5+ carat lab diamond - thoughts?

[twosanguinehearts]

TSH,

Don't forget about this one. It will be a 1.3 HCA score. And it fell smack in the middle of the GIA Triple EX; AGS Ideal 0 grading scale graph. When you get the HCA score don't forget to click on the link below showing where it will fall on the GIA and AGS grading scale.

The numbers are exactly the same as my MRB. Even the exact depth and angles crown, etc. (Mine is a 3.45 G SI1). I consider it a super ideal plus hearts and arrows stone as the ASET and Ideal Scope are really nice. Eventually I will do a thread on my stone.

6.52 carat (ct) IGI Round Loose Diamond F Color SI1 Clarity Excellent Cut

www.b2cjewels.com

Really good price too!

(I don't know how the difference in weight will affect the HCA Score)

Yes this one is still on my radar!!! I had run the HCA with the same results you mentioned! I typically like a smaller table - is your stone really fiery?? My main concern with this one is the sheer size. It’s probably amazing but will be GIANT!! lol

 

[DejaWiz]

Yes this one is still on my radar!!! I had run the HCA with the same results you mentioned! I typically like a smaller table - is your stone really fiery?? My main concern with this one is the sheer size. It’s probably amazing but will be GIANT!! lol

I'm still going to voice my concern regarding the internal graining shown on the inclusion plot for the 6.52 when I brought that up a couple of pages ago.
Yes, CVD have graining to some extent via the nature of the growth method, but when it's pointed out on the plot? Eh...tread carefully.

 

[ariel144]

I'm still going to voice my concern regarding the internal graining shown on the inclusion plot for the 6.52 when I brought that up a couple of pages ago.
Yes, CVD have graining to some extent via the nature of the growth method, but when it's pointed out on the plot? Eh...tread carefully.

Deja,
So how can you tell from the grading plot that it has graining? I know on GIA reports they will say "internal graining not shown" but it is a graded inclusion. Just curious.

 

[DejaWiz]

Deja,
So how can you tell from the grading plot that it has graining? I know on GIA reports they will say "internal graining not shown" but it is a graded inclusion. Just curious.

Hi ariel144,
It's right in the middle of the plot, under the table.

Verify Your Report

Ensure authenticity & accuracy of your report here. Verify your gemstone report online for complete confidence in your precious investments.

www.igi.org

Here's a better video of it:

https://labgrowns3.s3.ap-southeast-1.amazonaws.com/stoneimages360.html?d=1022381

Even though I recommended this diamond a couple pages ago, it would definitely be one of those "be prepared to send it right back" type of situations if it turned out to be a bit hazy/blurry looking. Impossible to know for sure without laying hands and eyes on it.

 

[ariel144]

TSH, Yes, my stone is very fiery! The table is 56.5% That is the only difference in the 6.52. Yes the small tables are nice. But it performs extremely well. The ASET and Ideal Scope are great too, IMO. I ordered my own scopes and took the pictures myself. Challenging but rewarding to check your own stone. It most likely has the graining as well because it is an SI1. but it doesn't make the stone hazy at all. All CVD's have graining...some is just worse than others but after watching Jon's video I wasn't that worried about it. I only paid $5200 for a 3.45c G SI1 super ideal, with H &A. 9.7mm. ( no tint either in my G color) Graining just didn't matter to me. I actually went way over budget to splurge on over 5k but I don't regret it. Don't have near the budget you have TSH! I had to cut back on my platinum mounting, so I am going to get a JA setting.

Here's the cert. Maybe those dotted lines are graining? I don't know....wish IGI would list the type of inclusions that were graded.
LG528239854

 

[ariel144]

Hi ariel144,
It's right in the middle of the plot, under the table.

Verify Your Report

Ensure authenticity & accuracy of your report here. Verify your gemstone report online for complete confidence in your precious investments.

www.igi.org

Here's a better video of it:

https://labgrowns3.s3.ap-southeast-1.amazonaws.com/stoneimages360.html?d=1022381

Even though I recommended this diamond a couple pages ago, it would definitely be one of those "be prepared to send it right back" type of situations if it turned out to be a bit hazy/blurry looking. Impossible to know for sure without laying hands and eyes on it.

Yes, those dotted lines. Does IGI have a chart defining their inclusions? How did you know that?

