A Discussion On Bias

[Rockdiamond]

Bias.
What is it?

If you were responsible for hiring people, are you forced to hire someone you don''t ilike?
Of course not.
How about if all the people of a certain ethinc background happen to just fit into the mold of what you do not like?
See any patterns developing here?

 

[risingsun]

I apologize to those posters who have been offended by my recent remarks about David''s behavior, mental health status and his motivations as expressed from my professional perspective. I was trying to make a point, but upon reflection, it wasn''t the best option from which to do so. All future interactions will be as a consumer and I hope this will calm these particular waters. I don''t want to add to the already high level of emotions on this thread.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Thank you Marian.
Of course you deserve a second chance.
Do others?

 

[Lula]

Date: 7/28/2009 2:16:27 PM
Author: sofi

Date: 7/28/2009 1:49:10 PM

Author: risingsun

Date: 7/28/2009 1:43:28 PM

Author: Rockdiamond

Date: 7/28/2009 1:08:13 PM

Author: risingsun

Since you asked, Black Jade, I am a Licensed Professional Counselor with the privilege to practice independently in my state. I have 20 years of experience in my field. I have worked with families, individuals and groups. Each member of the family needs to be committed to change, regardless how painful the process becomes. In your situation, this was able to happen. There are clients who are not able to work through their issues in therapy. They usually self terminate. I do not terminate them without a lot of thought, peer supervision and/or clinical supervision. I have attempted to ask David to look at himself and his behaviors, which have been disruptive to this forum, since his return. There are better ways to communicate than the methods he has chosen. You don't have to like me or my comments, but I felt that I could not stand by and do nothing.


To David: Please do not miscontrue that my comments resemble a therapy session. These are my observations.

Black Jade- you have your second marriage proposal.


HI Marian,

How about this...everyone knows who I am.

You claim to be a mental health professional- of course we don't know that for sure.

Why don't you list your real name and we can ask some of the people you work with to comment on what you've been doing in this thread and if you relating your profession with my posts is ethical, or even legal?


Also Marion., would you care to post some of the neutral comments you've made about me?

You've said you were neutral before.

I can only remember nasty attacks coming from you.

I don't respond well to threats. I'm done with you, David.

I have read this thread from start to finish. As a relative newcomer I cannot take sides, although I am glad to see that others are bothered by the unneccessarily rude remarks made towards RD on this and other threads. I am really puzzled by this particular one, though, because I read and reread the quoted part and could not find any evidence of a 'threat.'

Yup, the bolded statement is the reason that RD elicits such anger, IMHO. Another attempt by RD to push others' buttons. I'm sorry if I sound harsh, but I'm surprised so many of you can't see that RD does this.

 

[ChunkyCushionLover]

Date: 7/25/2009 1:29:25 AM
Author: Richard Sherwood
I feel like I am an a unique position to comment on this subject because I am neither a consumer nor a vendor, but an independent appraiser who is known as a consumer advocate for the past 10 years but was also formerly a vendor for the 20 years before that.

In other words I think I'm in a position to see both sides of the fence that not many here do.

There is no doubt that the prosumers on this forum have been a big help to consumers in finding beautiful diamonds. Some work tirelessly and diligently at it. Take Ellen's 22,000 posts and Gypsy's 14,000 posts in a relatively short period of time for example. I've been on this forum since 2002 and have yet to rack up 5,000 posts, and I consider myself a fairly prolific poster. Their dedication is to be commended.

In the same breath, I am well aware of the history with both David of Diamonds by Lauren and Judah from Excell Diamonds. In fact, I was one of the Pricescope members who asked Andrey to extend a general amnesty to them (and many others) who were (in my opinion) given a raw deal in the previous Pricescope administration (God bless you Leonid and Irina, I love you but you were mighty heavy handed). I'm so glad that Andrey extended this amnesty to David, Judah and others (such as Richard Wise in the Colored Stone section). This forum is much richer for their input. These are serious experts in their fields, and the loss of their input was a sad day for Pricescope, in my opinion. I am deeply grateful for Andrey's open-mindedness in allowing them back in.

I find David's and Judah's attempts to show the vendor's side of things and to buck the general Pricescope trend (such as David in regards to cut) courageous and refreshing.

As much as consumers and prosumers would like diamonds to fall into a nice, quantifiable set of 'boxes' so they can more easily make decisions, the truth is that some of the allure and beauty of diamonds falls outside of those boxes. I applaud David's efforts to emphasize this even though it makes him unpopular here to some of the members. What they regard as efforts to pass shoddy merchandise I regard as an attempt to buck the trend and show that there are a multitude of beautiful diamonds which break the mold.

Okay, so maybe these aren't 'safe' choices. But that doesn't mean they are ugly, or wrong. It just means that they will appeal to sellers and buyers who are willing to trust their eyes over a categorized set of numbers. I happen to be one such buyer, as I own many gemstones which don't fit in the 'safe' categories, but are simply beautiful. Often I have gotten very good deals on them for just this very reason.

