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Are we too elitist & doing 99% of newbies a disservice?

Are good at helping enough newbie buyers?


  • Total voters
    102

sledge

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Apr 23, 2018
Messages
4,441
I really don’t recall anyone coming back and saying the diamond we helped choose was terrible and it’s back to the drawing board.

So I say the results speak for themselves.
I certainly agree we are effective at finding beautiful stones but that doesn't help the other Reddit poster to feel any less pissed off.

The question becomes why and if his rants are valid. We should always self reflect and be open to the idea of change and growth, even if sharply brought to our attention.

When I try to read between the lines what I really hear is he wanted to buy a stone, or already did and then came here for validation. Or worse yet, the girl he gave it too came here for validation of either beauty or her concerns about something. Either way, the desired validation was not given and instead was told return or don't buy because of HCA score of X, etc, etc.

To help validate his point he refers to the fact that people in the trade aren't aware of the HCA. I would agree most aren't. Also I would agree most scoff at it as well and consider it an inferior method. I don't agree they are right. And my experience with local "professionals" is they have very little ability to provide a technical assessment of any real magnitude and most don't really understand cut or proportions at all. So it's no surprise that maybe that poster felt the way he did.

All that said, I'm left with the impression he's angry but I'm not sure how I can do much to help him.

A second alternative is Leon Mege is posting under a different screen name, lol.

 

whitewave

Ideal_Rock
Premium
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Feb 29, 2012
Messages
9,856
I certainly agree we are effective at finding beautiful stones but that doesn't help the other Reddit poster to feel any less pissed off.

A second alternative is Leon Mege is posting under a different screen name, lol.


OMG!!! :lol::lol::mrgreen:
Yes, I ran into his rant a while ago. It’s certainly an entertaining read.
 

sledge

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Apr 23, 2018
Messages
4,441
OMG!!! :lol::lol::mrgreen:
Yes, I ran into his rant a while ago. It’s certainly an entertaining read.
That one in particular was about the HCA. This is his bash on PS:


And his bash on ASET:


I'm not sure why he posts such things. It seems detrimental to business. I hope and pray PS never turns into that type of a place. If so, peace out, lol.
 

OoohShiny

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Apr 25, 2014
Messages
7,362
I always take the view that good stuff doesn't need 'the hard sell', or to denigrate competitor stuff!

LM clearly does extremely high quality work, and he seems able to command whatever price he wishes to ask, so I'm not sure what the reasons might be for any negativity towards PS.

Perhaps it's just the case that PS readers ask more annoying questions in the search for quality :D lol


As a newbie to diamonds, and having done (sadly) only limited shopping in person, it is very hard to question an experienced vendor of diamonds and jewellery about the quality of their wares, and I am certain that most will be thinking 'oh, here's another smart-arse who has read some random internet page - and WTF is this coloured plastic cone thing??' :rolleyes: :lol:
 

Johnbt

Shiny_Rock
Premium
Joined
Mar 13, 2018
Messages
296
"even if sharply brought to our attention."

I don't mind sharply. I even like it, along with bluntly. Straight talk is good.

My problem with his post is that I couldn't understand it. It sounded like a bunch of mumbling to me. I think his head was too far up his butt to communicate clearly. :) He probably just needs to step away from the crack pipe for a little while.
 

Polished

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Feb 28, 2012
Messages
1,081
The advice here might be terrific but how do you address the values that a buyer seeking a diamond for another person might have. I know respect is given to the receiver - have you asked her, do you know her preferences etc? But I've read of instances where the receiver has said I wish he hadn't gone so high on colour and clarity and prioritized size instead. Then I've read the reverse, I don't want to hurt his feelings but I don't like the tint I can see in an "I" diamond. It would be good if somehow the message of upgrade policies to the receiver rather than the purchaser would be good.
 

arkieb1

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
May 11, 2012
Messages
9,574
The only part of the Reddit rant that seems accurate is the Cock in the Cockhead's name.... I'm wondering if he is an Indian Diamond dealer trying to discredit PS so they can sell more badly cut pieces of garbage to the unsuspecting public..... Same goes for Leon. Stupid is as Stupid does.....
 

