Blue Lab Grown Diamonds- boron?

[elle_chris]

Have we established this as fact? Has anyone here seen a GIA graded LG diamond with what we're referring to as "Blue Nuance"



This is exactly why I will always ask to see the lab report- and also why a simple post on a blog claiming a stone is graded D by GIA showing Blue Nuance ( or other claims regarding grade, etc) is "hearsay" in a discussion like this..who knows what it is.....

The report number is listed in the post - 2406792103

GIA graded it a D. The potential buyer saw it in person and said it had Blue nuance so they didn't buy it.

eta: I also haven't seen GIA mention it on any of their reports, but we all know it exists with many HPHT stones.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Found it!!


If someone came to PS with a question like this, wouldn't we question the video?
How was it taken....was the guy wearing a blue shirt?? We really can't see color well......
It looks like a larger stone than 1.40ct.
Please understand my skepticism- as we're all clear that dealers are saying things we can't verify.
Here's the GIA

GIA - Report Check

www.gia.edu

I have a stone that's clearly blue nuance- I will submit it to GIA next week to see what they say...

 

[elle_chris]

Found it!!


If someone came to PS with a question like this, wouldn't we question the video?
How was it taken....was the guy wearing a blue shirt?? We really can't see color well......
It looks like a larger stone than 1.40ct.
Please understand my skepticism- as we're all clear that dealers are saying things we can't verify.
Here's the GIA

GIA - Report Check

www.gia.edu

I have a stone that's clearly blue nuance- I will submit it to GIA next week to see what they say...

He saw the stone in person.

 

[Rockdiamond]

A lot of what I do is kind of like detective work. I scour the web, and have been doing so for about 20 years, learning about what people are doing in this business.
I don't know who wrote these posts...but they really do raise questions.
Based on the posts: the stone was in India.....and the buyer was not happy with the video- the buyer is reluctant...Indian cutters are not making it easy....they don't send stones without some commitment. Something sounds off.....
And unless the guy or girl holding the stone has teeny tiny hands, it really looks like a larger stone than 1.40cts.....

Again- this could all be on the up and up. But it could also be based on deception somewhere......
Let's be clear- if a PS member came here showing a stone and a corresponding GIA report, it would be a totally different story.
But I would not feel comfortable- as a professional, accepting that GIA has graded blue nuance stones without noting it based on the Reddit posts.

 

[elle_chris]

I give up.

Anyway-
Since so many here send stones to GIA and probably have relationships with someone there, can't you just email or call and ask?

 

[DejaWiz]

I give up.

Anyway-
Since so many here send stones to GIA and probably have relationships with someone there, can't you just email or call and ask?

I think sending the LGD(s) to GIA for grading will be more telling.

 

[Rockdiamond]

I give up.

Anyway-
Since so many here send stones to GIA and probably have relationships with someone there, can't you just email or call and ask?

About getting someone at GIA to answer this.....I don't see that happening.....
About giving up... I hope you don't....but I also encourage critical thinking on these issues

I think sending the LGD(s) to GIA for grading will be more telling.

Short of having an actual stone and GIA report here in my hands- or in the hands of someone actually posting here...that would seem to be the only way.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

People can we please change the terminology to tint.
Nuance is not a word that has any application to diamonds or gemology.
A diamond with any faint color is said to be tinted.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Nuance is not a word that has any application to diamonds or gemology

I agree “Blue Nuance” has no gemological validity. But IGIs use of of the term is at least better than not noting it.
im pretty sure GIA won’t use the term. Based on what I’ve seen- I don’t think the stones look like actual faint blue natural diamonds.
Who knows that they’ll do…. This is so interesting!!!!!

 

[elle_chris]

I'm not sure even IGI is consistent in how it reports the blue nuance/tinge/whatnot.

I don't remember where the top report is from or how I got it, but the bottom was posted in an FB group.
I edited out the report numbers.

Notice how on the top report IGI calls it Blue Nuance, but on the bottom they just say "Faint Blue". Both stones are a G color.

 

[Rockdiamond]

That's what I'm talking about!!!
You're becoming a "diamond detective

 

[DejaWiz]

Faint Blue/Blue Nuance was covered a little earlier in the thread.

Blue Lab Grown Diamonds- boron?

Hi All! Continuing the discussion about Blue Lab Grown Diamonds: I had an interesting visit yesterday- from a dealer of Lab Grown Diamonds. We've purchased a bunch of colorless rounds from the guy. I believe him to be trustworthy in regards to the goods he carries..... Yesterday he mentioned he...

www.pricescope.com

 

[Rockdiamond]

This is interesting. Thanks for sharing. Would you know how they make pink colors?

In looking back over the thread, I realized we never answered this question...
Comparatively, turning a diamond blue is far more straightforward...traditionally, it's been irradiation. Turning a diamond pink is a more complex answer-
I have heard of "As Grown" pink diamonds.
This definitely deserves its own thread.