 

[ariel144]

But those linear dots don't look anything like the internal graining photographed by Jon on his video. Internal graining looks very different. If it was shown on the grading report, Jon would have stated that. He said you can't see it with the naked eye...He used some type of special lense to capture it and photograph it.

I tried to find a key to the inclusions on a report on the IGI site but couldn't find one.

Deja, please go back and watch Jon's video again....he showed specifically how internal graining can affect a CVD stone and how it does not affect a CVD stone. It ONLY AFFECTS IT IN SPOTLIGHTING. He shows it clearly in the video. I don't recall him saying that it could make it hazy or cloudy. But I'm sure it could.

 

[DejaWiz]

ariel144, I have seen most of Jon's videos and seen the one you keep referencing multiple times. I even chat with him outside of PS.
I have done lots of research on the two primary methods of LGD creation: HPHT and CVD. I have learned a lot from those in the trade here at PS as well as from renowned sources, including GIA, AGS, and IGI education articles.
GIA even states that clouds are amongst the most common grade-setting inclusion for CVD diamonds:

Observations on CVD-Grown Synthetic Diamonds: A Review | Gems & Gemology

Explores statistical data and defining characteristics of gem-quality CVD synthetic diamonds examined by GIA since 2003.

www.gia.edu

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/51562534_Theory_of_the_birefringence_due_to_dislocations_in_single_crystal_CVD_diamond

Jon has NOT personally vetted this particular diamond, so his video may or may not apply to it. And it's because he hasn't vetted it and gave it the "all clear" with that plot showing the graining is why I say: tread carefully.

Straining/graining is always a byproduct of the CVD growth method, therefore the possibility of issues associated with CVD should ALWAYS be checked for: light scattering (causing a hazy or cloudy appearance), excessive crystal inclusions, birefringence, and/or brownish, pinkish, or grayish hue. That's not even going into detail on some of the inferior equipment, contaminated chambers, and cheated growth process that many unscrupulous growers use.

These potential issues, making a CVD diamond appear unnatural in regards to optics, are why I am extremely hesitant to recommend them without personal vetting by a jeweler/gemologist with explicit experience and knowledge of CVD.

HPHT is much easier: the only optical and physical defects to really watch out for are color nuances (which is subjective), excessive inclusions (usually bits of metallic flux or flecks), and clouding.

IGI (just like AGS and almost every other grading lab) uses the same inclusion plot symbols as GIA.

 

[DejaWiz]

TSH, Yes, my stone is very fiery! The table is 56.5% That is the only difference in the 6.52. Yes the small tables are nice. But it performs extremely well. The ASET and Ideal Scope are great too, IMO. I ordered my own scopes and took the pictures myself. Challenging but rewarding to check your own stone. It most likely has the graining as well because it is an SI1. but it doesn't make the stone hazy at all. All CVD's have graining...some is just worse than others but after watching Jon's video I wasn't that worried about it. I only paid $5200 for a 3.45c G SI1 super ideal, with H &A. 9.7mm. ( no tint either in my G color) Graining just didn't matter to me. I actually went way over budget to splurge on over 5k but I don't regret it. Don't have near the budget you have TSH! I had to cut back on my platinum mounting, so I am going to get a JA setting.

Here's the cert. Maybe those dotted lines are graining? I don't know....wish IGI would list the type of inclusions that were graded.
LG528239854

Yes, those dotted lines are graining.
Rather minor under the table, and possibly moderate in the spot under the crown...your diamond has an advantage with that because the crown area is the perfect place for most inclusions to be concealed/obscured from the scintillation, sparkle, and dispersion aided by virtual facets.

 

[Karl_K]

si1 based on graining needs caution and the only sure way to tell is to eyeball it under various lighting not video which can both overstate and or hide the issues.

 

[DejaWiz]

si1 based on graining needs caution and the only sure way to tell is to eyeball it under various lighting not video which can both overstate and or hide the issues.

Thank you, Karl_K.
That's exactly the point I was (extravagantly) trying to get across...thank you for simplifying it.

 

[ariel144]

Here's my stone on Ritani;

3.45 Carat Round Lab Diamond IGI LG528239854 | Ritani

3.45 Carat Round Lab Diamond ID Cut G Color SI1 Clarity with diamond report number IGI #LG528239854

www.ritani.com

IGI (just like AGS and almost every other grading lab) uses the same inclusion plot symbols as GIA.
Deja, thanks...that was the answer I was looking for.

