Bristol Palin Interview on Fox News

[LtlFirecracker]

There have been many good points made on this thread. I enjoyed reading the many different prospectives people had, and I do feel like I have learned a lot from other people's experiences, and that what I learn will be useful to me.

Miraclesrule: Thanks for sharing your experiences. I am sure you learned a lot from your children, as you children learned a lot from you. And I also remember you saying you are going to be a Grandmother? Congratulations! I am sure you are going to be a great support for your daughter.

Haven: I really enjoyed reading the prospective from a teacher. I found it very interesting about what you said about meeting the parents. You are right, parents have a big influence on a child's values. In adolescence's, the peer group plays a bigger role, but often, the values the parents teach the child influences their choice in friends. And there have been a lot of posts, but I think it was you who talked about addressing the underlying cause. You are so right about that. There are so many ways to attack a problem. There are short term solutions and long term fixes. Right now, the best I can do is offer immediate solutions as I tend to work with individuals. Long term fixes involve working at the level of the community, and the national level. And there are a lot of barriers to making those long term fixes at this time, but we have to try to continue to break them.

Vespergirl: Thank you so much for sharing your life experiences. I feel like what got lost in what I was trying to say was even though teens as a group might not have fully developed the same decision making skills as adults, like any other developmental skill, there is a bell shaped curve. Some teens have amazing decision making skills at a very young age, and are ready to make adult decisions despite their chronological age. I admire that you knew your risks and figured out how to minimize them, and that you had a back up plan if something were to go wrong. The way you protected yourself using both BC and condoms is usually my first recommendation to teens who have made the decision to have sex. I usually quote the perfect numbers you quoted, as well as the typical user rate numbers, just because most teens are probably "typical users." I also stress that BC does not protect against STI's. However, if a teen tells me she wants to wait, I tell her about the health benefits she gets for waiting. I don't talk about birth control, but I tell her if things for some reason change, to please come talk to us. As you said, the point is not to judge people for their decisions.

Ebree: I think you hit a good point when you said that a parent should not be a kids best friend, there are 2 extremes to parenting, and both have been shown to cause problems.

I also think that Bristol is doing the best she can do with the situation she is in. An extended family, if they are willing, can be a very strong asset to a teen in this situation. My aunt had a baby young, and her husband than left her. My Grandma flew across country to help her until she got on her feet. My cousin never really knew her father, but she is closer to my Grandmother than all the other grandchildren.

 

[trillionaire]

Date: 2/22/2009 1:54:33 PM
Author: beebrisk

Personally, I think all TEEN sex is irresponsible and frankly STUPID. Stupid for putting themselves at risk not only for pregnancy, but disease and heartbreak as well.

I know people who were married at 18. Was their sex irresponsible, either before or after they got married? ANYONE who has sex risks pregnancy, disease and heartbreak, and being older doesn't 'necessarily' make you more equipped to handle it. A high school drop out who has been working and supporting them self who gets pregnant at 18 might be in a better equipped to handle it than a 20 yr old college student. Who's to decide. And sex is the act, the responsibility comes in when dealing with the consequences of the act, or preparing for them in advance. Nothing is fool proof, but dealing with the consequences is what adults do, and it's what teens do too.

FWIW, we take for granted that 'teenagers are children" and once you are 18 or 21, you are magically mature. They are numbers that are relatively arbitrary, and have changed over time in our society. I'm sure some developmental psychology has weighed in, but everyone is different and matures differently. The numbers don't define maturity, the person and their actions do.

 

[cara]

Wow, lots going on in this thread.

Starters, estimates from 19th century American records indicate that approximately 1/3 of brides were pregnant at the time of their marriage. Can''t remember the state, but the idea that social mores of yesteryear magically kept premarital sex from happening is simply not true. There was a higher societal pressure to marry after a pregnancy or to hide or prevent the birth, and standard age of marriage was much younger, but teen sex surely existed both inside and outside marriage in past decades and centuries.

 

[cara]

Second, I disagree that all teen sex is destructive and dangerous. There is always an element of risk involved with sex (emotional, biological/disease, financial if you conceive a child) but those risks don''t magically disappear when you are older. I didn''t engage as a teen, but many of my friends did (in high school and middle school!) and with varying degrees of responsibility and emotional competence. Some were variants of vespergirl - responsible with birth control, emotionally prepared, stable relationships - a few were a mess emotionally and protection-wise (but casual sex and drug abuse seemed to be a consequence of larger emotional problems and not lack of parenting) and a whole passel of my sexually-active teen friends were somewhere in between. Strangely, the degree of parental disapproval and monitoring of whereabouts was not well correlated to these behaviors.

I probably had the least monitoring of any of my peers, and my parents said very little on the subject of sex, either positive or negative, and I never came close! My friends that had to check in ad naseum with their parents were the ones scheduling sex during study halls and sneaking around, quite craftily, to see their boyfriends. Whom were not ''pressuring'' the innocent girls, by any means. But these quasi-responsible girls also got themselves on birth control pills as soon as they could and used condoms, keeping their risks low. One friend''s mother took her to the doctor at 17, put her on the pill, went away for the weekend and told her sex was a wonderful thing and she should get busy with her boyfriend! Maybe this direct style was just how they did it back in her home country (Russia), but my friend certainly appreciated not having to sneak around and her mother''s open approval. My most messed-up friend ended up getting pregnant at 14 and having an abortion without telling her parents, because her parents had successfully conveyed that her having sex was completely unacceptable to them and they would kick her out. She was also having lots of other issues mentally and was clearly NOT having sex in a mentally healthy or responsible way. But she was having sex in the irresponsible, unhealthy way of a mentally troubled 14 yro.

So here''s a question for the no-contraception-talk-no-way folks. Say you had such a messed up daughter yourself. A daughter that you are supervising 24-7 outside of school, but who is one to skip class and have sex in the stairwell just to spite you. Would you want this girl to feel comfortable enough with you to talk about birth control, to talk about preventing STDs, to talk about how and when it is appropriate to decide to have sex - in a way that might, say, keep her from getting abused but not keep her celibate until 25? What about to come to you if she happens to get herself pregnant? Or, do you want to convey the no-sex, not-acceptable at all message with such ferocity that if your daughter were to make a stupid, irresponsible choice she would feel compelled to deal with it without telling you? ie. take advantage of the free clinic without any parental involvement?