One of the things that bothers me the most is what I consider the unfair treatment of vendors by prosumers here on Pricescope. Not just member vendors, but vendors outside the Pricescope world. I know this is not a popular topic with this being a 'consumer' site, but the truth is that vendors both here and outside Pricescope have suffered many injustices through the harsh criticism of Pricescope prosumers. I know for a fact that many sales of perfectly beautiful diamonds have been 'kaboshed' by the negative criticism of Pricescope prosumers who really didn't know what they were talking about. They were speaking from the base of knowledge they had at that time, but that knowledge fell woefully short of what an 'expert' should be advising a consumer. I say 'expert', because to the unknowing consumer the authoritative words of a Pricescope prosumer sound 'expert' in their opinion.

Part of my dismay in regards to this is because I see both sides of the fence. I see the plight of vendors who work their hearts out to help their client, finding them perfectly gorgeous stones at reasonable prices through considerable effort and expense on their part. I see them making a sale, and satisfying their customer. Then I see that diamond being 'shot down' by prosumers for often relatively minor reasons (62% depth, good polish, figures slightly out of ideal, etc, etc, etc) with alternate recommendations being made for other vendors stones (after a consumer has already purchased the diamond, and was thrilled with it!).

I think if some of the prosumers here could see the heartache that their words cause they would think twice before 'dissing' stones which in real life are probably perfectly gorgeous, purchased from an integrity vendor doing the best that he can for his client.

I know this is probably not a popular topic on a 'consumer' site, but I feel like fair should be fair all the way around. I think vendors deserve fairness, just as consumers do. I think that many vendors have been unfairly and shoddily treated on this site. My post here is made in an effort to try and shock some of the prosumers here out of their 'anti-vendor' attitudes, and make them realize that they might just not know as much as a vendor who deals with diamonds on a daily basis does.

What's the solution?

I believe we're seeing it take place here, within the principle of free speech, where everybody states their opinion, and then it is left to the individual to decide. I don't think anyone should be shut down or shouted down or black-balled. I think everyone has the right to put forth their opinion, and I am so glad to see this Pricescope administration allowing it without undue censorship or banning.

Richard,


I like the way you qualified yourself and gave an overview of some of the history here, your post was well thought out and highly informative to me. I was unaware of the history of this site and some of its vendors.To give you a little background about myself I have completed 6 years of research in Physical Chemistry specifically in Solid State Nuclear Magnetic resonance(SSNMR) and have spent most of that time doing computer simulations, crunching long equations with up to 15 unknowns, synthesizing crystalline compounds and then using SSNMR to analyze their magnetic and chemical properties in a quantitative manner. A great deal of my time was spent solving multi equation, multiple unknown problems and estimating and then confirming by experiment the 2D and 3D NMR spectral appearance of compounds by simulation and regression analysis. In simple terms I was extracting physical parameters from systems with multiple unknowns by looking at trends in a series of compounds and consideration of symmetry constraints. I have three publications in top peer reviewed Chemistry journals(where I am primary author) on extracting parameters quantititatively from a series of crystalline compounds and two more being made ready for publication.

If I could make a diamond parallel instead of optimizing Brillance, Scintillation and Fire I was optimizing the physical parameters of crystalline compounds to have the prettiest 2D NMR spectra(easiest to interpret) and then extracting magnetic and chemical properties from these spectra

Given this background and some basic physics in optics I highly enjoy analyzing diamonds by the numbers and when I first came here two months ago I was very frustrated by the lack of the complete picture on diamond certificates especially for fancy shapes. I spoke to a lot of vendors locally, on the internet, and finally found Pricescope. I quickly became obsessed with the wealth of information on this site and how friendly, knowledgeable and well educated some of the vendors were here. Given my Fiancé’s preference for a Cushion cut diamond I brought a scientific background to the problem of choosing the best cushion for our taste. The numbers were extremely important to me and I wanted to extract as much information from them as possible. I was constantly frustrated by posters comments "you can't judge a cushion by the numbers".

In my quest for the perfect diamond I wanted to optimize both spread and optics in a quantitative way and had a burning desire to understand the limits of what was possible.
This has been partially satisfied(albeit difficult) as I now understand some of the cutter’s constraints and the dependence upon the crown height, table size and pavilion angles to achieve certain looks.

I monopolized the time of several PS vendors here for over a month (Bob at Whiteflash, Mark at ERD and Jon at GOG) and each of them fielded many, many of my questions even though it was becoming clear they might not make the sale. I would trust them all whether they be “Old School” like Mark at ERD and Bob at WF who trust their eyes more than reflector images or more of the “New School” like Jon at GOG who uses reflector technology and videos to highlight the slightest differences in stones. All three of these gemologists are experts on cushions but it is the way they educate, sell diamonds and explain their selection process. I have learned the most from Jon at GOG regarding old mine cuts and from Mark at ERD on cushion brilliants.

