Burma Blues at NSC

[kenny]

Natural Sapphire Company has over 400 Ceylon Blues.
They have just 5 Burma Blues and one Kasmir Blue.

Only the most expensive one of their five Burma Blues, $65K, has a GIA lab report that verifies origin.
The next most expensive has an AGTA with no origin.
The other 3 have no lab report at all even though they cost between $5K and $19K.

I called them and they said they'd be glad to get one for me at no additional cost.
That's nice but since Burma sells for a substantial premium over Ceylon so why don't they just cough up the $200 for orgin reports?
I'll bet the majority of potential buyers don't call and they loose sales.

Oh . . . and whatcha think of this Burma Blue and it's price?

http://www.thenaturalsapphirecompany.com/Sapphires/Blue/Cushion/stoneid=B3438

Good buy?
Keep shopping?

 

[kenny]

When I called NSC I asked why no AGL reports.
They said AGL's reputation has declined recently.

Agreed?

 

[jstarfireb]

Oh . . . and whatcha think of this Burma Blue and it's price?

http://www.thenaturalsapphirecompany.com/Sapphires/Blue/Cushion/stoneid=B3438

Good buy?
Keep shopping?

I'm no sapphire expert by any stretch, but I'd keep looking. While the color and shape are appealing, the stone is hugely windowed, and that's a dealbreaker for me. I wouldn't spend $5k on a windowed stone.

 

[kenny]

Oh . . . and whatcha think of this Burma Blue and it's price?

http://www.thenaturalsapphirecompany.com/Sapphires/Blue/Cushion/stoneid=B3438

Good buy?
Keep shopping?

I'm no sapphire expert by any stretch, but I'd keep looking. While the color and shape are appealing, the stone is hugely windowed, and that's a dealbreaker for me. I wouldn't spend $5k on a windowed stone.

Thank you.
Do you say that because it is 52% deep or something you see in the pics?
If the later what do you see?

I recognize windowing when a stone is resting between fingers, but can you see windowing in this stone?
If so, which view?
What gives it away?

The more I learn the less I'll bother the community with stupid questions.

 

[kenny]

In the top view why do we not see the culet and lower facets if its clarity is so high?

 

[FrekeChild]

Short answer:
Because it's cut like crap.

Longer answer:
That thing is super shallow and hugely windowed. Far far far from any kind of optimal angles. You should be able to find a decent sapphire with a decent cut (that will sparkle instead of the light just going through) for that price, even if it is "native" cut.

You can do better Kenny. WAAAAAAAAAAAAAY BETTER.

ETA: Clarity usually doesn't count much for colored stones, unless it's an inclusion like horsetails in demantoids, or silk in sapphires--where the inclusion UPS the price. The reason you can see through it? Cut. Period. If you can see the detail of the background, it's windowed. I'm sure someone will probably be around with that picture of the windowed stone on newsprint next to the non-windowed stone eventually. You shouldn't be able to see through a well cut colored stone looking at it straight on. Period.

 

[LtlFirecracker]

It looks windowed to me as well. It is probably going to show leakage when exposed to light. You can "close" a window by setting it, but one that large would give a significant amount of extinction.

Have you looked at Richard Wise's website? There are some fairly nice sapphires on his site, and I know he has many more stones that he does not list.

 

[kenny]

Short answer:
Because it's cut like crap.

Longer answer:
That thing is super shallow and hugely windowed. Far far far from any kind of optimal angles.

Thanks.

To avoid posting the same question over and over what are these optimal angles?

 

[FrekeChild]

It's different for every stone. I don't know about sapphires, but numbers aren't really the thing to go by with colored stones. You should go by your eye--NSC gives out maps of cuts, but honestly, those just make me cringe because they reveal so much about how badly *most* of the stones are cut....

Be back...

 

[kenny]

It looks windowed to me as well. It is probably going to show leakage when exposed to light. You can "close" a window by setting it, but one that large would give a significant amount of extinction.

Once again, what exactly makes it look windowed to you?
Can anyone here put it into words?

 

[LtlFirecracker]

Colored stones are not like diamonds, as optimal angles are hard to define. I have herd depths sallower than the low- mid 60 percent will window, but I have a sapphire that has 62% depth and it has a tiny window. Some sapphires are actually cut deep (have have seen some up to 100% depth) and show great brilliance. When looking at the stone, look for that flat spot in the center you see, and if it is a good vendor ask them.

 

[empress]

The big blank area in the middle of the stone is the window. No facets, no sparkle just flat color...It's so big it's the whole table.

