Burma Blues at NSC

[Harriet]

Arcadian,
We have one more day. Say the word and I'll meet you there. The next biggie is not until October.

 

[klewis]

Klewis,
Your English is clear to me.

I'm pleased it is - thanks Harriet

 

[soberguy]

Mr. Richard Wise:

I am having a difficult time wording this, and hope it will not offend anyone I think there is a LARGE difference between spending 350,000.00 on a certified unheated Kashmir sapphire, and a 120.00 tourmaline So it is difficult for me to read this with anything more than a grain of salt. I have found you to be patient, thoughtful, and informative in both of our conversations. I would not call myself a "groupie", but if I had a decent amount of money to spend on a stone, I would most certainly visit you. I honestly think your stones are of a caliber that is prohibitive to most of this board. I personally would love to have prices listed so I don't embarass myself asking lol. As the saying goes, "if you must ask, you cannot afford it" lol! I will say, that in every high end jeweler I have visited they have been extremely polite, kind, and fun, and I am most certain you would be too!

I have often thought that we should perhaps start a new forum. "Colored Stones" is just too broad for me. Posting a thread describing a GRS certified unheated Kashmir sapphire next to one describing a $15.00 USD peridot seems completely absurd. (or a fantastic certified natural fancy green diamond ). Anyone else agree? Just a thought.

 

[Arcadian]

Arcadian,
We have one more day. Say the word and I'll meet you there. The next biggie is not until October.

Harriet, it sounds so tempting ! Considering I'm working until 6am, ( ) its probably best for me to hold off until October. Where is the one in October? I haven't been able to find dates or anything.

-A

 

[LD]

Mr. Richard Wise:

I am having a difficult time wording this, and hope it will not offend anyone I think there is a LARGE difference between spending 350,000.00 on a certified unheated Kashmir sapphire, and a 120.00 tourmaline So it is difficult for me to read this with anything more than a grain of salt. I have found you to be patient, thoughtful, and informative in both of our conversations. I would not call myself a "groupie", but if I had a decent amount of money to spend on a stone, I would most certainly visit you. I honestly think your stones are of a caliber that is prohibitive to most of this board. I personally would love to have prices listed so I don't embarass myself asking lol. As the saying goes, "if you must ask, you cannot afford it" lol! I will say, that in every high end jeweler I have visited they have been extremely polite, kind, and fun, and I am most certain you would be too!

I have often thought that we should perhaps start a new forum. "Colored Stones" is just too broad for me. Posting a thread describing a GRS certified unheated Kashmir sapphire next to one describing a $15.00 USD peridot seems completely absurd. (or a fantastic certified natural fancy green diamond ). Anyone else agree? Just a thought.

No offence taken at anything you've written SG! Just a few comments and different viewpoints ..........

I don't agree with this statement "if you must ask ......" . Not everybody with money chucks it away without thinking about it. I have a few friends who are lucky enough to be millionaires. They are also the meanest people I have ever met with their money! Yes, that's a generalisation but surprisingly true! For example, a well known drummer with a rock group, haggles until he becomes offensive (even though he's a very mild mannered individual)!

As to the last highlighted part - I'm not elitist. I like to see top end stones (and the emergence of Kenny in the CS forum has given us some wonderful eye candy recently) and I also like to see bargains! For me, the range gives a much better understanding of the market, trends, pricing etc and is far more interesting than "look what I bought for $0000000000000" - add your own zeros!

General comments:

1. I don't expect Vendors to come on here and educate. That's not what the forum is about (or is expected). There are other forums for that. However, those that do are incredibly generous with their time and I love to hear their thoughts and explanations. Dana and Michael E are two that I find exceptionally informative. What I, personally, like is when Vendors treat you as an equal and explain rather than saying "go away, do your homework and then we'll talk" or "you're wrong".

2. I agree with TL. In the past if you criticised certain Vendors the chances are you would have been rubbished and lambasted. Thankfully, that appears to be on the wane. It's unhealthy. Every Vendor has less than desirable products. I would much prefer that this was recognised and accepted.

