A Discussion On Bias

[Richard Sherwood]

Date: 7/28/2009 2:42:36 PM
Author: risingsun
I apologize to those posters who have been offended by my recent remarks about David''s behavior, mental health status and his motivations as expressed from my professional perspective. I was trying to make a point, but upon reflection, it wasn''t the best option from which to do so. All future interactions will be as a consumer and I hope this will calm these particular waters. I don''t want to add to the already high level of emotions on this thread.

Thank you.

 

[Richard Sherwood]

Is it time to break for beer yet?

 

[Ellen]

Date: 7/28/2009 4:54:57 PM
Author: Richard Sherwood

Is it time to break for beer yet?

Well, normally I don''t drink during the week, and, you and I are already having beers on Thursday, but, what the heck!

 

[Moh 10]

Date: 7/28/2009 4:54:57 PM
Author: Richard Sherwood
Is it time to break for beer yet?

OMG, imagine how the thread would turn if we all had a few drinks of the old truth serum, and people started really speaking their minds.

 

[Lorelei]

Pie?

 

[Kaleigh]

Date: 7/28/2009 5:00:53 PM
Author: Lorelei
Pie?

Pie sounds wonderful, I was just thinking the same thing.

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 7/28/2009 5:02:13 PM
Author: Kaleigh

Date: 7/28/2009 5:00:53 PM
Author: Lorelei
Pie?

Pie sounds wonderful, I was just thinking the same thing.

There you go L!

 

[glitterata]

Date: 7/28/2009 4:02:20 PM
Author: Rockdiamond

If I regret something from this thread, it''s that my points are somehow lost in all the personal attacks.

Even though I specicfcially responded to Marian''s post, she conspicuously ignores that- yet does take the time to thank or excuse herself with others.

Nor has Storm responded

I hate to admit this- as I am a very positive minded person- I''d like to believe that good is dominant in our personalities- but serg may be right about sick. And you may be right this thread will never result in the people who can''t seem to allow for another''s point of view to do so....or another positive outcome.



Plus we just had an appointment cancel due to the PS mental health diagnosis....hehehe

David, there you go again, insisting on having the last word. Even jumping on someone who just apologized!

Don''t you see that the reason your points get lost in "all the personal attacks" is that YOU keep making personal attacks?

This is not good for your reputation. Spending thousands of dollars on a diamond is risky. Who in their right mind would feel safe taking that risk with someone who can''t be civil, even after he''s been apologized to?

I actually agree with some of the points you make. I think you''re probably an honorable businessman (or at least, I have no reason to think you aren''t). But the way you present yourself here, I would never spend a penny at your store.

I bet there are hundreds of lurkers who you''re driving off with your obnoxious attitude.

Is it worth it? Just for the pleasure of getting the last word?

 

[risingsun]

Date: 7/28/2009 4:22:34 PM
Author: Rockdiamond
Stone- when someone comes on, calls themselves a mental health professional and proceeds to critique your personality- and subsequently forgets to apologize directly to you, then you can be sporting.

I am sorry for critiquing your personality from my professional perspective. Any more feedback will be from a consumer''s POV. Does that satisfy you?

 

[risingsun]

Date: 7/28/2009 4:51:24 PM
Author: Richard Sherwood

Date: 7/28/2009 2:42:36 PM
Author: risingsun
I apologize to those posters who have been offended by my recent remarks about David''s behavior, mental health status and his motivations as expressed from my professional perspective. I was trying to make a point, but upon reflection, it wasn''t the best option from which to do so. All future interactions will be as a consumer and I hope this will calm these particular waters. I don''t want to add to the already high level of emotions on this thread.

Thank you.

You''re welcome, Richard.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Thanks Glitteria,
Can I say thnk you to Marian and hope someone else comes on to negate my "last word"

Thank you Marian.

 

[risingsun]

You are welcome. I hope this has ended between us.

 

[Rockdiamond]

I agree Marian.
I''m sorry if I got angry before- I''ll bet that if we did sit down and talk, we''d find a lot of common ground.
See- I''m back to feeling positive again- I really do appreciate it!

 

[Black Jade]

Whew. I don''t drink (not because I disapprove but because I can get drunk off ONE glass of white wine, something wierd about my metabolism), but I feel ready for something, if not exactly for beer!

 

[glitterata]

There, that''s MUCH better.

Thank you for taking my comments in the spirit they were meant, David.

 

[Lula]

Ah, peace at last! Thanks, Glitterta, for your calming influence!

 

[Rockdiamond]

Dittos Sarap333.

By the way, I you don''t mind me saying this Sara.....



I LOVE YOUR DIAMOND!

I''m so glad you posted here because I didn''t know if I''m allowed to post on the threads where people show their stuff, and I hope you don;t mind me saying it here...
It''s gorgeous.
Congratulations!

