A Discussion On Bias

[Richard Sherwood]

The reality is though that you can''t shut people down because you don''t like what they say, or how they say it.

You can, but when you do you trangress from a free society to a totalitarian society.

When that happens, everybody loses.

 

[Moh 10]

Although painful, I think overall this group therapy session has been helpful.

 

[Moh 10]

Date: 7/27/2009 10:18:33 PM
Author: Rockdiamond

Date: 7/27/2009 9:42:24 PM

Author: strmrdr

I am coming back in to answer the odd combination question.

Yes combinations outside the norm can be evaluated online given enough information.

Yes combinations outside the norm can be beautiful.. no one disputes that.


Where David and my disagreement is two parts.

He says trust the vendor.

I say take what the vendor says as one part of the puzzle but take a critical look at the rest of the data and get as much data as possible.

It is not an easy task and takes some knowledge to do that.

Some combinations will never make for a beautiful diamond and some might or might not.

The other option is having the diamond sent to an appraiser to look at with the consumer.

The other is rely on the return policy and take a look.

In the later case the consumer needs to make a critical evaluation because they are passing up the safety factor of known good combinations.

David has been challenged to come up with a good system to vet these outside the norm combos that is better than IS/ASET/DC/video pictures and all he has done is come back to trust the vendor.

That is disagreement one.


Disagreement 2 is how he treats consumers and how he interacts with them.


Frankly I can live with disagreement 1 but not the second.

Storm- again- I'm asking this with all due respect- as I'd love to have peace.

Please don't state my position.

We actually agree in large part.

I never said' Trust the vendor'- in fact, I've spent a lot of time saying exactly the opposite.

For example, telling people NOT to trust EGL report- but that they can actually buy a diamond with an EGL report, if they find a vendor that they feel comfortable with that has the diamond in front of them and can assess it.

Another example is a link on almost every merchandise page to a tutorial about appraisal values, and how not to trust a sellers appraisal value if it's being used as a sales tool.

We discuss many other things online, and on the telephone to perspective clients that I'm sure you and I agree on.

If the challenge is to suggest an alternative method, then I'd say use your method minus the ASET/IS

Take those away and you have my method. Photos and video along with a trusted vendors opinion.

That's why I'm not a fan of drop shippers.

However if one was to buy from a seller who did not have the diamond, your methods (Karl) would be better.


I sincerely believe that the time spent researching a vendor is more important in most people's diamond lives as opposed to learning which crown/pavilion angle combination produces which result.

I sincerely apologize if that offends anyone who has spent time learning such data as I totally repsect you for it. To each his own!


The other part of your post which I so respectfully disagree with is the use of the term 'consumers'.

If you do not like the way I address forum participants that's one thing.

The consumers we deal with are probably afraid to post.


That was one reason I felt compelled to come back on.....


ETA: THIS IN NO WAY NULLIFIES MY APOLOGY TO STORM- I REALLY DO WANT TO COEXIST PEACEFULLY

Do you guys realize you've stolen my look of one sentence per line?

I want royalty checks.

 

[Richard Sherwood]

Date: 7/27/2009 11:30:26 PM
Author: Moh 10
Although painful, I think overall this group therapy session has been helpful.

I agree.

 

[Richard Sherwood]

By the way, look how many people have been interested in this topic. Over 6600 views in 5 days.

The world is watching.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Rich, I owe you $20 for the hearty belly laugh you gave me before!
Thank you.

Marion- so, first I have to tangle with firefighters- and even seeing that you now force me to get on the wrong side of health professionals? Holy cow, if something of mine is one fire, no one will come help me- then afterwards, I won't be able to get therapy!!

All kidding aside, do you believe comparing this to a group therapy session is a fair and accurate thing to do?

I don't know about you Marion, but I HATE when someone says; "Trust me" in a business transaction.
In fact, people have at times asked for an appraiser to verify a purchase- or a prior customer they can call to check me out.
I explain to them that if I was to refer them to an appraiser to verify the purchase, or a client to give experiences- it would be tainted as a seller should step back at those times and recommend general methods as opposed to specific parties.


Marion, I also extend the olive branch to you.
I may be....extreme, but there is certainly an element of unity here that needs a little ruffling at times.
While you may not want disruption as a mental health professional, here in an open discussion differences of opinion make it far more interesting, and informative.

 

[coda72]

RD, you post more than I do. In the 4+ years I''ve been here I''ve only collected just over a 1,000 posts. So, that may or may not be proof of me not engaging in gang mentality or unity as you put it in your last post. But I will tell you, that I would not have bought a diamond from your website 4 years ago, and the same still holds true now. And it has nothing to do with what anyone else has said on this thread; I came to this conclusion all on my own.

