A Discussion On Bias

[VRBeauty]

Uhm... CCL ... was that necessary?

I think David''s point is that there are beautiful diamonds that don''t fit in the RB parameters most of the people who come to PS are looking for and asking about. There are beautiful diamonds that aren''t cut to the angles and proportions that fall into the ideal and superideal categories.. the Hope diamond comes to mind.

Can''t we all just cut each other a little slack?

 

[VRBeauty]

Oops -- double post.

 

[ChunkyCushionLover]

Date: 7/28/2009 3:29:30 PM
Author: Serg

CCL,

I like your post very much, I agree with most your statements.
but i disagree with statement what you or any other person can grade Cushion just by numbers( if we are speaking about proportions)
I am working in Cut grading field ( based on 3D model and computer modeling) more than 12 years, I am project leader such projects as Helium scanner, Diamcalc; MSS, ...; I am working on Cushion optimization more than 2 years( you can check last results here www.octonus.com.oct/projects/movies2.phtml).
based on all my experience in this field Nobody could grade Cushion light performance by proportions only. In our research finaly we all times use comparison by human observations. same for round cut with nontraditional proportions.

Serg,

I love the work you are doing and have many questions.
I would like to run some cushion simulations with you based on the the qualitative trends I have seen from top performing cushions.
This is purely from an academic perspective as I am not in any way connected to the diamond business.

I don't think simulations will be used anytime soon for cut grading in fancy shapes but I would like to see vendors using the simulations to show consumers the approximate look of a stone before they call it in.
I would also use a methodology like this: Vary one or two variables (example: crown height and depth of a stone) and keep the other independant variables fixed and then compare images of faceup appearance simulation under ASET lighting and regular lighting.

I have had the pleasure of being sent a couple of .gem files from one vendor of an unfinished and then a finished stone. The .gem file immediately told me under the ASET lighting what I wanted to know about the optics of the stone and this was confirmed with the real life finished product. The accuracy is not 100% but a lot of information is still available from the renderings.

I may not fully understand the limitations of the reflector technologies and the simulations from numbers but that is expected I haven't had the training or tools given to me yet.
I do however know that given enough enthusiastic minds working with small contributions on top of one another in academia the problems in Chemistry that were once though impossible to solve have been answered quite comprehensively.

Regards,
CCL

 

[Serg]

Date: 7/29/2009 2:53:43 AM
Author: ChunkyCushionLover

Date: 7/28/2009 3:29:30 PM
Author: Serg

CCL,

I like your post very much, I agree with most your statements.
but i disagree with statement what you or any other person can grade Cushion just by numbers( if we are speaking about proportions)
I am working in Cut grading field ( based on 3D model and computer modeling) more than 12 years, I am project leader such projects as Helium scanner, Diamcalc; MSS, ...; I am working on Cushion optimization more than 2 years( you can check last results here www.octonus.com.oct/projects/movies2.phtml).
based on all my experience in this field Nobody could grade Cushion light performance by proportions only. In our research finaly we all times use comparison by human observations. same for round cut with nontraditional proportions.

Serg,

I love the work you are doing and have many questions.
I would like to run some cushion simulations with you based on the the qualitative trends I have seen from top performing cushions.
This is purely from an academic perspective as I am not in any way connected to the diamond business.

I don't think simulations will be used anytime soon for cut grading in fancy shapes but I would like to see vendors using the simulations to show consumers the approximate look of a stone before they call it in.
I would also use a methodology like this: Vary one or two variables (example: crown height and depth of a stone) and keep the other independant variables fixed and then compare images of faceup appearance simulation under ASET lighting and regular lighting.

I have had the pleasure of being sent a couple of .gem files from one vendor of an unfinished and then a finished stone. The .gem file immediately told me under the ASET lighting what I wanted to know about the optics of the stone and this was confirmed with the real life finished product. The accuracy is not 100% but a lot of information is still available from the renderings.

I may not fully understand the limitations of the reflector technologies and the simulations from numbers but that is expected I haven't had the training or tools given to me yet.
I do however know that given enough enthusiastic minds working with small contributions on top of one another in academia the problems in Chemistry that were once though impossible to solve have been answered quite comprehensively.

Regards,
CCL

CCL,
In next week i will prepear and publish explanations of main limitations reflector technologies in new tread. I am in forest now and can not download pictures
As.
1) Stereo human vision. For example Tolk. Cut has cross ray traicing what is very important for human stereo vision. Other cut with nice ASET but without cross raytracing will more dark.. Same for BS, ISee2, iMAGEM
2) ETAS distribution. cut could have perfect ASET/IS but just few directions to catch light in notmal view conditions.for example France square
3) Reverse brightness for leakage( P41.2Cr34.5)
4) FIRE. No dispersion in ASET/IS
5) DETAS.
Then I will try answer on your other questions, just write your questions clear please.
I did not find direct questions in your post
Aset/IS is selection and rejection tools. Its are fine for such tasks. But its should not be used as grading tools specialy for fancy cuts

 

[Allison D.]