Through all of their advice and opinions I have a much greater understanding of the optics of these stones and a far greater respect for their knowledge and experience. I can now make a lot of reasonable assumptions based on the numbers. I can avoid calling in virtual inventory that has a small chance of having well above average optical properties against its peers. Now instead of someone saying “You can’t judge a fancy shape by its numbers just trust me” I can list some safe ranges for consumers who want to use an outside vendor or drop shipper who won’t provide an ASET or other images.

I was once blown away in admiration by this comment by Mark at ERD:

“This cutter’s Excellent Polish VG Symmetry stones have a tendency to have a fish eye girdle reflection. The VG grade is given to the shallower stones of this type and I would avoid them. (referring to modern 8 main Cushion Brilliants) Since I know how picky you are I wouldn’t choose any of this cutter’s EX VG cushions as you will not be satisfied. You should choose only the EX symmetry ones in this case from this cutter and subset of stones. Therefore of the list you sent me I would only choose this one to call in.”

We had a long thread here a little while ago on here about not being able to tell the difference between good and excellent polish and symmetry for fancy shapes by the naked eye, RD was claiming this to be true. Well in this case that advice would not serve my interests. In fact if I had RD pull in the Very Good symmetry stone he probably would have said “WOW beautiful (fill in fancy adjectives)” and it would have been true. In fact all the stones from this cutter are spectacular (even the Ex polish Very Good Symmetry) as they have very exact cutting standards but IN COMPARISON to an Excellent Excellent stone of this type the difference is significant enough to notice especially to my eyes. I also know that since this fish eye reflection is relatively minor in this case most experts “expecially the RD type” would say this was a beautiful bright stones and leave it at that. Afterall they are trying to make a sale and its not like the diamond isn’t very beautiful it just may not be exactly the BEST choice for the consumer and the consumer may not educate themselves enough to ever take it any further.

Luckily posters have learned that referring customers to Mark at ERD or Jon at GOG would ensure they got an education if they wanted to and at the very least a stone that was similar on here to the pictures of ones that probably brought them looking for a cushion in the first place.

For example for colorless cushion brilliants (antique, modern, Square Cushion HA, 4main 8 main etc.) the best performers for chunky flashes and light performance often have tables in the 52 – 60% range and depths in the 62 – 69% range. For someone as picky as I am the very best ones have even narrower ranges(63%+ depth) but I wouldn’t dare try to impose this as hard and fast rules as it would eliminate a large majority of the stones. There is a lot more to this and if every stone had a complete helium scan or Sarin than I could also point to pavilion angles, crown height and other more important parameters but initially the screening needs to be done from the certificate. One day I hope it will be common practice for cutters to run a Sarin and IS/Microscope Image/ASET on all stones and provide this information even before the stones are shipped but the business hasn’t gotten there yet. I also hope that accurate computer simulations for all fancy shapes can be done just from the information available on the sarin (like .gem files) even before the actual stone is shipped. Hopefully equipment can be made cheaper and optimized to make this a routine practice and something competitive cutters must provide.
The consumer can actually direct a vendor to not only their preferences but how to find them. I will be putting together a treatise of cushion parameters with pictures of stones and commentary and would like to release it to the Pricescope community or create a website to display this information. Then consumers here can tell vendors “I want this look” and this is the relevant information on cut parameters please try to find me one with similar number
There are other posters here like CharmyPoo, BostonJeff, CehrahBerah who have gone through this painfully slow process of understanding chunky cushion cuts just like I have and if we didn't have vendors and prosumers telling us initially "you just can't judge a cushion by the numbers” it would result in less hassle for the vendors who wouldn’t have to call in as many stones. You definitely CAN judge cushion cuts by the numbers but you have to delve deeper into WHICH NUMBERS are important and many of them are not on the certificate. Inferences can be made from the basic information on a certificate in many cases especially if other stones from the same cutter have been seen before. You as an appraiser have seen many stones and are probably able to offer a subjective opinion on the Price/Optics ratio for many cuts of stones and have your own opinions and preferences on the best compromise but most consumers don’t have that luxury.

Now I have never said that stones outside of the ranges are ALWAYS going to look inferior but they are FAR MORE LIKELY to be inferior. In addition the nicest stones in this category I have seen will still outperform the best outliers. So unless the consumer really wants a bargain(and is getting one) by choosing an “non ideal” stone why should the lack of information prevent them from getting the best for their money. If all vendors were to find great outliers and compare them to an “ideal” stone and show the consumer the differences in optics and price differences as you have done, I would have no trouble with the “RD” approach but this is rarely the case.

It doesn't bother me in the slightest that there are many stones that fall outside these ranges. If I ever get into this business and have an opportunity to view thousands of stones I will still apply a quantitative approach to diamond selections first and then select the best ones by eye and reflector images. I would also push understanding the optics to the highest degree and get a Sarin on all “unique” performers so that I can quantitatively database stones with the best optics to determine trends. I bet the outliers have certain combinations of angles that produce a particular look, I know Jon at GOG uses this approach to optimize fancy cuts and to develop his signature lines.