 

[Modified Brilliant]

Date: 7/27/2009 11:40:46 PM
Author: Richard Sherwood

Date: 7/27/2009 11:30:26 PM
Author: Moh 10
Although painful, I think overall this group therapy session has been helpful.

I agree.

It worked well for Tony Soprano, too...but it was short lived.
May these therapy sessions bring us all closer together.


www.metrojewelryappraisers.com

 

[Rockdiamond]

Hi Coda,
Here''s an analogy I thought of once......

There''s a restaurant in Soho NYC.
It''s called Cafe Habana.
You have to wait up to an hour to get in.
It''s tiny, loud and the food very spicy.
If you read the online reviews, it''s amazing at the pattern you find.

Four people RAVE about the atmosphere, the fifth person complains about the noise.
Four people praise the waitstaff for their cool efficiency, the fifth insults them for being inattentive.
Four people are ecstatic about the corn ( it''s amazing), the fifth complains it''s burned.

I never thought people would spend time on a site they did not feel a strong emotional connection to.
I crafted the site in that manner.
Anything that has a strong flavor is bound to polarize folks.
I''m sorry if you found anything on the site to be offensive.
You simply can''t please everyone.

 

[risingsun]

Date: 7/27/2009 11:47:23 PM
Author: Rockdiamond
Rich, I owe you $20 for the hearty belly laugh you gave me before!
Thank you.

Marion- so, first I have to tangle with firefighters- and even seeing that you now force me to get on the wrong side of health professionals? Holy cow, if something of mine is one fire, no one will come help me- then afterwards, I won't be able to get therapy!!

All kidding aside, do you believe comparing this to a group therapy session is a fair and accurate thing to do?

I don't know about you Marion, but I HATE when someone says; 'Trust me' in a business transaction.
In fact, people have at times asked for an appraiser to verify a purchase- or a prior customer they can call to check me out.
I explain to them that if I was to refer them to an appraiser to verify the purchase, or a client to give experiences- it would be tainted as a seller should step back at those times and recommend general methods as opposed to specific parties.


Marion, I also extend the olive branch to you.
I may be....extreme, but there is certainly an element of unity here that needs a little ruffling at times.
While you may not want disruption as a mental health professional, here in an open discussion differences of opinion make it far more interesting, and informative.

I would be happy to offer you individual therapy. I do not think you are ready to be placed into a group setting. There is a difference between an honest and open discussion and being disruptive and acting out. If you want to be informative, try dialing back the rhetoric. I think you would benefit from my class on Assertiveness Skills. Being passive-aggressive isn't an effective method of interpersonal communication. It places others on the defensive and makes you look like the bad guy. If you want to extend the olive branch, please do so by moderating your behavior on this forum. You have not been ruffling feathers, you have been plucking the whole bird naked!! Don't minimize your actions, please. Take responsibility and work toward positive change.

A therapy group, like any other group of people, has standards and norms. Among these norms is dealing with difficult and disruptive people. Many times, the group or society is able to assist outliers in recognizing and moderating their behavior. If the group or society is unable to do so, then more drastic measures may be taken. Read up on your anthropology.

My challenge to you is to work toward sustained growth and change.

 

[ChunkyCushionLover]

So, I went to David's site, to see what it was like. And what I saw was what I had heard on these boards. The lighting used is flattering to many stones (really hard to see the inclusions though, but, maybe that's part of the point, who knows), the folksy write ups might be nice to some people who don't know any better, and he certainly makes them all sound lovely, but where's the proof? There's no comparison of a badly cut stone and a nicely cut stone to show me why his are as great as he says. And sometimes no grading report. Am I just supposed to believe him? And if so, why? Has he shown me why he is trustworthy? No. In fact, he has shown me the opposite. Here are some examples of what I'm talking about.

Here is the link to his Ebay site. He states, among other things, that 'J-K colored stones and imperfect diamonds are more commonly offered without grading reports, or lesser reports. Maybe with what he carries, but we all know there are several vendors who absolutely have full reports on their J/K stones. A bit disingenuos imo, but again, maybe with the stones he buys....


Then we have this page, which farther down says, 'As you can see from the photos, it's a well earned symmetry grade Very Good-rare in an Emerald cut'. Really? Rare? That didn't sound right, but then I'm not into EC's, so I just went to WF and punched in a page full to see if he was right. (I had bookmarked the page, but apparently it will not save) At any rate, it pulled up a page of EC's with Very Good or Ex Symmetry on every single one. It can easily be duplicated, and these were not in house btw. So, that's not true. Why did David say this? I don't know. Either he really thinks it is and doesn't know any better, or, he's being rather disingenous again....