 

[cara]

Ok, more personal anecdote. I worked at a Catholic girls school with several teen moms, and a lot of the girls thought that having sex and using birth control were both sins. So if they were going to mess up by having premarital sex, why conduct another sin by using birth control? Yes they knew of the existence of birth control, but not a lot of concrete facts about the potential benefit of contraceptives to arm them to be motivated to acquire a sinful product that they were only going to use if they were sinning. Better just to ignore the possibility that they would be having sex, even if they were having sex.

The teachers really had to work hard to try to counteract that message. If an 80 yro nun can say to her class of girls, "If you have premarital sex, you are going to hell and your boyfriend''s penis is going to shrivel up and fall off, but if you do, don''t you dare do it without protection! Don''t compound your stupidity by ending up with a disease or a baby," surely a parent can also convey a similar message? My aunt did it by telling her children, "God doesn''t want you to have sex yet, sex is for your husband/wife, and I don''t want you to have sex yet because of X,Y,Z, but I am telling you as your mother that I don''t want to be a grandmother yet. So if you choose to ignore God''s wishes, make sure you understand that I will not be raising your child." A mixed message, yes, but one that most teens are capable of understanding.

Last, I strongly disagree that teenagers are toddlers that need to be kept in a baby-proofed world by their parents. Teens are adolescents. They need to be given responsibility slowly, to teach them how to use it. A consequence of that is that parents must begin to provide them accurate and complete information about the world, not prefiltered information designed to restrict their knowledge and lead them to the choice a parent wants for their kids. Its as stupid as not telling your kid how credit cards work cause you don''t want them to use them. What happens when they go to college, get a free card in the mail and think that they''ve found a money tree? Just like the kid who only hears sex=bad=sex=bad and then, fooling around with his/her girl/boyfriend discovers it feels *pretty awesome* and feels cheated out of relatively valuable information. Just because a parent decides that their child will only have the choice of abstinence doesn''t mean that their child will only have the choice of abstinence. Don''t you want a less bad choice (sex+condom, say?) on the table?

Those that say they don''t want that option on the table strike me as unrealistic idealists willing to sacrifice kids for their beliefs.

 

[vespergirl]

Date: 2/24/2009 8:06:54 PM
Author: cara
Ok, more personal anecdote. I worked at a Catholic girls school with several teen moms, and a lot of the girls thought that having sex and using birth control were both sins. So if they were going to mess up by having premarital sex, why conduct another sin by using birth control? Yes they knew of the existence of birth control, but not a lot of concrete facts about the potential benefit of contraceptives to arm them to be motivated to acquire a sinful product that they were only going to use if they were sinning. Better just to ignore the possibility that they would be having sex, even if they were having sex.

The teachers really had to work hard to try to counteract that message. If an 80 yro nun can say to her class of girls, ''If you have premarital sex, you are going to hell and your boyfriend''s penis is going to shrivel up and fall off, but if you do, don''t you dare do it without protection! Don''t compound your stupidity by ending up with a disease or a baby,'' surely a parent can also convey a similar message? My aunt did it by telling her children, ''God doesn''t want you to have sex yet, sex is for your husband/wife, and I don''t want you to have sex yet because of X,Y,Z, but I am telling you as your mother that I don''t want to be a grandmother yet. So if you choose to ignore God''s wishes, make sure you understand that I will not be raising your child.'' A mixed message, yes, but one that most teens are capable of understanding.

Last, I strongly disagree that teenagers are toddlers that need to be kept in a baby-proofed world by their parents. Teens are adolescents. They need to be given responsibility slowly, to teach them how to use it. A consequence of that is that parents must begin to provide them accurate and complete information about the world, not prefiltered information designed to restrict their knowledge and lead them to the choice a parent wants for their kids. Its as stupid as not telling your kid how credit cards work cause you don''t want them to use them. What happens when they go to college, get a free card in the mail and think that they''ve found a money tree? Just like the kid who only hears sex=bad=sex=bad and then, fooling around with his/her girl/boyfriend discovers it feels *pretty awesome* and feels cheated out of relatively valuable information. Just because a parent decides that their child will only have the choice of abstinence doesn''t mean that their child will only have the choice of abstinence. Don''t you want a less bad choice (sex+condom, say?) on the table?

Those that say they don''t want that option on the table strike me as unrealistic idealists willing to sacrifice kids for their beliefs.

Cara, I completely agree with you, especially the last statement. That''s exactly how the Sarah/Bristol Palin situation seems to me. Thanks for such thoughtful posts.

 

[E B]

Date: 2/24/2009 8:06:54 PM
Author: cara

Last, I strongly disagree that teenagers are toddlers that need to be kept in a baby-proofed world by their parents. Teens are adolescents. They need to be given responsibility slowly, to teach them how to use it. A consequence of that is that parents must begin to provide them accurate and complete information about the world, not prefiltered information designed to restrict their knowledge and lead them to the choice a parent wants for their kids. Its as stupid as not telling your kid how credit cards work cause you don''t want them to use them. What happens when they go to college, get a free card in the mail and think that they''ve found a money tree? Just like the kid who only hears sex=bad=sex=bad and then, fooling around with his/her girl/boyfriend discovers it feels *pretty awesome* and feels cheated out of relatively valuable information. Just because a parent decides that their child will only have the choice of abstinence doesn''t mean that their child will only have the choice of abstinence. Don''t you want a less bad choice (sex+condom, say?) on the table?


Those that say they don''t want that option on the table strike me as unrealistic idealists willing to sacrifice kids for their beliefs.

Well said- I completely agree.

 

[MoonWater]

Date: 2/24/2009 3:33:55 PM
Author: trillionaire

Date: 2/22/2009 1:54:33 PM

Author: beebrisk


Personally, I think all TEEN sex is irresponsible and frankly STUPID. Stupid for putting themselves at risk not only for pregnancy, but disease and heartbreak as well.

I know people who were married at 18. Was their sex irresponsible, either before or after they got married? ANYONE who has sex risks pregnancy, disease and heartbreak, and being older doesn''t ''necessarily'' make you more equipped to handle it. A high school drop out who has been working and supporting them self who gets pregnant at 18 might be in a better equipped to handle it than a 20 yr old college student. Who''s to decide. And sex is the act, the responsibility comes in when dealing with the consequences of the act, or preparing for them in advance. Nothing is fool proof, but dealing with the consequences is what adults do, and it''s what teens do too.