3. I agree with Michael E that contacting a Vendor if interested in a gem is of great importance (and I've personally contacted nearly all the "regulars" we have on here at some point). However, going to see the gem isn't always possible as this Board stretches worldwide. Therefore, for us where travel isn't possible, we have to rely on images and Vendor's narratives. Some Vendors are therefore easier to work with than others. For example, Gene's photographs (to my eye) are superb at replicating the real gem. Dana is honest and thoughtful and will even put you off a gem if he thinks it may not be right for you. What most of our Vendors have in common is that you can compare easily. With pricing not listed on a website you can't. Even high end dealers list prices and again, apologies if I offend anybody, but it smacks of elitism not to be upfront about pricing.

4. What on earth is the problem with buying from Ebay? I can't tell you how many negative comments I see about Ebay stones!!! Yes, it's a minefield. Yes, it's easy to be duped. However, there ARE honest dealers on Ebay. There ARE great deals to be had (less now unfortunately than a few years ago). AND THIS BIT IS GOING TO DEFINITELY GET ME LAMBASTED but there ARE stones that would replicate what you would find from our normal Vendors on here for much less money. The problem with buying from Ebay is that you have to know what you're buying and accept that in some cases you won't get what you've paid for BUT there are always routes to get your money back. Some buyers don't have the confidence and prefer to use the "eye" of reputable, well known Vendors. There's no problem with that at all and it's totally understandable but that will often come at a price - does it mean the gem is any better? Not in all cases.

 

[T L]

I have often thought that we should perhaps start a new forum. "Colored Stones" is just too broad for me. Posting a thread describing a GRS certified unheated Kashmir sapphire next to one describing a $15.00 USD peridot seems completely absurd. (or a fantastic certified natural fancy green diamond ). Anyone else agree? Just a thought.

Pricescope is really a diamond site and is mostly about diamond education from what people have told me and from what I see (one of the mods can correct me if I'm wrong). I think Colored Stones was mostly started as a nice option for people that rather talk about something else besides diamonds. However what I am seeing is that CS is becoming it's own animal, almost akin to other gemological sites that do focus on gems other than diamonds. Many PS'ers never step foot in here, or even care about Colored Stones, but the ones that do find a wealth of information. I love Colored Stones and I'm in this section 99% of the time because truth be told, I could care less about white diamonds. However, since CS has become it's own animal, I do agree it has become a bit too broad. I would hope it would be expanded into subforums, like colored diamonds, colored gems, treatments, etc. . . but that's not my decision to make, although I do think it would coax some very good scientific minds over here.

 

[Sagebrush]

Kenny, et al,

First let me say thanks for the spirited discussion of online pricing. I continue to believe that a majority of clients looking for fine gemstones do not want their business all over the internet, so, for the present, my policy continues as before. I am more than pleased to speak with anyone about any stone, either by email or phone, I even have an 800 number.

Kenny, I had never heard of you until your post the other day criticizing the way I do business. So I looked you up and read a few posts. You obviously consider yourself a high roller. So let me break this to you gently: you are playing in the bush leagues. Most of the best stones in the world are not posted on the internet, not pictures, not prices, not at all. The gem business is steeped in tradition and part of that tradition is a thing called "burning the stone." I wrote a blog on this some time ago and as Pricescope does not allow links to information, I will post it in its entirety.


GemWise

by Richard W. Wise

© 2008

“I am showing you this in absolute confidence, you understand Mr. Wise and I am asking you please not to mention this stone to anyone”.

So begins a conversation not unlike many similar conversations I have had over the past few years with dealers who specialize in ultra-rare and very high priced gemstones. The place, Las Vegas 08, the gem an extraordinary, ultra-rare fancy color diamond, the price, somewhere north of 10 million dollars.