Then there's this stone, which he says was 'cut by the book'. What 'book' David? And aren't you the one always saying we shouldn't rely on numbers with fancies? How they aren't all that important? And I love how you're always saying you LOVE a stone, as you say in here. Isn't that showing BIAS David? Isn't that a bit 'leading', since you're the 'expert', and we should trust you, then we should find this beautiful too, right? Now, I'm not saying it is or isn't, but shouldn't you leave that judgement up to the buyer? And btw, got anything that doesn't look like this one, to compare to? To make sure I really like this style, say, a chunky faceted well cut cushion?


Which leads me to another question. I fully realize that fancies must be judged on their beauty more than by numbers. And that sometimes one comes along that doesn't follow the general rule of table smaller than depth. But honestly, that's the majority of what you sell. Are all these those 'anomolies'. Or is it just what you prefer? Why don't you offer a bigger variety of cuts?


You got on me in another this page, and guess what I found? the word brilliance! In fact, you said this diamond had great brilliance. You don't mean to mislead do you? You also say in terms of cut, the diamond is quite beautiful. I guess you can get away with that, since it has no official grading report... Again, who says so, you? Knowing what a really beautiful round looks like, I can say it's not. But to someone who's never seen one, I guess maybe.... this one is pretty debatable though, me thinks.


This page really surprised me. Not only do you rave about this stone and the CUT, you say you were drunk on it. Granted, it is a gorgeous stone, but, I didn't think CUT was so important with fancies. Throw the numbers out you said, throw out symmetry and polish grades, they aren't important! But wait, you seem to really be singing their virtues on THIS stone.... and the proportions as well. So, cut does matter somewhat, doesn't it?

I'll end with this, though I could truly go on and on. For 'your own cut grades', you say you've only got two, Amazing and Reject. Really David, how can you say this with a straight face? And, we're just supposed to take your word on these stones being well cut, since they come with no GIA report...We should just 'trust' you, right? On a 5.25 ct. necklace....

One last thing. You told, Black Jade I believe it was, that we on here might tell someone looking at a 60/60 to reject it and go with an AGS0. That's rubbish, as far as I, Lorelei and strm are concerned. There may be others as well, but I know for a FACT we three don't say that. We tell them the differences in appearance and let them pick. THEY are the ones who reject a stone cut like that. Not because they can't be pretty, because they don't like the trade off.



What I have laid forth are just a few of the reasons I have so little regard for your opinion on here David. These things don't make me trust you, and they don't make me respect you. Those things do not come automatically, but instead are things which must be earned. So if you feel people are ganging up on you, maybe the others came to the same feelings/conclusion I have, all on my own.



I want to end this by saying I did not take the time to type this all out as some kind of slam on you. I did it because I truly wanted you to understand where I am coming from, what I have been trying to say to you, as have others. You don't get 'subtle', so I had to be really honest and blunt. But I also did it so that if you want to help yourself in the eyes of some on this board, and possibly your business, you know where and what things you need to change. The ball is in your court now.

Ellen,

I know how long it took to write this post as I have written two like it and as you can see from his response he has absolutely no intention of changing the way he does business or the way he presents things on his site.
We might as well not waste our time directing our analysis to him, he should just read it along with any other posters as we warn them to watch out for vendors like him.

On his website too many things are misleading and his general mentality is that in coloured diamonds things are chaotic and he can get away with saying almost anything. He also is too brash to care and describes colorless and near colorless diamonds the same way.

His business model seems clear to me. Buy "B stock" at low prices and then charge just slightly lower for those stones on average than the near ideal ones we talk about here from drop shippers.
Often his prices are much higher for similar quality from other PS vendors here but of course he sells to the uneducated mostly who don't know any better.

The site appeals to novices with all the pretty colorful pictures and videos. The information is clearly biased and is used as a sales tool not as an education or information site. The rhetoric and descriptions make it impossible to even compare one stone to another as they are all "unique" again applying his colored stone philosophy.

It think it is best we ignore his responses or selectively respond when there is something of value to the other posters here.
Sometimes he decides to educate us with a useful pearl of wisdom but those instances are still few and far between.

He is perfectly fine with wasting his time and ours and responding to him just validates his posts which often don't warrant a response.

Regards,
CCL

 

[Serg]

Date: 7/27/2009 11:24:46 PM
Author: Richard Sherwood
The reality is though that you can''t shut people down because you don''t like what they say, or how they say it.


You can, but when you do you trangress from a free society to a totalitarian society.


When that happens, everybody loses.

Richard, it is main reason why I support RD rights publish his post on PS.