Date: 7/29/2009 1:18:00 AM
Author: Rockdiamond

Date: 7/28/2009 5:05:04 PM
Author: risingsun
I am sorry for critiquing your personality from my professional perspective. Any more feedback will be from a consumer''s POV. Does that satisfy you?

I promise, I know this is sensitve, and I''ll try to phrase this so as not to fan any flames- but I really do belive that the use of the word ''consumer'' is a real problem here.
For Marian to speak about DBL as a ''consumer'', she''d need to actually purchase something from us.

David, I have to respectfully disagree.

A consumer is any person who purchases goods or services......from any source. If she were to buy from you, she''d then be your customer.

As long as she''s not representing that her opinions are based on an actual purchase experience, it''s not a problem.

Consumers are influenced every day not only by their own purchases but by the positive/negative experiences of trusted friends/neighbors on all goods and services. Three people in my neighborhood have used a local contractor to rebuild/repair their decks and all rave about the results. If someone were to ask at a cocktail party for a recommendation on a good deck contractor, I''d certainly offer them up as a recommendation. I''d likely qualify it (as most people do) by saying "I''ve not yet worked with them, but my three neighbors have all used them and rave about their results."

 

[Lula]

Date: 7/28/2009 11:36:17 PM
Author: decodelighted
Is anyone else curled in a fetal position wide-eyed & frightened ... while absentmindedly petting their loyal puppy and rocking slightly in place?

LOL!!!

 

[DiamondFlame]

BarbaraP, your joke made me burst out laughing. Darn..why didn't I think of that?

Now back to the thread.

Bias will always be there. But as Black Jade pointed out, if you made it clear upfront where your biases might lie, it helps the reader factor in that element and take your opinion with just the right amount of salt.

I reckon someone with strong inclinations towards maths, logic and science (Strm, CCL seem to belong in this group) is more likely to analyse a diamond's beauty by geometry, reflector technology etc. Nothing wrong with that, no one will fault you for utilising your strengths to evaluate a diamond. Likewise someone who is more aesthetically inclined (I think RD, Mdm Bijoux, and some others) tends to have greater faith in their ability to suss out beautiful stones by eye alone. If I feel comfortable about a particular selection method, I will favor its use, and I am likely to be biased against other selection methods. But there's room for everyone here, really. The ones who are good at using math to pick a winning stone will continue to pick winners looking at angles etc., but may struggle when it comes to picking fancy cuts such as cushions. (Reflector technology seeks to overcome this weakness.) Others gifted with stronger aesthetic sense may not pick the ones with optimal optics but will also be able to pick out beautiful stones including those that fall outside 'safe' parameters. For example, Mark at ERD doesn't use ASET to pick his cushions, has he ever picked out a dud for his customer? Not as far as I know.

One of the best tool more online vendors should use is VIDEO, provided of course they can standardize the lighting environment (as proposed by Strm some time ago). Jon at GoG seems to be a frontrunner here and you can see how fast he moves his signature cuts! Take a leaf, people!

'Beauty' is still a subjective matter. And I see diamond cutters more as artists than precision engineers, though of late precision engineering has been a great enabler (just look at those amazing recuts!) While near perfect symmetry in H&A is beautiful too many, the charm of older yet well cut OECs, transitions or OMCs cannot be denied. Though attempts have been made to measure and quantify 'beauty', not everything is quantifiable.

This brings to mind the movie Dead Poets Society. In the movie, a stuffy introductory essay to a poetry anthology proposes a ridiculous method that reduces literature to a mathematical formula, whereby a poem's "greatness" quotient can supposedly be plotted on a graph. The new teacher Keating calls this proposal 'excrement' and instructs his students to rip the introduction from the book.

Learning point: you can't possibly quantify beauty, at least not adequately.

By the same token, while you can attempt to simplify a diamonds' beauty to mathematical formulae relating c/p angles, % fire, scintillation etc. it's too reductionist imo and limits consumer choices. Now, that can't always be good.

 

[Ali]

Horse
Dead

Time to move on.

It has been a long ride, as usually occurs in this kind of platform, but I am happy to see that some very good points were made and some good dialogue ensued. There were also some very discouraging and disappointing posts but we take the good with the bad and hopefully learn and grow from it.

Peace.