Ultra-high-end gemstones exist, are bought and sold in their own world or rather in two contradictory worlds. Remember the Star Trek episode. The Enterprise discovers a new universe that is the flip side of our own, its just the same only everything is backwards. Sound familiar? (pictured above 6.04 carat Fancy vivid blue, internally flawless. Sold: Sotheby's Hong Kong, U.S. $7,981,835.00 world record: 1.3 Million per carat)

Burning the Stone; Mum’s the Word:

Then there is the universe of the old-line, high end dealers where discretion is the watch word. Picture richly paneled walls, men in conservative well cut suits floating down silent hallways. The reality may be the rabbit-warren at 580 5th Avenue but, hey, lets maintain the illusion.

“At all costs they avoid burning the stone”, says a prominent dealer, “If the price, even the fact of the stone’s existence becomes too public, some buyers will shy away”. This is known in the trade as burning.

This dealer cites the example of the 76.45 carat Archduke Diamond named for the Austrian Arch Duke Joseph August. Molina a high-end Phoenix Jeweler, made a very public show of owning the stone even allowing singer Celine Dion to wear the Archduke on a TV special. In the dealer's world, this is very bad form. One dealer who was interested in the stone for a client declined to show it once he found out about all the hype surrounding the gem. “Our clients wouldn’t be interested.” The stone had been burned.


So Kenny, there you are. If you ever have the opportunity to enter this world, I suggest that arrogantly demanding that they change their way of doing business to suit you, won't get you past the receptionist.

Best of luck,

 

[kenny]

Kenny, et al,

First let me say thanks for the spirited discussion of online pricing. I continue to believe that a majority of clients looking for fine gemstones do not want their business all over the internet, so, for the present, my policy continues as before. I am more than pleased to speak with anyone about any stone, either by email or phone, I even have an 800 number.

Kenny, I had never heard of you until your post the other day criticizing the way I do business. So I looked you up and read a few posts. You obviously consider yourself a high roller. So let me break this to you gently: you are playing in the bush leagues. Most of the best stones in the world are not posted on the internet, not pictures, not prices, not at all. The gem business is steeped in tradition and part of that tradition is a thing called "burning the stone." I wrote a blog on this some time ago and as Pricescope does not allow links to information, I will post it in its entirety.


GemWise

by Richard W. Wise

© 2008

“I am showing you this in absolute confidence, you understand Mr. Wise and I am asking you please not to mention this stone to anyone”.

So begins a conversation not unlike many similar conversations I have had over the past few years with dealers who specialize in ultra-rare and very high priced gemstones. The place, Las Vegas 08, the gem an extraordinary, ultra-rare fancy color diamond, the price, somewhere north of 10 million dollars.

Ultra-high-end gemstones exist, are bought and sold in their own world or rather in two contradictory worlds. Remember the Star Trek episode. The Enterprise discovers a new universe that is the flip side of our own, its just the same only everything is backwards. Sound familiar? (pictured above 6.04 carat Fancy vivid blue, internally flawless. Sold: Sotheby's Hong Kong, U.S. $7,981,835.00 world record: 1.3 Million per carat)

Burning the Stone; Mum’s the Word:

Then there is the universe of the old-line, high end dealers where discretion is the watch word. Picture richly paneled walls, men in conservative well cut suits floating down silent hallways. The reality may be the rabbit-warren at 580 5th Avenue but, hey, lets maintain the illusion.

“At all costs they avoid burning the stone”, says a prominent dealer, “If the price, even the fact of the stone’s existence becomes too public, some buyers will shy away”. This is known in the trade as burning.

This dealer cites the example of the 76.45 carat Archduke Diamond named for the Austrian Arch Duke Joseph August. Molina a high-end Phoenix Jeweler, made a very public show of owning the stone even allowing singer Celine Dion to wear the Archduke on a TV special. In the dealer's world, this is very bad form. One dealer who was interested in the stone for a client declined to show it once he found out about all the hype surrounding the gem. “Our clients wouldn’t be interested.” The stone had been burned.