 

[elle_chris]

Faint Blue/Blue Nuance was covered a little earlier in the thread.

Blue Lab Grown Diamonds- boron?

Hi All! Continuing the discussion about Blue Lab Grown Diamonds: I had an interesting visit yesterday- from a dealer of Lab Grown Diamonds. We've purchased a bunch of colorless rounds from the guy. I believe him to be trustworthy in regards to the goods he carries..... Yesterday he mentioned he...

www.pricescope.com

Yeah you're right. Just in response to not calling it Blue nuance.
I have no idea what to call it and it appears neither do the labs...

 

[DejaWiz]

Yeah you're right. Just in response to not calling it Blue nuance.
I have no idea what to call it and it appears neither do the labs...

Right?
I'm gonna start calling it "Bluance"

 

[aisa901]

Right?
I'm gonna start calling it "Bluance"

 

[Rockdiamond]

Better late than never
I just submitted the stone on the left for a GIA Diamond Dossier.... let's see what they say....

 

[Rockdiamond]

Right?
I'm gonna start calling it "Bluance"

Do I smell a Bluemance? ( the newest version of Bromance) People will talk Deja sweetie

 

[DejaWiz]

Do I smell a Bluemance? ( the newest version of Bromance) People will talk Deja sweetie

Talk is cheap, so let them talk!
...and these diamonds have a perfect song for their first dance:

 

[elle_chris]

So here goes:

I found the actual article (a 16 page PDF file) that GIA refers to when talking about HPHT diamonds. It' called:
"NEAR-COLORLESS HPHT SYNTHETIC DIAMONDS FROM AOTC GROUP" dated 2014.
by Ulrika F.S. D’Haenens-Johansson, Kyaw Soe Moe, Paul Johnson, Shun Yan Wong, Ren Lu, and Wuyi W
(Ulrika F.S D' Haenens-Johansson is a scientist at GIA. Her exact title is Senior Manager, Diamond Research at GIA. So yeah, I'd believe what she says.)

Here's an excerpt from the article:

"AOTC’s faceted HPHT synthetic diamonds can be purchased through their company website (by members of the jewelry trade only) or through D.NEA, an online retail operation that sells their synthetics, both loose and in jewelry pieces.

The products retail with full disclosure of their laboratory origin, and samples weighing more than 0.30 ct bear the laser inscription “AOTC-created” (D.NEA, 2014a).
Although most of its production is focused on fancy-color yellow and blue HPHT synthetics, AOTC also grows near-colorless (labeled “white”) synthetic diamonds using BARS- and toroid-press technologies.
The company’s yellow HPHT synthetic diamonds, are sold in sizes up to 3 ct; however, the blue and “white” synthetics weigh no more than 1.5 ct (D.NEA, 2014b).
Since these products are only available in faceted form, the as grown “rough” specimens are considerably larger.
D.NEA (2014c) reports selling its “white” synthetic diamonds at prices “15–40% less than comparable mined diamonds.”
Currently, AOTC is the dominant producer of near-colorless HPHT synthetic diamonds for the gem trade."

D.NEA used to post here. They were the ones that said their HPHT's were grown Blue. I'm purposely posting this excerpt because there was doubt cast on who D.NEA was. Well, they weren't just some random BS company, so there's no reason to doubt what @EEFranklin from D.NEA used to post here.
The above also mentions "as grown rough" which to me means, no post growth treatment.

The article then goes on to say:

Type IIb synthetic diamonds with colors ranging from pale blue to opaque blue-black can also be created by doping the material with boron.
To do this in a controlled manner, the nitrogen concentration is simultaneously reduced by adding nitrogen getters.
The blue color arises from uncompensated boron, or the amount of boron in excess of the substitutional nitrogen concentration at the atomic ppm level".

I am not a scientist so this is way over my head. But again, their HPHT's were grown Blue using boron.

Here's the full article if anyone's interested:

​

 

[Rockdiamond]

Interesting!!
I would welcome an open discussion with @EEFranklin....but I don't think they are still posting here.
The site referred to in their signature doesn't really have anything definitive on this subject.
There are statements regarding price on the site that are inaccurate ( claims that LG Blue diamonds are 1/10 the price of naturals...more like 1/30th currently)- maybe it has not been updated.

I'm also not a scientist ( I just play one on tv
But this chart did seem to give a bit of insight.