 

[Ali]

This thread was originally closed because it had gone far off topic from the original intentions. While there have been some good discussions herein, we would like to keep threads on topic and would prefer off topic conversations to be moved to their own area. That said, Andrey and I have talked about this and we have decided that since there are some unresolved issues that were brought up at the end of this thread, we will re-open the thread so that everyone has a fair chance to respond to all of the issues.

If you have any comments or concerns, please don't hesitate to contact us directly.

 

[Serg]

Andrew, could you add options for consumers to have special mark in avatar if this consumer bought diamond from any PS vendor? It could voluntary option

 

[psadmin]

Date: 7/29/2009 12:36:37 PM
Author: Serg
Andrew, could you add options for consumers to have special mark in avatar if this consumer bought diamond from any PS vendor? It could voluntary option

Hi Serg,

We are working on something like this for the new Pricescope site, which we hope to launch soon.

In the mean time everyone is able to use the Signature for it.


Kind regards,
Andrey

 

[elle_chris]

I have nothing to add at this point, but i do want to say thanks for deciding to re-open it. Provided people can keep it civil, there''s no reason to lock it.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Date: 7/29/2009 8:41:24 AM
Author: Allison D.

Date: 7/29/2009 1:18:00 AM

Author: Rockdiamond

Date: 7/28/2009 5:05:04 PM

Author: risingsun

I am sorry for critiquing your personality from my professional perspective. Any more feedback will be from a consumer''s POV. Does that satisfy you?

I promise, I know this is sensitve, and I''ll try to phrase this so as not to fan any flames- but I really do belive that the use of the word ''consumer'' is a real problem here.

For Marian to speak about DBL as a ''consumer'', she''d need to actually purchase something from us.

David, I have to respectfully disagree.


A consumer is any person who purchases goods or services......from any source. If she were to buy from you, she''d then be your customer.


As long as she''s not representing that her opinions are based on an actual purchase experience, it''s not a problem.


Consumers are influenced every day not only by their own purchases but by the positive/negative experiences of trusted friends/neighbors on all goods and services. Three people in my neighborhood have used a local contractor to rebuild/repair their decks and all rave about the results. If someone were to ask at a cocktail party for a recommendation on a good deck contractor, I''d certainly offer them up as a recommendation. I''d likely qualify it (as most people do) by saying ''I''ve not yet worked with them, but my three neighbors have all used them and rave about their results.''

Thank you Ali and Andrey- I did feel that we have still got some important distinctions to discuss on the topic.

Allison- you do bring up a good point- "customer" is a more accurate description of someone who had actually purchased.
Still the term consumer, used in the context of this conversation can be misleading.

I respectfully disagree with the analogy you used.
If there are people who have used a company''s services, then a reccomendation is certainly in order!

I feel that the analogy did not consider the other side- not praise, rather criticism.

What if someone never used the company''s services, but did not like the owner for reasons unrelated to the service being offered?
Or maybe it might even be related, but actually unimportant to others.
For example- the contractor has a big truck and certain people had small driveways.
If someone said " Oh don''t use such and such company, they''re no good" without mentioning they did not like his truck, it could be prejudicial.

Far worse would be if people did not like a company, having never done business with them for more nefarious reasons- such as a person''s race or religion.
In such cases discouraging others from doing business with a company could be nothing BUT bias.

The way this relates to diamond shopping and advice giving here is clear to me.
I still feel that in the context used by Storm the word "consumers" was completely misleading.
I have repeatedly said I believe this site works and that it is possible for vendors to post along with consumers- but care- maybe more care- needs to be given to make sure that people are clear why they are doing so when they discourage others from making a purchase, or steer potential buyers to another seller.

 

[Regular Guy]

Hey David my question''s here

!

 

[Moh 10]

I don't need to buy from a vendor or use an appraiser's services to see what kind of a person or businessperson they are.
I can see that based on what they write here.

The person matters to me.
This bias is legit and is the vendor is responsible for it.

Good behavior results in positive bias.
Bad behavior results in negative bias.

Every post is an ad for your reputation, whether you be a vendor, appraiser, or prosumer.

 

[lisa1.01fvs1]

Date: 7/29/2009 6:26:11 AM
Author: Serg

CCL,
In next week i will prepear and publish explanations of main limitations reflector technologies in new tread. I am in forest now and can not download pictures
As.
1) Stereo human vision. For example Tolk. Cut has cross ray traicing what is very important for human stereo vision. Other cut with nice ASET but without cross raytracing will more dark.. Same for BS, ISee2, iMAGEM
2) ETAS distribution. cut could have perfect ASET/IS but just few directions to catch light in notmal view conditions.for example France square
3) Reverse brightness for leakage( P41.2Cr34.5)
4) FIRE. No dispersion in ASET/IS
5) DETAS.
Then I will try answer on your other questions, just write your questions clear please.
I did not find direct questions in your post
Aset/IS is selection and rejection tools. Its are fine for such tasks. But its should not be used as grading tools specialy for fancy cuts

looking very forward to this...............applications and limitations are very useful things, thanks.

