Burma Blues at NSC

[kenny]

i don't care where a stone comes from.....but to insist that richard conduct his business as other online businesses blows my mind....

Insist?
Huh?

Why do people twist and distort things on the Internet?

I shared my opinion and my experience.

 

[klewis]

i don't care where a stone comes from.....but to insist that richard conduct his business as other online businesses blows my mind....

Insist?
Huh?

Why do people twist and distort things on the Internet?

I shared my opinion and my experience.

Calling Richard's prices "secret" when they are not is also a distortion of the facts. I guess we all do it a bit.

 

[kenny]

Good point Klewis.
My apologies to Mr. Wise for the term secret pricing.
I should have dubbed it "Call-for-price" pricing, and just addressed how I'm put off by that.

 

[arjunajane]

I have remained largely just as a reader on this thread, but after the last page I really must say this: as well as a concerted effort to present true to life photos (as much as is possible) and un-inflated descriptions, customer service and the way a vendor treats and interacts with their clients (or potential clients) is also an important part of my purchase decisions. Richard, photography and pricing and who those are serving aside; attacks and taking the mickey out of any buyer publicly, well I cant understand how that is supposed to serve your business. If this is the kind of behaviour that bodes well with your "high roller" clients, I could personally live happily without being considered part of that group.

 

[kenny]

I have remained largely just as a reader on this thread, but after the last page I really must say this: as well as a concerted effort to present true to life photos (as much as is possible) and un-inflated descriptions, customer service and the way a vendor treats and interacts with their clients (or potential clients) is also an important part of my purchase decisions. Richard, photography and pricing and who those are serving aside; attacks and taking the mickey out of any buyer publicly, well I cant understand how that is supposed to serve your business. If this is the kind of behaviour that bodes well with your "high roller" clients, I could personally live happily without being considered part of that group.

Arjunajane, thanks for teaching me a phrase new to me.

 

[arjunajane]

ha ha you're welcome Kenny-sometimes I forget many folks may not be familiar with my slang And fwiw, as some others have said I do not view you in that light either. In my time on PS I have seen many vendors given honest feedback and sometimes even dressings down (whether called for or not) by consumers. Bar maybe one seller who spends their time on RT I have always seen these discussions unfold in earnesty and without degenerating into personal commentaries/mud slinging, with the vendors for the majority part being grateful for the insight into the consumers thought process-which is what I do believe you were attempting to achieve here.

 

[chrono]

I have remained largely just as a reader on this thread, but after the last page I really must say this: as well as a concerted effort to present true to life photos (as much as is possible) and un-inflated descriptions, customer service and the way a vendor treats and interacts with their clients (or potential clients) is also an important part of my purchase decisions. Richard, photography and pricing and who those are serving aside; attacks and taking the mickey out of any buyer publicly, well I cant understand how that is supposed to serve your business. If this is the kind of behaviour that bodes well with your "high roller" clients, I could personally live happily without being considered part of that group.

AJ
I cannot agree with you more; I saw the explosion of comments on this thread last night and didn’t know what else to write. No one is perfect (and I, too, am far from it), but I do appreciate the honest opinions and comments from Kenny (and others) and read them as being calmly stated with the intention of merely suggestions to provide some insight to the vendor.

 

[Lovinggems]

Both sides were guilty of making personal attacks, although some were more subtle than others ( I reread the whole thread last night). Why not just let this thread die and start over?

 

[TravelingGal]

Both sides were guilty of making personal attacks, although some were more subtle than others ( I reread the whole thread last night). Why not just let this thread die and start over?

Agree. I don't get it when people poke poke poke poke poke, then pull back and exclaim, "Whaaa? Who me? "

 

[arjunajane]

chrono,cheers. And LG I agree.

 

[PrecisionGem]

AJ, I met a guy named Mick a few years ago in Tucson who is from Australia. He cuts opal, and we ended up trading stones, as I had been wanting an opal. Anyways, he was full of these cute slang sayings from Australia, I just wish I would have written them all down. Maybe you could give us a few.