 

[FrekeChild]

Here is an example, just pink.

If you can see through the stone, like it's a flat piece of glass, like this:
http://www.thenaturalsapphirecompany.com/Sapphires/Pink/P463/Cushion/stoneid=P463
Then it's windowed.

If you can see facets through the middle, like this:
http://www.thenaturalsapphirecompany.com/Sapphires/Pink/P2336/Cushion/stoneid=P2336
Then it's not windowed.

Does this help at all?

 

[Kismet]

It looks windowed to me as well. It is probably going to show leakage when exposed to light. You can "close" a window by setting it, but one that large would give a significant amount of extinction.

Once again, what exactly makes it look windowed to you?
Can anyone here put it into words?

It's windowed because you can see clear through it rather than seeing reflections of the girdle facets; the brilliance is all around the edges and none in the center.

 

[LtlFirecracker]

This is what we are referring to

 

[FrekeChild]

Windowed:
http://www.thenaturalsapphirecompany.com/Sapphires/Blue/B2294/Round/stoneid=B2294

Not windowed:
http://www.thenaturalsapphirecompany.com/Sapphires/Blue/B3970/Round/stoneid=B3970

Mind you, these "not windowed" at NSC are still not great cuts, but at least they aren't windowed.

 

[Nashville]

Short answer:
Because it's cut like crap.

Longer answer:
That thing is super shallow and hugely windowed. Far far far from any kind of optimal angles. You should be able to find a decent sapphire with a decent cut (that will sparkle instead of the light just going through) for that price, even if it is "native" cut.

You can do better Kenny. WAAAAAAAAAAAAAY BETTER.

ETA: Clarity usually doesn't count much for colored stones, unless it's an inclusion like horsetails in demantoids, or silk in sapphires--where the inclusion UPS the price. The reason you can see through it? Cut. Period. If you can see the detail of the background, it's windowed. I'm sure someone will probably be around with that picture of the windowed stone on newsprint next to the non-windowed stone eventually. You shouldn't be able to see through a well cut colored stone looking at it straight on. Period.

I agree. In my pad search, I found NSC's cuts to be less than what I expected for the money they are charging. Not to mention some questionable customer service issues upon further review.

Kenny, I'm just going by your Octavia thread, but if you prefer tension settings, I bet that window is going to bug the crap out of you (that is if you plan to set it). Sometimes windows can be cleverly disguised by prong work and such, but this doesn't seem like a great choice for the money. That blue is really nice though.

 

[LtlFirecracker]

This explains it well

http://www.ruby-sapphire.com/brilliance_windows_extinction.htm

 

[FrekeChild]

Here is the picture that usually comes up in a "Lets teach a newbie colored stoner what a window is!"

 

[kenny]

Here is the picture that usually comes up in a "Lets teach a newbie colored stoner what a window is!"

Easy to see when the stone is on something you can see, like writing or a finger.
Harder to see when the stone is on a white background.

But now with that image with the table window circled I get it.

So in a top-view not being able to see any facets on the pavilion or the culet under the table means windowing.
(Unless the clarity is like swamp water)
Thanks guys.

 

[FrekeChild]

Yup! Bingo!

I have a stone that looks kinda like swamp water. Don't knock it 'til you try it! (I couldn't afford a big ol' Mahenge spinel otherwise!)

ETA: It still doesn't have a window though!

 

[kenny]

This thread is a great example of why the, "All that matters is that you love it" approach is dangerous.

The ignorant shopper may fall in love, buy it, then fall out of love after they learn more.

 

[MakingTheGrade]

Can't say anything that hasn't already been said about the window, you seem to have a grasp on it now

But have you tried Richard Wise? His prices are on the high side compared to some of the more regular PS colored stone vendors, but he also deals in more "investment quality stones" and from what I've heard he provides excellent service, and of course expertise.

If I were looking to spend a significant amount of money on a colored stone purchase, especially a sapphire (there are so many treatments and trickeries out there. And small things that can potentially greatly affect value), I would want to have an expert in my corner, and Richard is definitely an expert. To me, the peace of mind is worth what might be a little extra mark up since the world of colored stone seems to have many more nooks and crannies that you can fall into when compared to the diamond world.

http://www.rwwise.com/products/category|92

 

[Burberrygirl]

I totally agree with what everyone else has already said. Kenny, you can do way better. I hope you find the perfect sapphire for you... especially one without a window. : )

ETA: Ditto to Richard Wise. That's a great recommendation, MTG.