 

[tlroza]

I really have learned a bunch from this website regarding diamonds. I asked for advise on certain stones and found a huge amount of help. I don''t consider myself as a consumer. I could have been a consumer of one of the vendors, but when I asked for a video of a certain diamond we considered knowing the video was available, I never received a return e-mail.

One day out of bordom, we went to a jeweler that I had done business with in the past, just out of boredom and ended up buying my diamond. I didn''t care what the angles were, if it had an aset/idealscope, I saw it and knew I wanted it! We took it outside, looked at it inside, just about every light. Eye clean and sparkled like mad.

I know that my time here lurking and learning helped me with our purchase.

I have to be kinda honest here. I''ve often why so many folks would recommend the same vendors over and over and in the back of my mind I hope it''s because they have purchased from them. That''s what I ended up doing, buying once again from someone that I would recommend, because I have purchased from him before.

 

[glitterata]

This is a consumer website. Consumers help consumers here by giving them advice. That's what it's for.

A consumer may or may not have personal experience with any particular vendor. (If he does, that makes him a customer of that vendor.) The person receiving the advice has to take the context into account when they decide whether to listen to the advice.

Vendors might not like the advice that consumers give each other. For example, a consumer might say, "I wouldn't buy from so-and-so because I think he's rude" or "I wouldn't buy from so-and-so because I think the stones he offers are ugly," or "I wouldn't buy from so-and-so because I don't like his hardball sales pitches," or "I wouldn't buy from so-and-so because he doesn't provide enough information to satisfy me," or "I wouldn't buy from so-and-so because I don't like his return policies." Or "I bought something from so-and-so and I was unhappy with my purchase." Or even, "I've never bought from so-and-so, but I did have a wonderful experience buying from this other shop."

If the vendor doesn't like that, tough.

There are some things the vendor can do to change what's said about his company. He can be more polite. He can buy prettier stock. He can rethink his sales pitch, offer more information, change his return policies. He can hope his satisfied customers will jump in and tell about their happy experiences with his company.

What he can't do is make the consumer stop expressing his opinions, however negative they may be, as long as they're truly opinions and not libelous.

I have opinions of several vendors here. Some I have bought from, and my opinions are based on the quality of their merchandise, the personal interactions I've had with them, and how well they stepped up and fixed problems that arose. Some I have had no personal interactions with, but I've observed how they interact with people on this board. I plan to go on sharing my opinions when relevant. I think that's exactly what makes this board useful--consumers share their opinions.

 

[T L]

Date: 7/29/2009 2:24:42 PM
Author: Rockdiamond

Date: 7/29/2009 8:41:24 AM
Author: Allison D.


David, I have to respectfully disagree.


A consumer is any person who purchases goods or services......from any source. If she were to buy from you, she''d then be your customer.


As long as she''s not representing that her opinions are based on an actual purchase experience, it''s not a problem.


Consumers are influenced every day not only by their own purchases but by the positive/negative experiences of trusted friends/neighbors on all goods and services. Three people in my neighborhood have used a local contractor to rebuild/repair their decks and all rave about the results. If someone were to ask at a cocktail party for a recommendation on a good deck contractor, I''d certainly offer them up as a recommendation. I''d likely qualify it (as most people do) by saying ''I''ve not yet worked with them, but my three neighbors have all used them and rave about their results.''

Thank you Ali and Andrey- I did feel that we have still got some important distinctions to discuss on the topic.

Allison- you do bring up a good point- ''customer'' is a more accurate description of someone who had actually purchased.
Still the term consumer, used in the context of this conversation can be misleading.

I respectfully disagree with the analogy you used.
If there are people who have used a company''s services, then a reccomendation is certainly in order!

I feel that the analogy did not consider the other side- not praise, rather criticism.

What if someone never used the company''s services, but did not like the owner for reasons unrelated to the service being offered?
Or maybe it might even be related, but actually unimportant to others.
For example- the contractor has a big truck and certain people had small driveways.
If someone said '' Oh don''t use such and such company, they''re no good'' without mentioning they did not like his truck, it could be prejudicial.

Far worse would be if people did not like a company, having never done business with them for more nefarious reasons- such as a person''s race or religion.
In such cases discouraging others from doing business with a company could be nothing BUT bias.