So Kenny, there you are. If you ever have the opportunity to enter this world, I suggest that arrogantly demanding that they change their way of doing business to suit you, won't get you past the receptionist.

Best of luck,

No problem Mr. Wise.
I won't bother correcting your post; people can read and form their own opinions.

I sincerely started this thread withe the desire to learn and to buy a nice sapphire.
After learning what I learned I decided to spend my budget on fancy colored diamonds at Leibish & Co.

Best of luck.

 

[T L]

Richard,
Are you saying that some of your gems that you refuse to publish internet prices, are as world class as a large fancy colored diamond? I do agree that I also think some rare fancy colored diamonds do exist in a world of their own, since you are using them as an example. The only other gem I can think of that can compare outside the super rare fancy colored diamond world are probably exceptionately fine and large Burmese rubies. Perhaps some ultra large rare Columbian emeralds, Kashmir sapphire or a Paraiba tourmaline might get some notice too. Please correct me again if I'm wrong.

Kenny,
I have heard, although cannot confirm, that Leibish sells to Graff, HW, and other high end jewelers with a huge amount of capital. I'm sure they have some exceptional world class stones (actually I have seen them on their site), and I admire Itzik's humility. He is kind to people that can spend $200 or $2,000,000. He also has an ebay store.

 

[kenny]

Thanks TL.

Leibish & Co. and Itzik have been a class act in this and previous transactions even before knowing that I was an arrogant, demanding high roller who uses the Internet to take over the world.

BTW, have you read my latest book in which I invented a new system of grading of gem dealers?
VISA and AmEx accepted.

 

[Sagebrush]

TL,

I thought I was pretty clear. Most of the dealers who buy and sell the best of the best do not post pictures or prices on the internet. In fact, often when I am searching for something particularly rare and fine I might be sent images, but I must promise not to send those images to anyone of publish them on the internet. You read the quote at the beginning of the blog post: "Burning the stone" is a real concern. The internet is the brave new world, not the whole world.

A couple of points about images: You tell me I should get a better photographer. Most of the images on my site are taken by either Jeff Scovil or Robert Weldon. That is not a "claim" that is a fact. Weldon does most of GIA's work, you see him in G&G. Scovil has done a majority of the covers for Mineralogical Record, Colored Stone and you see his photos published everywhere. They are top professionals, but the images are often inaccurate.

You say that you like Gene Flanagan's images, but you carefully avoid acknowledging Gene's own statements that images are misleading and inaccurate. In fact, just about every professional on this forum has said the same thing at one time or another, but you seem deaf to the facts. Obviously, once you acknowledge what everyone knows to be true you would have a hard time justifying your minute critiques of images posted on the forum. If a professional appraiser attempted to appraise a gem or jewelry item by only looking at images, he would be called unprofessional. Since I have no idea who you are, I will assume you are not a professional, but since you do know that images are inaccurate, you are acting irresponsibly and giving bad advice and what's more, you know it.

 

[Ella]

I have often thought that we should perhaps start a new forum. "Colored Stones" is just too broad for me. Posting a thread describing a GRS certified unheated Kashmir sapphire next to one describing a $15.00 USD peridot seems completely absurd. (or a fantastic certified natural fancy green diamond ). Anyone else agree? Just a thought.

Pricescope is really a diamond site and is mostly about diamond education from what people have told me and from what I see (one of the mods can correct me if I'm wrong). I think Colored Stones was mostly started as a nice option for people that rather talk about something else besides diamonds. However what I am seeing is that CS is becoming it's own animal, almost akin to other gemological sites that do focus on gems other than diamonds. Many PS'ers never step foot in here, or even care about Colored Stones, but the ones that do find a wealth of information. I love Colored Stones and I'm in this section 99% of the time because truth be told, I could care less about white diamonds. However, since CS has become it's own animal, I do agree it has become a bit too broad. I would hope it would be expanded into subforums, like colored diamonds, colored gems, treatments, etc. . . but that's not my decision to make, although I do think it would coax some very good scientific minds over here.