FWIW, we take for granted that ''teenagers are children'' and once you are 18 or 21, you are magically mature. They are numbers that are relatively arbitrary, and have changed over time in our society. I''m sure some developmental psychology has weighed in, but everyone is different and matures differently. The numbers don''t define maturity, the person and their actions do.

 

[MoonWater]

Date: 2/24/2009 8:06:54 PM
Author: cara
Ok, more personal anecdote. I worked at a Catholic girls school with several teen moms, and a lot of the girls thought that having sex and using birth control were both sins. So if they were going to mess up by having premarital sex, why conduct another sin by using birth control? Yes they knew of the existence of birth control, but not a lot of concrete facts about the potential benefit of contraceptives to arm them to be motivated to acquire a sinful product that they were only going to use if they were sinning. Better just to ignore the possibility that they would be having sex, even if they were having sex.


The teachers really had to work hard to try to counteract that message. If an 80 yro nun can say to her class of girls, ''If you have premarital sex, you are going to hell and your boyfriend''s penis is going to shrivel up and fall off, but if you do, don''t you dare do it without protection! Don''t compound your stupidity by ending up with a disease or a baby,'' surely a parent can also convey a similar message? My aunt did it by telling her children, ''God doesn''t want you to have sex yet, sex is for your husband/wife, and I don''t want you to have sex yet because of X,Y,Z, but I am telling you as your mother that I don''t want to be a grandmother yet. So if you choose to ignore God''s wishes, make sure you understand that I will not be raising your child.'' A mixed message, yes, but one that most teens are capable of understanding.


Last, I strongly disagree that teenagers are toddlers that need to be kept in a baby-proofed world by their parents. Teens are adolescents. They need to be given responsibility slowly, to teach them how to use it. A consequence of that is that parents must begin to provide them accurate and complete information about the world, not prefiltered information designed to restrict their knowledge and lead them to the choice a parent wants for their kids. Its as stupid as not telling your kid how credit cards work cause you don''t want them to use them. What happens when they go to college, get a free card in the mail and think that they''ve found a money tree? Just like the kid who only hears sex=bad=sex=bad and then, fooling around with his/her girl/boyfriend discovers it feels *pretty awesome* and feels cheated out of relatively valuable information. Just because a parent decides that their child will only have the choice of abstinence doesn''t mean that their child will only have the choice of abstinence. Don''t you want a less bad choice (sex+condom, say?) on the table?


Those that say they don''t want that option on the table strike me as unrealistic idealists willing to sacrifice kids for their beliefs.

 

[FrekeChild]

...sigh...

 

[iheartscience]

Date: 2/24/2009 8:06:54 PM
Author: cara
Ok, more personal anecdote. I worked at a Catholic girls school with several teen moms, and a lot of the girls thought that having sex and using birth control were both sins. So if they were going to mess up by having premarital sex, why conduct another sin by using birth control? Yes they knew of the existence of birth control, but not a lot of concrete facts about the potential benefit of contraceptives to arm them to be motivated to acquire a sinful product that they were only going to use if they were sinning. Better just to ignore the possibility that they would be having sex, even if they were having sex.

The teachers really had to work hard to try to counteract that message. If an 80 yro nun can say to her class of girls, ''If you have premarital sex, you are going to hell and your boyfriend''s penis is going to shrivel up and fall off, but if you do, don''t you dare do it without protection! Don''t compound your stupidity by ending up with a disease or a baby,'' surely a parent can also convey a similar message? My aunt did it by telling her children, ''God doesn''t want you to have sex yet, sex is for your husband/wife, and I don''t want you to have sex yet because of X,Y,Z, but I am telling you as your mother that I don''t want to be a grandmother yet. So if you choose to ignore God''s wishes, make sure you understand that I will not be raising your child.'' A mixed message, yes, but one that most teens are capable of understanding.

Last, I strongly disagree that teenagers are toddlers that need to be kept in a baby-proofed world by their parents. Teens are adolescents. They need to be given responsibility slowly, to teach them how to use it. A consequence of that is that parents must begin to provide them accurate and complete information about the world, not prefiltered information designed to restrict their knowledge and lead them to the choice a parent wants for their kids. Its as stupid as not telling your kid how credit cards work cause you don''t want them to use them. What happens when they go to college, get a free card in the mail and think that they''ve found a money tree? Just like the kid who only hears sex=bad=sex=bad and then, fooling around with his/her girl/boyfriend discovers it feels *pretty awesome* and feels cheated out of relatively valuable information. Just because a parent decides that their child will only have the choice of abstinence doesn''t mean that their child will only have the choice of abstinence. Don''t you want a less bad choice (sex+condom, say?) on the table?

Those that say they don''t want that option on the table strike me as unrealistic idealists willing to sacrifice kids for their beliefs.

A thousand dittos! I think everyone who wants to put chastity belts on their daughters and lock them up until they''re 20 so they won''t be having teenage sex should take this to heart. But something tells me they won''t!

 

[beebrisk]

Date: 2/25/2009 9:44:03 AM
Author: thing2of2

Date: 2/24/2009 8:06:54 PM

Author: cara

Ok, more personal anecdote. I worked at a Catholic girls school with several teen moms, and a lot of the girls thought that having sex and using birth control were both sins. So if they were going to mess up by having premarital sex, why conduct another sin by using birth control? Yes they knew of the existence of birth control, but not a lot of concrete facts about the potential benefit of contraceptives to arm them to be motivated to acquire a sinful product that they were only going to use if they were sinning. Better just to ignore the possibility that they would be having sex, even if they were having sex.


The teachers really had to work hard to try to counteract that message. If an 80 yro nun can say to her class of girls, ''If you have premarital sex, you are going to hell and your boyfriend''s penis is going to shrivel up and fall off, but if you do, don''t you dare do it without protection! Don''t compound your stupidity by ending up with a disease or a baby,'' surely a parent can also convey a similar message? My aunt did it by telling her children, ''God doesn''t want you to have sex yet, sex is for your husband/wife, and I don''t want you to have sex yet because of X,Y,Z, but I am telling you as your mother that I don''t want to be a grandmother yet. So if you choose to ignore God''s wishes, make sure you understand that I will not be raising your child.'' A mixed message, yes, but one that most teens are capable of understanding.