The way this relates to diamond shopping and advice giving here is clear to me.
I still feel that in the context used by Storm the word ''consumers'' was completely misleading.
I have repeatedly said I believe this site works and that it is possible for vendors to post along with consumers- but care- maybe more care- needs to be given to make sure that people are clear why they are doing so when they discourage others from making a purchase, or steer potential buyers to another seller.

Okay, I have an excellent example, although it relates to colored gems and not diamonds. There is a vendor that sells stones that appear to have very large tilt windows. I clearly see them based on consumer and vendor photos (not all, but many). They''re pretty much as plain as day. Consumers have actually made mention of the large tilt windows as well and I have noted this time and time again. I am able to visually see these tilt windows in the photographs and what is to me, is obvious inferior precision cutting on some stones (not all). When I recommended that someone not use this vendor for recuts, I was scolded by his happy customers. They accused me of not knowing what I was talking about because I never purchased from this vendor.

However, when I told them I did purchase one stone from this vendor that immediately went back, I was told by his customers, that wasn''t enough to make an accurate decision on the quality of his cutting. They told me that I needed to purchase more stones to make a valuable decision on this vendor.

My question is that if we have to buy an item from a vendor to make a good decision, does it have to be one, two, ten, twenty items? Why can''t we make a decision based on what we see and read from other consumers, and based on the vendor''s website? I have bias against this vendor, but it''s not because I just woke up one morning and decided I had it out for him. It''s because of what I SAW, and I feel that certain things can be seen, and one does not necessarily have to make a purchase, to evaluate a vendor and have bias towards or against that vendor.

 

[elle_chris]

TM- You have a reason for saying what you do and it''s a perfectly legitimate reason.

For me, there''s a vendor here i don''t care for. He gets rave reviews, people love him etc. I myself would not buy from him because I don''t like the way his posts seem to insinuate that other vendor''s, or other stones are subpar. However, I do know that he carries beautiful stones (but I wouldn''t say better than other vendors), and if someone came on here, and posted one his diamonds for consideration, and there''s nothing wrong with it, there''s no reason for me to steer him to someone else based soley on my personal feelings.

When giving consumers advice, i think it''s the responsibility of the posters here to be able to differentiate between facts and feelings. Many of the prosumers here do, but others.. not so much.

 

[MonkeyPie]

Date: 7/29/2009 2:40:24 PM
Author: Moh 10
I don''t need to buy from a vendor or use an appraiser''s services to see what kind of a person or businessperson they are.

I can see that based on what they write here.

The person matters to me.

This bias is legit and is the vendor is responsible for it.

Good behavior results in positive bias.

Bad behavior results in negative bias.

Every post is an ad for your reputation, whether you be a vendor, appraiser, or prosumer.

YES to this. You know what they say about first impressions...well, make the same impression on my every time you type something out and I will not just have an impression, but a fact about your personality. One vendor here that I would never work with/buy from simply because of their hateful and ignorant attitude on the boards. That is a bias he will have to just live with.

 

[Allison D.]

David, I''ll try to reply to the points I think are salient.

Date: 7/29/2009 2:24:42 PM
Author: Rockdiamond

*snip*
I respectfully disagree with the analogy you used.
If there are people who have used a company''s services, then a reccomendation is certainly in order!

I feel that the analogy did not consider the other side- not praise, rather criticism.

What if someone never used the company''s services, but did not like the owner for reasons unrelated to the service being offered?
Or maybe it might even be related, but actually unimportant to others.
For example- the contractor has a big truck and certain people had small driveways.
If someone said '' Oh don''t use such and such company, they''re no good'' without mentioning they did not like his truck, it could be prejudicial.

David, I feel pretty qualified to speak on this as I''ve been on both the consumer and trade ends of this equation.

I was on the consumer side of the PS equation for five years, and if I asked for someone''s opinion and they said "oh, I didn''t care for that vendor", I felt it was my responsibility to further ask WHY. I don''t know about you, but I don''t take anyone at face value. I understand that person''s values/wants/buying priorities may be different from mine and may color their opinion, so I knew enough to ask for more information to determine if their reservations were relevant to my situation.

Considering that most Pricescopers were already savvy enough to bother researching a significant purchase and finding Pricescope, I''d hope they''re also savvy enough to ask why someone recommends (or doesn''t recommend) a given vendor.

In those consumer days, there were a few vendors I chose not to consider based on the fact that I didn''t care for their conduct/behavior/demeanors. I didn''t feel that was reason enough to counsel other not to work with them, so I simply refrained from comment unless someone asked me point-blank if I''d work with them or not and why (which seldom happened).

