery you saw.''

Hasn''t something like this ever happened to you?

This is key to point out, and thank you for doing so.

Maybe I''m just more empathetic because I really could see this happening to me. While I have a hard time imagining I''d "forget", I can absolutely see my mind tricking me into thinking that I dropped the kid off somehow. I think of my girl all the time. All through the day while I work (albeit from home). I could see myself getting into the car to go pick her back up from daycare without realizing she was already there. (although the thought of that makes me physically ill.)

I know my mind does this because I end up swearing to TGuy that "X" happened while we were together and he proves me wrong. But it''s so real in my mind.

 

[vespergirl]

Date: 3/10/2009 4:48:27 PM
Author: TravelingGal

Date: 3/10/2009 4:39:17 PM
Author: vespergirl

Date: 3/10/2009 4:29:40 PM
Author: dragonfly411
the worst part about that article is reading about the little girl who tore her hair out.... and that is why I have to think of it as negligence and criminal.... imagine what went through the children''s minds as they were dying....

It could happen to anyone yes, but again, to me it is a matter of absentmindedness and prioritizing other things, worthless things, things that will not matter in the long run of life too much. Phone calls, other people''s problems, work. We are too focused on work in this world, and not focused enough on our lives.... And this is another thing that shows it. It''s sad

Thank you, I totally agree. Many posters have accused me of being cold and insensitive to the feelings of the parents - hello, did you not read what the poor children had to go through? I think that the kids deserve far more of my sympathy than the parents do. When I posted earlier this week that I did not feel sorry for the parents at all, it''s because I was still heartbroken at the thought of that particular image of that child in agony. It''s because I take care of a 2 year old boy every day that I am so angry at those parents - the idea of a child in pain is unbearable to me.

And it is PRECISELY because the thought is so unbearable (so much so I could not initially read the article at all) that I feel an inkling of the agonizing heartache that a parent must feel when something like that happens to them.

Your viewpoint is for the children. I get that. None of us are negating that. But I also think your viewpoint is that the parents in this article are *THOSE* parents, not as *WE* parents, collectively. Like you said, you say something like this could never happen to you, right?

And I''ll tell you something, if something ever happened to me because of my mother, no matter how much I suffered, I love her so much that I would NOT want her to suffer any more because I know she loved me with all her heart and would never intentionally hurt me. Love goes both ways.

That''s great that you have that type of relationship with your mom, but not everyone does. My mother is a social worker by profession who works with kids, and is a guardian ad litem. She also used to beat the crap out of me and my brothers, and was emotionally abusive as well. We are now back on speaking terms, because she eventually was diagnosed with a dissociative personality disorder, so her excuse is that she doesn''t remember beating us when her brain would "flip a switch" and her anger would overwhelm her. I remember what it was like to be a physically abused child, who, went I went to adults for help, neither my guidance counselor nor other adults in my family believed me because of her reputation as a stellar advocate for children. So you can see why it''s not beyond my realm of belief that seemingly devoted parents would hurt their children, intentionally or otherwise. That''s why I feel way worse for the babies who died than for the parents, who may or may not have actually "forgotten."

 

[TravelingGal]

Date: 3/10/2009 6:18:33 PM
Author: vespergirl

That's great that you have that type of relationship with your mom, but not everyone does. My mother is a social worker by profession who works with kids, and is a guardian ad litem. She also used to beat the crap out of me and my brothers, and was emotionally abusive as well. We are now back on speaking terms, because she eventually was diagnosed with a dissociative personality disorder, so her excuse is that she doesn't remember beating us when her brain would 'flip a switch' and her anger would overwhelm her. I remember what it was like to be a physically abused child, who, went I went to adults for help, neither my guidance counselor nor other adults in my family believed me because of her reputation as a stellar advocate for children. So you can see why it's not beyond my realm of belief that seemingly devoted parents would hurt their children, intentionally or otherwise. That's why I feel way worse for the babies who died than for the parents, who may or may not have actually 'forgotten.'

