Blue Lab Grown Diamonds- boron?

[aisa901]

HPHT diamond growth occurs within massive pressure cookers. Small diamond seeds are placed into a growth cell and graphite is inserted on top of the diamond seeds. The pressure cooker is heated to 1500°C and pressurized to approximately 70,000 times the pressure at sea level.

Pressure cooker certainly seems to exclude them being exposed to the atmosphere....Again, I'm not a scientist......but...

Maybe someone with a better understanding of physics/chem can confirm this, but in order to have high enough pressure to create a HPHT diamond, I don't think you could do this in a vacuum?

Pressure is a result of collisions of gas molecules/atoms with the walls of a container, so the fewer molecules/atoms present the lower the pressure. ... When you create a vacuum, the vacuum pump removes a large amount of the gas from the container, so the pressure of the gas falls to a very low value.

I've never seen or read a single source talk about a vacuums when explaining the HPTP process, the term vacuum is always used to explain the CVD process.

I will again refer to the GIA page I linked previously:

"In greater detail, HPHT diamond growth takes place in a small capsule inside an apparatus capable of generating very high pressures"...
(IGI uses the term "staggering pressure")

Vs.

"In greater detail, CVD diamond growth takes place inside a vacuum chamber filled with a hydrogen and carbon-containing gas, such as methane."

This would mean growers are respecting patents....seems unlikely.
With diamonds being grown all over the world, exactly which patents apply in both the US and India ( for example) to say nothing of China and Russia.
Both statements seem more promotional than factual.

I don't know enough about this to comment, maybe @Ada Diamonds CEO can enlighten us about claim?

THis would mean that growers are keeping this secret from their customers... This makes zero sense. I've had in depth discussions with major growers. According to real market info, the majority of blue lab grown diamonds are irradiated - and I believe it's well over 99%
It seems to me that if someone was growing Fancy Vivid Blue diamonds with no post growth treatment, they'd be shouting about it. GIA was making a big deal about a single stone.....

I am so very curious about this.....

My point exactly, why would they not just come clean with this and call a spade a spade? Whether it's doping with boron or irradiating post growth, it's still tampering with the diamond. I could be wrong, but if I am, I've seen at least 30 different online sources perpetuating this boron during growth phase lie.

I only provided the GIA links to quickly show one reputable (?) source of info that helped inform my opinion/theory/ or "hypothesis" if you will

However, I would agree that some CVD diamonds are irradiated post growth to be blue, but this is openly talked about on the world wide web.

And maybe both things are true, blue boron containing diamonds exist, and blue irradiated diamonds exist?

 

[aisa901]

But the guy selling these blue tinged stones... and the guy telling me about having to irradiate stones to fill an order......my gut tells me they're both telling the truth.

Is your guy selling CVD or HPHT stones?

When it comes to controlled use of Boron to produce LG BLue diamonds......I just don't think we're there yet.

I would have to agree, based on all the info I've reviewed, it seems that the faint blue nuanced stones are a result of not enough control over the process. They are not made blue purposefully, they are the result of an imperfect procedure to achieve a colorless diamond.

Assuming boron is being added, I wonder if it's easier to make a fancy blue than a colorless stone, I've posted the literature previously in a different thread suggesting that fancy blues contain high amounts of boron, you could just pump loads of boron into the chamber, vs. trying to titrate just the right amount of boron to get a colorless stone without going overboard?

So much food for thought!!

 

[aisa901]

I purchased an HPHT Blue from Brilliant Earth two years ago.
Specifically asked about post growth treatment for color and was told "none" for the Blues I asked about - that they were grown Blue.

Are you saying vendors are lying? Because if 99% of Blues are irradiated, then someone, somewhere is lying to their customers.

Exactly!! And the lie is being perpetuated over and over.

 

[Karl_K]

And maybe both things are true, blue boron containing diamonds exist, and blue irradiated diamonds exist?

yes both exist on the market but the nuked cvd are taking over the market from the hpht boron blues.