Last, I strongly disagree that teenagers are toddlers that need to be kept in a baby-proofed world by their parents. Teens are adolescents. They need to be given responsibility slowly, to teach them how to use it. A consequence of that is that parents must begin to provide them accurate and complete information about the world, not prefiltered information designed to restrict their knowledge and lead them to the choice a parent wants for their kids. Its as stupid as not telling your kid how credit cards work cause you don''t want them to use them. What happens when they go to college, get a free card in the mail and think that they''ve found a money tree? Just like the kid who only hears sex=bad=sex=bad and then, fooling around with his/her girl/boyfriend discovers it feels *pretty awesome* and feels cheated out of relatively valuable information. Just because a parent decides that their child will only have the choice of abstinence doesn''t mean that their child will only have the choice of abstinence. Don''t you want a less bad choice (sex+condom, say?) on the table?


Those that say they don''t want that option on the table strike me as unrealistic idealists willing to sacrifice kids for their beliefs.

A thousand dittos! I think everyone who wants to put chastity belts on their daughters and lock them up until they''re 20 so they won''t be having teenage sex should take this to heart. But something tells me they won''t!

Not a single person here who thinks teen sex is a bad idea has said, or even implied, that "sex is bad", that their kids should have no choices, that we wish we could lock them up in chastity belts, or withhold information from them. Not a single one.

But should you wish to view a more traditional view of the subject from folks who feel children have always been best served and safer not having sex as a teenager as purely legalistic, and "Puritanical", than by all means go ahead. But if you are going to argue the point, argue it honestly because you are commenting against ideas that were never expressed here.

 

[cara]

Date: 2/20/2009 9:26:55 PM
Author: HollyS

Date: 2/20/2009 8:18:44 PM
Author: zhuzhu
... The discussion is on the most effective strategy to HELP children in today's world to best protect themselves from unexpected pregnancy and STDs. That, is what education is for.

The point is not you vs. me, us vs. them, what should be taught or not taught. The point is we should not have to HELP CHILDREN protect themselves from pregnancy and STDs. Parents, educators, society at large should make it difficult, if not close to impossible, for CHILDREN to be in situations where they have to 1) make a choice, 2) use protection, 3) remember everything anyone has ever said about 'what they need to know'.

There never was an ideal world. But people used to have the strength of character to say it's not okay to do whatever you feel like doing, at the moment you feel like doing it. THAT is the real issue. Ms. Palin looking the other way when her daughter was unchaperoned -- trusting that Bristol would make the right choice because she'd been taught -- proves the point that children in today's world will not make the right choice. It has to be made for them. And the only way to do it is to make it socially unacceptable, once again, to be sexually active at a young age.

Nothing else is going to work.

Along with parents absolutely refusing to give their children 'choices' when it comes to being sexually active, is the constant watchful eyes seeing everything their child is doing. Of course it can be done; parents did it for many generations prior to - say - the Seventies. But being vigilant requires effort. Sadly, quite a few parents don't make the effort. It is evident that Sarah Palin did not make effort enough....

Teenagers shouldn't carry the burden of having 'choices'. Or by extension, 'consequences'.

Date: 2/25/2009 10:50:01 AM
Author: beebrisk

Not a single person here who thinks teen sex is a bad idea has said, or even implied, that 'sex is bad', that their kids should have no choices, that we wish we could lock them up in chastity belts, or withhold information from them. Not a single one.

But should you wish to view a more traditional view of the subject from folks who feel children have always been best served and safer not having sex as a teenager as purely legalistic, and 'Puritanical', than by all means go ahead. But if you are going to argue the point, argue it honestly because you are commenting against ideas that were never expressed here.

Beebrisk, see Holly's quote above, which you later applauded. This, combined with her other quotes, leads me to believe that she does not believe that teaching teenagers about contraceptives is the proper course. To me, that is withholding information. She also plainly states that parents should keep teens from having the opportunity to make a choice by monitoring them closely. I didn't make the chastity belt comment, but that is where it is coming from.

If I have misunderstood, and you and Holly are for comprehensive sex-ed, please let me know. I also simply think that while attentive parents are a good thing, they are not sufficient to prevent all opportunities for teens to engage in sexual activity. Nor would I want to live in a world where that degree of supervision was possible or advised.

As for the sex=bad thing, well, if a strong message is conveyed to a teen about the immorality, danger, stupidity, unacceptability of them having sex (all words used on this thread), it can come across as sex=bad. If you are a teen, and someone is telling you 'Teen Sex is Bad', it can come across as 'sex is bad'. Especially if, to really get the point across and scare kids into abstinence, all the bad aspects of sex are emphasized and the good aspects are either not emphasized or are always placed in the far-off context of 'when you are married/older.' I didn't say that people on this thread were advocating teaching sex=bad to teens, I said that might be the message a teen understood.

I am arguing honestly here. Are you reading honestly?

While I don't believe that teen sex is entirely bad, I understand and agree with many of the arguments against teen sex, and risk-aversion is certainly part of why I abstained as a teenager. I just think that teens should be given complete and accurate information about sex and contraception, and that some teens ARE going to have sex. To pretend that they are not, and keep information from them that would help them be more safe and responsible, is putting unrealistic beliefs ahead of teen's safety and health. One can be highly traditional, and advocate strongly for saving sex for marriage or until much older, and still teach your kids about birth control and disease prevention or allow these topics to be taught in schools.

However, there is always a balance between making your case and keeping communication lines open. State too strongly that teen sex or premarried sex is unacceptable and immoral, and you increase the chances that your teen or adult child will simply not inform you of their sexual activity, if they make a choice of which they know you will disapprove. Its only human.

If you are interested in a dialogue, maybe you could respond to the last paragraph of my first post to this thread? What would you want for your daughter, if she were acting out sexually in an unhealthy manner at a young age? Or even if she just made a stupid mistake?

 

[beebrisk]

Date: 2/25/2009 12:15:04 PM
Author: cara

Date: 2/20/2009 9:26:55 PM

Author: HollyS

Date: 2/20/2009 8:18:44 PM

Author: zhuzhu

... The discussion is on the most effective strategy to HELP children in today''s world to best protect themselves from unexpected pregnancy and STDs. That, is what education is for.