I'm sorry to hear that Vesper. I truly am. My mother was/is an amazing woman. My father, not so much. He beat me too - threw me on the ground and kicked me in the face when I was around 10. Hit my brother a lot more than he hit me. He was emotionally abusive too (more to my brother than me). So I do know that some people intentionally hurt their children. But in my own case, I decided to forgive and in the end I do believe my father did the best he could and did truly love me. Not saying that as any kind of preachy thing...just my own experience. I told him I was proud to be his daughter the day he died, and I meant it.

Anyway, this has been an interesting discussion and even though I certainly have not agreed with you, I applaud you for staying very civil through the entire discussion.

 

[Allison D.]

I'm sorry to hear it, too, Vesper, and I can see how such an experience makes it practically impossible to give benefit of the doubt without feeling like it condones something it shouldn't.

As the child of an alcoholic parent, I can tell you that I relate to your story and have lived some of it myself, so I understand how tough it can be to look outside one's own experience and consider that all similar scenarios aren't necessarily created equal.

They aren't.

Sometimes, people are willfully neglectful and they don't place the priority they should on their children. They are careless or selfish. To me, this rises to the level of criminal behavior.

And sometimes, people who live for the joy in every breath their children take make honest, unintentional mistakes they can't even fathom themselves making. To me, this doesn't rise to the level of criminal behavior. This type of occurrence is just an unfortunate tragedy.

Sometimes, people do terrible things on purpose or through thoughtlessness. Sometimes, they just make honest mistakes. I don't believe both situations should be treated the same.

I do honestly believe there is room to have compassion for both the children and the parents in the latter scenario.

 

[Kaleigh]

Date: 3/10/2009 6:38:07 PM
Author: Allison D.
I''m sorry to hear it, too, Vesper, and I can see how such an experience makes it practically impossible to give benefit of the doubt without feeling like it condones something it shouldn''t.

As the child of an alcoholic parent, I can tell you that I relate to your story and have lived some of it myself, so I understand how tough it can be to look outside one''s own experience and consider that all similar scenarios aren''t necessarily created equal.

They aren''t.

Sometimes, people are willfully neglectful and they don''t place the priority they should on their children. They are careless or selfish. To me, this rises to the level of criminal behavior.

And sometimes, people who live for the joy in every breath their children take make honest, unintentional mistakes they can''t even fathom themselves making. To me, this doesn''t rise to the level of criminal behavior. This type of occurrence is just an unfortunate tragedy.

Sometimes, people do terrible things on purpose or through thoughtlessness. Sometimes, they just make honest mistakes. I don''t believe both situations should be treated the same.

I do honestly believe there is room to have compassion for both the children and the parents in the latter scenario.

Ditto. At first, I was more like, how can someone do that? But upon thinking, no one means to do this. It''s a horrible mistake. One they will pay for the rest of their lives. I have compassion for the parent. I mourn for the babies that lose their lives this way.
Some one should invent an alarm system that is linked to the car seat, and your key chain.
Vesper Tgal and AllisonD. I relate to your stories. I suffered much the same. But like Tgal, I managed to forgive. Took a long time though.

 

[lindsaylove]

Date: 3/10/2009 6:38:07 PM
Author: Allison D.
I''m sorry to hear it, too, Vesper, and I can see how such an experience makes it practically impossible to give benefit of the doubt without feeling like it condones something it shouldn''t.

As the child of an alcoholic parent, I can tell you that I relate to your story and have lived some of it myself, so I understand how tough it can be to look outside one''s own experience and consider that all similar scenarios aren''t necessarily created equal.

They aren''t.

Sometimes, people are willfully neglectful and they don''t place the priority they should on their children. They are careless or selfish. To me, this rises to the level of criminal behavior.

And sometimes, people who live for the joy in every breath their children take make honest, unintentional mistakes they can''t even fathom themselves making. To me, this doesn''t rise to the level of criminal behavior. This type of occurrence is just an unfortunate tragedy.

Sometimes, people do terrible things on purpose or through thoughtlessness. Sometimes, they just make honest mistakes. I don''t believe both situations should be treated the same.