 

[ariel144]

Yes, those dotted lines are graining.
Rather minor under the table, and possibly moderate in the spot under the crown...your diamond has an advantage with that because the crown area is the perfect place for most inclusions to be concealed/obscured from the scintillation, sparkle, and dispersion aided by virtual facets.

Thanks Deja

 

[Diamond Girl 21]

Yes, those dotted lines. Does IGI have a chart defining their inclusions? How did you know that?

Sorry to thread jack, but I thought the dotted lines are showing growth remnants (ie lab grown equivalent of internal characteristics), not stria (lab grown equivalent of graining). I've watched John's videos as well, and thought I understood. Now I'm confused again. My lab diamond is CVD. I'm sure there is stria, but it is completely eye clean in all lighting environments. The plot shows what I would consider pinpoints. Are these pinpoints referencing stria? @DejaWiz or anyone else willing, please clarify as I am completely confused. I apologize posting this on your thread OP, but thought it would be useful to you as well.

 

[ariel144]

? Is Jon's video dealing with "internal graining" and the dotted lines are showing "graining"? Are these two separate grading issues? Yes agree it's confusing. I was looking at some GIA plots to see the symbol for "graining" but I guess it is rare on earth mined diamonds, so I couldn't find that symbol in my search.

I do remember seeing on GIA plots it sometimes saying "Internal Graining not shown". So that is the reason for my question.

Deja stated that those dotted straight lines ARE the symbol for "graining" and most all grading labs use the same symbols for inclusions.

OK so on IGI..."RED shows INTERNAL CHARACTERISTICS" AND "GREEN shows external characteristics". So the red dotted lines are 'INTERNAL graining". Partially answering my own question.

So I guess they can be two separate issues i.e. "internal graining" and "external graining"????

 

[ariel144]

Sorry to thread jack, but I thought the dotted lines are showing growth remnants (ie lab grown equivalent of internal characteristics), not stria (lab grown equivalent of graining). I've watched John's videos as well, and thought I understood. Now I'm confused again. My lab diamond is CVD. I'm sure there is stria, but it is completely eye clean in all lighting environments. The plot shows what I would consider pinpoints. Are these pinpoints referencing stria? @DejaWiz or anyone else willing, please clarify as I am completely confused. I apologize posting this on your thread OP, but thought it would be useful to you as well.

Graining can affect clarity to the human eye (especially in SI1 CVD) but not necessarily; so as Karl stated; you have to view the stone in person to see if it is causing haziness or cloudy spots. None of that on my stone either in all lighting conditions and it is SI1.

TSH would have to view the stone she is considering in person to know on the SI1's she is looking to purchase.

Although Ritani will call in the stone to view it and check to authenticate that it is the stone on the IGI cert. So they should also be able to let her know if there is any haziness in the stone. But she can also request that Ritani ask the original vendor about any haziness too before they send to Ritani. That would be the best option IMO. Getting the ASET and asking about the graining issues from the original vendor.

 

[ariel144]

3.01 Carat round diamond

This 3.01 carat round diamond H color i1 clarity has Excellent proportions and a diamond grading report from GIA

www.jamesallen.com

4.02 Carat round diamond

This 4.02 carat round diamond I color si2 clarity has Very Good proportions and a diamond grading report from IGI

www.jamesallen.com

"Surface graining not shown" on both of these GIA's


Inclusions are listed in the order that they affect the clarity on GIA reports. Worst inclusion being listed first.

 

[DejaWiz]

Sorry to thread jack, but I thought the dotted lines are showing growth remnants (ie lab grown equivalent of internal characteristics), not stria (lab grown equivalent of graining). I've watched John's videos as well, and thought I understood. Now I'm confused again. My lab diamond is CVD. I'm sure there is stria, but it is completely eye clean in all lighting environments. The plot shows what I would consider pinpoints. Are these pinpoints referencing stria? @DejaWiz or anyone else willing, please clarify as I am completely confused. I apologize posting this on your thread OP, but thought it would be useful to you as well.

Dotted circular/oval = growth remnant
Dashed circular/oval= cloud
Dashed straight = graining

 

[Diamond Girl 21]

? Is Jon's video dealing with "internal graining" and the dotted lines are showing "graining"? Are these two separate grading issues? Yes agree it's confusing. I was looking at some GIA plots to see the symbol for "graining" but I guess it is rare on earth mined diamonds, so I couldn't find that symbol in my search.

I do remember seeing on GIA plots it sometimes saying "Internal Graining not shown". So that is the reason for my question.