Aside from a single .30ct Fancy Light Blue, all the other colors are faint, or very light ( not heavily saturated). Sounds like "Blue Nuance"
And while we can all agree that Nitrogen causes yellow in a diamond and boron causes blue...there simply aren't enough examples on the market that provide a reliable sample.
If "born doping" was possible, as a "controllable effect" then we'd see all kinds of Fancy Light Blue, and Fancy BLue that looked like Natural Blue Diamonds.....I have not seen them - of course, that doesn't mean they do not exist- but I have been looking- and hard.
Same for yellow......the vast majority of lab grown yellow diamonds I've seen are brassy- orangy.
I'm more of a "seat of the pants" sort of guy.
I need to see things to believe they exist......
We are still waiting on GIA for the faint blue stone we submitted.

 

[aisa901]

I found this company on facebook called Synteclab, they have a few fancy yellows, light blues, vivid blues, and a replica Oppenheimer Blue HPHT posted on their facebook page and instagram.

I started chatting with them a few weeks ago over messenger. I asked specifically about the vivid blues and how they make them so blue. They said "blue stones 100% boron", "100% boron without growth treatment". They also sent me a video of a fancy deep green yellow stone (claimed "as grown" HPHT), and a box containing stones that were red, yellow and orange, and claimed they were all HPHT.

Contact number seems to be a Isreali country code if anyone is interested in calling them up!

SyntecLab | Delivering the Future of Laboratory Grown Diamonds

SyntecLab HPHT Lab-Grown Diamonds

synteclab.com

 

[elle_chris]

Maybe there aren't any light blue HPHT because there's not enough of a market for them.
Could very well be they make more $$$ producing colorless.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Maybe there aren't any light blue HPHT because there's not enough of a market for them.
Could very well be they make more $$$ producing colorless.

Interesting observation...and it's part of the immensely challenging aspects in comparing lab grown to mined diamonds.
On the one hand, we could point to Natural Blue diamonds and how they relate to colorless. Exponentially more costly and rare.
That would seem to indicate that there's a lot of demand.
But- for growers who want to sell the largest amount of goods, colorless is clearly the way to go. The vast majority of diamond buyers want a colorless diamond.
So, I believe that that's what most try to grow.
My belief is that the majority of blue Lab grown diamonds on the market were failed attempts at colorless stones, which are then irradiated.

But there are also a small number of growers who are trying to induce color.
There's really no way to find out hard figures...which is why I am using real lie experiences to attempt to extrapolate.

 

[Rockdiamond]

They also sent me a video of a fancy deep green yellow stone (claimed "as grown" HPHT), and a box containing stones that were red, yellow and orange, and claimed they were all HPHT.

I do not have any reason to doubt they are as grown.
I have seen plenty of stones, claimed to be HPHT as grown. Deep dark colors, orangy brassy yellows..similar to the pictures you posted. They do not look like natural fancy colored diamonds to my eye.
Mind you, the dealer/growers making these claims but the vast majority have no lab reports.....let's just say I'm more skeptical working with dealer/growers than I am here

 

[elle_chris]

I do not have any reason to doubt they are as grown.
I have seen plenty of stones, claimed to be HPHT as grown. Deep dark colors, orangy brassy yellows..similar to the pictures you posted. They do not look like natural fancy colored diamonds to my eye.
Mind you, the dealer/growers making these claims but the vast majority have no lab reports.....let's just say I'm more skeptical working with dealer/growers than I am here

@Rockdiamond I feel like we're going in circles here...

Earlier in this thread you had said that you believe Blue labs get a post growth treatment for the color.
So my ONLY point in the entire thread was that HPHT blues (not CVD) are as grown as is.

I don't disagree that a decade ago companies were figuring out how to make colorless diamonds so a lot of Blues we see were most likely failed experiments so to speak.
But I also think that since the result was a Blue diamond, they probably decided to market them as fancies. Some were no doubt very faint, hence the term "blue nuance", others weren't and sold as fancy Blue.
So again, my only point in this entire thread is HPHT Blues are grown as is.

Whether they're a failed experiment or not, they're still being sold though. In fact, if you look through Blues on Brilliant Earths site, you'll see reports going back to 2016 for the Blues. That also shows just how weak the market for them is.

But what's interesting is, the oldest reports are for the true blues, not the teal looking stones. So my spidey sense tells me those are as grown HPHT's, not CVDs.

eta: Of course this is all speculation on my part.

 

[Rockdiamond]

DING DING DING DING!!
We have an answer.

According to GIA, this Lab Grown Diamond is Fancy Light Blue, with no evidence of post-growth treatment

 

[DejaWiz]

DING DING DING DING!!
We have an answer.

According to GIA, this Lab Grown Diamond is Fancy Light Blue, with no evidence of post-growth treatment

Cool. Did GIA notate if it was a Type IIb?

 

[Rockdiamond]

Cool. Did GIA notate if it was a Type IIb?

Here's the comment I can see from the preliminary report....

Additional growth remnants are not shown. This is a man-made diamond produced by HPHT (High Pressure High Temperature) growth process. No evidence of treatment was detected.

 

[elle_chris]

Soo then.. this answers the original question that started this thread...