What teachers really want to tell parents

[ksinger]

Oops, I thought you were in the US, mscushion! Sorry about that. It's interesting to learn about the education system in other parts of the world.

MC -- When you say "5/6 split," I take that to mean that your son is in a multi-age classroom with both 5th and 6th graders. I've worked in a school where we had a lot of multi-age classes, as well as looping classrooms (the teacher stayed with her class for two years and then went back down to the lower of the two grades for another 'cycle') and traditional classrooms. The multi-age classes are very interesting because there's so much going on at any given time. I think there's a different level of learning in these classrooms than there is in traditional classrooms.

If you don't mind me saying so, I can see where your son's teacher is coming from. It sounds like she's trying to foster/encourage additional friendships between your son and his classmates besides the friendships he already has. I don't see anything wrong with that. He might get to know some of his classmates in a different way, and he'd at least interact with others he might not usually interact with. I read your comments and I thought it could be a good thing to try to broaden his horizons. That's just my take on it anyway. I'm sorry you were frustrated.

Ksinger -- That's interesting that your husband feels that it's not a teacher's responsibility to worry about their students' emotional state and happiness. I think that's a really important part of teaching. Not worrying so much as just being there and helping kids express themselves in all ways and helping them feel safe and that it's okay to take risks. To me, taking a child's emotional state into account when thinking about classroom dynamics is very important. I'm not talking about coddling. That happens far too often I think, and I think it just looks silly when you're talking about an older child especially. By the way, MC, I'm not saying that I think you're coddling your son. I'm actually thinking of parents I know who step in and try to fix everything for their child without letting him/her do things independently and figure things out on their own.

I'm talking about the coddling. Please understand where my husband stands - and I think you do - He's at the terminus - 10th and/or 11th grade - he is end of the road. By this time things are getting pretty serious and chances and excuses are running out. These are not strictly children anymore, they are increasingly young adults - about to go out into a big wide world that will NOT CARE about their emotional state, a lesson that teachers also need to help them learn before they exit the building . And unlike in the lower grades, he sees daily the accumulated results of too much helicoptor parenting and the making of excuses - sometimes by teachers themselves. He also gets to sit in the crosshairs of society's ire when a child - that product of 17 years of experience and pattern - does not do as well as society thinks he/she should. He has mentioned before, and I have witnessed it in discussions and social outings with his previous middleschool colleagues, and even here on this board at times, the vast gulf between the elementary mindset and the highschool mindset. And it IS vast.

He does understand that emotions affect learning, (lol! doesn't he just! Remember, he spent about 5 years teaching middleschool) but as his stage he is trying to get them to pass an EOI to graduation, not be their shrink. It's not that he doesn't care, it's that emotional state is not his primary focus, and for him it would probably not be if he taught first grade OR twelfth. There is a reason he gravitated to highschool. He is that teacher who has a "reputation". He is tough. He will give you a bad grade or fail you if you don't do the work, much to the chagrin of admin who dislike their graduation stats not looking right. (And he takes heat for that, believe me. The forces arrayed against teachers, in this state at least, who draw lines in sand are considerable.) Coaches have been known to steer their star fooball guys away from his class because they don't want to risk them getting benched. His primary focus is TEACHING YOUR CHILD. The status of their extracurriculars or their "happiness" at that prospect is of little concern to him.

He is actually far more compassionate in person than his internal thought process (which you were just privy to) would indicate. If a child is in genuine distress he tries to help, he calls parents (he even maintains a dedicated phone line, on OUR nickel, for parents to call about their kids), alerts the admin and counselors, all those things that a teacher should do. But if your kid is in a bad mood or down for a day or two or upset all of sudden at the 11th hour that they're flunking due to cutting class 50% of the time? Nope. That's life. Time to toughen up kiddo.

I promise he does not say awful things to parents and he is very tactful. But he is also an extremely direct, non-BS, and bluntly honest person and will tell you the truth, and sometimes parents just won't have it because it is too painful, even delivered as gently as possible.

 

[MichelleCarmen]

MC -- you have two formal conferences per year with your sons' teachers? We only have one, and that's around the first quarter, right after the first report card goes home. Of course, we can often ask for another conference with particular parents if need arises during the year. I think it makes sense to have three -- one in Nov., one in March, and one before school gets out in June.