Kudos to Paul, Wink and Infinity for cutting such a fine make in a K/SI2 grade.
If we could swing the discussion back on a positive note, and discuss bias, your stone is a great example.
Although I have defended jewelry stores, as they are people too, I do not feel that means we can''t comment on questionable practices.

For example, say you walked into a store carrying finer diamonds and asked for a K/SI2.
In a lot of stores, they''d tell you a K/Si2 was a piece of junk.

That, my friends, is bias.

 

[Lula]

Hi, RD,
Thank you so much! I know you are right when you say that a fine jewelry store would say that K and lower stones with SI2 clarity would be considered junk. And I agree with you that this is a form of bias.

And, to be honest, I had to deal with my own "mind clean" issues when I decided to look at stones in this range.

Stones like this go against everything we're taught to believe is beautiful in a diamond. The fact that I was willing to order this stone and that I can appreciate its beauty is due largely to my time on PS. The people here have expanded my definitions of what is beautiful in a diamond. So I thank all of you lovely PS'ers for this.

As I said before, RD, your input on the thread about the lower colors of the diamond color spectrum (started by Glitterata a few weeks ago) was so interesting and valuable. That's the RD I respect. Please show us more of that side of you!

Expanding our notions of what is beautiful in gems is a worthy goal of PS, and I appreciate your input in that area, even though we don't always agree.

 

[Sharon101]

Date: 7/28/2009 1:44:04 PM
Author: risingsun
I will reread my posts, BlackJade and see if I have overstepped my boundaries. I was very careful not to make a diagnosis, because that would have been unethical. I don't think that asking David to look at his own behavior crosses the line. He has received feedback, from many posters, about his disruptive behavior before I ever posted in this thread. PS is a consumer advocate site. I believe, in this thread, we have been advocating for the consumer on a professional [diamond knowledge] and personal [interpersonal communication] level about the damage that David has caused to this site.

Marian, I have nothing personal against you at all. But, I have noticed for a very long time now that you really have it in for David big time. Maybe you dont notice but it comes across really strongly to me and it seems to be quite personal. I usually dont chime in about it. But it stands out a mile to me almost like you have a very strong vendetor against him. I know you are not a nastey person but you seem too invested in discrediting him and it reflects on you too. There is room here for different types of vendors to give their opinions. I think if someone is able to survive in the diamond business for 30 odd years they are doing `something` right. Some of us are interested in diamonds that dont have the best cut on paper and it would be a very limited experience if the only diamonds you could buy were super ACA etc. Its a big market place, and there is room for different types of vendors.

ETA- and yes he can be annoying & noone has to buy from him unless they want to ....but its a bit rough for us to try to destroy his livelihood imo.

 

[elle_chris]

hmm.. based on some of these posts, russians are barbarians, new yorkers have attitudes, and only children can''t handle conflict.

That would make me: a barbarian, with a bad attitude, wiho doesn''t play well with others. WOW

 

[T L]

I know RD isn't everyone's cup of tea, but I really enjoy his website because I rather have something like this

http://rockdiamond.com/index.php/jewelry/loose-diamond-116ct-fancy-intense-green-yellow-vvs2-pear-shape-diamond-gia-report

then something like another carbon copy (literally) H&A round. I don't like to have a stone that looks like everyone else's, and I enjoy his website as well as the funky cuts. Sorry if this goes against the grain of perfect white diamond precision cutting/grading bias that seems to be so prevelant in the world of e-rings.

That diamond looks like kryptonite!!

 

[Lula]

Date: 7/28/2009 10:06:51 PM
Author: tourmaline_lover
I know RD isn''t everyone''s cup of tea, but I really enjoy his website because I rather have something like this


http://rockdiamond.com/index.php/jewelry/loose-diamond-116ct-fancy-intense-green-yellow-vvs2-pear-shape-diamond-gia-report


then something like another carbon copy (literally) H&A round. I don''t like to have a stone that looks like everyone else''s, and I enjoy his website as well as the funky cuts. Sorry if this goes against the grain of perfect white diamond precision cutting/grading bias that seems to be so prevelant in the world of e-rings.


That diamond looks like kryptonite!!

I agree -- that is a wonderful stone. And I do wish we could see some more posts from RD''s clients with pictures of rings set with stones like the one you linked.

I must admit, I know nothing about fancies. I rarely see them. I would like to know more about them.

 

[T L]

Date: 7/28/2009 10:18:30 PM
Author: sarap333

Date: 7/28/2009 10:06:51 PM
Author: tourmaline_lover
I know RD isn't everyone's cup of tea, but I really enjoy his website because I rather have something like this


http://rockdiamond.com/index.php/jewelry/loose-diamond-116ct-fancy-intense-green-yellow-vvs2-pear-shape-diamond-gia-report


then something like another carbon copy (literally) H&A round. I don't like to have a stone that looks like everyone else's, and I enjoy his website as well as the funky cuts. Sorry if this goes against the grain of perfect white diamond precision cutting/grading bias that seems to be so prevelant in the world of e-rings.