I did learn that the best polish on an opal is done on kangaroo skin leather.

 

[T L]

I will just say/clarify that questioning how a vendor does things to me, is not a personal attack, in particular if no nasty words are thrown back and forth. I am not saying that no nasty words were thrown back and forth in this thread, but I do feel as consumers, we have the right to question a vendor about a policy, require clarification, if they come on this board and state policy, or provide insight on how they run their business. If they refuse to give that clarification, or do not want to respond, that's their right as well. I personally don't ever want anyone to be afraid to question how a vendor does something, and not just Richard Wise, but any vendor.

I remember a vendor who charged a huge amount for gems and stated it was because he included gemological equipment with the purchase. Many members advised that he shouldn't do that, and instead, lower his prices. I thought this was good feedback, and not a character attack at all. This is akin to the feedback I think some people have provided in this thread. Many vendors are humble enough to take the feedback and use it, or say "thank you" and that's it, done with, over. If they provide further clarification, that's fine too. Richard has done the latter.

I do remember a particularly nasty thread where many people were very angry with one particular vendor in another subforum. I mean it was to the point that I thought they were going to get their virtual stones out and pummel the vendor to death. I will say that is wrong, but I don't think this particular thread has ever gotten to that level. If it had, this thread would have been locked down. As for my "groupie" comment, I do apologize for that, In hindsight, I made an offensive statement, and again, I apologize.

 

[Lady_Disdain]

Group hug?

Threads sometimes get out of hand.

 

[kenny]

Group hug indeed.
I apologize if I came across as antagonistic.
This is not my intention.
I'm just one of those say-what-you-think kind of guys and I thought my experience with this project would be useful.
Posting personal shopping experiences, however they turn out, is part of PS.

I learned a lot from this thread, and am fine if it drops.

 

[LD]

"Taking the mickey out of me" has also been known as "extracting the Michael"! I love that phrase and it's commonly used in the UK too!

 

[elmo]

First let me say thanks for the spirited discussion of online pricing. I continue to believe that a majority of clients looking for fine gemstones do not want their business all over the internet, so, for the present, my policy continues as before. I am more than pleased to speak with anyone about any stone, either by email or phone

Kenny, you play piano don't you? What percentage of the US retailers of tier-1 pianos (Bosendorfer, Fazioli, Bechstein, etc.) post their pricing and inventory on the internet transparently? Maybe one or two, but I've never run across anyone who does . It's how business is normally done. What to do? Visit sellers, play, talk shop and pricing. Appreciate the nuances of individual instruments, eventually fall in love. Finding the right extra-fine sapphire isn't so much different than finding the right high-end piano.

 

[Laila619]

Both sides were guilty of making personal attacks, although some were more subtle than others ( I reread the whole thread last night). Why not just let this thread die and start over?

Agree. I don't get it when people poke poke poke poke poke, then pull back and exclaim, "Whaaa? Who me? "

Agreed.

Kenny, I think you were being rude, personally. I've never seen anyone else on PS happily tell a vendor exactly why they didn't buy with them and announce to them that they "lost" a $50k sale. Everyone eventually chooses one vendor over all the others, and by default the others lose the sale. No need to rub it in their face. Seems more personal than anything else, since you didn't feel the need to explain to any other vendor why you didn't go with them. There are many sellers who don't publish prices, not just one. It is what it is.

 

[kenny]

You are right elmo.
Pianos are also also marketed with mysterious pricing.
Piano customers have complained about this for a long time.
But, their legitimate complaints HAVE been answered...

Enter The Piano Book, by Larry Fine: http://www.pianobook.com/
It is THE essential first step before buying a new or used piano.

Piano dealers have benefited fom customer ignorance of both the instrument itself and its price.
In fact, in Fine's book he states that the exact same model of piano, on the same day, in the same showroom can sell for two difference prices, one price twice the other.
It all depends on the customer.
Knowledge is power.

He also includes a price list for all new pianos, and suggested discount rates for various brands to shoot for during negotiations.
This has angered piano dealers.
They preferred when prices were only revealed by them.