Deja stated that those dotted straight lines ARE the symbol for "graining" and most all grading labs use the same symbols for inclusions.

OK so on IGI..."RED shows INTERNAL CHARACTERISTICS" AND "GREEN shows external characteristics". So the red dotted lines are 'INTERNAL graining". Partially answering my own question.

So I guess they can be two separate issues i.e. "internal graining" and "external graining"????

Here are the symbols GIA uses for earth grown diamonds. Just included it because you were looking for it.

 

[Diamond Girl 21]

Dotted circular/oval = growth remnant
Dashed circular/oval= cloud
Dashed straight = graining

Thank you for the clarification.

 

[Diamond Girl 21]

Dotted circular/oval = growth remnant
Dashed circular/oval= cloud
Dashed straight = graining

So for further clarification, the occasional pinpoint in a VVS2 is just a pinpoint and not graining?

 

[DejaWiz]

So for further clarification, the occasional pinpoint in a VVS2 is just a pinpoint and not graining?

Correct. A pinpoint is usually a very tiny dot of crystal/carbon.

 

[Diamond Girl 21]

Correct. A pinpoint is usually a very tiny dot of crystal/carbon.

Thanks Deja! I took the Graduate Diamonds class at GIA, but LGs are unique IMHO, and still throw me off a bit. Different things to consider. Appreciate all your help.

 

[ariel144]

I've been scanning only GIA lab diamond reports, and I have not seen one report showing graining as a part of the inclusions.

A "dot" is a "growth remnant". And a "solid straight line" is also a "growth remnant".

So I'm starting to conclude a "dotted straight line" on a IGI report must also be a "growth remnant". But what do I know?

 

[ariel144]

On the 6.52 in question, those are "dotted straight lines" are they not? I'm not seeing a straight line with dashes on that report. Not trying to be difficult here. Just attempting to clarify.

 

[Diamond Girl 21]

I've been scanning only GIA lab diamond reports, and I have not seen one report showing graining as a part of the inclusions.

A "dot" is a "growth remnant". And a "solid straight line" is also a "growth remnant".

So I'm starting to conclude a "dotted straight line" on a IGI report must also be a "growth remnant". But what do I know?

I've never seen it on a report either.

I agree. It would be nice to have a clear key on the LG lab reports. Although in fairness, I haven't seen that many reports.

 

[Karl_K]

I've been scanning only GIA lab diamond reports, and I have not seen one report showing graining as a part of the inclusions.

On gia mined diamond reports the graining is a comment and if the grade is based on graining the comment is clarity grade based on internal graining not shows or similar.
I have not seen it plotted.
I have not seen enough of the gia lab diamond reports to say if they are doing the same thing.

 

[ariel144]

GIA - Report Check

www.gia.edu

Closest I've seen to a dotted straight line on LGD GIA report..."growth remnant"

Even a "dot" is a "growth remnant"

GIA - Report Check

www.gia.edu

Using earth mined diamond grading symbols on a LGD report...not applicable. GIA LGD grading reports only show mostly, feathers, growth remnants, even the dotted circles/ovals are shown as "growth remnants". straight lines are growth remnants. All the circles whether solid line or dotted are "growth remnants". LGD to earth mined inclusion grading...is comparing apples to oranges IMHO.

I've looked at close to 40 SI2 GIA LGD grading reports so far. And this is my conclusion.

Interesting CVD I1 !!!!

GIA - Report Check

www.gia.edu

A more Complete list:

GIA - Report Check

www.gia.edu

 

[ariel144]

On gia mined diamond reports the graining is a comment and if the grade is based on graining the comment is clarity grade based on internal graining not shows or similar.
I have not seen it plotted.
I have not seen enough of the gia lab diamond reports to say if they are doing the same thing.

On the 6.52 IGI grading report that TSH's is considering...there is "no comment" regarding "graining".

The issue in question is:
are those "dotted straight lines" "growth remnants" or "graining"??? Deja believes it is "graining". I've come to the conclusion they are simply "growth remnants".

 

[Ibrakeforpossums]

If that's a B2C diamond,, I think they'd get photos/videos for you. I've had them reach out to their supplier before ordering if I had a question and I saw an informal video of my yellow EC before I bought it.
Also, I would call IGI and ask for clarification on their reports, about their symbols and comments. You're not asking them for an opinion on the stone, just an explanation of how to interpret the report.