We have been and are still considering eventually making some subforums for colored stones. However the traffic needs to be high before we do so. I also welcome suggestions for subforums, although there are no guarantees that we will be splitting it in the near future.

Please feel free to post in the "suggestions" forum with ideas and we will take them into consideration.

Also worthy of mentioning is that the more we split the forums the lower the traffic seems on each forum. Hence why we hesitate to split too frequently.

 

[Harriet]

Arcadian,
The next show is in Denver.

 

[LD]

Kenny, et al,

First let me say thanks for the spirited discussion of online pricing. I continue to believe that a majority of clients looking for fine gemstones do not want their business all over the internet, so, for the present, my policy continues as before. I am more than pleased to speak with anyone about any stone, either by email or phone, I even have an 800 number.

Kenny, I had never heard of you until your post the other day criticizing the way I do business. So I looked you up and read a few posts. You obviously consider yourself a high roller. So let me break this to you gently: you are playing in the bush leagues. Most of the best stones in the world are not posted on the internet, not pictures, not prices, not at all. The gem business is steeped in tradition and part of that tradition is a thing called "burning the stone." I wrote a blog on this some time ago and as Pricescope does not allow links to information, I will post it in its entirety.

Why ask for opinions if you had a closed mind to this? Actually, it's not "a majority of clients ...... not want their business all over the internet" because the internet is an anonymous place. Nobody would know who bought a stone unless you published it on your website or they told others! It's only the price that would be on the internet and to be honest this is more of you not wanting your business all over the internet.

As for your harsh words to Kenny? Charming. The least said about this the better.

TL shouldn't give advice? Sorry but this is an internet forum where we discuss, exchange views and offer opinions on gemstones. She should continue for as long as she wants as many people here love to read her posts and she freely exchanges her knowledge and helps. She will acknowledge that she has bias for some stones and hues and also that she doesn't get it right all of the time - but who does? Nobody. Her humility and willingness to accept others opinions and learn from other's experiences is exceptional.

As for images are never accurate? Not true. Some are, some aren't. Gene's photos ARE accurate based on my experience of buying gemstones from him. I believe Gene (like others) struggle to replicate gemstones accurately. However his suggestion was so that we could compare and have a baseline from which to evaluate gems from various sellers - an excellent idea. Far better than quoting from one's own articles/books/blogs.

At the end of the day, this is a worldwide internet forum where the only tools we have to judge are photos, videos, vendors descriptions and they way vendors conduct themselves. This is a great place to learn and share experience and so whether you like it or not, I'm pretty sure the regular posters will continue to help others and offer help when it's asked for.

 

[klewis]

Why ask for opinions if you had a closed mind to this? Actually, it's not "a majority of clients ...... not want their business all over the internet" because the internet is an anonymous place. Nobody would know who bought a stone unless you published it on your website or they told others! It's only the price that would be on the internet and to be honest this is more of you not wanting your business all over the internet.

LD- I could be wrong here, but my understanding of the "Burning the Stone" blog quote was that it was not only that the buyer should be anonymous but that the stones existence should be kept under wraps as well.

 

[LD]

Why ask for opinions if you had a closed mind to this? Actually, it's not "a majority of clients ...... not want their business all over the internet" because the internet is an anonymous place. Nobody would know who bought a stone unless you published it on your website or they told others! It's only the price that would be on the internet and to be honest this is more of you not wanting your business all over the internet.

LD- I could be wrong here, but my understanding of the "Burning the Stone" blog quote was that it was not only that the buyer should be anonymous but that the stones existence should be kept under wraps as well.

I understand but we're not talking about gems that are never on the internet. These are gems that are already on the internet and for sale. There's little correlation.

By the way, I think your grasp of the English language is superb and am genuinely surprised to find out it's not!

 

[TravelingGal]

Richard, if you really knew Kenny, you'd know he doesn't play in bush.