The point is not you vs. me, us vs. them, what should be taught or not taught. The point is we should not have to HELP CHILDREN protect themselves from pregnancy and STDs. Parents, educators, society at large should make it difficult, if not close to impossible, for CHILDREN to be in situations where they have to 1) make a choice, 2) use protection, 3) remember everything anyone has ever said about ''what they need to know''.


There never was an ideal world. But people used to have the strength of character to say it''s not okay to do whatever you feel like doing, at the moment you feel like doing it. THAT is the real issue. Ms. Palin looking the other way when her daughter was unchaperoned -- trusting that Bristol would make the right choice because she''d been taught -- proves the point that children in today''s world will not make the right choice. It has to be made for them. And the only way to do it is to make it socially unacceptable, once again, to be sexually active at a young age.


Nothing else is going to work.

Along with parents absolutely refusing to give their children ''choices'' when it comes to being sexually active, is the constant watchful eyes seeing everything their child is doing. Of course it can be done; parents did it for many generations prior to - say - the Seventies. But being vigilant requires effort. Sadly, quite a few parents don''t make the effort. It is evident that Sarah Palin did not make effort enough....


Teenagers shouldn''t carry the burden of having ''choices''. Or by extension, ''consequences''.

Date: 2/25/2009 10:50:01 AM

Author: beebrisk


Not a single person here who thinks teen sex is a bad idea has said, or even implied, that ''sex is bad'', that their kids should have no choices, that we wish we could lock them up in chastity belts, or withhold information from them. Not a single one.


But should you wish to view a more traditional view of the subject from folks who feel children have always been best served and safer not having sex as a teenager as purely legalistic, and ''Puritanical'', than by all means go ahead. But if you are going to argue the point, argue it honestly because you are commenting against ideas that were never expressed here.

Beebrisk, see Holly''s quote above, which you later applauded. This, combined with her other quotes, leads me to believe that she does not believe that teaching teenagers about contraceptives is the proper course. To me, that is withholding information. She also plainly states that parents should keep teens from having the opportunity to make a choice by monitoring them closely. I didn''t make the chastity belt comment, but that is where it is coming from.


If I have misunderstood, and you and Holly are for comprehensive sex-ed, please let me know. I also simply think that while attentive parents are a good thing, they are not sufficient to prevent all opportunities for teens to engage in sexual activity. Nor would I want to live in a world where that degree of supervision was possible or advised.


As for the sex=bad thing, well, if a strong message is conveyed to a teen about the immorality, danger, stupidity, unacceptability of them having sex (all words used on this thread), it can come across as sex=bad. If you are a teen, and someone is telling you ''Teen Sex is Bad'', it can come across as ''sex is bad''. Especially if, to really get the point across and scare kids into abstinence, all the bad aspects of sex are emphasized and the good aspects are either not emphasized or are always placed in the far-off context of ''when you are married/older.'' I didn''t say that people on this thread were advocating teaching sex=bad to teens, I said that might be the message a teen understood.


I am arguing honestly here. Are you reading honestly?


While I don''t believe that teen sex is entirely bad, I understand and agree with many of the arguments against teen sex, and risk-aversion is certainly part of why I abstained as a teenager. I just think that teens should be given complete and accurate information about sex and contraception, and that some teens ARE going to have sex. To pretend that they are not, and keep information from them that would help them be more safe and responsible, is putting unrealistic beliefs ahead of teen''s safety and health. One can be highly traditional, and advocate strongly for saving sex for marriage or until much older, and still teach your kids about birth control and disease prevention or allow these topics to be taught in schools.


However, there is always a balance between making your case and keeping communication lines open. State too strongly that teen sex or premarried sex is unacceptable and immoral, and you increase the chances that your teen or adult child will simply not inform you of their sexual activity, if they make a choice of which they know you will disapprove. Its only human.


If you are interested in a dialogue, maybe you could respond to the last paragraph of my first post to this thread? What would you want for your daughter, if she were acting out sexually in an unhealthy manner at a young age? Or even if she just made a stupid mistake?

I would continue to applaud Holly for having the safest and most caring attitude about teen sex I''ve seen here yet. As for her comment about keeping kids from making choices, well, bravo to that too. Giving your kids complete freedom to make choices (often foolish ones) does not equate to "giving a kid a chastity belt". It''s simply teaching a set of values DESIGNED to keep kids safe and maintain a sense of innocence. As much as possible in this world, anyway.

And what''s wrong with sending a "strong message" about the morals, dangers and risks involved early sex? What in the world is wrong with that??? That''s called good parenting in my book. Frankly, if it makes a kid a little "afraid" of having sex at 15, then nothing lost there! I think there''s an inherent understanding in all kids that if a parent believes "TEEN sex is bad", that doesn''t equal "SEX is bad". Big difference there. I''ll give even a 14 year old credit for understand that!

Between school and the media, most teens are given ample information about birth control but I would prefer it came directly from a parent. However, that doesn''t mean the behavior should be condoned, or that once it''s discussed a kid should be "free" to make his own choices regarding sex. Responsible parents should be parenting and not offering kids ropes with which to hang themselves.

The "chastity belt", "sex is bad", "if we say it''s wrong there''s more chance they''ll do it" arguments are absolutely dishonest.

A parent with a kid who decides to wait doesn''t have that happen just "by chance". It takes work and a lot of love.

 

[zhuzhu]

beebrisk,
Do you mind me asking if you have had or have teenage children of your own? I am just curious as to if your strong belief is theoretical in nature, or if you had a success story of your own based on your preferred parenting style.

 

[luckystar112]

Just playing Devil''s advocate, but I don''t think that matters in this discussion. I don''t believe you have children, correct? I don''t, Moon doesn''t, Thing2 doesn''t, Holly doesn''t, Ebree doesn''t, Haven doesn''t (although she has more experience with teenagers then everyone mentioned so far). So I think its safe to say that none of us have "been there" yet.

 

[beebrisk]

Date: 2/25/2009 2:34:05 PM
Author: zhuzhu
beebrisk,

Do you mind me asking if you have had or have teenage children of your own? I am just curious as to if your strong belief is theoretical in nature, or if you had a success story of your own based on your preferred parenting style.