MonkeysInk

Shiny_Rock
Premium
Joined
Mar 25, 2007
Messages
354
I don't think we're necessary any more elitist than any other specialty forum. I do think that sometimes we could do a better job of respecting budgets or preferences, but we're also not great about asking that up front. Creating the framework that another poster above suggested is a great way to gather the info that we need in order to best help. I think we should have a framework for vendor reviews, too - another forum I read does that and it's helpful for understanding communication styles, packaging, shipping times, etc.

When we were at the GIA event, I asked @Texas Leaguer, "How do I "buy with my eyes" if I can't see any good diamonds in person?" I live in Dallas and it's hard here...I can't imagine how hard it must be to see nice diamonds outside a large city. Given that's the advice we often give with fancy shapes, I can see how newbies would find that advice frustrating since it can be hard for us to quantify what to look for.

In an ideal world, there would be an inexpensive set of stones that someone could rent/buy similar to a GIA master set, but for cut quality, color, clarity, etc., so that we could see and touch in person. Barring that, I think PS could use a reference library of photos with consistent language, background, photo sizes, etc., that newbies could look at for the kinds of questions that we see repeatedly asked. Or maybe there's a list of reference posts that we could point people to, similar to the the ones on SMTB?
 

OoohShiny

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Apr 25, 2014
Messages
7,362
I don't think we're necessary any more elitist than any other specialty forum. I do think that sometimes we could do a better job of respecting budgets or preferences, but we're also not great about asking that up front. Creating the framework that another poster above suggested is a great way to gather the info that we need in order to best help. I think we should have a framework for vendor reviews, too - another forum I read does that and it's helpful for understanding communication styles, packaging, shipping times, etc.

When we were at the GIA event, I asked @Texas Leaguer, "How do I "buy with my eyes" if I can't see any good diamonds in person?" I live in Dallas and it's hard here...I can't imagine how hard it must be to see nice diamonds outside a large city. Given that's the advice we often give with fancy shapes, I can see how newbies would find that advice frustrating since it can be hard for us to quantify what to look for.

In an ideal world, there would be an inexpensive set of stones that someone could rent/buy similar to a GIA master set, but for cut quality, color, clarity, etc., so that we could see and touch in person. Barring that, I think PS could use a reference library of photos with consistent language, background, photo sizes, etc., that newbies could look at for the kinds of questions that we see repeatedly asked. Or maybe there's a list of reference posts that we could point people to, similar to the the ones on SMTB?
Lots of excellent points here! :))

What did Texas Leaguer say in reply? lol (That's exactly the question/issue I have!)

A cheap 'master set' would be awesome - that's exactly the sort of problem that MMDs could provide a solution for. I imagine some might get distracted and mount all of them in jewellery, though... :lol: lol

I think some more picture guidance / examples in the tutorial pages could be very useful!
 
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MonkeysInk

Shiny_Rock
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Joined
Mar 25, 2007
Messages
354
Lots of excellent points here! :))

What did Texas Leaguer say in reply? lol (That's exactly the question/issue I have!)

A cheap 'master set' would be awesome - that's exactly the sort of problem that MMDs could provide a solution for. I imagine some might get distracted and mount all of them in jewellery, though... :lol: lol

I think some more picture guidance / examples in the tutorial pages could be very useful!
We agreed that it was hard and never came to a good resolution - we were at the end of a long day, so probably not the right time to discuss hard questions.

If we organize a format for questions or a tutorial guide, I’d love to help.
 

sledge

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Apr 23, 2018
Messages
4,441
For tech savvy online vendors I foresee live video conferencing like Skype with high quality cameras and various lighting conditions preset to provide repeatable results from stone to stone but allow as much of a virtual examination as possible. It still won't capture everything but it may be better than how it's currently done.
 

Lessics

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Jan 6, 2019
Messages
347
For tech savvy online vendors I foresee live video conferencing like Skype with high quality cameras and various lighting conditions preset to provide repeatable results from stone to stone but allow as much of a virtual examination as possible. It still won't capture everything but it may be better than how it's currently done.
I love that idea!
 

OoohShiny

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Apr 25, 2014
Messages
7,362
For tech savvy online vendors I foresee live video conferencing like Skype with high quality cameras and various lighting conditions preset to provide repeatable results from stone to stone but allow as much of a virtual examination as possible. It still won't capture everything but it may be better than how it's currently done.
I believe @Wink already offers this service :)) although I am not sure if he's using a 4KHDRUHDOMGWOW camera :D lol
 

psadmin

Brilliant_Rock
Staff member
Premium
Joined
Apr 19, 2008
Messages
1,402
We agreed that it was hard and never came to a good resolution - we were at the end of a long day, so probably not the right time to discuss hard questions.

