Burma Blues at NSC

[kenny]

Thanks guys.

 

[Gailey]

When I called NSC I asked why no AGL reports.
They said AGL's reputation has declined recently.

Agreed?

I'm no expert, but I would venture their comment says more about NSC's reputation than it does about AGL.

Kenny, have you done a search for NSC threads in CS? They make for interesting reading.

 

[kenny]

Thanks for the tip Gailey.
I most certainly will.

 

[T L]

Maybe they're afraid of the AGL's comments on the quality of the sapphire on their reports. I'm sure many vendors are probably ambivalent about providing all that information to clients

 

[kenny]

Maybe they're afraid of the AGL's comments on the quality of the sapphire on their reports. I'm sure many vendors are probably ambivalent about providing all that information to clients

I'm a client who won't buy without information, maximum information from the most reputable independent sources possible.

 

[T L]

That's very strange what they said about AGL because what does reputation have with grading a natural sapphire as what it is, natural? The GIA does that, and states the treatment, but that's about it. I'm sure AGL is just as capable of providing that same information, but they also provide more information. Unless AGL is undergrading their stone quality, I don't know why they're so worried. What if they were to overgrade it and say it was 'Excellent" when in fact, it was only "Very Good" quality, would NSC be happy then?

I have not heard any major scandals coming out of the AGL, I have heard some coming out of the GIA, but that's another thread.

 

[iLander]

So why are some prices published and some secret at the same vendor?

Any theories?

On Richard's site, if the price isn't listed, it's because it's over $5,000. That's my understanding.

You can trust Richard, he doesn't mess around. He's written a couple of books on gems (check Amazon) and he has a pretty solid reputation.

NSC is not very good. Just search their name on this forum, they have gone downhill over the last few years. One thread on PS was devoted to the photos of "pairs" of sapphires at NSC. They just basically duplicated the same pic and tried to tell everyone they were 2 different stones. Not a lot of respect for the customer. I checked their site recently and their "pairs" are multiplying. They're using one pic for several stones now.

Run from them.

As far as what they said about AGL, well, frankly, that's just bull . . .

 

[T L]

I am actually trying to get to the bottom of that comment from NSC. If I hear anything, I'll report back.

 

[kenny]

So why are some prices published and some secret at the same vendor?
Any theories?

On Richard's site, if the price isn't listed, it's because it's over $5,000.

That's not a reason.
That's a policy.

Any business has the right to any policy they want.
I just like understanding the reasons for things.

 

[empress]

What is more rare appeals to me, Kashmir/Burma origin.
I think I don't mind if the blue has a little little violet and is a little darker than what I (at this early stage) perceive to be considered the peak of desirability.

Cut shape in order of preference:
Asscher
Emerald - the more square the better - I don't like long emerald cuts
Squarish cushion

I think you may have to prioritize here - an asscher cut is modern - and highly unlikely to be found in Kashmir or Burma stones. Unless someone has pre-embargo Burma rough - you won't find an asscher - and the cut is more appropriate for lighter stones.

Emerald cut sapphires are rare in top colors - especially ones with silk - and a "square emerald" is much more rare in any stone.

 

[PinkTower]

Another route is to contact some of the well known cutters who post on here and ask them to keep you in mind when they go on buying trips. If you search around on here, you will see numerous references to their trips. I did this about 18 months ago. The cutter came back empty-handed. I am still looking for that particular stone, and neither I, nor the cutter, has found one yet. The positive way to look at this is that the professionals who post on here will not lower their standards just to make a sale.

As so many of the more experienced members of Colored Stones have said, searching for a Sapphire, or a Tsavorite, or whatever else you are looking for is not an exact science, and there aren't any numbers to plug into the formula and hit "Search." But, that is what makes this so enjoyable. Take your time, and enjoy the process.

-Pink

 

[Lady_Disdain]

So why are some prices published and some secret at the same vendor?
Any theories?

On Richard's site, if the price isn't listed, it's because it's over $5,000.

That's not a reason.
That's a policy.

Any business has the right to any policy they want.
I just like understanding the reasons for things.

As others have mentioned in this thread, the main reason is that many very high end collectors (let's just say, higher than 95% of PSers - off the top of my head, there are only 2, maybe 3, posters in this stratospheric sphere) don't like details of their stones being available. In fact, the highest end stones will very rarely be posted online and will only be shown to serious collectors who have established relationships with the dealers oron auctions. Often, details will not be listed and will be only be revealed to prospective buyers.

Very high end coloured stone world is a very strange place, with its own culture. A stone may have no equal for you to compare prices (too many variables to match...) and you may have to just try to place it on a relative scale with everything else you have seen.

Richard deals with those buyers. Why did he set the cut off at $5,000 specifically? I have no idea.

 

[kenny]

Here's another.
Why is this 4 ct Kashmir only $14K?

What's wrong with this one?

http://kashmirblue.com/Sapphire/Certs/profileLG10283.html#

 

[T L]

Here's another.
Why is this 4 ct Kashmir only $14K?