I do not like his site, but I did not find anything wrong on his site( even after Several persons from PS send me different links to "bad " places on him site. I checked its, yes some places are "very sweet" but its are technically correct in same time)
I like RD post on PS for several reason:
1) It add good balance to PS ( Only H&A type diamonds are not correct representation diamonds good for consumer . It just most safe part of diamond market.)
2) His posts have interesting information
3) His posts are well written . If you want win from RD on PS you need write good posts too. It is good practices . Unfortunately a lot of PS active members prefer short way and if they can not win in word war they come to personal level. Before RD came to PS, life for many active PS member was easy. they gave mainly standards advises and were very proud in such work. Then RD came with alternative point of view( even with opposite point of view), he does not follow PS business samples, He did mess on PS and he is very good orator. Active members who can not win in word and technical wars came to personal level, it is reason why PS I sick on my opinion.
4) Battles with RD could train PS classical advisers and correct them advices . Very often advices were very strong without right balance. for example they penalty diamonds as P41.2CR34.5 without any scientific proof , without real understanding limitation ASET/IS technology . I think PS advisers have shift focus and RD could correct it for better balance
5) I know what is totalitarian society and how it can Easy come. It is very easy to received in any new community and we need hard work to avoid it.

 

[Serg]

Date: 7/28/2009 2:55:09 AM
Author: Serg

Date: 7/27/2009 11:24:46 PM

Author: Richard Sherwood

The reality is though that you can''t shut people down because you don''t like what they say, or how they say it.



You can, but when you do you trangress from a free society to a totalitarian society.



When that happens, everybody loses.

Richard, it is main reason why I support RD rights publish his post on PS.


I do not like his site, but I did not find anything wrong on his site( even after Several persons from PS send me different links to ''bad '' places on him site. I checked its, yes some places are ''very sweet'' but its are technically correct in same time)

I like RD post on PS for several reason:

1) It add good balance to PS ( Only H&A type diamonds are not correct representation diamonds good for consumer . It just most safe part of diamond market.)

2) His posts have interesting information

3) His posts are well written . If you want win from RD on PS you need write good posts too. It is good practices . Unfortunately a lot of PS active members prefer short way and if they can not win in word war they come to personal level. Before RD came to PS, life for many active PS member was easy. they gave mainly standards advises and were very proud in such work. Then RD came with alternative point of view( even with opposite point of view), he does not follow PS business samples, He did mess on PS and he is very good orator. Active members who can not win in word and technical wars came to personal level, it is reason why PS I sick on my opinion.

4) Battles with RD could train PS classical advisers and correct them advices . Very often advices were very strong without right balance. for example they penalty diamonds as P41.2CR34.5 without any scientific proof , without real understanding limitation ASET/IS technology . I think PS advisers have shift focus and RD could correct it for better balance

5) I know what is totalitarian society and how it can Easy come. It is very easy to received in any new community and we need hard work to avoid it.

re: Active members who can not win in word and technical wars came to personal level, it is reason why PS I sick on my opinion.

sorry for misprint
should be

Active members who can not win in word and technical wars came to personal level, it is reason why PS is sick on my opinion.

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 7/27/2009 7:35:33 PM
Author: Moh 10
Is it possible for PS to be both a consumer protection site and a vendor protection site?


Are these two functions mutually exclusive?

No it is not possible.
Yes they are mutually exclusive.

This thread is a perfect example.
Look at how many trade members are rallying around Davids mistreatment of consumers.
To be fair there are a large number who oppose it also.

 

[Serg]

Date: 7/28/2009 6:48:47 AM
Author: strmrdr

Date: 7/27/2009 7:35:33 PM

Author: Moh 10

Is it possible for PS to be both a consumer protection site and a vendor protection site?



Are these two functions mutually exclusive?

No it is not possible.

Yes they are mutually exclusive.


This thread is a perfect example.

Look at how many trade members are rallying around Davids mistreatment of consumers.

Karl,

I am strongly disagree .
Consumers can not receive good service and well balanced advices if vendors have not protection from false and vulgar consumers(bias) attacks

 

[Serg]

Karl,

are you consumer? what PS rules should you follow ? for trades or for consumers?
I think PS administration needs add new category and rules for persons as I and you.

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 7/28/2009 7:13:54 AM
Author: Serg
Karl,


are you consumer? what PS rules should you follow ? for trades or for consumers?

I think PS administration needs add new category and rules for persons as I and you.

I operate on my own code that goes far beyond what the rules cover.
It aligns pretty well with the rules and I don't get my hand slapped to often so it works.
I have created over the years my own position that doesn't fit into any one category.
No matter what I end up doing my heart will always be with the consumers of PS.
My first duty will be to them on PS.

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 7/28/2009 2:55:09 AM
Author: Serg

Date: 7/27/2009 11:24:46 PM

Author: Richard Sherwood

The reality is though that you can''t shut people down because you don''t like what they say, or how they say it.



You can, but when you do you trangress from a free society to a totalitarian society.



When that happens, everybody loses.

Richard, it is main reason why I support RD rights publish his post on PS.