If we organize a format for questions or a tutorial guide, I’d love to help.
I would love to get ideas for a new format for our education.

Garry started a discussion for education here:

Please join us there and give us your thoughts.
 

Polyhex

Rough_Rock
Joined
Sep 18, 2003
Messages
56
I have thought a lot about whether to put my two cents in or not and finally decided to. I joined a defunct predecessor forum in 2001, where I was quite active from 2001-2003, and joined and lurked only on Pricescope since 2003. That's 16 years of lurking!!

I have quite a lot to thank Pricescope for, and there are some reasons why I lurked here for 16 years instead of my active status on the predecessor forum. I will first focus on my thank yous, and then the reason I did not contribute here.

THANK YOU: Pricescope has given me two great gifts, one indirectly and one directly. The indirect gift is that through LoupeTroop, I became aware of the magic of traditional and antique Middle Eastern jewelry and women's costume, and collecting has become a significant charitable endeavor that will be donated by the time of my death to regional and ethnographic museums. I have been able to save many culturally important pieces from the smelting pot and I will forever be grateful to Pricescope for this. Here is a 19th century Ottoman example from the collection:

IMG_4266.JPG

The direct gift from Pricescope has been the privilege to get exactly what I want in a diamond for an incredible price, which for me is a perfect old European cut, and face-up white but low color. Because of Pricescope, I knew it was possible to find a face-up white in a low color, because of Pricecope I knew that OECs were beautiful, because of Pricescope I bought a wonderful 1.9ct OEC in 2008 and because of Pricescope I bought a 5.7ct OEC this year through Alex Park which I was crazy/confident enough to have recut through Solstar Diamonds/Calvin Yuan to a 5.03ct N VS2 with a ideal OEC cut. Thank you Pricescope!

Screenshot_20190724-085235_Gallery_corrected (2).png

But to the question of why I was not active between 2003-now, when I was quite active on the predecessor forum in 2001-2003, yes it's partly because I had the sense that Pricescope is elitist. There is less accommodation or celebration for low budgets (in my view.) There are fewer JOTW examples that go to low value jewelry. Mined diamonds can be discussed on many forums, but man-made diamonds and simulants are confined to separate forums and cannot be posted in Show me the Bling or Rocky Talky,

In 2000, I started out with a lovely but tiny mid-century engagement ring with a .25ct center. I had simulants for fun and to get a sense of what I liked. Simulants did not displace my love for diamonds, they encouraged it... 18 years after I joined the first jewelry forum, I bought a 5+ ct diamond. Surely I am a success story for Pricescope in cultivating an educated consumer? But I did not post on Pricescope before I had the budget to afford a very large diamond, because I enjoyed small diamonds and simulants. I did not post because I did not feel supported by Pricescope in this.

Another issue that I think exists is counseling all newbies to pursue branded super-ideal cuts without exploring their personal preferences. At times, Pricescope contributors appear to view the choice as between a slightly smaller but better color/clarity super-ideal and a slightly larger but worse color/clarity super-ideal. That is not the end-all and be-all of choices... for the same price I paid for the 5.03 ideal OEC (including recut from orginal 5.7ct weight), I could have purchased a 2-3ct CBI according to current search engines. That is a big difference in visual impact!!

My suggestions for broadening the appeal of Pricescope would be:

  • Celebrate low budgets for both small diamonds and ceasing the segregation of simulants and man-made diamonds
  • Focus consumer education on determining visually what they prefer so that they do not receive 100% recommendations for super-ideal diamonds unless that's what they want

Thank you again for all you have given me!
 

Lessics

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Jan 6, 2019
Messages
347
@Polyhex Thank you for sharing your opinion!

Please please make a post about your 5 Carat OEC. I’m also toying with the idea to have a diamond recut into an ideal oec. Maybe you could share more about your journey through a post about your beautiful ring?
 

GoldenTouch

Rough_Rock
Joined
Nov 9, 2018
Messages
16
I have thought a lot about whether to put my two cents in or not and finally decided to. I joined a defunct predecessor forum in 2001, where I was quite active from 2001-2003, and joined and lurked only on Pricescope since 2003. That's 16 years of lurking!!