What's wrong with this one?

http://kashmirblue.com/Sapphire/Certs/profileLG10283.html#

It is cut very very wonky, and it appears that there is some zoning and eye visible inclusions face up. The AGL is not the top of the line prestige report, so there is nothing on it mentioning the quality of color or clarity or zoning. I would want pavillion views against a white background. The saturation is stated as "medium" so I take that to mean it's not really strong or vivid, so it is probably not a top quality or very high quality sapphire, even though it's from Kashmir. I would ask about the saturation, but my gut is that it's not very strong.

 

[Michael_E]

As far as what they said about AGL, well, frankly, that's just bull . . .

Not so. The AGL changed ownership a year ago or so and that change did affect their reputation in the trade. Here's a link:
http://www.nationaljewelernetwork.c...s/grading/e3i73a607e8e83226da4138bd6d2da24435

As for all this stuff about sapphires...you guy's have to understand that you see a very small number of the stones which are available and those that you do see are from firms which have decided to offer their stuff at a retail level on the 'net. Their are many others who either do not have websites or have websites which are only accessible to the trade. Basically if you want something you don't HAVE to mess around with trotting around the globe searching for it. You do, however, need to be be willing to pay close to the price asked and, if you are exceptionally particular, be willing to pay the price for shipping and insurance for those pieces that you may want to actually look at. The reason that some of the cutters you are familiar with are running around looking for stuff in Africa is that by doing so, they can get the stones at much lower costs than buying an already cut stones here and recutting them to get a well cut stone, (plus it's a fun adventure). The last Kashmir sapphire shown is a very good case in point. If the inclusions are small and the color good, that stone could easily be recut to a 3+ carat stone, look much finer than it does now and still be worth much more than was paid for it.

I think that the thing which really grabs my funny bone and shakes it is this comment from TL,

With all due respect to Richard, I rather not pay for his "eye." I always find that comment a bit hilarious and I have heard it on several occasions, and even from him. Many of us give our opinions on this board every day, and although many of us may not be in the trade, I think you can trust many of us to give an honest opinion and our "eye" at no extra cost .

Really TL ? Have you spent years in the field procuring gems, studying gems and writing well respected books about gems ? How will people avail themselves of your "eye" ? I hope not through pictures, since we all know that the stones described in them can change dramatically with different lighting conditions, background and foregrounds. A buyer really does NEED someone with a good eye LOOKING at the actual gem and not just it's picture. It's kind of strange that their are so many STRONG opinions floating around about gems here, which are based on pictures, when no professional would ever try to make similar claims without seeing the piece.

I think that this place is a great resource for opinions, but remember that those opinions are based on pictures, are generally not offered by professionals and can often be somewhat misleading. Kenny, if you're going to cough up a significant amount of loot, I would suggest finding one professional vendor, (I am not implying myself, as all you'll get from me is an opinion), who you trust and let them do the digging in areas which are hidden from you. You should not be too hung up on certs since what you are looking for is pretty obvious with a simple microscopic examination, (e.g.,you can't have diffusion without intense heat and this heating is usually obvious under the microscope) and getting a new cert from a lab of your choice is fast and easy. As a counterpoint I would suggest using a professional appraiser to check everything.

 

[chrono]

Price dingers for the sapphire:
1. Moderately included
2. Lower level of brilliance
3. Poor native cutting (badly lopsided pavilion)
4. Looks like there is some zoning
5. Saturation isn’t of fine quality

 

[T L]

With all due repsect to you Michael, I rather have the unbiased, opinons of people on this board, than a person I'm buying the actual gem from. If Richard gave his opinion on a gem that he was not selling, I would be fine with that, but to pay a premium because someone has "an eye" for gems is a bit silly when we have so much free advice from Pricescopers and education on the net. As with anything, research, and education, for me, rules. I have been collecting gems for 20 years, so I have some experience, as do many people on Pricescope. Sorry you feel offended that you thought I was picking on another vendor. About photographs, you're correct that you should not only judge a gem from a photo, and that's why I tell people to ask lots of questions, and the RIGHT questions, to the vendor.

That being said, I do admire Richard's devotion to this field, I respect his opinion, and I own one of his books. I just simply don't believe in paying a premium for someone's eye. That's me. Others may beg to differ and want to pay that premium.

As for the AGL's reputation, I did some investigation, and did find out they changed hands and were having financial difficulties, but that has long been resolved. A couple of years later, it was purchased by Christopher Smith, a gemologist with a "stellar reputation" according to someone who is also a gemologist themself. Based on this, if it is true, I think NSC's claim today is unfounded. Perhaps they are a bit upset about where AGL claims origin or the quality ratings. This is just speculation, but I see no reason why they shouldn't use AGL.

 

[T L]

You should not be too hung up on certs since what you are looking for is pretty obvious with a simple microscopic examination, (e.g.,you can't have diffusion without intense heat and this heating is usually obvious under the microscope) and getting a new cert from a lab of your choice is fast and easy. As a counterpoint I would suggest using a professional appraiser to check everything.

All diffused stones are heated, and although heating may be obvious under the microscope, diffusion is not always obvious. There is a huge price difference between a sapphire that is just heated and one that is diffused. I personally would want to know if a heated stone ws diffused.