I do honestly believe there is room to have compassion for both the children and the parents in the latter scenario.

Perfectly put.

 

[neatfreak]

Date: 3/10/2009 6:50:14 PM
Author: Kaleigh

Date: 3/10/2009 6:38:07 PM

Author: Allison D.

I'm sorry to hear it, too, Vesper, and I can see how such an experience makes it practically impossible to give benefit of the doubt without feeling like it condones something it shouldn't.


As the child of an alcoholic parent, I can tell you that I relate to your story and have lived some of it myself, so I understand how tough it can be to look outside one's own experience and consider that all similar scenarios aren't necessarily created equal.


They aren't.


Sometimes, people are willfully neglectful and they don't place the priority they should on their children. They are careless or selfish. To me, this rises to the level of criminal behavior.


And sometimes, people who live for the joy in every breath their children take make honest, unintentional mistakes they can't even fathom themselves making. To me, this doesn't rise to the level of criminal behavior. This type of occurrence is just an unfortunate tragedy.


Sometimes, people do terrible things on purpose or through thoughtlessness. Sometimes, they just make honest mistakes. I don't believe both situations should be treated the same.


I do honestly believe there is room to have compassion for both the children and the parents in the latter scenario.

Ditto. At first, I was more like, how can someone do that? But upon thinking, no one means to do this. It's a horrible mistake. One they will pay for the rest of their lives. I have compassion for the parent. I mourn for the babies that lose their lives this way.

Some one should invent an alarm system that is linked to the car seat, and your key chain.

Vesper Tgal and AllisonD. I relate to your stories. I suffered much the same. But like Tgal, I managed to forgive. Took a long time though.

As I mentioned before there ARE products out there that alert you when the child is still bucked/snapped in. But they don't sell well. Why? Because everyone thinks it can't happen to them so they don't take measures to prevent it.

Here is a link. The sad thing is that many many more of these were developed but never brought to market because market research suggests that they wouldn't sell.


http://www.babyalert.info/

 

[Kaleigh]

Date: 3/10/2009 9:03:10 PM
Author: neatfreak

Date: 3/10/2009 6:50:14 PM
Author: Kaleigh

Date: 3/10/2009 6:38:07 PM

Author: Allison D.

I'm sorry to hear it, too, Vesper, and I can see how such an experience makes it practically impossible to give benefit of the doubt without feeling like it condones something it shouldn't.


As the child of an alcoholic parent, I can tell you that I relate to your story and have lived some of it myself, so I understand how tough it can be to look outside one's own experience and consider that all similar scenarios aren't necessarily created equal.


They aren't.


Sometimes, people are willfully neglectful and they don't place the priority they should on their children. They are careless or selfish. To me, this rises to the level of criminal behavior.


And sometimes, people who live for the joy in every breath their children take make honest, unintentional mistakes they can't even fathom themselves making. To me, this doesn't rise to the level of criminal behavior. This type of occurrence is just an unfortunate tragedy.


Sometimes, people do terrible things on purpose or through thoughtlessness. Sometimes, they just make honest mistakes. I don't believe both situations should be treated the same.


I do honestly believe there is room to have compassion for both the children and the parents in the latter scenario.

Ditto. At first, I was more like, how can someone do that? But upon thinking, no one means to do this. It's a horrible mistake. One they will pay for the rest of their lives. I have compassion for the parent. I mourn for the babies that lose their lives this way.

Some one should invent an alarm system that is linked to the car seat, and your key chain.

Vesper Tgal and AllisonD. I relate to your stories. I suffered much the same. But like Tgal, I managed to forgive. Took a long time though.

As I mentioned before there ARE products out there that alert you when the child is still bucked/snapped in. But they don't sell well. Why? Because everyone thinks it can't happen to them so they don't take measures to prevent it.

Here is a link. The sad thing is that many many more of these were developed but never brought to market because market research suggests that they wouldn't sell.


http://www.babyalert.info/

Gosh, I am sorry, I do remember you posting this before. Thanks for posting the link, I hope people take notice of it. I know I would have, had it been available back when I had my kids.