I do not like his site, but I did not find anything wrong on his site( even after Several persons from PS send me different links to ''bad '' places on him site. I checked its, yes some places are ''very sweet'' but its are technically correct in same time)

I like RD post on PS for several reason:

1) It add good balance to PS ( Only H&A type diamonds are not correct representation diamonds good for consumer . It just most safe part of diamond market.)

2) His posts have interesting information

3) His posts are well written . If you want win from RD on PS you need write good posts too. It is good practices . Unfortunately a lot of PS active members prefer short way and if they can not win in word war they come to personal level. Before RD came to PS, life for many active PS member was easy. they gave mainly standards advises and were very proud in such work. Then RD came with alternative point of view( even with opposite point of view), he does not follow PS business samples, He did mess on PS and he is very good orator. Active members who can not win in word and technical wars came to personal level, it is reason why PS I sick on my opinion.

4) Battles with RD could train PS classical advisers and correct them advices . Very often advices were very strong without right balance. for example they penalty diamonds as P41.2CR34.5 without any scientific proof , without real understanding limitation ASET/IS technology . I think PS advisers have shift focus and RD could correct it for better balance

5) I know what is totalitarian society and how it can Easy come. It is very easy to received in any new community and we need hard work to avoid it.

No, he will be nothing but a disruptive influence unless he changes how he goes about it.
Which is what I have been telling him since he rejoined.
So far the leopard hasn''t changed it spots.
If one wants to change opinions the only way to do that is to put together factual presentations and submit them to the journal for peer review.

 

[Ellen]

Date: 7/28/2009 2:42:00 AM
Author: ChunkyCushionLover

Ellen,

I know how long it took to write this post as I have written two like it and as you can see from his response he has absolutely no intention of changing the way he does business or the way he presents things on his site.

Hi CCL,

I really didn''t think what I said would change anything, or that anything I said would even be considered in a thoughtful manner, though I suppose I was holding out a small bit of hope on the latter. But he seemed to want honesty, and I really did want him to know where I was coming from. To that extent, my post achieved something.

And I hear everything you said.

 

[Ellen]

Date: 7/28/2009 6:58:50 AM
Author: Serg


Karl,

I am strongly disagree .
Consumers can not receive good service and well balanced advices if vendors have not protection from false and vulgar consumers(bias) attacks

Hi Seg,

I have been thinking about what you've said here. Some of us have posted how we view David and his site. Because you don't agree with us, that automatically makes everything we've said/feel false? Is that what you're saying?

I gave a background on my previous jeweler experiences. I then gave examples of what David has done that has fed my cynicism with him. I wasn't trying to be vindictive or attack him, I was being honest. I was trying to make him understand why I feel the way I do. How can that be "wrong"?

 

[Moh 10]

Date: 7/28/2009 7:13:54 AM
Author: Serg

I think PS administration needs add new category and rules for persons as I and you.

Serg, I second that.

To quote myself . . . a few pages back I wrote this, "I think PS needs a mission statement or a charter that clarifies roles and the purpose of Pricescope. Sounds like the animosity is over the perception that some people not functioning in their roles."

 

[Richard Sherwood]

Date: 7/28/2009 6:48:47 AM
Author: strmrdr

Look at how many trade members are rallying around Davids mistreatment of consumers.

I'm sorry, but I just don't see this, in two respects.

One, I don't see David "mistreating consumers", but rather stating his opinions.

Two, to lump trade members who support his right to state his opinions into the category of "rallying around his mistreatment of consumers" is a pretty sweeping (and misleading) categorization. Nobody is approving of "consumer mistreatment", but rather the right to have differing viewpoints.

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 7/28/2009 9:47:45 AM
Author: Moh 10

Date: 7/28/2009 7:13:54 AM

Author: Serg


I think PS administration needs add new category and rules for persons as I and you.

Serg, I second that.


To quote myself . . . a few pages back I wrote this, ''I think PS needs a mission statement or a charter that clarifies roles and the purpose of Pricescope. Sounds like the animosity is over the perception that some people not functioning in their roles.''

The day special rules start telling pro-sumers how to act is the day they will leave.
They are a very smart and independent bunch.

The mission statement is here:
https://www.pricescope.com/about.asp

 

[Richard Sherwood]

Date: 7/28/2009 1:51:07 AM
Author: risingsun

Date: 7/27/2009 11:47:23 PM
Author: Rockdiamond
Rich, I owe you $20 for the hearty belly laugh you gave me before!
Thank you.

Marion- so, first I have to tangle with firefighters- and even seeing that you now force me to get on the wrong side of health professionals? Holy cow, if something of mine is one fire, no one will come help me- then afterwards, I won''t be able to get therapy!!

All kidding aside, do you believe comparing this to a group therapy session is a fair and accurate thing to do?