 

[elle_chris]

HPHT boron blues have been made for years.
How big is it?

it's .41ct so small. Pic of it in a thread I started here last last

Finally want to set my Blue HPHT

So after having my small Blue HPHT loose for a few years, I finally decided on a setting (I think?) I have a colorless pear set into a pendant I had made for my mom years ago. She no longer wears it and gave it back to me. I will never wear this pendant so wasn't sure what to do. But now I'm...

www.pricescope.com

 

[Karl_K]

My point exactly, why would they not just come clean with this and call a spade a spade? Whether it's doping with boron or irradiating post growth, it's still tampering with the diamond.

mmd is a manufactured product adding boron is no different than coloring the plastic to make you phone or tv different colors.
Nuking them could be considered similar adding tint to eyeglasses/sunglasses.

 

[Karl_K]

it's .41ct so small. Pic of it in a thread I started here last last

Finally want to set my Blue HPHT

So after having my small Blue HPHT loose for a few years, I finally decided on a setting (I think?) I have a colorless pear set into a pendant I had made for my mom years ago. She no longer wears it and gave it back to me. I will never wear this pendant so wasn't sure what to do. But now I'm...

www.pricescope.com

purdy!!! I would eat my hat if it was not a hpht boron blue.

 

[Rockdiamond]

My point exactly, why would they not just come clean with this and call a spade a spade? Whether it's doping with boron or irradiating post growth, it's still tampering with the diamond. I could be wrong, but if I am, I've seen at least 30 different online sources perpetuating this boron during growth phase lie.

First- I apologize if the discussion brings things into focus that are .....uncomfortable.
I do not want to accuse anyone of lying.
But we can't not have this discussion because it may expose things that are uncomfortable.
Heck, maybe I'm totally wrong here and boron is the simplest thing in the world to use on CVD or HPHT diamonds.

Is your guy selling CVD or HPHT stones?

The stones in question are HPHT.

Maybe...just maybe .....this highlights an important difference from the Earth Mined diamond business.
For one thing- all of a sudden everyone is OK with non GIA reports ( including me)
If this was a discussion about EM diamonds, we'd never be so comfortable with non GIA reports
Also- many of us ( again, including me) who would not want to carry, or buy treated Earth Mined Diamonds are fine with LG stones which have been treated in some manner.

SO maybe ( again, not pointing any fingers at any specific company) some sellers are happy with the confusion......

yes both exist on the market but the nuked cvd are taking over the market from the hpht boron blues.

Sorry old buddy- but I think you're going to have to eat that hat.
It makes ZERO sense that boron would be able to be used, but instead, let's nuke them.
Plus- why don't we see a range of colors in of blue stones? Where are the Fancy Light Blue stones?

 

[Rockdiamond]

I would have to agree, based on all the info I've reviewed, it seems that the faint blue nuanced stones are a result of not enough control over the process. They are not made blue purposefully, they are the result of an imperfect procedure to achieve a colorless diamond.

THIS!!
To repeat- I was sold this stone- at a discount- because the grower was trying to make D colors, and failed. I think the grower is kinda shortsighted- he should charge more for blue tinted stones...but hey, what do I know......

 

[Karl_K]

Sorry old buddy- but I think you're going to have to eat that hat.

Stop trying to scare her!
HTHP boron blues of that size were the market in blues in that time frame.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Stop trying to scare her!
HTHP boron blues of that size were the market in blues in that time frame.

I'm not trying to scare anyone.
Can you please show us proof?

 

[DejaWiz]

THIS!!
To repeat- I was sold this stone- at a discount- because the grower was trying to make D colors, and failed. I think the grower is kinda shortsighted- he should charge more for blue tinted stones...but hey, what do I know......

I feel this comes down to two things:

1. The grower may have a reputation for supplying good quality colorless rough with no PGT.
2. When they start tinkering with their formulations resulting in a blue twinge, it is not as desirable and graded/marked as a "nuance" within the standard color scale rather than a "purposeful result" in the fancy color scale.

 

[Karl_K]

I'm not trying to scare anyone.
Can you please show us proof?

Maybe there is still some stuff online but its mainly based on my own research during that time period.

edit: will GIA do?