Now I''m on the vendor end of life, so I do understand the source of your frustration and sometimes share it, particularly when I see comments from people based on assumptions that I know aren''t correct. However, it''s a fact of life; it can''t be changed, so I default back to trusting that PS readers are savvy enough to separate genuine help from personal agenda noise and make the right choices for themselves.

There are varied enough buyers here that the responsibility for "balance" doesn''t need to sit on every individual. The mere presence of multiple participants is itself a form of balance, since different personalities will share different preferences.

 

[Black Jade]

Date: 7/29/2009 4:02:19 PM
Author: elle_chris
TM- You have a reason for saying what you do and it''s a perfectly legitimate reason.

For me, there''s a vendor here i don''t care for. He gets rave reviews, people love him etc. I myself would not buy from him because I don''t like the way his posts seem to insinuate that other vendor''s, or other stones are subpar. However, I do know that he carries beautiful stones (but I wouldn''t say better than other vendors), and if someone came on here, and posted one his diamonds for consideration, and there''s nothing wrong with it, there''s no reason for me to steer him to someone else based soley on my personal feelings.

When giving consumers advice, i think it''s the responsibility of the posters here to be able to differentiate between facts and feelings. Many of the prosumers here do, but others.. not so much.

Great post, elle-chris.
I like how you differentiate clearly between ''not recommending'' and ''messing over''.
I see no reason for anyone to recommend anyone they don''t like. But I do a lot of reasons not steer someone away from someone based on personal dislike. Especially if the personal dislike is not based on a knowledge of how they treat their customers (which may be quite different from the way they react in a heated discussion on a board)And especially, especially if you know the buyer is not going to know what your opinion is actually based on, and thus, going to assume that it is a neutral opinion, which it is not.
My rule of thumb would be, if you would be unwilling to post, "I don''t think you should buy this diamond because I personally think seller X is a creep, and I know this because he or she once said something rude to me in a internet discussion--no, I don''t know anything else against them, but I''m telling you, this person is a creep--"
If you''re not willing to say that, but there''s nothing elseyou know that''s concrete, I personally think you should just keep your fingers off the keyboard.

 

[Rockdiamond]

HI everyone!
Glitterata- I believe we are in total agreement.
I never meant to imply that anyone should have to hold back a criticism- just that it''s important to explain the reason behind it.
All the examples you gave had reasons behind them- and not necessarily ones that a vendor might like, or agree with. IN terms of this conversation, the reasons themselves are less important that stating those reasons.

Moh10 is a good example.
If he does not like a vendor, that is clearly his right- as is the right to express that.

Do you think that a person coming here for advice should be made privy to why someone is knocking a vendor? In essence without the reason why someone is knocking a company, there does not seem to be nearly as much value to the person asking.
"Don;t buy from that guy, because I don''t like how he behaves on a forum" seems perfectly valid- as long as it''s expressed that way.
"Don''t buy from that company because they have bad diamonds- I know based on the forum postings" even seems fair- because the person doing the knocking is at least being honest.
"I wouldn''t consider X company because I know they have bad diamonds" when in fact the criticism is because the person simply dislikes the company for personal reasons seems a bit disingenuous- and far less informational.
Criticize as much as you want- but in fairness to all, specify when you criticize.
Does that make sense?

I said we''re in total agreement- but there is one point you made I feel differently about.
You said PS is a "Consumer" site.
IN fact, I believe- and their actions show this- that mgmt wants vendors AND consumers to use the site.
Can''t we vendors get value and enjoyment here too?

 

[Rockdiamond]

Date: 7/29/2009 4:16:19 PM
Author: Allison D.
David, I''ll try to reply to the points I think are salient.

Date: 7/29/2009 2:24:42 PM

Author: Rockdiamond


*snip*

I respectfully disagree with the analogy you used.

If there are people who have used a company''s services, then a reccomendation is certainly in order!


I feel that the analogy did not consider the other side- not praise, rather criticism.


What if someone never used the company''s services, but did not like the owner for reasons unrelated to the service being offered?

Or maybe it might even be related, but actually unimportant to others.

For example- the contractor has a big truck and certain people had small driveways.

If someone said '' Oh don''t use such and such company, they''re no good'' without mentioning they did not like his truck, it could be prejudicial.

David, I feel pretty qualified to speak on this as I''ve been on both the consumer and trade ends of this equation.


I was on the consumer side of the PS equation for five years, and if I asked for someone''s opinion and they said ''oh, I didn''t care for that vendor'', I felt it was my responsibility to further ask WHY. I don''t know about you, but I don''t take anyone at face value. I understand that person''s values/wants/buying priorities may be different from mine and may color their opinion, so I knew enough to ask for more information to determine if their reservations were relevant to my situation.