That diamond looks like kryptonite!!

I agree -- that is a wonderful stone. And I do wish we could see some more posts from RD's clients with pictures of rings set with stones like the one you linked.

I must admit, I know nothing about fancies. I rarely see them. I would like to know more about them.

If you check out the colored stone subforum from time to time, there are a couple of "colored stoners" that buy David's stones and you can see pictures of them in people's own photographs of their jewelry on his website. In any case, they are lovely, and most importantly to me, different. Fancy colored diamonds represent another realm in the diamond buying world. There are some other great sellers of fancy colored diamonds as well, who are also PS'ers, and I enjoy the eye candy. The cuts are not precision cuts, but they don't need to be since the colors, like the one above, speak for themselves.

 

[Lula]

Thanks, Tourmaline, I will take a look at the CS forum. I''ve been meaning to (I like the eye candy, too!). And you''re right, with fancies, it seems that it''s all about how the cut maximizes the intensity of the color. A totally different art form.

 

[Black Jade]

That''s pretty amazing green diamond. Kryptonite. I wouldn''t have thought of putting it like that, but that''s good.

Some day I''d like a yellow or a brown one. Fortunately I like little diamonds (.25, .33) and some of those look within the realm of possibility at some point.

One of the things I like best about RD''s site are those pages of examples of what different intensities of colored diamonds look like.

Very informative.

 

[risingsun]

Date: 7/28/2009 9:16:35 PM
Author: Sharon101

Date: 7/28/2009 1:44:04 PM
Author: risingsun
I will reread my posts, BlackJade and see if I have overstepped my boundaries. I was very careful not to make a diagnosis, because that would have been unethical. I don''t think that asking David to look at his own behavior crosses the line. He has received feedback, from many posters, about his disruptive behavior before I ever posted in this thread. PS is a consumer advocate site. I believe, in this thread, we have been advocating for the consumer on a professional [diamond knowledge] and personal [interpersonal communication] level about the damage that David has caused to this site.

Marian, I have nothing personal against you at all. But, I have noticed for a very long time now that you really have it in for David big time. Maybe you dont notice but it comes across really strongly to me and it seems to be quite personal. I usually dont chime in about it. But it stands out a mile to me almost like you have a very strong vendetor against him. I know you are not a nastey person but you seem too invested in discrediting him and it reflects on you too. There is room here for different types of vendors to give their opinions. I think if someone is able to survive in the diamond business for 30 odd years they are doing `something` right. Some of us are interested in diamonds that dont have the best cut on paper and it would be a very limited experience if the only diamonds you could buy were super ACA etc. Its a big market place, and there is room for different types of vendors.

ETA- and yes he can be annoying & noone has to buy from him unless they want to ....but its a bit rough for us to try to destroy his livelihood imo.

I have already apologized to David and we have agreed to move on from here. If you read the thread in its entirety, you will see what has transpired.

 

[decodelighted]

Is anyone else curled in a fetal position wide-eyed & frightened ... while absentmindedly petting their loyal puppy and rocking slightly in place?

 

[Rockdiamond]

Date: 7/28/2009 5:05:04 PM
Author: risingsun

Date: 7/28/2009 4:22:34 PM

Author: Rockdiamond

Stone- when someone comes on, calls themselves a mental health professional and proceeds to critique your personality- and subsequently forgets to apologize directly to you, then you can be sporting.

I am sorry for critiquing your personality from my professional perspective. Any more feedback will be from a consumer''s POV. Does that satisfy you?

I promise, I know this is sensitve, and I''ll try to phrase this so as not to fan any flames- but I really do belive that the use of the word "consumer" is a real problem here.
For Marian to speak about DBL as a "consumer", she''d need to actually purchase something from us.

When Storm says he does not like the way I treat consumers, it''s way out of line, as no one who has actually consumed our services is here complaining.

Bringing us back to bias.
If a forum participant steers other forum participants one way or the other based on personal dislike of one of the companies which is NOT based on personal experience with that company, that seems wrong.
This is NOT only about DBL.
It''s happened to us, yes, But to many other well meaning sellers as well.

I strongly believe Storm is wrong that seller and non sellers- prosumers, forum participants shoppers, whatever you want to call them can''t co exist to the benefit of both.
You might like me love me hate me or be indifferent to me but having professionals devote time here makes all the difference in the world in terms of presenting a more balanced and advised informational forum.

