Burma Blues at NSC

[chrono]

Looks like PS ate my post!

In short, I wrote that while Kenny is looking at fine quality untreated Kashmir sapphires in person, he should note the shapes and cutting as well. I am sure he'll notice no asscher or square emerald cuts, nor precision cut sapphires for good reasons. Therefore, either something has to give in the requirements or spend $$$$$ to get a larger stone, then swallow the loss in $$$ value, accept the smaller mm dimensions and lesser carat weight in order to get an asscher cut Kashmir sapphire.

 

[movie zombie]

always a trade off, isn't it, Chrono?

mz

 

[brandy_z28]

Looks like PS ate my post!

In short, I wrote that while Kenny is looking at fine quality untreated Kashmir sapphires in person, he should note the shapes and cutting as well. I am sure he'll notice no asscher or square emerald cuts, nor precision cut sapphires for good reasons. Therefore, either something has to give in the requirements or spend $$$$$ to get a larger stone, then swallow the loss in $$$ value, accept the smaller mm dimensions and lesser carat weight in order to get an asscher cut Kashmir sapphire.

I get what you're saying Chrono but in theory, and depending on the ct weight and those price jumps associated with each mark, wouldn't a precision faceted sapphire be worth more than a badly cut one of similar ct weight and color? Depends on the buyer to an extent. I think it's quite possible to find a very nice sapphire and re-cut it and actually increase the value. Just as long as the re-cut doesn't take the sapphire below one of those price jump carat markers. I've seen some of Jeff White's recuts and they're He can take a, meh, ok sapphire and after the re-cut they're knockouts. That would mean that one of our expert lapidaries would have to be involved though. I wouldn't even begin to venture into those waters without an expert's opinion.

 

[Harriet]

A re-cut could change the colour of the stone.

 

[brandy_z28]

A re-cut could change the colour of the stone.

I forgot to mention that aspect as well. Thanks Harriet.

 

[Harriet]

A skilled lapidary like Jeff can give you some idea of what the colour will be like (e.g. more saturated, less saturated). But, what if you don't like the final outcome?

 

[brandy_z28]

A skilled lapidary like Jeff can give you some idea of what the colour will be like (e.g. more saturated, less saturated). But, what if you don't like the final outcome?

That is a good question and one that should definitely be asked beforehand. I don't have first hand experience working with Jeff so I can't say and don't trust my memory enough to say whether that was an option for the ladies on here that do have Jeff recuts.

 

[movie zombie]

after spending thousands per carat, i'd be loathe to trim anything off. i'd rather spend the $ upfront and get something great in the first place.

mz

 

[delayedreaction]

Jeff doesn't recut customer sourced stones anymore, so it's a moot point. Setting that aside, there's also the whole issue of a Kashmir blue being too dark for the Asscher cut.

Honestly if it were me looking to spend five digits per carat, and still didn't know where to compromise, I would commission a few precision cut synthetic sapphires with different priorities. One would be an Asscher in a lighter than ideal blue, another would be a step cut square emerald ideal color, and the last one would be a traditional cushion. I'd live with them for a month or two and see if there was one that I strongly preferred. Then I would go shopping with my little suite in my pocket.

 

[empress]

Kenny,

I'm not sure where in SoCal you are - but maybe a trip to Fred Leighton in Las Vegas would be worthwhile. Or travel up to Lang Antiques in San Francisco and look at their vintage sapphire rings. In addition to visiting Pala, of course. The more stones you see, the better.

TL, as for "over paying," I'm not sure what you mean. With all due respect, buying from Ebay doesn't equate with buying investment quality gemstones. You have to go to places/vendors/stores with real reputations for quality to see what that market is - it's not online. While you seem to have reservations about certain reputable, internationally respected vendors, that does not make their goods "over priced."

I have a friend that sells custom jewelry. She doesn't make it. She doesn't source the stones. She just designs it and uses top jewelers and sources to make her clients happy. Last month she had a pair of sapphire earrings made that sold for over $100k. Her clients would never try and purchase stones on their own. She deals at the top end of the market in NY. She wouldn't buy a stone on her own - she uses the best people to guide her purchases within a defined budget. Kenny, that's what you need to do if you are seriously thinking of investing in a Burmese or Kashmir stone of size - don't buy it on the internet.

Having said all that - this is a great place to put up pictures and ask questions and start to understand colored gems! The people here are most generous with their time and knowledge - and quite candid with their opinions.