I will not buy under such circumstances (from any vendor of pianos or diamonds) and I believe I have a right to say so.
I do not expect the industry to change for me.
I am just one person voicing one opinion, which I believe is shared by many who are too nice to speak up.
As to Wise...he's the only vendor who posted in the thread about unpublished prices and I think he was rude to me, especially being a vendor, especially being on the Internet.

 

[movie zombie]

As to Wise...he's the only vendor who posted in the thread about unpublished prices and I think he was rude to me, especially being a vendor, especially being on the Internet.

i remember gene chiming in....about unpublished prices.

i don't care who was first, last, or inbetween re the rude issue: its time to move on.

MoZo

 

[kenny]

TIme to move on. Agreed!

 

[ChunkyCushionLover]

TIme to move on. Agreed!

Kenny I see this point from both sides.

Supporting Your Opinion

In colored stones it is very hard to find identical comparables, add to this my general impression that due to the individual hand selection of stones, time and effort, and low volume sales in colored stones, the margins are going to be higher than in the high volume ultra competitive colorless diamond market. The margins are also somewhat justified, a dealer may have to sit on a stone for several years and tie up their capital before they can sell it.

Hidden pricing protects these margins(no comparables means the vendor has more flexibility to name their price) which helps vendors and hurts the consumer, I beleive it is part of the reason why for most high end items things are done this way. In luxury goods the vendor often sets the price at what the buyer is willing to pay or what the buyer wants to pay. Sometimes buyers think if something costs more it is of higher quality especially if the amount paid is inconsequential to them.

Supporting Richard Wise

Despite the lack of comparables calling a few dealers and brokers and getting prices from them as well information on available stones allows a consumer to make just as informed decision with or without hidden prices. Many branded diamonds which are unique don't have prices but it takes a couple of minutes to call up and find out how much.

Richard's intended clients aren't as price sensitive as most are in this forum for the pieces that don't have prices. By not listing the price only more serious shoppers will enquire, he is certainly not the cheapest but many of his stones are of very fine quality and his intended clients appreciate this quality and are willing to pay the premium for it. The personalized service Richard must give to those inquiring clients is at a much higher level than what is given by your average internet retailer and thus the necessity to focus on only the most serious shoppers is paramount.

I also suspect that some of Richard's suppliers do not want their goods displayed on the internet with prices. If the stone(s) were loaned to Richard by memo or are virtual, many suppliers must protect their retailer's margins. That is why in many luxury items the suppliers forbid online advertising of price or set a minnimum price that an item can be advertised for. If they don't do that most high end dealers simply won't carry their products because they know they can have a higher margin on other goods.

Richard donated his time in this thread to explain reasons why he runs his business in conformity with common practices in the high end luxury goods arena. I am not surprised by his frustration at many posters who just won't accept his explanation for the way he does business. While I don't think his practices benefit me(quite to the contrary it would make me work harder to get comparables) I can appreciate that it is his carefully considered course of action. If his focus would become more on less rare, lower end, higher volume internet sales than I suspect more prices would be listed.

I find playing the "rudeness" card by anyone on PS counterproductive, and really who are we kidding, from one "rude and arrogant guy" to another, people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones .

Would you rather he be deterred from participating in this forum anymore? Then we lose his insight and expertise in the colored gem world. I hope that the negative response he received from this thread doesn't deter him from continuing to participate on PS. I don't think any of the tradesmembers are completely altruistic in their participation in these forums, so remove the benefits they may receive and they will soon disappear.

Regards,
CCL

 

[kenny]

Good post CCL.

 

[jleb]

You can do a little trick in photo shop with the picture of the stone. Save it to your hard drive and pull it up. Then use the ruler tool to draw a line from the culet to the first facet. The info pane will show you the angle. It looks like that bottom one is in the 20 degree range.
That's way under the 34.2 degree critical angle ( and the cutting that needs 2 degrees above that).

That's how you can check for sure ahead of time.