I don''t know about you Marion, but I HATE when someone says; ''Trust me'' in a business transaction.
In fact, people have at times asked for an appraiser to verify a purchase- or a prior customer they can call to check me out.
I explain to them that if I was to refer them to an appraiser to verify the purchase, or a client to give experiences- it would be tainted as a seller should step back at those times and recommend general methods as opposed to specific parties.


Marion, I also extend the olive branch to you.
I may be....extreme, but there is certainly an element of unity here that needs a little ruffling at times.
While you may not want disruption as a mental health professional, here in an open discussion differences of opinion make it far more interesting, and informative.

I would be happy to offer you individual therapy. I do not think you are ready to be placed into a group setting. There is a difference between an honest and open discussion and being disruptive and acting out. If you want to be informative, try dialing back the rhetoric. I think you would benefit from my class on Assertiveness Skills. Being passive-aggressive isn''t an effective method of interpersonal communication. It places others on the defensive and makes you look like the bad guy. If you want to extend the olive branch, please do so by moderating your behavior on this forum. You have not been ruffling feathers, you have been plucking the whole bird naked!! Don''t minimize your actions, please. Take responsibility and work toward positive change.

A therapy group, like any other group of people, has standards and norms. Among these norms is dealing with difficult and disruptive people. Many times, the group or society is able to assist outliers in recognizing and moderating their behavior. If the group or society is unable to do so, then more drastic measures may be taken. Read up on your anthropology.

My challenge to you is to work toward sustained growth and change.

I don''t know, something about this response really bothers me. I''m trying to pinpoint it. Condescending maybe? Like "I''m sane, but you need help."

It''s almost on the level of lecturing a child for "being disruptive and acting out".

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 7/28/2009 9:49:43 AM
Author: Richard Sherwood

Date: 7/28/2009 6:48:47 AM

Author: strmrdr


Look at how many trade members are rallying around Davids mistreatment of consumers.

I''m sorry, but I just don''t see this, in two respects.


One, I don''t see David ''mistreating consumers'', but rather stating his opinions.


Two, to lump trade members who support his right to state his opinions into the category of ''rallying around his mistreatment of consumers'' is a pretty sweeping (and misleading) categorization. Nobody is approving of ''consumer mistreatment'', but rather the right to have differing viewpoints.

different viewpoints isn''t the problem the problem is how he goes about it.
As far as mistreating consumers goes the overwhelming feeling from pro-sumers and a lot of consumers is that he does.

 

[Serg]

Date: 7/28/2009 9:46:13 AM
Author: Ellen

Date: 7/28/2009 6:58:50 AM
Author: Serg


Karl,

I am strongly disagree .
Consumers can not receive good service and well balanced advices if vendors have not protection from false and vulgar consumers(bias) attacks

Hi Seg,

I have been thinking about what you''ve said here. Some of us have posted how we view David and his site. Because you don''t agree with us, that automatically makes everything we''ve said/feel false? Is that what you''re saying?

I gave a background on my previous jeweler experiences. I then gave examples of what David has done that has fed my cynicism with him. I wasn''t trying to be vindictive or attack him, I was being honest. I was trying to make him understand why I feel the way I do. How can that be ''wrong''?

hi Ellen,
No. If you are not agree with David, if you do not like him and his site, it is not false attake.
I could share you feeling.
But if anybody do statements as
1) David mistreat consumers
2) his diamonds are bad
3) do not buy this diamond from him
Without Any proof, it is false attak
I one give one example. Garry had huge fighting about david photos. garry thought what David use Photoshop. Garry was wrong
I asked Garry send examples wrong information from David site. I did not receive any clear example with what i can agree. I have high respect to Garry.

I do not like Garry, Karl , your style fighting with David becuase Mostly it is emotion without any facts.

 

[Moh 10]

Date: 7/28/2009 10:25:29 AM
Author: Serg

Date: 7/28/2009 9:46:13 AM

Author: Ellen

Date: 7/28/2009 6:58:50 AM

Author: Serg



Karl,


I am strongly disagree .

Consumers can not receive good service and well balanced advices if vendors have not protection from false and vulgar consumers(bias) attacks

Hi Seg,


I have been thinking about what you''ve said here. Some of us have posted how we view David and his site. Because you don''t agree with us, that automatically makes everything we''ve said/feel false? Is that what you''re saying?


I gave a background on my previous jeweler experiences. I then gave examples of what David has done that has fed my cynicism with him. I wasn''t trying to be vindictive or attack him, I was being honest. I was trying to make him understand why I feel the way I do. How can that be ''wrong''?

hi Ellen,

No. If you are not agree with David, if you do not like him and his site, it is not false attake.

I could share you feeling.