I have quite a lot to thank Pricescope for, and there are some reasons why I lurked here for 16 years instead of my active status on the predecessor forum. I will first focus on my thank yous, and then the reason I did not contribute here.

THANK YOU: Pricescope has given me two great gifts, one indirectly and one directly. The indirect gift is that through LoupeTroop, I became aware of the magic of traditional and antique Middle Eastern jewelry and women's costume, and collecting has become a significant charitable endeavor that will be donated by the time of my death to regional and ethnographic museums. I have been able to save many culturally important pieces from the smelting pot and I will forever be grateful to Pricescope for this. Here is a 19th century Ottoman example from the collection:

IMG_4266.JPG

The direct gift from Pricescope has been the privilege to get exactly what I want in a diamond for an incredible price, which for me is a perfect old European cut, and face-up white but low color. Because of Pricescope, I knew it was possible to find a face-up white in a low color, because of Pricecope I knew that OECs were beautiful, because of Pricescope I bought a wonderful 1.9ct OEC in 2008 and because of Pricescope I bought a 5.7ct OEC this year through Alex Park which I was crazy/confident enough to have recut through Solstar Diamonds/Calvin Yuan to a 5.03ct N VS2 with a ideal OEC cut. Thank you Pricescope!

Screenshot_20190724-085235_Gallery_corrected (2).png

But to the question of why I was not active between 2003-now, when I was quite active on the predecessor forum in 2001-2003, yes it's partly because I had the sense that Pricescope is elitist. There is less accommodation or celebration for low budgets (in my view.) There are fewer JOTW examples that go to low value jewelry. Mined diamonds can be discussed on many forums, but man-made diamonds and simulants are confined to separate forums and cannot be posted in Show me the Bling or Rocky Talky,

In 2000, I started out with a lovely but tiny mid-century engagement ring with a .25ct center. I had simulants for fun and to get a sense of what I liked. Simulants did not displace my love for diamonds, they encouraged it... 18 years after I joined the first jewelry forum, I bought a 5+ ct diamond. Surely I am a success story for Pricescope in cultivating an educated consumer? But I did not post on Pricescope before I had the budget to afford a very large diamond, because I enjoyed small diamonds and simulants. I did not post because I did not feel supported by Pricescope in this.

Another issue that I think exists is counseling all newbies to pursue branded super-ideal cuts without exploring their personal preferences. At times, Pricescope contributors appear to view the choice as between a slightly smaller but better color/clarity super-ideal and a slightly larger but worse color/clarity super-ideal. That is not the end-all and be-all of choices... for the same price I paid for the 5.03 ideal OEC (including recut from orginal 5.7ct weight), I could have purchased a 2-3ct CBI according to current search engines. That is a big difference in visual impact!!

My suggestions for broadening the appeal of Pricescope would be:

  • Celebrate low budgets for both small diamonds and ceasing the segregation of simulants and man-made diamonds
  • Focus consumer education on determining visually what they prefer so that they do not receive 100% recommendations for super-ideal diamonds unless that's what they want

Thank you again for all you have given me!
Well said!
 

sledge

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Apr 23, 2018
Messages
4,441
Thank you for the awesome feedback @Polyhex! I am glad you took the time to respond back.

Also thank you for sharing some of your eye candy. I love OEC's, regardless of size or color as those big chunky facets apparently push my buttons!

I do have a few questions for you. You mentioned you felt it was hard to participate partially because of owning a smaller and less valuable stone or piece of jewelry.

I get and agree with MMD's, but in regards to natural stones do you feel the size thing was something the forum was unaccepting of or astigmatism of the owner?

To be clear I don't mean this rude or anything like that. I am genuinely curious. My wife's stone is 0.867 and much smaller than a vast majority of stones on here. I am comfortable talking and discussing regardless of size. I actually wanted to buy her a 2 carat stone but she wanted a smaller stone. I settled at the size already mentioned but initially that was larger than what she wanted.

Because I felt I could go larger maybe I didn't have the same experience as others, but I didn't personally feel "shamed" for choosing a smaller stone. Of course I would also agree that most people here prioritize size over color or clarity, and I could see how that could be construed as unwelcoming of smaller stones.