I saw the most recent pics of your adorable boys. They are soooo precious and cute.

 

[neatfreak]

Date: 3/10/2009 9:23:57 PM
Author: Kaleigh

Date: 3/10/2009 9:03:10 PM

Author: neatfreak

Date: 3/10/2009 6:50:14 PM

Author: Kaleigh

Date: 3/10/2009 6:38:07 PM


Author: Allison D.


I''m sorry to hear it, too, Vesper, and I can see how such an experience makes it practically impossible to give benefit of the doubt without feeling like it condones something it shouldn''t.



As the child of an alcoholic parent, I can tell you that I relate to your story and have lived some of it myself, so I understand how tough it can be to look outside one''s own experience and consider that all similar scenarios aren''t necessarily created equal.



They aren''t.



Sometimes, people are willfully neglectful and they don''t place the priority they should on their children. They are careless or selfish. To me, this rises to the level of criminal behavior.



And sometimes, people who live for the joy in every breath their children take make honest, unintentional mistakes they can''t even fathom themselves making. To me, this doesn''t rise to the level of criminal behavior. This type of occurrence is just an unfortunate tragedy.



Sometimes, people do terrible things on purpose or through thoughtlessness. Sometimes, they just make honest mistakes. I don''t believe both situations should be treated the same.



I do honestly believe there is room to have compassion for both the children and the parents in the latter scenario.

Ditto. At first, I was more like, how can someone do that? But upon thinking, no one means to do this. It''s a horrible mistake. One they will pay for the rest of their lives. I have compassion for the parent. I mourn for the babies that lose their lives this way.


Some one should invent an alarm system that is linked to the car seat, and your key chain.


Vesper Tgal and AllisonD. I relate to your stories. I suffered much the same. But like Tgal, I managed to forgive. Took a long time though.

As I mentioned before there ARE products out there that alert you when the child is still bucked/snapped in. But they don''t sell well. Why? Because everyone thinks it can''t happen to them so they don''t take measures to prevent it.


Here is a link. The sad thing is that many many more of these were developed but never brought to market because market research suggests that they wouldn''t sell.



http://www.babyalert.info/

Gosh, I am sorry, I do remember you posting this before. Thanks for posting the link, I hope people take notice of it. I know I would have, had it been available back when I had my kids.


I saw the most recent pics of your adorable boys. They are soooo precious and cute.

Aww thanks Kaleigh. No worries on missing it-I just noticed that someone had poised the same question before and no one seemed to notice that I posted the info that it was available. Nasa has even designed one but can''t find anyone to produce/market it because the market just isn''t there for it apparently.

 

[Kelli]

It is a crime! A disgusting, horrific one!

 

[dragonfly411]

In answer to responses to my last post. I do understand that this was not a conscious decision. They didn''t do it intentionally. I do get that. But yes these parents DID allow other things to be foremost in their mind before the children in their car. In so doing, they unwittingly pushed all conscious thought of the children to the back of their mind, allowing the other things to be the first thing and only thing they thought of at the time. They didn''t say "I''m going to make my work my number one priority" but they still did allow SOMETHING to become such a big priority that they forgot their child. I think that in today''s world, people are too easily slipping into auto-drive, focusing on work, or whatever it is that has them so busy, to the point that they don''t pay conscious attention to what they are doing, where they are, how they are driving, whether their children made it inside to school ok. It''s so sad to me to see parents dropping kids off, with a half hearted goodbye as they jabber on their cell phones about something at work, or double checking a grocery list. To me, if these parents had stayed grounded in the present moment, they might not have made the same mistake. But the fact of the matter is, it is still negligence, and it is child endangerment. A parent should NOT be so preoccupied that they forget their own child. I understand that they consciously thought they had dropped the child off later in the day, but where was the conscious thought during the car drive with the child?