But if anybody do statements as

1) David mistreat consumers

2) his diamonds are bad

3) do not buy this diamond from him

Without Any proof, it is false attak

I one give one example. Garry had huge fighting about david photos. garry thought what David use Photoshop. Garry was wrong

I asked Garry send examples wrong information from David site. I did not receive any clear example with what i can agree. I have high respect to Garry.


I do not like Garry, Karl , your style fighting with David becuase Mostly it is emotion without any facts.

I oppose this way of thinking.
I do not have to prove my opinion.
I can express my opinion without proof.

Various opinions do not fight it out with one opinion winning.

This is not science.
This is not a college debating class.
This is not a sport with winners and losers.

This is a public forum where everyone is free to form and express their opinions.

 

[risingsun]

Date: 7/28/2009 10:05:38 AM
Author: Richard Sherwood

Date: 7/28/2009 1:51:07 AM
Author: risingsun

Date: 7/27/2009 11:47:23 PM
Author: Rockdiamond
Rich, I owe you $20 for the hearty belly laugh you gave me before!
Thank you.

Marion- so, first I have to tangle with firefighters- and even seeing that you now force me to get on the wrong side of health professionals? Holy cow, if something of mine is one fire, no one will come help me- then afterwards, I won't be able to get therapy!!

All kidding aside, do you believe comparing this to a group therapy session is a fair and accurate thing to do?

I don't know about you Marion, but I HATE when someone says; 'Trust me' in a business transaction.
In fact, people have at times asked for an appraiser to verify a purchase- or a prior customer they can call to check me out.
I explain to them that if I was to refer them to an appraiser to verify the purchase, or a client to give experiences- it would be tainted as a seller should step back at those times and recommend general methods as opposed to specific parties.


Marion, I also extend the olive branch to you.
I may be....extreme, but there is certainly an element of unity here that needs a little ruffling at times.
While you may not want disruption as a mental health professional, here in an open discussion differences of opinion make it far more interesting, and informative.

I would be happy to offer you individual therapy. I do not think you are ready to be placed into a group setting. There is a difference between an honest and open discussion and being disruptive and acting out. If you want to be informative, try dialing back the rhetoric. I think you would benefit from my class on Assertiveness Skills. Being passive-aggressive isn't an effective method of interpersonal communication. It places others on the defensive and makes you look like the bad guy. If you want to extend the olive branch, please do so by moderating your behavior on this forum. You have not been ruffling feathers, you have been plucking the whole bird naked!! Don't minimize your actions, please. Take responsibility and work toward positive change.

A therapy group, like any other group of people, has standards and norms. Among these norms is dealing with difficult and disruptive people. Many times, the group or society is able to assist outliers in recognizing and moderating their behavior. If the group or society is unable to do so, then more drastic measures may be taken. Read up on your anthropology.

My challenge to you is to work toward sustained growth and change.

I don't know, something about this response really bothers me. I'm trying to pinpoint it. Condescending maybe? Like 'I'm sane, but you need help.'

It's almost on the level of lecturing a child for 'being disruptive and acting out'.

This is the language we use in my profession. It is applied to adults, as well as children. It is meant to be descriptive. I have worked with many Davids during my career. He has an opportunity to reflect upon his actions, which have had such a negative effect on so many posters. I have been trained to observe behavioral patterns and this is how I see it. YMMV.

ETA: I am not offering therapy to RD IRL. Just to make that clear.

ETA2: I do see David as mistreating others on this forum and part of my role, as I see it, is to advocate for these people. It is part of my professional identity and it carries over into my personal value system. That is why I have taken such an active part in this thread.

 

[Moh 10]

The difference in how the two sides view RD is astonishing.
I shouldn't be surprised though.
Evolution has reinforced tribalism; it is deep within our DNA.
We can't help but coagulate into groups, and making the other group wrong makes our group more right.
It applies to politics, religion and any place humans venture.

Evaluating RD's behavior and role here is not a simple thing.
It is nuanced.

Dissenting views ARE healthy for any group, and I do believe RD is competent.
Freedom of speech is always better than suppression of unpopular views.
Challenging the status quo keeps everyone on their toes.

But, IMHO, the way he treats people and the krap he pulls MORE than cancels out his occasional positive technical contribution.
His contempt for diamond education of the public is understandable considering what he sells and how he sells it.
PS threatens his business model.

Frankly, I think Marion is dead on.
The guy has passive-aggressive, victim and manipulation issues that would benefit from professional help - more for his own benefit than ours.

But is this the forum for that? Certainly not!
While it may be inappropriate or even offensive to get this personal about this RD, IMHO his corrosive, destructive and trollish behavior here is vastly more inappropriate and offensive.

It's THAT bad.

 

[Black Jade]

Date: 7/27/2009 11:30:26 PM
Author: Moh 10
Although painful, I think overall this group therapy session has been helpful.