Mostly I am curious because if the forum is being mean, we need to make changes. However, if it's a mental block of the owners then I need help understanding how to make my comments better so I can hopefully provide them the confidence to share with us.
 

msop04

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Dec 3, 2011
Messages
9,793
Another issue that I think exists is counseling all newbies to pursue branded super-ideal cuts without exploring their personal preferences. At times, Pricescope contributors appear to view the choice as between a slightly smaller but better color/clarity super-ideal and a slightly larger but worse color/clarity super-ideal. That is not the end-all and be-all of choices...
I couldn't agree more on this point. This practice really irks me...

Newbie: "I want to get my girlfriend the biggest diamond I can with a lot of sparkle. I know it can't look yellow or have obvious flaws... my budget is $3800..."

Pricescope: "Great! You'll want a super ideal for maximum sparkle... have you seen this 0.70 ct. F/VS2 ACA??"


Nope. Pretty much anyone will tell you they notice size first. If the diamond doesn't have visible inclusions, isn't "yellow" or tinted, and sparkles like crazy... most women will be very happy. It doesn't take paying the premium for a super ideal to achieve that. If money were no object, of course most everyone would want a super ideal... I know I would. I also know I'll never be able to afford one in the size I desire... and that's okay too. #sizewhore ::shrugs:: ;-)


Most of these newbs know next to nothing about diamonds, have never seen a nicely cut diamond (or one outside of the mall, for that matter). The same is likely true of their intendeds. They know they saw an H/I at Zales, and it was tinted yellow A LOT and didn't really sparkle. Of course, it was graded by ABC lab, so that's to be expected. We should continue to educate, explaining the importance of a respectable lab, the importance of cut, and encourage them to see AGS Ideal and GIA XXX diamonds (with desirable specs) with their own eyes... but putting all options out there.

At the end of the day, I believe most would prefer a noticeably larger XXX H/SI1 than a smaller F-G/VS2 super ideal if the prices are comparable. I believe we're doing newbies a disservice by automatically suggesting super ideals, especially expressing that it'll be "worth it" because they'll "totally see the sparkle difference" in that 0.7 ct ACA/CBI/BGD. I feel like the poor guy is thinking he's getting an incredibly inferior stone if not super ideal, and that's not cool.

In the real world (outside of PS), H isn't considered "borderline yellow", eye clean is eye clean... and size matters. Let's do these guys/ladies a solid and dig a little deeper into what would best suit the wearer. That may very well be a super ideal in some cases, but I feel like the majority just want to make a more educated choice to find "a sparkly diamond that is white and clean."

There are TONS of diamonds that aren't quite super ideal that may be seen as a better "bang for the buck" than that of a super ideal.

Just my $0.02...
 

Whisper89

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Nov 26, 2018
Messages
128
You mentioned you felt it was hard to participate partially because of owning a smaller and less valuable stone or piece of jewelry.

... but in regards to natural stones do you feel the size thing was something the forum was unaccepting of or astigmatism of the owner?

Mostly I am curious because if the forum is being mean, we need to make changes. However, if it's a mental block of the owners then I need help understanding how to make my comments better so I can hopefully provide them the confidence to share with us.
I've been following this thread with interest and as a newbie I haven't commented because I mostly feel that yes, PS is quite elitist. I see a lot of comments from members saying they would not choose a particular diamond due to some tiny fraction of a degree that is outside their chosen parameters. Tiny details that most of us in the 'outside world' would never notice (or indeed know about in the first place). However, I don't particularly see anything wrong with that because I think most people only post here because they've decided buying this particular piece of jewellery is important enough to warrant going online, making an account etc, to seek out help. Most people want the best - within their budget - and I don't think that recommending what members perceive to be the best (whether that be a WF ACA or a HPD stone) is a problem because it seems to be done in good faith by members who genuinely want to help.


However, I'm going to chime in here in response to the above, because personally I have experienced instances of both aspects of @sledge 's question.

The first - people being mean. I don't know whether it's intentional, but the problem with writing online is that nobody can assess the tone behind the comments and so we must take it as written. I do see mean comments and people being snide about small stones. For example, somebody posted a small diamond ring and called it a "beauty". Someone else responded saying it was lovely and asked for more details. I don't recall the entire response but it included the phrase "I guess small diamonds get a lot more love than anything above 2ct. I guess because it makes people feel better about their own measly stone :lol: "
Now that was rude and uncalled for. Calling any stone "measly" is unnecessary and a kick in the guts to those of us who will never be able to own anything "big".