*ducking*

Seriously though, is this all necessary? Now we're comparing apples to oranges to carrots to artichoke. No one is concerned about stones in *that* league. Some people want prices posted. Great. Go buy from those vendors. Other people don't care. Good for them too. Everyone is out for value. Everyone is out to make a buck. Thank goodness for choices.

As for humility...personally, I kind of think it's been lacking from ALL sides. And how is ANY stone from ANY league supposed to sparkle with all this mudslinging? Ultrasonic, people.

 

[klewis]

By the way, I think your grasp of the English language is superb and am genuinely surprised to find out it's not!

Thanks LD - I was brung up right but it's my sentence structure that is my downfall and I am aware it can cause confusion to some.

 

[kenny]

By the way, I think your grasp of the English language is superb and am genuinely surprised to find out it's not!

Thanks LD - I was brung up right but it's my sentence structure that is my downfall and I am aware it can cause confusion to some.

Huh?
What do you mean?
I have no idea what you are talking about.


Sorry, just being silly.

 

[kenny]

If I was a vendor and I lost a $50K customer (or frankly a $50 customer) to my competitor I'd want to learn why.
(Yes fancy colored diamonds DO compete with high end non-diamond gems for the same dollars - they did in my case.)

This is 2010 and this is the Internet.
People just click out of a website and . . . POOF . . . they are gone forever and you'll never know why.

I'd appreciate learning why I lost even one legit customer.
That doesn't mean I'd change my whole business, or abandon long-time traditions, to accommodate one person, but hey, its a valid data point.
I'd surely say, "Thanks for the feedback", especially if the world was watching.

I'm not sure why I'm seen as an arrogant controlling villain for offering my honest opinion and my true story.
I think it is a pertinent story, and may be useful to these vendors.
Still, it is just one opinion, well-articulated perhaps, but still just one opinion.

I have no agenda, except purdy shiny things.

Yes, I've learned colored gems are marketed differently from diamonds.
Got it.
But if it makes you feel better beat me over the head with it a few more times.

I'm just giving feedback on one case where a diamond guy wandered into the colored gem waters and wandered right back out.
Too bad.
I wanted a nice blue sapphire, and will probably never pursue one again.
No blame, no sides, no bad guys, just the facts.

 

[Nashville]

For the record Kenny, you don't come off as an arrogant wannabe high-roller. There's nothing wrong with making your budget known or being proud of what you can purchase. I've learned vicariously through your research and purchases, this thread in particular.

 

[Largosmom]

I hope you will go back after a good sapphire down the road...they are also worth it!

 

[Arcadian]

Arcadian,
The next show is in Denver.

Thanks Harriet.

-A

 

[Harriet]

Arcadian,
Are we on?

TGal,
Ditto. This place is littered with rotting horses.

 

[PrecisionGem]

I've learned about having stones "burned" the hard way. Once I started posting prices on the website, my sales to jewelers dried up. If I post a stone with a price, it's almost impossible for me to sell it to someone in the trade. I've had people turn down a stone because it was posted on the site. Now we all know I'm not selling $50,000 stones, my average stone is around $300-$400, but once posted it's "burned" to some.

I do cut stones that never get posted that are offered to members of the trade and customers who have requested one. These I never post prices, and rarely even pictures after the sale.

As far as pictures go, they should only be used as a general guide. You MUST see the stone in person. While it's fun to comment on stones from pictures that members here have purchased, or are contemplating purchasing, all you can really comment on is the picture, not the actual stone. I use two monitors at work, and a 27" Apple monitor in the gem shop, and my pictures look much different on each screen. What you can see from a picture, if it's shot straight on, is how windowed the stone is, if the stone has good symmetry and the overall make of the stone. The color, well you get a general idea.

Often I see 2 or 3 or 4 stones posted, from different vendors, and the poster is asking for opinions on which one is better. I don't think in most cases it's possible to make a judgement on color like this. Dispersion and sparkle are also very difficult to discern from a photo.