Funny really, that in light of the many "strong beliefs" being thrown around this thread you ask only me for justification?

I find your question quite interesting really, but it''s one that brings up a whole host of issues, none of which I''ll go into here as it would lead us off the original topic.

Suffice to say, my opinion has been formed and forged in reality--not psycho-babble.

Nuff said.

 

[vespergirl]

Date: 2/25/2009 6:18:54 PM
Author: beebrisk

Date: 2/25/2009 2:34:05 PM
Author: zhuzhu
beebrisk,

Do you mind me asking if you have had or have teenage children of your own? I am just curious as to if your strong belief is theoretical in nature, or if you had a success story of your own based on your preferred parenting style.

Funny really, that in light of the many ''strong beliefs'' being thrown around this thread you ask only me for justification?

I find your question quite interesting really, but it''s one that brings up a whole host of issues, none of which I''ll go into here as it would lead us off the original topic.

Suffice to say, my opinion has been formed and forged in reality--not psycho-babble.

Nuff said.

How interesting that so many people without children have such strong convictions about parenting. As a parent, I find it ridiculous that people without children think that they can offer valuable parenting advice. It''s as silly as Catholic priests providing marriage counseling.

And as for people who work with children, I think they do a great service to society, but it''s still a different ballgame than parenting. For example, one of my best friends, who is a pre-K teacher, has frequently been critical of the parenting skills of other people we know in our community. She has always felt that she understands what it means to raise young children because of her job, and has sometimes spoken in a condescending manner to parents that she feels are subpar. Recently, however, she had her first child. She has confided to me how completely overwhelmed and stunned she is by motherhood. She would always say that she takes care of young kids all day, so she knows it isn''t that hard, but she just told me that now that she understands the 24/7 demands of parenting, she has a completely different attitude towards those parents that she judged before.

So basically, I feel that unless you are a parent, your opinions on parenting don''t hold as much water.

 

[E B]

Date: 2/25/2009 7:19:13 PM
Author: vespergirl

So basically, I feel that unless you are a parent, your opinions on parenting don't hold as much water.

vesper,

I agree. I was merely offering my perspective as twenty-something who was a teenager not long ago, one who dealt with the same pressures in the same climate teens experience today.

 

[HollyS]

Date: 2/25/2009 6:09:18 PM
Author: luckystar112
Just playing Devil''s advocate, but I don''t think that matters in this discussion. I don''t believe you have children, correct? I don''t, Moon doesn''t, Thing2 doesn''t, Holly doesn''t, Ebree doesn''t, Haven doesn''t (although she has more experience with teenagers then everyone mentioned so far). So I think its safe to say that none of us have ''been there'' yet.

Most of us don''t. That isn''t the topic of discussion. We''ve all been teenagers, and lived to tell the story. And someone''s recent departure from their teen years doesn''t make them an expert on any subject merely because we''re talking about teens.

 

[beebrisk]

Date: 2/25/2009 7:19:13 PM
Author: vespergirl

Date: 2/25/2009 6:18:54 PM

Author: beebrisk

Date: 2/25/2009 2:34:05 PM

Author: zhuzhu

beebrisk,


Do you mind me asking if you have had or have teenage children of your own? I am just curious as to if your strong belief is theoretical in nature, or if you had a success story of your own based on your preferred parenting style.

Funny really, that in light of the many ''strong beliefs'' being thrown around this thread you ask only me for justification?


I find your question quite interesting really, but it''s one that brings up a whole host of issues, none of which I''ll go into here as it would lead us off the original topic.


Suffice to say, my opinion has been formed and forged in reality--not psycho-babble.


Nuff said.

How interesting that so many people without children have such strong convictions about parenting. As a parent, I find it ridiculous that people without children think that they can offer valuable parenting advice. It''s as silly as Catholic priests providing marriage counseling.


And as for people who work with children, I think they do a great service to society, but it''s still a different ballgame than parenting. For example, one of my best friends, who is a pre-K teacher, has frequently been critical of the parenting skills of other people we know in our community. She has always felt that she understands what it means to raise young children because of her job, and has sometimes spoken in a condescending manner to parents that she feels are subpar. Recently, however, she had her first child. She has confided to me how completely overwhelmed and stunned she is by motherhood. She would always say that she takes care of young kids all day, so she knows it isn''t that hard, but she just told me that now that she understands the 24/7 demands of parenting, she has a completely different attitude towards those parents that she judged before.


So basically, I feel that unless you are a parent, your opinions on parenting don''t hold as much water.

As I said above, my opinion was formed in reality.

So I guess you''d have to submit then, that even those here who feel differently than I do about teen sex have nothing worth adding to the conversation unless they''re parents?

 

[luckystar112]

Date: 2/25/2009 7:28:57 PM
Author: EBree


vesper,

I agree. I was merely offering my perspective as twenty-something who was a teenager not long ago, one who dealt with the same pressures in the same climate teens experience today.

Ditto.

But I do think it''s funny that most of us who have commented on this thread don''t even have teenagers!

While I agree that being a parent is a whole different ballgame than being a teacher, I would say that the relationship is very close, especially for high school teachers. In today''s society a lot of parents delegate their parental responsibilities to teachers (Including sex ed, making sure their homework is done, discipline, etc). Teenagers also spend a majority of their time at school, so the teachers often have the upper hand in their lives. They overhear conversations, and I guarantee they know who has and who has not had sex, most likely before the parents even know. They know who your child is hanging out with, who was at the big party the previous weekend, and a host of other information that teens won''t share with their parents.

 

[cara]

I think anyone who''s been a teen can comment on the teen sex discussion! Or, anyone who''s spent a lot of time with teens if they happen to have forgotten their own adolescence.

My teens seem a long way away but I can at least remember parts of them, and I''ve taught some high school, which provided access to kids from different communities than where I grew up.

 

[Haven]

Date: 2/25/2009 7:19:13 PM
Author: vespergirl

How interesting that so many people without children have such strong convictions about parenting. As a parent, I find it ridiculous that people without children think that they can offer valuable parenting advice. It's as silly as Catholic priests providing marriage counseling.