The second - a mental block thing feeling stigmatised. I hesitate to offer up an example here because I know that this OP did not mean any kind of offence, or to make anyone else feel inadequate in any way. But I do want to use an example to illustrate my feelings and this one comes to mind. Recently someone was given a 4 carat diamond and posted about whether they should recut it. Now, they did get some replies saying they were fortunate to have it and they should not recut it, etc. They also got replies saying yes, make it more perfect - which, I stress again, is totally fine and the point of this forum! However, from the point of view of someone who will likely never see, let alone wear, such a valuable diamond the very idea that someone would receive this stone (for free I might add) and view it as inadequate and in need of improvement just makes me feel...a bit shit, to be honest.

One final point. I know there is a 'rings under 1 carat' thread in SMTB. It gets traffic and the rings there get lovely genuine compliments. It's just that it feels a bit like the kiss between two women at the end of the latest Star Wars movie - something added on to include a certain community, but could be easily edited out if needs be, rather than something integrated into the values of the forum itself as a whole.
 

OoohShiny

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Apr 25, 2014
Messages
7,362
Thank you for your feedback :))

One final point. I know there is a 'rings under 1 carat' thread in SMTB. It gets traffic and the rings there get lovely genuine compliments. It's just that it feels a bit like the kiss between two women at the end of the latest Star Wars movie - something added on to include a certain community, but could be easily edited out if needs be, rather than something integrated into the values of the forum itself as a whole.
I feel a bit sad that you feel this way (although I agree about the kiss in Star Wars feeling artificial, lol).

I am totally with you WRT budget paranoia - I am unlikely to ever get a diamond of substantial size unless/until MMDs drop greatly in price, and MMDs are subject to their own ongoing discussions about being 'real' - but I hope that PS is generally a pretty positive place about the stones people post, regardless of size. If people don't like something for a particular reason, IME they usually stay politely quiet or instead offer a compliment on another aspect of the piece in question, but I do appreciate that it is not always the case. The admin and mods are pretty good at being strict with those who are unnecessarily 'direct', but one can always report a post if one feels there is either overt or implied negativity. :)

For me, the 'under 1ct' thread has as much of a place as the 'show us your 5ct honkers' thread - numerical carat weight/size (psychological) boundaries are just an easy way of creating a delineation that helps a reader quickly find examples of jewellery that might be within their budget, or to act as inspiration for those seeking a reset. I don't imagine PS will ever become totally focused on larger stones and disregard 'small' stones; I think it is just more a reflection that it the majority of members are US-based, which as we all know, is generally the land of 'bigger is better' ;-) lol
 

OoohShiny

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Apr 25, 2014
Messages
7,362
@Polyhex Thank you for sharing your opinion!

Please please make a post about your 5 Carat OEC. I’m also toying with the idea to have a diamond recut into an ideal oec. Maybe you could share more about your journey through a post about your beautiful ring?
+1 to this - we would love to see more on your ring and also your historic jewellery, @Polyhex! :))
 

Whisper89

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Nov 26, 2018
Messages
128
For me, the 'under 1ct' thread has as much of a place as the 'show us your 5ct honkers' thread - numerical carat weight/size (psychological) boundaries are just an easy way of creating a delineation that helps a reader quickly find examples of jewellery that might be within their budget, or to act as inspiration for those seeking a reset.
Yes, I think this is fair and a good point.
I suppose it just goes to show how differently people can perceive things and how difficult it would be to create a community where everybody felt equally welcomed and appreciated.
I don't think it's a huge deal - and it hasn't stopped me visiting this forum! But this thread was created and people did ask our opinions, lol!

I think it is just more a reflection that it the majority of members are US-based, which as we all know, is generally the land of 'bigger is better' ;-) lol
Yes this may also be true!
 

kenny

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Apr 30, 2005
Messages
28,390
FWIW, I'm a cut slut ... thanks to PS :clap: ... no regrets! =)2
I do post my experience and passion about top light performance.