 

[Gailey]

isn't NCS already on probation on PS for a certain copying of the matching pairs fiasco..would just blow right by them

Hallelujah! Give that man a biscuit!

 

[Harriet]

after spending thousands per carat, i'd be loathe to trim anything off. i'd rather spend the $ upfront and get something great in the first place.

mz

Well said.

 

[bgray]

Hi all--I would like to jump onto this thread and ask your thoughts on this stone I am considering. its Weight: 6.23 CT
Price: $44,856.00. this is pretty much the shape and i size i want (not the price unfortunately)

 

[T L]

Kenny,
TL, as for "over paying," I'm not sure what you mean. With all due respect, buying from Ebay doesn't equate with buying investment quality gemstones. You have to go to places/vendors/stores with real reputations for quality to see what that market is - it's not online. While you seem to have reservations about certain reputable, internationally respected vendors, that does not make their goods "over priced."

I don't only buy from ebay, but I find great bargains on ebay. I do think there have been some investment quality stones sold on there. Don't forget that ParaibaInternational, DBL, Lembeck, and Leibisch all have stores on ebay. I have seen very high quality "investment" gems with the proper papers sold on ebay for thousands of dollars by reputable vendors. I don't think it's fair to generalize about the quality of the vendors or people that sell on ebay. BTW, I have several ebay stones I would put up against some of Richard's any day. I find that attitude that ebay is all garbage to be rather snobbish, I'm sorry. I also don't think you have to spend a fortune to think you're getting something great.

I can show you some amazing gems purchased by people here that are in a class by themselves, and where did they come from, ebay. Chrono's recent trillion chrysoberyl comes to mind. That thing is outrageous, and I have yet to see one so fine. If I told you it came from Richard Wise, would you like it better?

 

[Michael_E]

after spending thousands per carat, i'd be loathe to trim anything off. i'd rather spend the $ upfront and get something great in the first place.

mz

Well said.

Yes, but the problem is in "getting something great". If you define "great" in terms of cutting you are probably talking about a precision cut stone which could be defined as one which is precisely symmetrical and cut at angles which maximize the color and scintillation of the stone. This is nearly impossible to find in a stone with top color, since they are generally not cut on precision equipment. The reality in getting this sort of stone is that you will more than likely need to have an existing stone re-cut if your want the best color AND the best cut. If you are going to get the best you need to approach a cutter who can tell you very closely what you are likely to end up with at the end of the process. The catch in this is that most cutters do not have the deepest of pockets and are unlikely to accept the financial responsibility for the end result...meaning that the stone will probably start as yours and end as yours whether you are happy with the outcome or not.

So how do you get what you want with the greatest assurance of an acceptable outcome ? You find a cutter with adequate experience in cut design as well as cutting you find a stone which has all the features that make it a suitable candidate for this sort of recut. You have the cut designed to fit the stone such that it only changes color in a positive way and then you have the design tested first in software and then in a synthetic. This gives you a very good idea of how the cut will work with you material. Once you're satisfied you pull the trigger and wait for the result. Since you've already cut a synthetic to your design and are satisfied with it you can be very certain that you final product will be excellent.

Isn't this expensive ? Yes, very much so. On the other hand you are not buying a chunk of jasper and to put $500 or even $1000 into recutting a top color sapphire could be more than made up for in the increased value obtained in the finished stone. This higher value would come from both the increased weight retention in going through an intensive design process and the test cut in synthetic as well as the increased beauty of the finished stone.

Since I'm yakking it up here I do have to add that some of those lopsided or windowed cuts that you see will actually look really good at certain angles. If you're short and going to wear them in a pendant, then there is no reason to recut them...just set them so that they look their best when angled up and hang around with tall people. How's that for a solution ?

 

[movie zombie]

yes, its very hard to find "great"....and that's going to be different for each buyer.

personally, i'd shop until i dropped to find the stone......but precision cut would not necessarily be my primary concern. its all about the color for me. and i wouldn't necessarily be picky re the shape either. again, its color, baby, color

if i couldn't find what i was looking for over the course of a year or even more....assuming i've got no deadline and i'd already worked with a couple of vendors to source for me.....then i'd work with a cutter. i'd exhaust every resource before that though merely because as you stated most cutters do not have deep pockets....

if i had kenny's budget, i'm pretty sure i could find a blue sapphire that would meet my needs and please my eye. might take some time and energy, but i'm betting it already exists in that budget range.

mz

 

[empress]

TL - This isn't a pi**ing contest.

Lembeck has been off ebay for almost a year. As for the others...???