Overall the reason I dislike RDs posts and website so much is the following:

1) His website and comments here illustrate that the consumer will have a severely diminished power of comparison or choice in his store or site and he would like to extend that to pricescope colorless diamonds sections as well.
2) He has a lot of knowledge he doesn’t want to share with us or more likely is too lazy to do so. He gets a much bigger rise out of instigating here and just stating his opinion without backing it up by example. This is similar to his website which is not written on a technical level. It requires a lot more time and effort to gather proof and support your opinion than to just give it and he doesn’t want to make this effort most of the time.
3) We often writes his posts and replies expediently and doesn’t read carefully what others have said.
4) His posts are often rambling banter with a lack of organization.
5) He is far more likely to try to take things on a personal level and turn a scientific trend or argument into something of “Opinion Versus Opinion” to try to discount what has already been established as a trend. Someone who doesn’t understand the nuances of what is being discussed and debated by experts may take his opinion as fact and be misled.
6) He often says “I don’t have time to do a completely organized review of a topic or submit a journal article” yet he spends countless hours on here defending himself and writing inflammatory posts on a personal level.

I have no personal history with RD except to say his site was one of the first I looked at when considering buying diamonds online. I am so greatful I continued to search more and didn’t pull the trigger on one of his rings which looked like a bargain at the time. I am scientifically minded and I leave the psychological stuff to other people especially the women here. I don’t think he should be banned or censured but if he continues to offer unsupported opinions especially in the colorless diamond areas of this site I would hope that ALL posters here would be unified in pointing out his bias. I don’t mind a dissenting opinion and I love the “devil’s advocate” but he has not done enough to provide proof of his opinions and organized his thoughts so we can add reasonable exceptions and caveats to the rules presented for “ideal” diamonds.

I am waiting for RD’s new treatise on colored and colorless Fancy shapes but I’m not going to be holding my breath.

CCL

 

[Lula]

Date: 7/28/2009 2:46:01 PM
Author: Rockdiamond
Thank you Marian.

Of course you deserve a second chance.

Do others?

Seems to me you're on about your 90th second chance, RD, but whatever...

 

[Serg]

Date: 7/28/2009 2:42:36 PM
Author: risingsun
I apologize to those posters who have been offended by my recent remarks about David''s behavior, mental health status and his motivations as expressed from my professional perspective. I was trying to make a point, but upon reflection, it wasn''t the best option from which to do so. All future interactions will be as a consumer and I hope this will calm these particular waters. I don''t want to add to the already high level of emotions on this thread.

Great post, Marian! I highly respect it. Such post are very rare on PS yet.

Thanks.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Hi Sara, you don't know me, we've never spoken.
But I am a real person, with real feelings.

A large part of this problem is that it's more difficult to dismiss the opinion of someone who was trained to grade diamonds by Harry Winston, and spent the last 30+ years involved in the diamond business.
I seem to make this worse for a lot of you because in addition to the fact my credentials are so strong, I've spent the last 10 years writing about diamonds on the internet.
So I'm rather well prepared for these types of debates.

Maybe CCL can put together some posts, and we can all understand everything about his profession.
I can not sum up 30+ years in a number of posts- or even a series of articles.

Anyway, you do seem fair minded, so I appeal to your as a person.

 

[bowral1]

Date: 7/28/2009 2:47:56 PM
Author: sarap333

Date: 7/28/2009 2:16:27 PM
Author: sofi

Date: 7/28/2009 1:49:10 PM

Author: risingsun

Date: 7/28/2009 1:43:28 PM

Author: Rockdiamond

Date: 7/28/2009 1:08:13 PM

Author: risingsun

Since you asked, Black Jade, I am a Licensed Professional Counselor with the privilege to practice independently in my state. I have 20 years of experience in my field. I have worked with families, individuals and groups. Each member of the family needs to be committed to change, regardless how painful the process becomes. In your situation, this was able to happen. There are clients who are not able to work through their issues in therapy. They usually self terminate. I do not terminate them without a lot of thought, peer supervision and/or clinical supervision. I have attempted to ask David to look at himself and his behaviors, which have been disruptive to this forum, since his return. There are better ways to communicate than the methods he has chosen. You don''t have to like me or my comments, but I felt that I could not stand by and do nothing.


To David: Please do not miscontrue that my comments resemble a therapy session. These are my observations.

Black Jade- you have your second marriage proposal.


HI Marian,

How about this...everyone knows who I am.

You claim to be a mental health professional- of course we don''t know that for sure.

Why don''t you list your real name and we can ask some of the people you work with to comment on what you''ve been doing in this thread and if you relating your profession with my posts is ethical, or even legal?


Also Marion., would you care to post some of the neutral comments you''ve made about me?

You''ve said you were neutral before.

I can only remember nasty attacks coming from you.

I don''t respond well to threats. I''m done with you, David.