I do understand they did not do this on purpose, they did not make a conscious decision to forget. BUT THEY DID unconsciously ALLOW something else to be so all encompassing to them that they forgot their responsibility and duty to their child. And to me in the end that is the ultimate part. They became so distracted, and preoccupied with other things, that their child, their blood, the one they are to protect and nurture, was pushed to a back burner to the point that they were forgotten. And again, all I can think is what went through those children''s minds. Again, if a dog is a federal offense, why isn''t a child, a child''s life. These children DIED because their parents FORGOT.... because they forgot about their child. Why on earth would any phone call, any shopping trip, any thought or present feeling be so overwhelming to a person that they would allow themselves to think only of that at ANY point and forget their child? I couldn''t even imagine forgetting my dog.... and she''s not a child... she is my dog. I just don''t believe that a person should allow themselves to be so preoccupied that they forget their duties to their family. And yes, they are allowing those things to be the most important thing in their lives. They may not have made a conscious decision to forget their child, and I understand that, but they are making a conscious decision to make those other things THAT COMPLETELY IMPORTANT to them.... that they focus solely on that at any given time needed.

 

[TravelingGal]

Date: 3/11/2009 10:59:31 AM
Author: dragonfly411
In answer to responses to my last post. I do understand that this was not a conscious decision. They didn''t do it intentionally. I do get that. But yes these parents DID allow other things to be foremost in their mind before the children in their car. In so doing, they unwittingly pushed all conscious thought of the children to the back of their mind, allowing the other things to be the first thing and only thing they thought of at the time. They didn''t say ''I''m going to make my work my number one priority'' but they still did allow SOMETHING to become such a big priority that they forgot their child. I think that in today''s world, people are too easily slipping into auto-drive, focusing on work, or whatever it is that has them so busy, to the point that they don''t pay conscious attention to what they are doing, where they are, how they are driving, whether their children made it inside to school ok. It''s so sad to me to see parents dropping kids off, with a half hearted goodbye as they jabber on their cell phones about something at work, or double checking a grocery list. To me, if these parents had stayed grounded in the present moment, they might not have made the same mistake. But the fact of the matter is, it is still negligence, and it is child endangerment. A parent should NOT be so preoccupied that they forget their own child. I understand that they consciously thought they had dropped the child off later in the day, but where was the conscious thought during the car drive with the child?


I do understand they did not do this on purpose, they did not make a conscious decision to forget. BUT THEY DID unconsciously ALLOW something else to be so all encompassing to them that they forgot their responsibility and duty to their child. And to me in the end that is the ultimate part. They became so distracted, and preoccupied with other things, that their child, their blood, the one they are to protect and nurture, was pushed to a back burner to the point that they were forgotten. And again, all I can think is what went through those children''s minds. Again, if a dog is a federal offense, why isn''t a child, a child''s life. These children DIED because their parents FORGOT.... because they forgot about their child. Why on earth would any phone call, any shopping trip, any thought or present feeling be so overwhelming to a person that they would allow themselves to think only of that at ANY point and forget their child? I couldn''t even imagine forgetting my dog.... and she''s not a child... she is my dog. I just don''t believe that a person should allow themselves to be so preoccupied that they forget their duties to their family. And yes, they are allowing those things to be the most important thing in their lives. They may not have made a conscious decision to forget their child, and I understand that, but they are making a conscious decision to make those other things THAT COMPLETELY IMPORTANT to them.... that they focus solely on that at any given time needed.

Dragonfly, I don''t agree with you on how forgetting works. You don''t "allow" yourself to forget. It happens. For instance, ever decided you have to get something in another room. You go on autopilot and walk to the other room. You''re not thinking of anything else. Just walking. By the time you get there, you actually don''t know why you are in that room in the first place? And it took 5 seconds to forget Nothing else encompassed my mind. My mind simply just shut off for some strange reason.

It''s autopilot. Don''t tell me you haven''t been there. You don''t have to be THINKING of something else to forget something. You don''t have to allow yourself to be engrossed in something else to just blank out and function without thinking.

And honestly, I don''t think you can compare this to a dog. I won''t say anything further because I''ll offend dog lovers, I am sure. But in my opinion, this is more complex than that.