My point is - as a newbie sapphire buyer - with high, gem quality aspirations - Kenny should not be buying online. PERIOD.

I don't know who you buy from other than your posts. That is the charm of online chats - it's a compressed community. Our knowledge of each other is limited. The stones you have posted speak for themselves.

Cheers,

 

[T L]

TL - This isn't a pi**ing contest.

Lembeck has been off ebay for almost a year. As for the others...???

My point is - as a newbie sapphire buyer - with high, gem quality aspirations - Kenny should not be buying online. PERIOD.

I don't know who you buy from other than your posts. That is the charm of online chats - it's a compressed community. Our knowledge of each other is limited. The stones you have posted speak for themselves.

Cheers,

Empress,
My issue was your generalization. I took offense to that, and I can see that others might as well who do buy off ebay and take pride in their gems. Since you don't know who to buy from on ebay, then you shouldn't generalize about it. I am also not the spokesperson for ebay, on Pricescope, or otherwise.

If Kenny cannot buy online, how is he supposed to shop around unless he flies everywhere to see everything in person? That seems a bit unrealistic. Buying online can open the doors for people to find a wider array of loose gems in various qualities, even top quality. I don't know if Kenny can afford top quality, but he certainly is helping himself by investigating possible candidates online. While I do agree that if you're buying a top top quality investment gem, for many tens of thousands of dollars, it might be worthwhile to fly there to see it in person, sometimes it's not feasible.

 

[soberguy]

Not sure I will say anything that hasn't already been said. But my two cents lol! I have traveled around the world, and visit every single jewelry store I come to. I'm obsessed with gemstones, as is my little brother. I have seen sapphires in mom and pop little shops that very nearly stopped my heart, and have seen sapphires in Bulgari, Harry Winston, and Cartier that were total duds TO MY EYES. I think the trick here... is that a sapphire has to speak to you. That's the beauty of colored stones. All that matters is what YOU think. I happen to like darker emeralds than are considered "top of the line". Well... Lucky me lol! However, when it comes to alexandrites, I demand vivid bluish green to vivid REDDISH purple. Nothing else does it for me. In sapphires, I entirely prefer the rutile silk in Kashmirs. I get lost in them. I have spent HOURS looking at mine under the microscope... in the sun, in every light lol. I have seen a few from Burma with a similar velvety appearance. Others here prefer extremely clean, and crisp stones. What do you like? Unless you are looking for an "investment" gemstone, figure out what YOU like. If you intend to wear this stone, and have it be a part of your everyday life... then it's ALL about you baby lol!
Don't dismiss Ebay. You can find some truly GORGEOUS sapphires on Ebay that are certified by various and sundry labs, and whose sellers will sometimes send to whatever lab you like for further certification. I will not name names... not sure that is in the best interest here... but I have had GIA certify stones, and had them appraised at prices that I would NEVER have been able to afford in a retail setting... I've called and asked... The retail price was completely absurd lol! I know how much the rough was LOL! And don't be afraid to ask vendors about their prices. Why are their stones so much more than others? Reputation is a scary thing. I agree with TL here in totality. I have seen an experts eye fail them a time or two, as have others on PS. GET CERTIFIED STONES from a reputable lab... ONLY way to go.

 

[chrono]

Brandy,
It all depends on the quality and size of the sapphire. It is just impossible to find a precision cut very finely coloured unheated sapphires of large sizes because nobody wants to lose $$$$$$$ and thus, cut to preserve as much carat weight as possible while maximizing the colour. I am talking about sapphires with valuation above $15K for something around 2 ct due to the extreme rarity of colour. For stones of lesser quality and under $10K, I can see that it might be worth a recut to precision standards as the weight and valuation loss isn’t as great and material as rare. There is also some risk with recutting as well, hence Barry, Gene and a few other lapidaries refuse to recut stones. There are no guarantees that a feather will not grow (end up with smaller stone), colour zoning will become more apparent, lesser saturation due to the now shorter light path, and etc. which all affect the value negatively.

Michael,
Your suggestion is all fine but it is for the ideal candidate. The accuracy with the use of the software depends on the skill of the lapidary himself with many presumptions made. And in a synthetic trial, you are also using something with ideal colour evenly distributed throughout the stone, whereas in the real gemstone, there might be zoning or some uneven colour to be accommodated.

 

[Harriet]

personally, i'd shop until i dropped to find the stone......but precision cut would not necessarily be my primary concern. its all about the color for me. and i wouldn't necessarily be picky re the shape either. again, its color, baby, color
mz

MZ,
Word!