I have read this thread from start to finish. As a relative newcomer I cannot take sides, although I am glad to see that others are bothered by the unneccessarily rude remarks made towards RD on this and other threads. I am really puzzled by this particular one, though, because I read and reread the quoted part and could not find any evidence of a ''threat.''

Yup, the bolded statement is the reason that RD elicits such anger, IMHO. Another attempt by RD to push others'' buttons. I''m sorry if I sound harsh, but I''m surprised so many of you can''t see that RD doe this.

Sara i hear ya . . . . but does anyone have a big brother or sister? Did they push your buttons? Why did you let them? Has anything changed? Replace your sibling with RD; don’t let him push your buttons! For all those only children out there I can understand why you don’t know how to handler RD, you must have years of experience in sibling rivalry to know all the techniques.

 

[bowral1]

Date: 7/28/2009 3:05:38 PM
Author: Rockdiamond
Hi Sara, you don''t know me, we''ve never spoken.
But I am a real person, with real feelings.

A large part of this problem is that it''s more difficult to dismiss the opinion of someone who was trained to grade diamonds by Harry Winston, and spent the last 30+ years involved in the diamond business.
I seem to make this worse for a lot of you because in addition to the fact my credentials are so strong, I''ve spent the last 10 years writing about diamonds on the internet.
So I''m rather well prepared for these types of debates.

Maybe CCL can put together some posts, and we can all understand everything about his profession.
I can not sum up 30+ years in a number of posts- or even a series of articles.

Anyway, you do seem fair minded, so I appeal to your as a person.

RD sounds like you are very knowledgeable and that is great.

But your voice isn’t being heard when you are “pushing everyone’s buttons”.

People get so angry at you they don’t hear what you are saying. So your knowledge is wasted.

 

[Lorelei]

CCL, images are essential in order to judge a cushion or any other fancy shape properly, numbers at best only give a chalk outline of the stone and really do not give enough info particularly online for the consumer to know if a particular cushion is exactly what they are looking for. Numbers are extremely helpful yes and can indicate whether a stone is worth further evaluation to some extent, but images are still so important when buying sight unseen to prove how well it all works together.

 

[bowral1]

PS CCL, I am very impressed with your credentials too! I just thought you liked cushion cuts like me, but it seems you are way more knowledge than just your average bear.

 

[Black Jade]

Date: 7/28/2009 2:42:36 PM
Author: risingsun
I apologize to those posters who have been offended by my recent remarks about David''s behavior, mental health status and his motivations as expressed from my professional perspective. I was trying to make a point, but upon reflection, it wasn''t the best option from which to do so. All future interactions will be as a consumer and I hope this will calm these particular waters. I don''t want to add to the already high level of emotions on this thread.

Thank you for your apology, Marian; I also respect this a lot.
I hope I was not unduly harsh towards you--I was quite angry, for which I also apologize and even when one is not, any nuance gets lost so easily online.

 

[Black Jade]

Date: 7/28/2009 2:47:56 PM
Author: sarap333

Date: 7/28/2009 2:16:27 PM
Author: sofi

Date: 7/28/2009 1:49:10 PM

Author: risingsun

Date: 7/28/2009 1:43:28 PM

Author: Rockdiamond

Date: 7/28/2009 1:08:13 PM

Author: risingsun

Since you asked, Black Jade, I am a Licensed Professional Counselor with the privilege to practice independently in my state. I have 20 years of experience in my field. I have worked with families, individuals and groups. Each member of the family needs to be committed to change, regardless how painful the process becomes. In your situation, this was able to happen. There are clients who are not able to work through their issues in therapy. They usually self terminate. I do not terminate them without a lot of thought, peer supervision and/or clinical supervision. I have attempted to ask David to look at himself and his behaviors, which have been disruptive to this forum, since his return. There are better ways to communicate than the methods he has chosen. You don''t have to like me or my comments, but I felt that I could not stand by and do nothing.


To David: Please do not miscontrue that my comments resemble a therapy session. These are my observations.

Black Jade- you have your second marriage proposal.


HI Marian,

How about this...everyone knows who I am.

You claim to be a mental health professional- of course we don''t know that for sure.

Why don''t you list your real name and we can ask some of the people you work with to comment on what you''ve been doing in this thread and if you relating your profession with my posts is ethical, or even legal?


Also Marion., would you care to post some of the neutral comments you''ve made about me?

You''ve said you were neutral before.

I can only remember nasty attacks coming from you.

I don''t respond well to threats. I''m done with you, David.

I have read this thread from start to finish. As a relative newcomer I cannot take sides, although I am glad to see that others are bothered by the unneccessarily rude remarks made towards RD on this and other threads. I am really puzzled by this particular one, though, because I read and reread the quoted part and could not find any evidence of a ''threat.''

Yup, the bolded statement is the reason that RD elicits such anger, IMHO. Another attempt by RD to push others'' buttons. I''m sorry if I sound harsh, but I''m surprised so many of you can''t see that RD does this.

Am I misreading something here? The remarks which are highlighted in bold type were not by RD.