 

[basil]

Date: 3/11/2009 10:59:31 AM
Author: dragonfly411
In answer to responses to my last post. I do understand that this was not a conscious decision. They didn''t do it intentionally. I do get that. But yes these parents DID allow other things to be foremost in their mind before the children in their car. In so doing, they unwittingly pushed all conscious thought of the children to the back of their mind, allowing the other things to be the first thing and only thing they thought of at the time. They didn''t say ''I''m going to make my work my number one priority'' but they still did allow SOMETHING to become such a big priority that they forgot their child. I think that in today''s world, people are too easily slipping into auto-drive, focusing on work, or whatever it is that has them so busy, to the point that they don''t pay conscious attention to what they are doing, where they are, how they are driving, whether their children made it inside to school ok. It''s so sad to me to see parents dropping kids off, with a half hearted goodbye as they jabber on their cell phones about something at work, or double checking a grocery list. To me, if these parents had stayed grounded in the present moment, they might not have made the same mistake. But the fact of the matter is, it is still negligence, and it is child endangerment. A parent should NOT be so preoccupied that they forget their own child. I understand that they consciously thought they had dropped the child off later in the day, but where was the conscious thought during the car drive with the child?



I do understand they did not do this on purpose, they did not make a conscious decision to forget. BUT THEY DID unconsciously ALLOW something else to be so all encompassing to them that they forgot their responsibility and duty to their child. And to me in the end that is the ultimate part. They became so distracted, and preoccupied with other things, that their child, their blood, the one they are to protect and nurture, was pushed to a back burner to the point that they were forgotten. And again, all I can think is what went through those children''s minds. Again, if a dog is a federal offense, why isn''t a child, a child''s life. These children DIED because their parents FORGOT.... because they forgot about their child. Why on earth would any phone call, any shopping trip, any thought or present feeling be so overwhelming to a person that they would allow themselves to think only of that at ANY point and forget their child? I couldn''t even imagine forgetting my dog.... and she''s not a child... she is my dog. I just don''t believe that a person should allow themselves to be so preoccupied that they forget their duties to their family. And yes, they are allowing those things to be the most important thing in their lives. They may not have made a conscious decision to forget their child, and I understand that, but they are making a conscious decision to make those other things THAT COMPLETELY IMPORTANT to them.... that they focus solely on that at any given time needed.

Didn''t you say in a previous post that once you forgot to let your horse out? Isn''t that the same thing? Does that mean that your horse isn''t very important to you?

I don''t believe that forgetting something means it isn''t important to you. When I leave work, I often decide as I''m walking to the parking garage to go to the grocery store to get food for dinner. This requires me to turn left out of the parking garage rather than right, which is the route I take to go straight home. About 75% of the time, even if I am thinking about what to get at the grocery store, I turn right when I meant to go left. Because that is my routine. I didn''t forget about the grocery store cause I was just thinking about how I needed to get milk. And getting dinner is usually really important to me at the end of the day. I didn''t forget the grocery store and it wasn''t unimportant. I forgot to remind myself to turn left and go off of my usual path.

I don''t think that you can know that these parents forgot their child. I think that you can say that they forgot to make a turn off their usual path to drop off their child. And that''s something that anyone can do.

 

[dragonfly411]

I''m not saying they allowed themselves to forget, I''m saying they allowed something else to be SO completely important that they were able to forget. They allowed something else to be a higher priority at the time

I''m not saying their children were not important to them, you need to re read what I said. I''m saying that they allowed something else to be more important to them at the time, than getting their child to the destination, much less remember the child being in the car. That doesn''t make the child less important overall, but that they allowed a current event to become the most important thing in their mind at that time.