There's another option which hasn't been mentioned -- buy from a vendor who's already had the gem tweaked. Even if the gem is not 'precision' cut, it'll still have acceptable cutting. That way, you know exactly what you're getting.

 

[Harriet]

Would someone please define "investment stone?"

 

[bgray]

anyone have thoughts on the stone i posted--its from natural sapphire company?

 

[T L]

bgray,
If you read through the entire thread, NSC does not have a very good reputation, and the fact that they refuse to provide an AGL with expensive sapphires is enough reason for me NOT to shop with them, even if they were selling the greatest sapphires on earth. While I feel that most reputable labs that can test for diffusion are good enough for a relatively inexpensive sapphire, I would never buy a very expensive colored gem without an AGL. Of course, the word "expensive" is subjective, but if I were spending over $5K on a sapphire, I would require an AGL.

BTW, found an interesting article on AGL's reputation for colored stones, and why AGTA closed down if anyone is interested.
http://www.preciousgemstones.com/gffall09.html

 

[bgray]

does anyone have a reputable source for sapphires?

 

[brandy_z28]

Jeff doesn't recut customer sourced stones anymore, so it's a moot point.

Thanks for pointing that out. He does not recut customer sourced stones but he has sourced stones himself for customers that he has recut.

 

[Nashville]

Is an investment gem something that could be sold after purchase without losing, or actually gaining resale value?

 

[brandy_z28]

Brandy,
It all depends on the quality and size of the sapphire. It is just impossible to find a precision cut very finely coloured unheated sapphires of large sizes because nobody wants to lose $$$$$$$ and thus, cut to preserve as much carat weight as possible while maximizing the colour. I am talking about sapphires with valuation above $15K for something around 2 ct due to the extreme rarity of colour. For stones of lesser quality and under $10K, I can see that it might be worth a recut to precision standards as the weight and valuation loss isn’t as great and material as rare. There is also some risk with recutting as well, hence Barry, Gene and a few other lapidaries refuse to recut stones. There are no guarantees that a feather will not grow (end up with smaller stone), colour zoning will become more apparent, lesser saturation due to the now shorter light path, and etc. which all affect the value negatively.

Michael,
Your suggestion is all fine but it is for the ideal candidate. The accuracy with the use of the software depends on the skill of the lapidary himself with many presumptions made. And in a synthetic trial, you are also using something with ideal colour evenly distributed throughout the stone, whereas in the real gemstone, there might be zoning or some uneven colour to be accommodated.

But wouldn't the value of a finely colored precision cut sapphire then increase because of it's rarity to have both in one package? There are so many factors to weigh in and I'm not an expert on any of them but was just curious. *IF* a top color precision faceted sapphire did exist wouldn't that make it more valuable and even more rare? I know there are risks and almost endless variables and this is not something I'd do myself unless I won the lotto or something. I don't have that kind of cash to risk or invest.

 

[chrono]

Even presuming that after the recut, the fineness of colour, tone and saturation is maintained and only the brilliance, symmetry and polish improved, the value will most likely still be less than it was originally for several reasons:
1. The carat weight loss. For the very finest of untreated Kashmir sapphires, every slight loss equals major moolah when you consider that it can be valued as high as $5K per carat to $10K per carat or even greater for larger sizes. Depending on how much tweaking is needed, one can easily lose anywhere from the low thousand to high thousands of dollars on a recut. No amount of precision cutting is worth that much per carat.
2. Skill and cost of cutter. In order to get the caliber of lapidary that is willing to risk that is probably going to be far more expensive than the preferred cutters we know on PS. We are no longer talking about a $100 to $200 recut job.

Of course, when comparing a precision cut 3 ct unheated Kashmir sapphire with a good native cut 3 ct unheated Kashmir sapphire of like quality, the precision cut stone will be valued more. However, nobody (vendor or buyer) is willing to take the huge loss in value to recut a 5 carat unheated Kashmir sapphire of very fine quality into a precision cut 3 ct unheated Kashmir sapphire as the loss will be in the tens of thousands of dollars. Therefore, even if I do have the finances for it, I’d rather keep the 5 ct unheated super fine native cut Kashmir sapphire than subject it to a precision recut.

 

[chrono]

anyone have thoughts on the stone i posted--its from natural sapphire company?

Bgray,
Please provide a link to the stone so that I can see additional views (pavilion and profile) of the sapphire. Also, it will be helpful to know the treatment, origin, lab cert, measurements and etc before commenting.