 

[Harriet]

TL,
I doubt that Michael is referring only to your comment about Richard. As for posters' "opinions," they are still based on photographs. Ultimately, it's the buyer himself who views the actual stone. For a novice, purchasing an expensive stone can be daunting without real life help.

 

[Harriet]

TL,
Would you mind posting one of your AGL reports so that we can see how detailed they are? Thanks.

 

[chrono]

Harriet,
You can find the details here on the Prestige report.
http://www.aglgemlab.com/services/Prestige.aspx

 

[Harriet]

Chrono,
Thanks.

 

[sparkles]

Hi Kenny,

Have been watching your posts with interest. I originally joined the colored spectrum as a result of my yearning for a sapphire. I have deviated somewhat from my original quest - but that's another story.

Bottom line. Buying diamonds and gemstones are polar opposites. 1000 people can give you opinions on the stones you are posting. Irrespective of well meaning intentions, you may still not be certain and come up short and not confident enough to pull the trigger.

If you are thinking about plunking down a fair share of dough on a sapphire - to me that means anywhere from $30 - 60k, you need to be physically viewing the stones. Try and find someone in the biz who has a good reputation, at least a decade of experience, applicable qualifications and deals only in fine gem quality merchandise. Then you may like to enquire as to whether they have the stock and the time to show you. Do your research and find out from a trade perspective, what the most desirable specs are and decide what you like, not deviating too much from the trade preferences. If you get the chance to view a good number of stones in the presence of a well regarded expert, you should then have enough education enabling your process of elimination.

I would expect, at least a well known lab certification to be produced with the stone of choice.

For me. I'd rather not have a sapphire if it wasn't fine gem quality with no treatments whatsoever. Which is why I have been sidetracked buying other stones from new finds, trying to source stones from old finds and buying stones that are good value for their species.

If I sound like a snob, I probably am. From the time I could walk I have never been interested in cheap jewelry and have never owned any. I would rather go without, than spend a couple of hundred dollars or even a couple of thousand on a stone, that in top quality and decent size, commands a couple of zeroes more. But get me to spend less than $100 on a pair of shoes, well thats another story...lol. Each to their own, which makes for an interesting place on PS.

You have been given the usual list of suspects to approach, and if you are looking for a top quality stone you may also like to visit other gemstone forums for additional direction.

All the best in your search
Can't wait to see what you ultimately decide on.

 

[kenny]

Thank you so much, all of you, for your valuable input.
I'm lucky to get such wise advice.

 

[movie zombie]

Michael E and Sparkles state the case for why someone will pay for another''s eye.....and work with a fine gem vendor as well. again, kenny, you are in socal....why not go a bit further and visit Pala?

mz

 

[Barrett]

isn't NCS already on probation on PS for a certain copying of the matching pairs fiasco..would just blow right by them

 

[T L]

MZ,
That's perfectly fine, but I prefer to cut costs where I can, and do the research myself and shop around as prices can be very convoluted in the colored gem world based on various qualities. We all have our priorities in life, and I personally don't care for spending a premium on a stone because someone picked it out with their eye, which is not perfect (case in point, the dark grey "cobalt blue spinel"). I know Richard and other vendors have their groupies, but I prefer to be unbiased about all vendors, even ones I shop with quite a bit.

 

[Harriet]

MZ,
That's perfectly fine, but I prefer to cut costs where I can, and do the research myself and shop around as prices can be very convoluted in the colored gem world based on various qualities. We all have our priorities in life, and I personally don't care for spending a premium on a stone because someone picked it out with their eye, which is not perfect (case in point, the dark grey "cobalt blue spinel"). I know Richard and other vendors have their groupies, but I prefer to be unbiased about all vendors, even ones I shop with quite a bit.

TL,
Exactly! Not all eyes are perfect (fine, experienced, what have you). The proof of the pudding is in its eating. What is a vendor's inventory like? What is a collector's collection like? As you yourself have said, the key is education. Like MZ suggests, that entails actually handling fine gems.

Kenny,
I second MZ about visiting Pala. Go also to museums (perhaps the LA County Museum) and shows. You will begin to learn how to separate the weed from the chaff.

 

[T L]

TL,
Exactly! Not all eyes are perfect (fine, experienced, what have you). The proof of the pudding is in its eating. What is a vendor's inventory like? What is a collector's collection like? As you yourself have said, the key is education. Like MZ suggests, that entails actually handling fine gems.

Kenny,
I second MZ about visiting Pala. Go also to museums (perhaps the LA County Museum) and shows.

Harriet,
You're right, not all eyes are perfect, that's why it's important to not pay a premium for them, and to shop around, educate yourself, visit musuems, ask lots of the right questions, and ask for other experienced opinions as well.

 

[Harriet]

isn't NCS already on probation on PS for a certain copying of the matching pairs fiasco..would just blow right by them

That doesn't mean that their stones are dross. A while back, I saw a gorgeous Kashmir there.

NB. As vendors have to cater to different price points, I'm not sure how many can afford to stock the best.