But when responding to a noob I try to quickly add that while few people have seen good cut, all shoppers should try to go out and see it in person ... if possible next to the diamond they are considering.
Though initially it seems tacky I've even recommended "temporarily" buying an idea cut online from a vendor with an excellent return policy.
If top cut doesn't feel worth it, return it.
While this appears to be a disservice to our vendors, I'm sure some will keep the well-cut diamond, but only after seeing it in person in their home for a few days.
Perhaps overall this acctually increases vendor sales.

Of the 4 Cs, cut is the most subjective.
IMO one must see top cut to know whether, to you, it's worth compromising on the other Cs.
Sure, after seeing it some will decide it's not worth the extra expense, but at least they've made and educated decision.

I agree that shoving ideal cut down every noobs throat is a disservice, but IMO my balanced approach with a reasoned introduction to good cut is not a disservice.

Diamond shopping is all about educated decisions.
 
Last edited:

TODiamonds

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Jul 27, 2019
Messages
260
FWIW, I'm a cut slut ... thanks to PS :clap: ... no regrets! =)2
I do post my experience and passion about top light performance.

But when responding to a noob I try to quickly add that while few people have seen good cut, all shoppers should try to go out and see it in person ... if possible next to the diamond they are considering.
Though initially it seems tacky I've even recommended "temporarily" buying an idea cut online from a vendor with an excellent return policy.
If top cut doesn't feel worth it, return it.
While this appears to be a disservice to our vendors, I'm sure some will keep the well-cut diamond, but only after seeing it in person in their home for a few days.
Perhaps overall this acctually increases vendor sales.

Of the 4 Cs, cut is the most subjective.
IMO one must see top cut to know whether, to you, it's worth compromising on the other Cs.
Sure, after seeing it some will decide it's not worth the extra expense, but at least they've made and educated decision.

I agree that shoving ideal cut down every noobs throat is a disservice, but IMO my balanced approach with a reasoned introduction to good cut is not a disservice.

Diamond shopping is all about educated decisions.
Your intentions are good, but the reality is nobody in the real world (much less noobs) have the time or patience to buy a super ideal just to look at it and then return it. Even more laughable is people who suggest noobs to buy TWO super ideal diamonds and then to return one. You guys make it sound like borrowing a book from the local library or something.

The vast majority of average people in the real world 1) don't have access to that kind of credit, nor do they want the financial stress of being extended for that long before they finally get their refund; 2) don't have time or desire to deal with all the logistics of buying and returning diamonds because they have busy lives.

Another practical example of how out of touch with the real world PS can be sometimes.
 

kenny

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Apr 30, 2005
Messages
28,390
Your intentions are good, but the reality is nobody in the real world (much less noobs) have the time or patience to buy a super ideal just to look at it and then return it. Even more laughable is people who suggest noobs to buy TWO super ideal diamonds and then to return one. You guys make it sound like borrowing a book from the local library or something.

The vast majority of average people in the real world 1) don't have access to that kind of credit, nor do they want the financial stress of being extended for that long before they finally get their refund; 2) don't have time or desire to deal with all the logistics of buying and returning diamonds because they have busy lives.

Another practical example of how out of touch with the real world PS can be sometimes.
Laugh away.
Read again, I didn't recommend temporarily buying TWO ideal diamonds, only one for comparison.

Obviously you'll loose shipping both ways, IMO a tiny price to pay for a valuable lesson.

Post whatever you want.
I'm not telling you how to post, so don't tell me.

Posters vary.
Diversity's a good thing.
 

OoohShiny

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Apr 25, 2014
Messages
7,362
Your intentions are good, but the reality is nobody in the real world (much less noobs) have the time or patience to buy a super ideal just to look at it and then return it. Even more laughable is people who suggest noobs to buy TWO super ideal diamonds and then to return one. You guys make it sound like borrowing a book from the local library or something.

The vast majority of average people in the real world 1) don't have access to that kind of credit, nor do they want the financial stress of being extended for that long before they finally get their refund; 2) don't have time or desire to deal with all the logistics of buying and returning diamonds because they have busy lives.

Another practical example of how out of touch with the real world PS can be sometimes.
I hear what you're saying, but I am inclined to agree with Kenny - the point of PS it to make sure diamond buyers are buying in full awareness of the options out there, and IMHO no-one really knows how well a stone can perform until they have seen the top-performers out there, so ordering one to take along when shopping locally is a wise move. If you prefer the local stone(s), return the 'superideal'.