And as for people who work with children, I think they do a great service to society, but it's still a different ballgame than parenting. For example, one of my best friends, who is a pre-K teacher, has frequently been critical of the parenting skills of other people we know in our community. She has always felt that she understands what it means to raise young children because of her job, and has sometimes spoken in a condescending manner to parents that she feels are subpar. Recently, however, she had her first child. She has confided to me how completely overwhelmed and stunned she is by motherhood. She would always say that she takes care of young kids all day, so she knows it isn't that hard, but she just told me that now that she understands the 24/7 demands of parenting, she has a completely different attitude towards those parents that she judged before.

So basically, I feel that unless you are a parent, your opinions on parenting don't hold as much water.

vesper--I agree with your last line, and I'm assuming from this post that you are the parent of a teenager, so let me salute you. Trust me, I get it that I will not understand the difficulties of parenting until I have children of my own, and I DEFINITELY won't understand the difficulties of parenting a teen until I have a teen of my own.

However, I do work with teenagers for eight and sometimes 12 hours a day, five days a week, ten months a year. I've chaperoned international student trips, dances, over-nighters, athletic games, you name it. I have been a teacher, confidant, disciplinarian, and role-model to hundreds of teens. You wouldn't understand this if you've never taught, but students are pretty transparent and teachers often know far more about their students than the parents know.

ALL I can say with the information I've gathered over the years is that I have never once been surprised by a child's choices and behavior after meeting the parents, good or bad, and this fact leads me to believe that parenting is of tantamount importance in a child's life. And due to the large amount of "issues" I've seen with my own and others' students, a lot of parents are in desperate need of some help parenting. Can I give that help? No. Does that disqualify my from making the assertion that it is needed? Absolutely not.

And as a parent of a teenager, I'm guessing that you already know that your child's teachers can be your greatest allies--we do not only deliver instruction, but we often save your children from themselves. We are often the only adults who know that a child is doing illicit drugs, getting drunk regularly, having sex, cutting herself, skipping meals, falling into depression, engaging in an inappropriate relationship, etc. We are the ones who make the difficult phone calls to parents, police officers, social workers, administrators, when we find ourselves in possession of information that could very well save a life. We are the ones who see your child every single day, and are often the first to notice a shift in his behavior, or that persistent bandage on her wrist. I tell my kids that I'm the biggest snitch in the world and that I'll do whatever it takes to protect them from themselves, and I do. Most of the time, when I call a parent with vital information about their child they say something along the lines of "I had no idea. He seemed normal this morning, but he never talks to me anymore."

You may disagree, but I feel more than qualified to say that parents affect their children, and a lot of parents out there need some serious guidance.

 

[LtlFirecracker]

Date: 2/25/2009 9:44:03 AM
Author: thing2of2

Date: 2/24/2009 8:06:54 PM

Author: cara

Ok, more personal anecdote. I worked at a Catholic girls school with several teen moms, and a lot of the girls thought that having sex and using birth control were both sins. So if they were going to mess up by having premarital sex, why conduct another sin by using birth control? Yes they knew of the existence of birth control, but not a lot of concrete facts about the potential benefit of contraceptives to arm them to be motivated to acquire a sinful product that they were only going to use if they were sinning. Better just to ignore the possibility that they would be having sex, even if they were having sex.


The teachers really had to work hard to try to counteract that message. If an 80 yro nun can say to her class of girls, 'If you have premarital sex, you are going to hell and your boyfriend's penis is going to shrivel up and fall off, but if you do, don't you dare do it without protection! Don't compound your stupidity by ending up with a disease or a baby,' surely a parent can also convey a similar message? My aunt did it by telling her children, 'God doesn't want you to have sex yet, sex is for your husband/wife, and I don't want you to have sex yet because of X,Y,Z, but I am telling you as your mother that I don't want to be a grandmother yet. So if you choose to ignore God's wishes, make sure you understand that I will not be raising your child.' A mixed message, yes, but one that most teens are capable of understanding.


Last, I strongly disagree that teenagers are toddlers that need to be kept in a baby-proofed world by their parents. Teens are adolescents. They need to be given responsibility slowly, to teach them how to use it. A consequence of that is that parents must begin to provide them accurate and complete information about the world, not prefiltered information designed to restrict their knowledge and lead them to the choice a parent wants for their kids. Its as stupid as not telling your kid how credit cards work cause you don't want them to use them. What happens when they go to college, get a free card in the mail and think that they've found a money tree? Just like the kid who only hears sex=bad=sex=bad and then, fooling around with his/her girl/boyfriend discovers it feels *pretty awesome* and feels cheated out of relatively valuable information. Just because a parent decides that their child will only have the choice of abstinence doesn't mean that their child will only have the choice of abstinence. Don't you want a less bad choice (sex+condom, say?) on the table?


Those that say they don't want that option on the table strike me as unrealistic idealists willing to sacrifice kids for their beliefs.

A thousand dittos! I think everyone who wants to put chastity belts on their daughters and lock them up until they're 20 so they won't be having teenage sex should take this to heart. But something tells me they won't!

Cara, very good points and very well said.

You are right, most of us here don't have teens, and I will be the first to admit I don't know what it is like to be a parent. I do work with them on a pretty regular basis, and had several friends who made very different decisions when it came to sex in their teen years. I have friends who ended up pregnant, and friends who waited until marriage, and everything in between. I am using the experiences of the benefits and consequences I have seen from those decisions. I myself was not active in my teen years.

I do want to point out, just like babies go through a stages of development (lift head, roll over, sit up, crawl, pull to stand, walk), and toddlers go through their independence stage ("NO" tantrums), teenagers are still developing and go through stages of social and cognitive development. The first big thing that happens is that teens sift from their parents being the people they want to be with the most to their peer group. In middle adolescence (about age 15-17) adolescence begin to question the values of their parents and start trying to figure out what their values are. This is what often leads to friction between parents and teens and teens going against their parents wishes. By the time the reach adulthood, most adolescence end up agreeing with the values of their parents. But going though the questioning process allows them to make their values their own and not something that was forced on them by their parents.

I think that adolescents appreciate someone who gives them factual information when they are going though these phases of trying to figure out what is right for them. I remember being an teen at a Catholic school with a young teacher who was giving us all the information about birth control as well as the consequences of sex. She got shut down by the school and we started getting abstinence only education with a lot of scare tactics with some of the information given to us inaccurate. Many of us were upset that we where being mislead in the way that we were. It made us think that the school thought we were stupid, and made us angry. That made us not want to listen to what they had to say.