Considering that most Pricescopers were already savvy enough to bother researching a significant purchase and finding Pricescope, I''d hope they''re also savvy enough to ask why someone recommends (or doesn''t recommend) a given vendor.


In those consumer days, there were a few vendors I chose not to consider based on the fact that I didn''t care for their conduct/behavior/demeanors. I didn''t feel that was reason enough to counsel other not to work with them, so I simply refrained from comment unless someone asked me point-blank if I''d work with them or not and why (which seldom happened).


Now I''m on the vendor end of life, so I do understand the source of your frustration and sometimes share it, particularly when I see comments from people based on assumptions that I know aren''t correct. However, it''s a fact of life; it can''t be changed, so I default back to trusting that PS readers are savvy enough to separate genuine help from personal agenda noise and make the right choices for themselves.

There are varied enough buyers here that the responsibility for ''balance'' doesn''t need to sit on every individual. The mere presence of multiple participants is itself a form of balance, since different personalities will share different preferences.

Thank you so much Allison!
That really puts things in a great perspective.
I love your point about how a community is made up of many- so the prejudices of any individual is lessened in context of the group.

 

[denverappraiser]

In many but not all cases, bias is exactly what the poster is asking for. That’s why this is such a difficult subject to nail down and it’s far from a given that it’s bad. The skill set being offered up by the prosumers is decidedly different from what is being offered from the jewelers, even the jewelers who are active here. How so? First, most inexperienced consumers don’t have a context to work from in evaluating a dealer. They don’t know what a reasonable evaluation period is (or even that some dealers have them at all) and they’ve never even considered the topic of differences between the labs, trade in programs or that there are important details about stones that aren’t mentioned on the lab documentation. Naturally every dealer counts themselves as the ‘best’ for whatever reason and the successful ones have sales people who are good at explaining that to potential customers. A shopper who collects a few of these presentations is left with some decidedly conflicting advice. Pricescope adds a whole new layer by talking about ASET, IS, Sarin, HCA and other things that the local stores and even the dealers’ websites routinely have never even mentioned. That and they get hit with the database containing something like 60,000 stones where superficially similar or even identical stones will range by as much as 50% in price. Who’s surprised that people are confused? For nearly everyone buying a diamond, regardless of budget, it’s an expensive and important purchase. They seem to need assistance in 3 areas.

1) How do you choose a set of specifications that will end up with what you want (an awesome diamond for a price you can afford)?
2) How do you choose a dealer to provide that?
3) How do you pick the final stone?

This is VERY different from the traditional diamond shopping experience. For starters, in the traditional showroom, the dealer has already been chosen or at least narrowed down to 2 or 3 who happen to be in the neighborhood or in the neighborhood that''s been chosen to shop in. The specs come from a brief conversation with the salesperson and by actually looking at stones. There are no crown angles to be considered and HCA scores or ASET images are unheard of. People trust the jeweler because he’s their neighbor, because their friend or relative trusted her, because they have a store in the right neighborhood, because they have a relationship with a favorite designer or whatever. They choose a stone and move on to the next thing in their lives since most people don''t do this very often and don''t really want to become experts at it.

I think nearly everyone here would agree that, all things being equal, a local full service jeweler would be preferable to a long distance relationship but all things are rarely equal. For starters, Internet sites almost always feature better prices; often a lot better. They also have far greater visible selection and there are far more dealers to choose from. Even in big cities people rarely visit more than a half a dozen stores before making their selection while Internet shippers ‘virtually’ shop at thousands and can jump from one to the next in a fraction of a second. All this selection comes at a cost. People don’t know how to navigate it and the potential pitfalls are considerable. The intuitive feel that people have for stores that they like is missing. This is where the prosumers and their ‘bias’ come in. Even if we ignore the names of the dealers that are often recommended, it’s easy to identify the shared attributes of the folks on that list. They’re actually all terribly transparent in what they’re doing (which is one of the attributes people like). It’s also not correct to say that the list never changes. I haven’t been here as long as some others but I’ve seen several new names appear and a few old ones vanish. This list is not carved in stone. It probably wouldn’t be that hard to make a list of exactly how to get on it (mind you, it’s hard to actually do these things, it’s just not that hard to see what it is that they’re doing that makes them popular). This may not be the very best way to buy a diamond for everyone but it does seem to be darned effective given the limits and the opportunities of the venue. Frankly, I would be hard pressed to think up a better way for ‘consumers’ to navigate this system.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

 

[elle_chris]

Date: 7/29/2009 4:32:20 PM
Author: Rockdiamond
HI everyone!
Glitterata- I believe we are in total agreement.
I never meant to imply that anyone should have to hold back a criticism- just that it''s important to explain the reason behind it.
All the examples you gave had reasons behind them- and not necessarily ones that a vendor might like, or agree with. IN terms of this conversation, the reasons themselves are less important that stating those reasons.