A good return policy is the best way to purchase online.

 

[Arcadian]

Harriet, Colorado? thats a heck of a lot farther than Springfield!! I can't put it in stone but let me look at the flight situation and let you know.


ok so back to the real meat of some of this thread.

Look, there's going to be people out there that will not post prices of stones, Richard isn't the only one. I've bought from Swala, as have some in this thread, but they do have gems you have to request the price on. AJS is another that I'm sure MANY have purchased from, but they also do not show every single price either. They do it for reasons that are they're own, and that are best for their particular business.

Also this is coming from someone who's not a fangirl for Richard by any stretch; He put up with some accusations in this thread that are just weird as all get out. I think he's done his best to answer the questions put to him but seriously, some of y'all....

.......all Imma say is this; don't fake the funk, thats not a good look.

I DO rely on the eye of a gemstone seller, we all do, otherwise we wouldn't be purchasing the way we do, and all the purchases would be in person. I just purchased a stone from AJS, but prior to my purchase I asked about two stones in particular, one about a hundred dollars more than the other.

They were very honest in what they told me (basically told me the more expensive one WAS in fact darker than the picture) So you see, had I relied JUST on the picture I wouldn't have known and I would have gotten the stone and would have been unhappy.

Richard provides a service, as many gem sellers do. Its up to the consumer to decide if the service he's offering is of real value to them. For some its not, that means you should go to someone else, for others, his advice and knowledge are an asset.

On the real, if you don't like what he's selling, just don't buy, simple. Go to someone that you're comfortable with that have the type of policies you want. Do your due diligence and do whats best FOR YOU. His store dosen't cater to everybody, but no one store does.

And as much as I don't want to say it, that even goes for NSC. I think they're a big pile of brown stuff for the whole picture thing but they do still have something to offer to those that are willing to purchase their products. So be it, you know? I won't buy from them but they aren't exactly missing my dollars anyway.

This website was created to discuss and to share. Which I think is great. And I do enjoy sharing pictures of the stones I buy, most of us are in that boat. There's plenty that have been said about ebay stones but you know what? So? I will get what I like where I can, no apologies. There will always be those that feel that ebay is beneath them. Hell that means more for me!

But I will be the first to say that if I spent 30 or even 50G on a stone, I would not want y'all to know that because in my world thats nobody's business but mine, my husband, the seller, the bank and the Lord.

and btw, Kenny I'm not putting you on blast because at the end of the day you have to do whats best for you, we all do. That just means we all should shop at places that suit our buying habits and whatever level of transparency we want to have. But I swear to God its like been lets gang up on Richard when there are many more vendors out there that also will not post prices on their high end stones.

In closing let me add this; NOTHING on the internet is anonymous, thats me telling you from an IT perspective. Any site you go to, you leave a trail of where you've been. This is how you end up with spam folks. Its not just about who you gave your email to, mkay?


Peacenchiggungreese.

-A

 

[T L]

TL,

I thought I was pretty clear. Most of the dealers who buy and sell the best of the best do not post pictures or prices on the internet. In fact, often when I am searching for something particularly rare and fine I might be sent images, but I must promise not to send those images to anyone of publish them on the internet. You read the quote at the beginning of the blog post: "Burning the stone" is a real concern. The internet is the brave new world, not the whole world.

A couple of points about images: You tell me I should get a better photographer. Most of the images on my site are taken by either Jeff Scovil or Robert Weldon. That is not a "claim" that is a fact. Weldon does most of GIA's work, you see him in G&G. Scovil has done a majority of the covers for Mineralogical Record, Colored Stone and you see his photos published everywhere. They are top professionals, but the images are often inaccurate.

You say that you like Gene Flanagan's images, but you carefully avoid acknowledging Gene's own statements that images are misleading and inaccurate. In fact, just about every professional on this forum has said the same thing at one time or another, but you seem deaf to the facts. Obviously, once you acknowledge what everyone knows to be true you would have a hard time justifying your minute critiques of images posted on the forum. If a professional appraiser attempted to appraise a gem or jewelry item by only looking at images, he would be called unprofessional. Since I have no idea who you are, I will assume you are not a professional, but since you do know that images are inaccurate, you are acting irresponsibly and giving bad advice and what's more, you know it.