Many of the teens I have spoken to who have chosen to wait on their own understand that there can be emotional consequences to sex (although as many people said, not all teenage sex comes with this). They know that effective birth control is out there, but still choose to wait. I think that keeping information from teens and using fear as a deterrent makes them feel like they are still being treated like kids, and than you get teens doing all the stuff Cara talked about.

 

[purrfectpear]

My son is 25 now and I began giving him the condom talk when he was 11 and I kept it up. I told him when he had sex was up to him, but if and when that occurred, a condom would be used. I also told him that if he chose to ignore that advice and some girl became pregnant there would be NO help from me. None. Zip. Nada. He would be the one paying child support for the next 18 years, and further I would see to it that he paid that support even if he made minimum wage. Period.

I don''t know if my frank talk took all the fun and mystery out of it (I know he was uncomfortable with the idea that mommy could discuss sex), or if he just had good common sense. I do know that he didn''t consummate anything until he was out of high school and that there are no unplanned pregnancies yet.

IMO, that''s successful parenting.

 

[Haven]

I agree, Purrfectpear. Well done!

 

[vespergirl]

Date: 2/25/2009 7:19:13 PM
Author: vespergirl

Date: 2/25/2009 6:18:54 PM
Author: beebrisk

Date: 2/25/2009 2:34:05 PM
Author: zhuzhu
beebrisk,

Do you mind me asking if you have had or have teenage children of your own? I am just curious as to if your strong belief is theoretical in nature, or if you had a success story of your own based on your preferred parenting style.

Funny really, that in light of the many ''strong beliefs'' being thrown around this thread you ask only me for justification?

I find your question quite interesting really, but it''s one that brings up a whole host of issues, none of which I''ll go into here as it would lead us off the original topic.

Suffice to say, my opinion has been formed and forged in reality--not psycho-babble.

Nuff said.

How interesting that so many people without children have such strong convictions about parenting. As a parent, I find it ridiculous that people without children think that they can offer valuable parenting advice. It''s as silly as Catholic priests providing marriage counseling.

And as for people who work with children, I think they do a great service to society, but it''s still a different ballgame than parenting. For example, one of my best friends, who is a pre-K teacher, has frequently been critical of the parenting skills of other people we know in our community. She has always felt that she understands what it means to raise young children because of her job, and has sometimes spoken in a condescending manner to parents that she feels are subpar. Recently, however, she had her first child. She has confided to me how completely overwhelmed and stunned she is by motherhood. She would always say that she takes care of young kids all day, so she knows it isn''t that hard, but she just told me that now that she understands the 24/7 demands of parenting, she has a completely different attitude towards those parents that she judged before.

So basically, I feel that unless you are a parent, your opinions on parenting don''t hold as much water.

Hey everyone, I just wanted to respond to my own post, which was a specific reply to zhuzhu''s and beebrisk''s, which was discussing whether any of us on here were coming from a parent''s position. I''m not trying to say that the opinions of teachers or non-parents don''t count, but I do believe that there is a profound understanding of parenting that only comes with being a parent. I just feel that until you are a parent, you cannot really understand how the dynamic between you & your own child will work, and just how deep and sacred the relationship can be - there really is no comparison to any other type of relationship I''ve experienced. And, I will add that my son is still a little guy, but just a few years of parenting have had such a profound affect on my relationship with him, myself and the rest of the world. So, no disrespect meant to the opinions of others, but I still do feel that until your "in the club" and standing in a parent''s shoes, it''s hard to judge what you would do in those particular circumstances.

I also have a question for Beebrisk regarding her assertion that her opinions are based in reailty - are you suggesting that my experience or zhuzhu''s are not based in reality? How could they not be if they are indeed true and real? Could you share with us what your "reality " is so that we can understand where you are coming from? I am asking because I didn''t understand your answer to her question - I see a lot of defensive posturing, and insult-hurling (why is an intelligently-phrased question accused of being "psycho-babble"? Did you not understand the question?), but no explanations as to what your reality is and why you feel the way you do. You still haven''t let us know if you''re speaking from the position of a teenager, parent, minister, etc., because any thinking person would realize that the "realities" of those people would all be very different. I am interested in hearing more about your perspective so that I can understand where you''re coming from.

 

[Haven]

vespergirl--I completely understand what you''re saying, and I certainly didn''t feel disrespected by your post. I get that I don''t "get" it yet.

Hopefully DH and I will be able to have kids soon and then we can join the club.

 

[vespergirl]

Date: 2/25/2009 10:14:44 PM
Author: purrfectpear
My son is 25 now and I began giving him the condom talk when he was 11 and I kept it up. I told him when he had sex was up to him, but if and when that occurred, a condom would be used. I also told him that if he chose to ignore that advice and some girl became pregnant there would be NO help from me. None. Zip. Nada. He would be the one paying child support for the next 18 years, and further I would see to it that he paid that support even if he made minimum wage. Period.

I don''t know if my frank talk took all the fun and mystery out of it (I know he was uncomfortable with the idea that mommy could discuss sex), or if he just had good common sense. I do know that he didn''t consummate anything until he was out of high school and that there are no unplanned pregnancies yet.

IMO, that''s successful parenting.

PP, I totally agree with your viewpoint. My son is not at that age yet, but I do intend to have frank discussions with him on sex and birth control starting at the middle school age. I remember that my steady boyfriend in college, who I was with for several years, had a mother who was very frank with both of us about using condoms, and wanted to know if I was on BC pills (I was). Neither of us were offended when she asked (though my boyfriend was definitely embarrassed) but she wanted to make sure that we were protecting ourselves and each other, and I have a lot of respect for that.

My husband is from a very conservative Southern family, so it''s a little harder for him to talk openly about sex without being embarrassed. I was teasing him about it, and I''ll never forget that when our son was only 2 weeks old, he took him out of the crib and gave him the whole speech about sex, reproduction, and birth control. Obviously the baby didn''t corner him with any tough questions Then, my husband breathed a sigh of relief, said, "Well, I''m glad that''s out of the way" and felt satisfied that he had fulfilled that parental obligation. I think I know that I''ll be the one initiating the real talk with our son when he''s old enough to understand it