Wow, I wake up and come back to this (very addictive) thread and find that I have actually gotten a marriage proposal! How flattering for a (very) middle-aged lady! Thanks, Rich, you made my morning!

Seriously, it''s nice to be complimented, but I don''t think I have anything to contribute here besides the fact of looking in from the outside and being (I hope) neutral. Or at least, I don''t have the history and I am not passionate about diamonds the way most of you are. However I think that PS is a great site because it has such passionate people who truly, truly care about the stones and also passionately want to be helpful to others. Of course having passion means that you will passionately disagree. But I agree with Moh (again) that this disagreement can be helpful.

Three posts really stuck out among the ones I have just read. I see now where Sergey is coming from when he talks about sickness on PS. Having some knowledge of Russian history (that wasn''t my specialty but I used to be a historian along with being a mom), I think he is saying something of urgent importance about keeping a REAL discussion going including unpopular points of view. Once a group becomes a ''community'' in the real sense and gets (forgive me, I don''t mean to be offensive) ''cozy'' or at least comfortable with each other and are basically in agreement about certain things, its uncomfortable when someone challenges that agreement and that comfort. Of course the challenge may be wrong! But I would pay attention personally if it made me VERY angry. In my life, I have found that when someone says something that makes me furious, it''s always something I need to look at on some level. Even if it turns out that they were incorrect, the fact that I got so mad means that I''m already uncomfortable about something.

I also think that Sergey (and others) are quite right that that thing where you want to ban someone from something, you need to be very careful with that. I wouldn''t say that no one should ever be banned from anything, sometimes some people are a real danger to others but I don''t think that banning is something to be brought up jsut because I personally (or a lot of my friends or in-group) are feeling irritated and annoyed.

I also felt concern reading one of Karl''s posts. I am not for following experts blindly (or I would have gone down to the local Zales and done my shopping, I would not be on this board). But if a group of acknowledged experts, who have never before shown any particular liking for a particular individual, and certainly had never shown any signs of wanting to trick or fool consumers (but quite the opposite) began to come to the defense of the individual that it was pretty clear that they had personal and other issues with and to say, yes, we have our areas where we really don''t agree and I wouldn''t do things his way, but I think this individual is ethical and I believe he is honest--I would not take that as ''rallying around someone'' because they were ''in the trade.'' i would want to carefully consider what was being said even if it meant that some of my previous impressions might have been mistaken ones. I would NOT think that to consider this possibility meant that all the (very valuable in your case, Karl) work that I had done on the board had been for naught, or that people meant that only those in the trade can make a real contribution. (That clearly is not true.) I''m not really talking about Karl''s post I guess anymore, because all along I have sort of noticed a little kind of undercurrent (forgive me if I''m wrong)-- a sort of feeling among some in this community that if maybe, just maybe, RD does not actually have horns and a tail after all, that this would mean that the ''prosumers'' are not valuable members of the community and that that their contribution is not a worthwhile one. And I just don''t see it that way. I have not seen the relevant posts, but I am not completely dense and I have gathered that at some point RD was tactless indeed and that he has offended a large number of people here in one way or the other. But (leaving aside my personal feeling that if someone humbles themselves the way he has done in his last few posts, the possibility that they honestly would like a new start needs to be considered) I have seen people try to point out several times that lack of tact is NOT the same as dishonest business practices and that there can possible two opinions about ASET images, etc --that someone does not have be dishonest because they won''t use them. I think Picasso once said about art that first you needed to learn all the rules and then you needed to learn how they could be broken. I wouldn''t want to take this particular analogy too far, but I don''t think it''s unreasonable to consider the possibility that someone who doesn''t follow the rule book by the letter, yet still has the respect of their peers (at least so far as their work is concerned) may not necessarily be a charlatan.

Of all the posts, Marion''s most surprised me. I''ve never been in group therapy, but I have been in family therapy. We have some fairly serious problems in the teenage years and even after, with one of my sons. And the big thing that was stressed, not just by one therapist but by several, when we did family therapy was that when there was a disruptive family memberl, the member needed to look at his behavior, yes, but the entire family needed to look at what that one person''s disruption was revealing about the dysfunction in the whole family system, not just shut that member down. It was a miserably uncomfortable thing to have to do, but I do think our family has benefitted and now functions much better because we were willing to do that and not just turn against my ''bad'' son. Which bring me back to Moh''s remark that I quoted at the top of this (very very long, forgive me) screed. I do think that this painful and sometimes acrimonious discussion that keeps wavering and tottering from one point to another with people leaving and people coming back and people''s feelings being hurt and people being misunderstood and then explaining themselves better--I do think this discussion can really be for the good of the community in the end. And I do think this is a valuable community. Again, I have to ask for forgiveness and forbearance in advance for all the things I''m SURE I have got wrong.