They did forget their child being there though. In not taking that turn, they had completely forgotten that their child was still present, all the way until they reached work, got out, and left them there the entire day. They forgot the child''s presence, forgot the child''s whereabouts, and forgot to take the child to where it was supposed to be. There falls the negligence. Again, a grocery trip is much different than a human life. This is a human life, and the parent forgot. Again, I am not saying they did so consciously or purposely. I do think that today''s world is very fast paced and we tend to allow ourselves (note the we, I do it too) to get too caught up in the issues of the moment, especially with work. I am of the belief that those issue should not become so overwhelming that you can''t focus on the moment at hand, and what you need to get done before you get there, and a child is a priority that comes before anything in my opinion.

Please understand that I am not saying the parents made a choice to forget their child, I''m not. I''m saying that they ARE making a choice to let things become so important that they can get that completely caught up in the moment, in their work, or feelings, or an argument, that they forgot their child. That is a choice that a person makes, to make something that big of a priority that something as tragic as this could end up happening. At the end of the day, was that job, or that phone conversation as important as the life of their child? No, and that is why I feel like people need to stop letting those things take over their world and life. A job is a job, but your children are everything....

 

[basil]

A grocery trip is clearly different than a child, but the brain mechanisms are the same. The part of our brain that places children as more important than grocery shopping, work, etc., is not the same part of the brain that caused those parents to miss the turn. Like I said, I can make the wrong turn to the grocery store while thinking about what groceries to buy. These parents could have made that wrong turn while thinking about what toy they were going to buy their child, or that they were going to take their children to the zoo over the weekend, or anything else. The only thing that they were not thinking was "turn here", and whatever they were thinking doesn''t have any bearing on the relative importance of the item to the parent.

 

[TravelingGal]

Date: 3/11/2009 12:56:10 PM
Author: dragonfly411
I''m not saying they allowed themselves to forget, I''m saying they allowed something else to be SO completely important that they were able to forget. They allowed something else to be a higher priority at the time

I''m not saying their children were not important to them, you need to re read what I said. I''m saying that they allowed something else to be more important to them at the time, than getting their child to the destination, much less remember the child being in the car. That doesn''t make the child less important overall, but that they allowed a current event to become the most important thing in their mind at that time.

They did forget their child being there though. In not taking that turn, they had completely forgotten that their child was still present, all the way until they reached work, got out, and left them there the entire day. They forgot the child''s presence, forgot the child''s whereabouts, and forgot to take the child to where it was supposed to be. There falls the negligence. Again, a grocery trip is much different than a human life. This is a human life, and the parent forgot. Again, I am not saying they did so consciously or purposely. I do think that today''s world is very fast paced and we tend to allow ourselves (note the we, I do it too) to get too caught up in the issues of the moment, especially with work. I am of the belief that those issue should not become so overwhelming that you can''t focus on the moment at hand, and what you need to get done before you get there, and a child is a priority that comes before anything in my opinion.

Please understand that I am not saying the parents made a choice to forget their child, I''m not. I''m saying that they ARE making a choice to let things become so important that they can get that completely caught up in the moment, in their work, or feelings, or an argument, that they forgot their child. That is a choice that a person makes, to make something that big of a priority that something as tragic as this could end up happening. At the end of the day, was that job, or that phone conversation as important as the life of their child? No, and that is why I feel like people need to stop letting those things take over their world and life. A job is a job, but your children are everything....

Dragonfly, you really seem to be missing the point many of us are making. Obviously the grocery trip is different than a human life. But what the article is saying is that the same mechanism that puts you on autopilot en route to the store is the same one that can make you get out of the car and forget your child. I don''t think anyone forgot because they "allowed" issues to "become so overwhelming that you can''t focus on the moment at hand." You do not need issues to become overwhelming to forget. As much as I would like to think we don''t forget the important things in life, and only forget the marginal stuff, it doesn''t always work that way. Yes, MOST of us will not forget our children in the carseats. But the ones that do, it is not because they let some other priority get head of the well being of their child. The fact that you would say someone would make a CHOICE to let something else get in the way of the wellbeing of a child is frankly, insulting.

Honestly, come back and talk to me after you have a kid. I''m not saying just because you don''t have a kid, that you aren''t entitled to your opinion, but I AM saying you don''t have the complete experience to be able to understand what a working parent (or a stay at home one, for that matter) goes through.