Observations on HPHT-Grown Synthetic Diamonds: A Review | Gems & Gemology

Summarizes statistical data and distinctive features of several thousand gem-quality HPHT synthetic diamonds examined by GIA from 2007 through 2016.

www.gia.edu

 

[Rockdiamond]

Thanks Karl! Still, reality does not seem to match ....
From the GIA article
Of this sample set, 12% were colorless to near-colorless (D–J), 12% blue, 13% yellow, 4% pink to red, and 54% yellowish orange to orangy yellow (e.g., figure 1). The remaining 5% showed other colors, including green-yellow and brown-orange. This set represents both as-grown and treated colors. While some samples were purchased by GIA on the market or from manufacturers, or were loaned or donated to us by manufacturers for study purposes, most were submitted to GIA in polished form for identification or grading reports. To the best of our knowledge, this sample set is representative of the gem-quality HPHT synthetic material available in the trade.

I can't explain why...even though the article claims it's representative, this is not the way the market shakes out. No way are 13% of HPHT stones Yellow. And have you ever seen a red one???
Maybe the bulk of LG's were sent to other labs in 2017.
But it does seem to indicate the presence of non post growth blue diamonds on the market.
Yet reality ( based on the NYC market) seems to contradict the article.
I can't explain it.....

 

[elle_chris]

Back when this forum was first created, EEFranklin from D.NEA posted this in response to a question about irradiating:
"While I may not have a definite answer, I wanted to chime in. In all of our lab-grown blue, yellow and white diamonds, the color is as-grown and permanent. They do not undergo any irradiation or post-growth treatment."

thread: https://www.pricescope.com/communit...hancement-irradiating-of-diamonds-gems.91142/

 

[Rockdiamond]

Back when this forum was first created, EEFranklin from D.NEA posted this in response to a question about irradiating:
"While I may not have a definite answer, I wanted to chime in. In all of our lab-grown blue, yellow and white diamonds, the color is as-grown and permanent. They do not undergo any irradiation or post-growth treatment."

thread: https://www.pricescope.com/communit...hancement-irradiating-of-diamonds-gems.91142/

I know nothing about the company in question.....I'd be thrilled to see some of what they claim to have done in terms of Yellow Lab Growns, ( for example).....but looking at their site, they make a lot of claims.....yet they have no diamonds to sell.
Additionally....they do seem to be using sales techniques that are questionable.....such as promoting the ( false) idea that there's an environmental advantage to LGD's

If the gentleman is still around and wishes to contribute, I'd love to hear what he has to say....but the site doesn't answer any questions.....

 

[Rockdiamond]

@elle_chris ....
I apologize that this discussion seems to put doubt on your diamond- totally not my intention!!
Maybe I'm mistaken and HPHT Blue diamonds are commonly manufactured....
But at this point, I'm still skeptical.

 

[evergreen]

I know nothing about the company in question.....I'd be thrilled to see some of what they claim to have done in terms of Yellow Lab Growns, ( for example).....but looking at their site, they make a lot of claims.....yet they have no diamonds to sell.
Additionally....they do seem to be using sales techniques that are questionable.....such as promoting the ( false) idea that there's an environmental advantage to LGD's

If the gentleman is still around and wishes to contribute, I'd love to hear what he has to say....but the site doesn't answer any questions.....

I never ordered from them, but they were the only LGD manufacturer I browsed inventory of, from about -- guessing here -- 2014-2016. (Then I had a kid and had to get out of recreational jewelry-ing, ha!). The diamonds had good still photos and certs - can't remember the lab, though I know they were restricted because of the lab origin. They were selling a large number of vivid yellow to vivid orangey-yellow diamonds, then a smattering of more experimental ones. I still remember a VERY cool one that was mostly blue but with some clear and yellow zoning, so that the overall appearance was green. Some orangey-pinks, a bunch of boron blues, but mostly inexpensive yellows and oranges up to about 1ct. I'm pretty sure they are legit - they were recommended on PS many times in the very niche LGD market at the time for couples who wanted a lab-grown stone or a blue diamond as an engagement stone.

 

[Wink]

Multiple sources have told me it's due to temperature variation during production.