 

[Serg]

CCL,

I like your post very much, I agree with most your statements.
but i disagree with statement what you or any other person can grade Cushion just by numbers( if we are speaking about proportions)
I am working in Cut grading field ( based on 3D model and computer modeling) more than 12 years, I am project leader such projects as Helium scanner, Diamcalc; MSS, ...; I am working on Cushion optimization more than 2 years( you can check last results here www.octonus.com.oct/projects/movies2.phtml).
based on all my experience in this field Nobody could grade Cushion light performance by proportions only. In our research finaly we all times use comparison by human observations. same for round cut with nontraditional proportions.

 

[Black Jade]

Date: 7/28/2009 2:22:08 PM
Author: denverappraiser
My how this thread has digressed. It’s gone from an important and interesting discussion on bias by advisors to one of whether David’s NY manners and the fact that he disagrees with the generally accepted approach used here to select diamonds is grounds to eject him. It’s a pity. The first few pages of this thread were really good. Less so the last few.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

I think I''m with DenverAppraiser here and rather quickly losing hope that the thread is going to ever return to topic.

 

[risingsun]

I appreciate your comments, Serg and Black Jade. Self-reflection is good for the soul.

 

[tallchickbarbara]

(I hope to God this doesn''t blow up in my face... here goes...)


So this older, white haired man walks into a jewelry store on a Friday night with a beautiful young gal at his side. He tells the jeweler he''s looking for a special ring for his girlfriend. The jeweler grins, looks through his stock and brings out a $5,000 ring and shows it to the man. The old guys says, "I don''t think you understand, I want something very special" with a wink and a nod. At that statement, the jeweler goes to his special stock, locked in a vault in the back of the store and brings another ring over. "Here''s a stunning 4 carat ring at only $40,000.00", the jeweler says. The young lady gasps, her eyes sparkle and her whole body starts to tremble with excitement. The old man sees this, then says confidently, "We''ll take it." The jeweler asks how the man would like to pay for it, to which the old guy responds "By check. But I know you need to make sure my check is good, so I''ll write it now and you can call the bank Monday to verify the funds and I''ll be by to pick the ring up Monday afternoon".

That Monday morning, a very frustrated, upset jeweler calls the old man after calling on the check. "Sir, I called your bank. There''s not a single dollar in that account." "I know", says the old man, "but can you imagine the weekend I had?"



Just thought this might add a little laughter to an otherwise tense thread... I''ve got more, if needed...

 

[diagem]

Date: 7/28/2009 3:29:30 PM
Author: Serg
CCL,
I like your post very much, I agree with most your statements.
but i disagree with statement what your or any other person can grade Cushion just by numbers( if we are speaking about proportions)
I am working in Cut grading field ( based on 3D model and computer modeling) more than 12 years, I am project leader such projects as Helium scanner, Diamcalc; MSS, ...; I am working on Cushion optimization more than 2 years( you can check last results here www.octonus.com.oct/projects/movies2.phtml).
based on all my experience in this field Nobody could grade Cushion light performance by proportions only. In our research finaly we all times use comparison by human observations. same for round cut with nontraditional proportions.

Ok..., finally a subject that''s worth logging on to..., CUSHION CUTS...

CCL..., when you limit yourself to the scope of one or two embodiment (shape, proportions, faceting arrangement and angles etc...) you might get ''luckier" as to judging a Cushion Cut via numbers alone..., but it would be still rare...

I agree with Serg and Lorelei on this one....

 

[Black Jade]

Something I learned recently that was interesting--not sure whether or not it applies. At a social event recently I was talking to criminal trial lawyer. She started talking about eyewitness testimony and how it is at one and the same time the evidence that a jury is mostly likely to give weight to and also the evidence that is least likely to be reliable. She said that in the case of violent crimes, such as muggings, 9 times out of 10 or even more, right after the mugging, the victim cannot give any useful description of the perpetrator. They cannot even say if he/she is tall or short and cops, she said, will try if at all possible to do a drive through the neighborhood with the victim immediately to try to get them to recognize the criminal while they are wearing the same clothes, because the victim will recognize the ''red hooded sweatshirt'', but not the person wearing it.

She said that this inability to recognize the criminal becomes exponentially greater when the criminal and victim are of different races. She said that the victim is much more likely to recognize the voice, if the person said something and that their memory can be jogged years later by some similar circumstance in which they meet the perpetrator, but that unless the criminal has some really distinguishing mark, such as a missing finger, something on that level, they just cannot remember them. Most criminals are actually found, she said, not from descriptions but because they are stopped with the goods on them or some other accidental thing--in fact, she said that most criminals are not found, for crimes like muggings and you have to hope the guy does something else that he gets caught for, like in the act.