Is it a bit inconvenient for both the seller and the buyer when that happens? Of course, but it's a small effort for a potentially life-long benefit, and the vendors surely price the (few?) instances of this into their pricing structures.

I don't see it as much different to buying anything else online - it is the way of the world nowadays.
 

arkieb1

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
May 11, 2012
Messages
9,574
Kenny is a cut slut, I'm a size whore..... I got called mean and nasty for labelling a .25 diamond small. So I asked normal Aussie friends who are not PSers who don't have large diamonds is a .25 carat diamond small? Because in Australia unlike the US really large diamonds are not that common here......

Guess what, they all said it was small.

If you own a .25 or thereabouts diamond it's small. I haven't said that to judge anyone, to make people on a budget or who like small diamonds feel bad about themselves, I honestly don't care what size diamond people want to wear, I'm happy to look at and celebrate diamonds of all sizes...... but in reverse I don't need a guilt trip or see the need to be branded "elitist" for labelling something "small" when everyone else is thinking the SAME thing. And for the record I don't see 1 carat diamonds as "small" I see them as pretty normal or standard.
 

dumbo

Shiny_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jan 5, 2015
Messages
185
Here was my experience when shopping and getting advice here:

Many people were very helpful, but a few brought their own preferences and expectations into the conversation and presented them as "fact".

If I had listened to certain people on this board, I would have thought that:
1) any diamond rated I or worse is basically school-bus yellow
2) any diamond rated VS2 or worse looks like a marshmallow that has caught fire.
3) any diamond not superideal has the light return of a lump of coal.
4) too many posters ignore "value" and look at the question as if there are no trade-offs or that things like VS1 clarity cost a lot of money
5) everyone has different priorities.

I was originally looking at getting something between 3 and 4 carats for my wife's e-ring. I had 2 choices at the price point: around a 3.2 carat from a Super ideal vendor adored here, and a 4 carat from another sponsor vendor that graded out easily at AGS000. The table on the 4 carat was a bit large, as they wanted to keep it at 4.00 carats and not 3.99.

I bought both and planned to keep the one she liked better.

Regarding the poor advice I got:
1) after showing the idealscope and ASET images, even though they were obviously bright and the diamond faced up very well, there was some negative criticism of the cut. In real life, it was every bit as bright as the Superideal we compared it to, with just as much fire. Could an expert pick out a difference? Perhaps? Could she? No.

2) The Superideal graded out as a J, the AGS00 was a K. Again, some people basically said "K, run for the hills"! In real life, there was almost no perceptible difference in color. The K looks bright white compared next to almost anything out there: it is cut very well and provides a lot of bright white reflective light. Sure, next to an E, it will look a bit tinted, but given my budget of $40k, is an E even an option? Sure, 1.5 carats, maybe, and once she saw 4 carats on her finger, there was no consideration of 1.5 carats, no matter the color.

3) my wife loved the fact that it was big and stunning. She gets multiple compliments on it every day. There was no doubt in her mind that she wanted something a color grade worse and ideal instead of superideal in order to gain a carat.

4) my wife's ring is SI2. The inclusions do not affect optical performance in any way, and they are not visible to the naked eye. I have 14/20 vision and cannot detect anything. Again, some here would only buy VS1 or better, but to say that is the way it should be for everyone is just silly. That is a preference, not good buying advice for the masses.

What it came down to with my wife: cut was very important to her, but paying extra for a superideal that big was not worth it when she couldn't notice a difference compared to the AGS000 ideal. Color: K was close to colorless to her eyes. Size: a 4 carat, to her, with all of the light it puts off, easily trumps a color or 2 grade increase. Clarity: anything that isn't visible is not worth paying extra for.

She loves her 4 carat K, SI2. It is stunning in every light.

Since then, we have purchased several M-colored diamonds from Brian Gavin. They are also very bright, with just a hint of warmth, and offer very good value. Those here on this board who diss warmer colored stones don't know what they are missing.

That was my experience. I had to spend a lot of time wading around to find out what was truly useful and what was opinionated armchair-quarterbacking. Sure, I could have put the $35,000 I spent into a 2 carat Superideal in an F color, but it wasn't her preference. We saw a stone like that recently (super clear 2 carat E color for $20k more than I paid for hers) and her comment? It is nice and white, but so tiny!
 
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