 

[ChunkyCushionLover]

Date: 7/28/2009 2:21:24 PM
Author: Rockdiamond
HI David Atlas,
One of CCl posts a few years..I mean days ago contained this suggestion:

I am sure by now you have taken a look at thousands of certificates and or sarins reports on diamonds you particularly liked and considered the ones that fell outside of the ''ideal safe'' ranges. We want to be be primarily educated here on Pricescope forums the buying aspect is secondary, however you can do both if you provide information and put effort into explaining why these diamonds that fall outside of the ranges are good performers. Beyond the certificate number there must be a story as to why these stones perform well and the sarin numbers would confirm this and allow you to find other stones like them. At the very least we would understand the logic of your approach, and it might lead to a whole lot more internet business being brought your way.

I found it encouraging as it seemed - at least at the time- that CCL had taken a more open minded approasch...oh well.

But as far as the suggestion and how it relates to what David Atlas said:
CCL_ I don''t routinely run Sarin reports on stones we buy.
If I did, and notated all the CA/PA etc...it would help not one whit in trying to replicate the ones I loved.
I can just picture this phone call:
''Hi Mr well known and amazing Diamond Cutter, It''s Rockdiamond. Do you have a stone that''s #$$% this and ^&^*# % that?''
If you''re searching on an online DB, maybe they list stones on that basis.
If we''re talking abut .50 G/SI1''s- maybe there''s even enough of them on the lists to buy that way.
If it''s a 2.00ct G/SI1, that is a totally different story.
The rough for larger stones is so expensive that the best cutters have developed methods for prodicing beautiful stones, while maintaining profitability.
When you paint everyone in the diamond/jewelry business as money hungry people , remember that if there was no profit, there''d be no diamonds to cut.

I agree with David Atals that technology HAS made a huge difference in the diamond business. However my position is that the effcts of things like ASET/IS are far less than the advnaces made in computer modeling of the rough, for example.

You clearly don''t have much respect from the vendors and cutters then. You are also unware or think yourself inferior to the better vendors here and how they do business.
Jon at GOG works with cutters on a regular basis to retouch stones or cut stones with a cut in mind. There are other vendors here who do the same.
Clearly you don''t do that and it is reflected in what you offer on your website and your comments

"If I did, and notated all the CA/PA etc...it would help not one whit in trying to replicate the ones I loved."

That is the most damning statement of all. We will not be seeing any journal articles from you anytime soon and its very unlikely you will ever further anyone''s knowledge. Sure you can help a novice understand routine concepts but you don''t have the motivation in any way to further the profession''s understanding of diamond optics. Your feeble answer "I dont'' have time" has no credibility. You have plenty of time, you spend hours here defending your outrageous posts and your website. How many hours this week have you spent responding in this thread?

Yet you can''t take 2-3 hours and summarize the "Best of RockDiamond Educational Posts and Articles" from "10 years of internet posts". I know exactly why you won''t do this anytime soon as your unsupported unscientific rhetoric would be ripped apart here. Please prove me wrong take a couple minutes and summarize with links your best posts here, your best internet articles, and what you to beleive is your strongest contribution to diamond knowledge.

If you can''t do it or are too lazy to do it then you aren''t worth our time. You will have to excuse me if in the future I don''t routinely respond to you directly, I''m going to focus my efforts on something more constructive.

 

[Sharon101]

Date: 7/28/2009 11:09:20 PM
Author: risingsun

Date: 7/28/2009 9:16:35 PM
Author: Sharon101

Date: 7/28/2009 1:44:04 PM
Author: risingsun
I will reread my posts, BlackJade and see if I have overstepped my boundaries. I was very careful not to make a diagnosis, because that would have been unethical. I don't think that asking David to look at his own behavior crosses the line. He has received feedback, from many posters, about his disruptive behavior before I ever posted in this thread. PS is a consumer advocate site. I believe, in this thread, we have been advocating for the consumer on a professional [diamond knowledge] and personal [interpersonal communication] level about the damage that David has caused to this site.

Marian, I have nothing personal against you at all. But, I have noticed for a very long time now that you really have it in for David big time. Maybe you dont notice but it comes across really strongly to me and it seems to be quite personal. I usually dont chime in about it. But it stands out a mile to me almost like you have a very strong vendetor against him. I know you are not a nastey person but you seem too invested in discrediting him and it reflects on you too. There is room here for different types of vendors to give their opinions. I think if someone is able to survive in the diamond business for 30 odd years they are doing `something` right. Some of us are interested in diamonds that dont have the best cut on paper and it would be a very limited experience if the only diamonds you could buy were super ACA etc. Its a big market place, and there is room for different types of vendors.

ETA- and yes he can be annoying & noone has to buy from him unless they want to ....but its a bit rough for us to try to destroy his livelihood imo.

I have already apologized to David and we have agreed to move on from here. If you read the thread in its entirety, you will see what has transpired.

Well, I didnt really see the appology when you also hads to mention (again) that you think he (1) is disruptive and (2) he causes damage to this site. I personally dont see him in such a bleak role here. I hope you both really can move on because I think he is here to stay!