Moh10 is a good example.
If he does not like a vendor, that is clearly his right- as is the right to express that.

Do you think that a person coming here for advice should be made privy to why someone is knocking a vendor? In essence without the reason why someone is knocking a company, there does not seem to be nearly as much value to the person asking.
''Don;t buy from that guy, because I don''t like how he behaves on a forum'' seems perfectly valid- as long as it''s expressed that way.
''Don''t buy from that company because they have bad diamonds- I know based on the forum postings'' even seems fair- because the person doing the knocking is at least being honest.
''I wouldn''t consider X company because I know they have bad diamonds'' when in fact the criticism is because the person simply dislikes the company for personal reasons seems a bit disingenuous- and far less informational.
Criticize as much as you want- but in fairness to all, specify when you criticize.
Does that make sense?

I said we''re in total agreement- but there is one point you made I feel differently about.
You said PS is a ''Consumer'' site.
IN fact, I believe- and their actions show this- that mgmt wants vendors AND consumers to use the site.
Can''t we vendors get value and enjoyment here too?

Blackjade- thanks. your posts have been dead on as well.

RD- This is a consumer site. Just because vendors, jewelers, appraisers and the like can post doesn''t change that fact. So what exactly are you saying?

 

[Regular Guy]

Date: 7/29/2009 4:55:55 PM
Author: denverappraiser


This may not be the very best way to buy a diamond for everyone but it does seem to be darned effective given the limits and the opportunities of the venue. Frankly, I would be hard pressed to think up a better way for ‘consumers’ to navigate this system.

Neil, some fresh and, (as usual) helpful perspective, sort of looking at the whole system, from some distance, and at an angle.

Thanks!

 

[Moh 10]

Date: 7/29/2009 4:32:20 PM
Author: Rockdiamond

Can't we vendors get value and enjoyment here too?

. . . and $ALE$ by posting a link to our website, without financially supporting PS like real PS vendors do.

 

[Lula]

Date: 7/29/2009 4:55:55 PM
Author: denverappraiser
In many but not all cases, bias is exactly what the poster is asking for. That’s why this is such a difficult subject to nail down and it’s far from a given that it’s bad. The skill set being offered up by the prosumers is decidedly different from what is being offered from the jewelers, even the jewelers who are active here. How so? First, most inexperienced consumers don’t have a context to work from in evaluating a dealer. They don’t know what a reasonable evaluation period is (or even that some dealers have them at all) and they’ve never even considered the topic of differences between the labs, trade in programs or that there are important details about stones that aren’t mentioned on the lab documentation. Naturally every dealer counts themselves as the ‘best’ for whatever reason and the successful ones have sales people who are good at explaining that to potential customers. A shopper who collects a few of these presentations is left with some decidedly conflicting advice. Pricescope adds a whole new layer by talking about ASET, IS, Sarin, HCA and other things that the local stores and even the dealers’ websites routinely have never even mentioned. That and they get hit with the database containing something like 60,000 stones where superficially similar or even identical stones will range by as much as 50% in price. Who’s surprised that people are confused? For nearly everyone buying a diamond, regardless of budget, it’s an expensive and important purchase. They seem to need assistance in 3 areas.

1) How do you choose a set of specifications that will end up with what you want (an awesome diamond for a price you can afford)?
2) How do you choose a dealer to provide that?
3) How do you pick the final stone?

This is VERY different from the traditional diamond shopping experience.

The intuitive feel that people have for stores that they like is missing. This is where the prosumers and their ‘bias’ come in. Even if we ignore the names of the dealers that are often recommended, it’s easy to identify the shared attributes of the folks on that list. They’re actually all terribly transparent in what they’re doing (which is one of the attributes people like).


Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

Wonderful post, Neil, especially the first part where you lay out the 3 areas with which consumers need assistance. I think what's been lost in this thread is how confusing and daunting the task of diamond shopping is to the typical shopper. People who post here for the first time often title their treads "confused"; "overwhelmed," etc. The prosumers guide the consumers through the 3 areas, the person makes a decision, and they go on with life. Vendors who make getting through the 3 areas easy for the consumer do well and are recommended over and over.

Those vendors who are transparent, as you note, do very well. I agree, and that's why I have recommended to vendors reading this thread and envying the success of the "preferred PS vendors" to evaluate their sites for transparency and ease of use.