I know virtually nothing about the cause of the colors that this thread is discussing. I do find the above comment by @Rockdiamond to be very interesting because of my long ago association with a CZ cutter in Thailand. (Interlap)

The owner of the company told me that for larger CZ, the best quality rough in the world came from Ceres Corporation who produced them with electricity generated by a turbine located in Niagara Falls. This allowed Ceres Corporation to keep the temperature of the molten solution from which the CZ was crystallizing to remain absolutely stable during the crystallization process. He stated that the Russian and Chinese production was influenced by temperature fluctuations as the cost of maintaining a stable temperature was too high.

This leads me to believe that those telling @Rockdiamond that the color variations may be due to temperature variations could well be on to something. It will be interesting to see what the lab reports have to say.

Wink

 

[Ibrakeforpossums]

evergreen, I vaguely remember a website like that but can't think who it was. It looked like huge fun, the oranges!
If anyone guesses who this is/was, please post.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Unfortunately IGI isn’t going to give a definitive answer regarding Boron.
Maybe boron is present in the atmosphere and it’s not possible to entirely eliminate- yet also not possible to control???

 

[Rockdiamond]

This leads me to believe that those telling @Rockdiamond that the color variations may be due to temperature variations could well be on to something. It will be interesting to see what the lab reports have to say.

Hey Wink!!
There must be a reason all LGDs aren’t D/IF.
Stands to reason that the explanation of temperature variation, at least seems plausible

 

[Wink]

There must be a reason all LGDs aren’t D/IF.

Too bad they aren't. If they were all D/IF and the producers kept trying to tie the price to RAP the market for Lab Grown would be very small.

The price for Lab Grown has dropped dramatically in recent years, and I think there will be further price reductions in the coming years. I think the major reductions have been great for business, and I expect that the remaining reductions coming will only further increase the demand.

 

[Rockdiamond]

The price for Lab Grown has dropped dramatically in recent years

Undoubtedly true my friend....but the key word there is recent.
This year has not seen broad based decreases- in fact, prices have actually ticked up for certain articles......
IN terms of years to come....your guess is as good as anyone else's....but the only sure thing is uncertainty as to what the prices will be in the coming years...
Plus- I'm sure you won't be searching for the cheapest stones.....we certainly are more interested in the best ones, which are rarely the cheapest...I feel sure we share that apsect in common....

 

[Wink]

Undoubtedly true my friend....but the key word there is recent.
This year has not seen broad based decreases- in fact, prices have actually ticked up for certain articles......
IN terms of years to come....your guess is as good as anyone else's....but the only sure thing is uncertainty as to what the prices will be in the coming years...
Plus- I'm sure you won't be searching for the cheapest stones.....we certainly are more interested in the best ones, which are rarely the cheapest...I feel sure we share that apsect in common....

LOL, this year is hardly typical for much of anything. Covid is finished, no, wait, Covid is back.

About the only thing typical that comes to mind is the gas companies have yet again made up a reason to jack the prices up dramatically for the summer. Darn their hides!

Wink

 

[oncrutchesrightnow]

LOL, this year is hardly typical for much of anything. Covid is finished, no, wait, Covid is back.

About the only thing typical that comes to mind is the gas companies have yet again made up a reason to jack the prices up dramatically for the summer. Darn their hides!

Wink

Boron gas companies?

Freudian slip for sure.

 

[petrock<3]

Just adding eye candy to the discussion, I considered purchasing this pear due to the faint blue tint. The cert says faint blue. Thought it was really pretty and interesting.

 

[DejaWiz]

Just adding eye candy to the discussion, I considered purchasing this pear due to the faint blue tint. The cert says faint blue. Thought it was really pretty and interesting.

That's beautiful - seems like a real...hidden gem!

 

[Rockdiamond]

UPDATE,
Yes, I've gotten more inside info.
Boron is indeed being used- yet still, it's not a simple answer.

I'll be better informed next week after a meeting I have scheduled....

One interesting tidbit I've learned....
China is snatching up a large percentage of certain sorts of LG's ( specifically, in this case, Fancy Colors) and it['s affecting what we see here, in the west.....the market there is apparently massive.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Update....
I've been seeing more "Blue Nuance" stones....
Today, the grower told me they have to take steps to ensure that boron is excluded to avoid the blue.
That is to say, it exists in the atmosphere.
But other than the faint nuance...the next lightest blue Lab Grown Diamonds are quite intense in color...Fancy Light Blue ( for example) is not possible....