 

[kenny]

But have you tried Richard Wise? His prices are on the high side compared to some of the more regular PS colored stone vendors, but he also deals in more "investment quality stones" and from what I've heard he provides excellent service, and of course expertise.

http://www.rwwise.com/products/category|92

Most of the the prices for stones I've checked out on that site are secret.
I don't like secret pricing.
I like transparent published pricing.

 

[FrekeChild]

This thread is a great example of why the, "All that matters is that you love it" approach is dangerous.

The ignorant shopper may fall in love, buy it, then fall out of love after they learn more.

HUGE Ditto!

But I still have bought things that I LOVED, and others warned me against them, or said that they weren't "ideal" but To this day I still love them.

Say, my pure gray spinel for one. There is a certain member here who loathes gray and brown in stones (TL, I'm looking at YOU!) and I'm sure she just laughs at me for my adoration of gray stones!

 

[FrekeChild]

So, you won't call and ask for pricing? I have found that when the price isn't published, it's often either A. negotiable or B. it'll scare the pants off of a casual browser. Either way, if I was super interested, I'd call. Just me though.

 

[kenny]

So, you won't call and ask for pricing?

Nope.
No published price, no sale.

Published prices means both sides of the negotiating process had to happen in the seller's mind.
Price it too high, nobody responds.
Price it too low, make unacceptable profit.

Pricing of these goods is very mysterious and complex.
Published prices help the shopper compare.
Yes yes yes, I know every stone is unique, blah blah blah.
But at least a little data feels better than no data.
A little knowledge is better than total ignorance.

I will not buy if I don't feel the price is fair.
I'm not a just trust the vendor kind of guy for whatever price they reveal after sizing me up.
Sorry.
I want pricing before I'll make a move.

I've spent a small fortune on diamonds recently.
All had published prices.

I realize I may end up not getting a stone as a result of my attitude.
Better that than feel uncomfortable about the purchase.

 

[delayedreaction]

Kenny have you looked at Richard Homer's sapphire list? Since you're really into cut, Richard's work, if you like concave faceting, should be right up your alley. He's also super friendly and will answer lots of questions over email. Prices are all published too. His prices are definitely higher than most but that's because you're buying the work of the guy who perfected concave faceting. He does give a small pricescope discount.

Just a warning, while Richard does disclose treatments like irradiation, BE etc, you need to pay attention to the listing, his pricing remains constant.

http://www.webgraphicsengineering.com/G ... s=Corundum

 

[FrekeChild]

So, you won't call and ask for pricing?

Published prices means both sides of the negotiating process had to happen in the seller's mind.
Price it too high, nobody responds.
Price it too low, make unacceptable profit.

Pricing of these goods is very mysterious and complex.
Published prices help the shopper compare.
Yes yes yes, I know ever stone is unique, blah blah blah.
But at least a little data feels better than no data.
A little knowledge is better than total ignorance.

I will not buy if I don't feel the price is fair.
I'm not a just trust the vendor kind of guy for whatever price they reveal after sizing me up.
Sorry.
I want pricing before I'll make a move.

I've spent a small fortune on diamonds recently.
All had published prices.

I hope you stop comparing colored stones to diamonds soon. Diamonds are a dime a dozen. Put in a few specs into any diamond search engines and you'll pull up at LEAST a half a dozen. Less if the specs are crazy (D, 5cts, IF, Ideal) obviously. No two colored stones are going to be exactly alike. If you enjoy limiting your options, then fine. Thats your boat to float.

Personally, I would never think of Richard Wise as being someone to "size up" the buyer. I have had limited experience with him, but in exploring his site, reading things he had written, and what I've seen of him on various social websites, I have nothing but respect for the man. I can't tell you how many cutters/vendors I have harassed with a simple "I want this ____. Tell me how hard it will be to find it/how much it will cost me." And even though I'm a semi-ignorant gem collector aka a young girl, they have all been incredibly kind and courteous and I have NEVER felt taken advantage of.

Honestly, I've been surprised before by how much more reasonably priced things were than I thought they would be.

I just think that is incredibly limiting Kenny. I'm glad you don't care if you don't find "the stone" because of it, but really...you can do it with diamonds, but colored stones aren't as easy to find. So I'd really just stop comparing diamonds to colored stones. Buying them is nothing alike except that they are all gemstones. Thats it. You can't just name a few specs and order up a gemstone. Well you can, but odds are, it's not going to be an excellent specimen and its certainly not going to be exactly what you'd want if you educated yourself. (This is the general "you" not specific to you, Kenny)

Off soapbox.