The police have to be extra careful in these cases because victims, not remembering, are easily influenced by anything that ''helps'' them to ''remember'' and then become absolutely convinced it is true. For instance, someone is mugged. They know that they are mugged by a person who looks Hispanic to them, as much as they can tell. You bring them to a line up and there is only one person in it with an appearance that could be from that background. the person can easily become convincedm with a little prodding that that person in the lineup was THAT person, and then you can win the court case easily because you have an eyewitness who is very convincing because they are positive they are telling the truth, and the more they repeat it, the more convinced they are of it, whether it is true or not.

This must seem awfully far from any point, but I sometimes wonder how much I can be influenced to see things I didn''t initially see and taught to think that certain things are true that are not, perhaps, objectively true. I have been ''learning'' about diamonds but I know I am very influenced by PS and I sometimes wonder, if I''d run across one in a vaccuum, would I think that H& A round brilliants were incredibly more beautiful than anything else? I''m always interested in those tests that are done where they take a lot of consumers who haven''t ever been influenced and don''t tell them anything about the specs of diamonds, and some large number of them end up choosing the M color as the prettiest, over the D color. I know I don''t have that study exactly right, but you know what I mean. I liked having the tools on this board when I made my choices of diamonds to buy and certainly got stones that were much more beautiful than anyone else that I know, but sometimes I wonder--Teenage boys can be mean, and I lectured my sons like crazy about having done this, but once they did and a group of their friends did an ''experiment'' where they set their friends up on blind dates, told them they were going to set them up and asked if they''d rather go out with the ''tall blonde'' or the ''short brunette. '' Then they showed them both girls in question and got a terrific kick (this is the mean part) about the fact that the ''tall blonde'' was a girl that they as teenagers didn''t consider the most attractive, while the ''short brunette'' was what they at that time called ''hot''.

 

[Serg]

Date: 7/28/2009 3:29:30 PM
Author: Serg

CCL,

I like your post very much, I agree with most your statements.
but i disagree with statement what you or any other person can grade Cushion just by numbers( if we are speaking about proportions)
I am working in Cut grading field ( based on 3D model and computer modeling) more than 12 years, I am project leader such projects as Helium scanner, Diamcalc; MSS, ...; I am working on Cushion optimization more than 2 years( you can check last results here www.octonus.com.oct/projects/movies2.phtml).
based on all my experience in this field Nobody could grade Cushion light performance by proportions only. In our research finaly we all times use comparison by human observations. same for round cut with nontraditional proportions.

Sorry for missprint in link( I use phone now and can not copy links from notebook)
Correct link is www.octonus.com/oct/projects/movies2.phtml

 

[Rockdiamond]

Black jade- you are indeed an amazing person.

I'd like to add that many of the points I've made here regarding diamonds, and how to look at them are more general- that they relate to other sellers- not just me.
If I regret something from this thread, it's that my points are somehow lost in all the personal attacks.
Even though I specicfcially responded to Marian's post, she conspicuously ignores that- yet does take the time to thank or excuse herself with others.
Nor has Storm responded
I hate to admit this- as I am a very positive minded person- I'd like to believe that good is dominant in our personalities- but serg may be right about sick. And you may be right this thread will never result in the people who can't seem to allow for another's point of view to do so....or another positive outcome.


Plus we just had an appointment cancel due to the PS mental health diagnosis....hehehe

 

[Black Jade]

Date: 7/28/2009 3:50:30 PM
Author: BarbaraP

(I hope to God this doesn''t blow up in my face... here goes...)


So this older, white haired man walks into a jewelry store on a Friday night with a beautiful young gal at his side. He tells the jeweler he''s looking for a special ring for his girlfriend. The jeweler grins, looks through his stock and brings out a $5,000 ring and shows it to the man. The old guys says, ''I don''t think you understand, I want something very special'' with a wink and a nod. At that statement, the jeweler goes to his special stock, locked in a vault in the back of the store and brings another ring over. ''Here''s a stunning 4 carat ring at only $40,000.00'', the jeweler says. The young lady gasps, her eyes sparkle and her whole body starts to tremble with excitement. The old man sees this, then says confidently, ''We''ll take it.'' The jeweler asks how the man would like to pay for it, to which the old guy responds ''By check. But I know you need to make sure my check is good, so I''ll write it now and you can call the bank Monday to verify the funds and I''ll be by to pick the ring up Monday afternoon''.

That Monday morning, a very frustrated, upset jeweler calls the old man after calling on the check. ''Sir, I called your bank. There''s not a single dollar in that account.'' ''I know'', says the old man, ''but can you imagine the weekend I had?''



Just thought this might add a little laughter to an otherwise tense thread... I''ve got more, if needed...

Well, it made ME laugh.

 

[stone-cold11]

Come on David, I don''t think it is very sporting to continue digging at someone who has already apologize for it, right?

 

[Rockdiamond]

Stone- when someone comes on, calls themselves a mental health professional and proceeds to critique your personality- and subsequently forgets to apologize directly to you, then you can be sporting.