I never said I like Gene Flanigan's images, where did that come from? Other people have said that, not necessarily me. BTW, if you feel I'm giving bad advice, fine, but to say I know I'm giving bad advice? That is absurd. You are the one who said you have the best photographers in the world, but when someone says your cc sapphire is gray, you say the image is incorrect. I'm sorry, to me, that doesn't make sense. Honestly Richard, I'm really trying to HELP you as a consumer would try to help any vendor. I feel I'm giving good advice and constructive criticism, but you're taking it as if you are above advice. If you don't like what I have to say, then ignore it. By the way, I disagree with Gene, not all images are misleading and inaccurate, that's why we have a vendor photo comparison sticky thread, and many vendors have improved their photography as a result. Barry Bridgestock is an example of a vendor that takes very accurate photos.

Listen, I know this economy is tough, and if I were a vendor, I would appreciate the feedback. Photography should never ever be underestimated as one of the most important selling tools in the online market. Perhaps you just don't care about the online market as much, but in this economy, I certainly would. Besides, I don't know what you mean by calling me a "professional," but I am a long time consumer of gems and have been collecting for 20 years. Does that count for something?

 

[PrecisionGem]

I didn't say all pictures are misleading or inaccurate. My point was it's difficult to compare images from different sources.

Which of these two Mali garnets has the better color?

Actually they are both the same picture. One is right from the camera, the other is juiced up a bit. I do suspect that some vendors juice up the images, so how can one really compare two stones from different vendors?

 

[T L]

I didn't say all pictures are misleading or inaccurate. My point was it's difficult to compare images from different sources.

Which of these two Mali garnets has the better color?

Actually they are both the same picture. One is right from the camera, the other is juiced up a bit. I do suspect that some vendors juice up the images, so how can one really compare two stones from different vendors?

That's why we have the sticky thread. I think in it's own way, it holds vendors accountable for not juicing up the photo. It's out there for several consumers to see. Yes, some photographers juice up photos, in particular highly paid professional photographers like Tino Hammid are known to do this for magazine articles. The famous alexandrite photo he took was adjusted to make the color change look superb.

By the way Gene, I will say you take beautiful photos (now I said it) . However, beautiful is not the same thing as accurate (not talking about you Gene, but any photographer per se).

 

[movie zombie]

i don't care where a stone comes from.....but to insist that richard conduct his business as other online businesses blows my mind.....he is a store front with a website folks. nothing wrong with an ebay store modality for a business but not everyone wishes to do it.

and not everyone has the time, inclination, and $ to shop ebay and develop a relationship of trust with the ebay vendor. and while a good return policy is a real plus, the $ adds up for those returns. personally, i applaud anyone who has that time, inclination, and $ to shop ebay and utilize whatever education s/he has decided works for him/her.

it is the repeated insistence that richard...and other vendors as well....need/should/must change their business policies to accomodate pricescopers' shopping habits/desires/whims. ed got bullied into going against his return policy because a pricescoper wasn't happy after he'd done a layaway for her for 6-months.......and then made some policy changes that were not necessarily to the benefit of pricescopers.

its a big, wide shopping world out there: buy what you wish from who you wish and definitely vote with your $ but i personally would like to see pricescopers realize that we're not the center of the gem world and that every business has the right to set its own policies..... any pricescoper starting his/her own gem business would do the same.

MoZo

ps its one thing to provide relevant feedback to a vendor.....and another to harp about the changes that should be made in more than one thread, especially after the vendor has stated why the policy is not going to change. doesn't matter if we don't like his stated reason, its his business. how it works for me: if i can't pick up a phone and call an 800 number to get a price and ask questions, i must not have been that interested anyway.