 

[Amethyste]

Date: 7/28/2009 4:02:20 PM
Author: Rockdiamond


Plus we just had an appointment cancel due to the PS mental health diagnosis....hehehe

That wasn't really necessary eh? Sometimes, you have to be the person to just let it go and move on... but hey who am I to say, I don't know much about diamonds. i heavily rely on my eyes to judge them. That may be why my work is in the artistic field.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Come on AM- a little humor to lighten the atmosphere?

 

[stone-cold11]

Date: 7/28/2009 4:22:34 PM
Author: Rockdiamond
Stone- when someone comes on, calls themselves a mental health professional and proceeds to critique your personality- and subsequently forgets to apologize directly to you, then you can be sporting.

Well, it''s your reputation that you are ruining. Not my problem.

 

[lisa1.01fvs1]

Date: 7/27/2009 4:52:38 AM
Author: Serg

there were different parts of communities on PS. now AGS&H&A part is most strongest , this part of PS community does not happy see any other opinion .

I was very happy with PS 3-5 years ago. I was welcome on PS. We had nice discussions on technical issues .
I am not welcome more. When I am trying publish in last years My opinion on PS about ASG system, ''ideal diamonds'', vendors tricks who sale ''''
ideal diamonds'' I have very aggressive feedback from different levels of PS communities in different ways ( by posts, by private emails, by private calls, my private meetings .) It is very high pressure for me , it eats a lot of time . I can not spend so many time to defense my position , it is reason why my posts are more and more rare on PS.

I become PS dissident

Last examples:
1) ASG Platinum System
2) Infinity I1 diamonds

If I publish my opinion about GIA cut grade system , PS community is happy. nobody say what i break any rules. But when I touched ASG or PS ''ideal diamonds''
vendors I immediately message as:
1) You has not rights publish it because you are trade( You are AGS competitor)
2) You break PS rules
3) You should not publish about one vendor only, You SHOULD COMPARE different PS vendors and give examples from outside PS too( for example HoF,..). ( Sorry it is to much work for me. Why should I do it free of charge?)
4) please publish about EGL, IGI, HoF GOG,..
6) You are too negative, you need follow American style, be more polite and nice.( But I am barbarian and I am proud in this )
7) You are pro GOG( seems these persons did not read my 2-3 years old posts)

others and others by emails, calls, posts. PS is not comfortable place for me more. Early I was very happy to spend time in PS


In beginning PS was very innovative site, PS community was open for new ideas. Now a lot of ''new experts'' have vision what they know ENOUGH about cut, what Best Safe diamonds are most important for consumers ( ''if you buy ASG0 , H&A from PS vendor you can be sure in Highest performance, quality, service,..'')


PS community protects itself from experts as me, PS protects current status quo( current safe position)
Is good balance for PS between freedom and responsibility ?
I do not think so.

I Think it is good just for person who can not except what ASG0&H&A&ASET is just:
1) Simplification in cut grading ( it is just cheapest way now to receive safe and good result for consumer)
2) first big step in understanding cut performance ( a lot of other steps should come latter)

Sergey,

I have been following your posts with much interest.

You are my favorite barbarian by far, lol

perhaps followed by Richard as a close second

(no offense!!)

The above parts especially.

I will have to go back and read your statements on AGS/ASET/IS, reflector tech. etc. as rudimentary in the analysis of cut performance.

I know they are considered the gold standard here.

I do hope you remain on PS for those of us interested in learning about the ''other'' steps in understanding cut performance.

Bias is normal and the way of things.

I expect it.

 

[Ellen]

Date: 7/28/2009 10:25:29 AM
Author: Serg


hi Ellen,
No. If you are not agree with David, if you do not like him and his site, it is not false attake.
I could share you feeling.
But if anybody do statements as
1) David mistreat consumers
2) his diamonds are bad
3) do not buy this diamond from him
Without Any proof, it is false attak
I one give one example. Garry had huge fighting about david photos. garry thought what David use Photoshop. Garry was wrong
I asked Garry send examples wrong information from David site. I did not receive any clear example with what i can agree. I have high respect to Garry.

I do not like Garry, Karl , your style fighting with David becuase Mostly it is emotion without any facts.

Ok, thank you for clarifying Serg. I don't know if you feel what I said applies, but I tried hard in my post (I think) not to actually accuse David of anything, but just to point out how I (and others) could interpret what he says, and how he portrays his goods. But just so my point is clear, I am not "accusing" him of anything.

And I'm not fighting with him! Just being (brutally) honest.

Date: 7/28/2009 11:44:26 AM
Author: Black Jade
Ellen I just want to repeat that the way you have behaved has been as always, exemplary. You are a class act online, and I would bet, in person, too.

Thank you Black Jade. This was nice to read. I was really hoping my words would be seen for the honest intentions they came from, and not be misconstrued. I did not enjoy my post to David, I do not like being so blunt. But I felt (from previous discussions with him) there was no other way to approach it.



Moh, thanks for 'splainin!

Oldminer, eloquent post, as usual. I wish I could convey my thoughts half as well as you.



CCL, great post, except for that first paragraph where you lost me!

I've nothing more to say, so I'll just say, Au revoir.