Yes, and it sounds like parents are lucky at my kids' school to have two. One in the fall and one in the spring. I've also been told by teachers that I can request a final year conference. I didn't do so last year because it didn't appear to be a need, but this year, there will be because of him being in the 5/6 class and he's doing the 6th grade work (except for math) and next year it's almost if he's going to be taking 6th again so it's recommended he stay in the split or he'll be extremely bored, but it'd be nice if his final year of elementary included a class of his peers rather than only 11 other 5th graders and then the rest being 6th.

I'm also REALLY confused by what is expected of him...hopefully curriculum night clears that up or I'll be emailing the teacher every day.

I hope you get it figured out soon, MC. I usually offer the chance for parents to have a mid year and end of year conference in addition to the one we're expected to do. I'm always surprised at how many parents don't sign up for the mid year or spring conference. I guess it's probably because if I haven't reported any issues, many parents don't see the need.

Zoe - this thread prompted me to go in and talk to my son's teacher after school today. I pretty much heard what I expected. That he's doing fine acedemically, but the 5/6 split is not a good social mix for him. Having none of his friends in class has created a bit of isolation. His teacher told me the worst thing I can do is switch him to one of the standard 5th grade classes w/a friend b/c that will prevent him from preparing for middle school where he will often find none of his friends in his class, so we should keep him as is.

It was an okay conversation, but a bit of tension b/c I know that the teacher has only been at this school for two years and when teaching a split, parents are especially picky and concerned and she felt a bit defensive - very lightly, though. I think his teacher will do a good job, it's just difficult when I know my son and KNOW he doesn't like to make new friends (at school - he's fine in our neighborhood - it's just he has his clique at school) and it's not her job to create friends for him. She gave me the names of two kids whom she felt would mesh with my son and my son said no to both

I really have to VENT about how parents aren't consulted when their kids are placed in a split! Shouldn't we have a say?

MC, my husband agrees with you son's teacher. I ran this scenario by him, if for no other reason than I was unsure what a 5/6 split was. He is not an elementary teacher, and of course you're in another state, but he's assuming that your son is doing 6th grade work with 6th graders, at least part of the time? Anyway, my husband has taught middleschool and highschool, so is experienced at both, so here goes....here is a REAL "what the teacher wants to tell the parent"

He points out, less gently alas, than your son's teacher, that your son's unwillingness to make new friends is really not the school's concern, beyond of course making sure he isn't showing signs of being suicidal or something like that. They are there, primarily, to teach your child, not to worry 24/7 about his emotional state of the day.

His school years - and life - is not going to get any easier as he goes along is it? Your concern for your son's happiness is the real issue here, and happiness is not what the schools are for. (As I recall from my own experience, I was totally miserable in 7th grade. The whole year. Isolated. Out of sorts. My mom didn't swoop in and try to save me from the fact that I had a hard time dealing. I just lived through it.) What could easily amount to a fleeting discomfort with a new situation could drive YOU to push for what in the end, might be detrimental to your son's academic success. Are you handicapping him by making his life too easy? You say he's doing well, don't you want that over how he feels today?

I would bet some money that if your son was happy as a clam in strictly 5th grade classes, you'd be upset that he wasn't being given challenging enough course work. You're asking too much, especially of the public schools -to provide both academic rigor AND make sure that your son is happy. It sounds like your school system is at least acknowledging that your son is beyond his grade, and offering him the chance to do coursework beyond his grade. Sounds like they're doing a pretty good job to me.

Bottom line, excellence is often uncomfortable. It is unconcerned with happiness. It requires work, work that has nothing to do with how you feel about it at a single moment in time. Muscles, both physical and mental, are developed by doing hard work, tearing, and healing. YOU need to decide - do you want academic rigor and excellence or perpetual happiness for your child, because you can't have both. Period.

Like it or loathe it, the public school system is this country is based on the industrial model - it is geared to averages - and teaching ALL children. If you want personalized attention to the level that your seem to, you need to add it yourself. Either add the extra material at home so your son can stay happy in 5th grade, or pay for a tutor who will do exactly as you direct.

Ksinger - yes, I entirely agree. First off the split is 5/6 where the kids are mixed together in class (rather than seperated one grade per side of room) and taught mostly the same material except the 6th graders are moved into the 6th classes for math and "specialist" class, which is just music. The two grades do all else together - PE, library, etc.

The basic concept is that splits are for overload issues. They have only so many teachers and too many kids (520 in his school) so they take the more "independant ones" and put them into the split. In theory, the kids are taught their own grade levels, but his teacher told me she will be teaching him (and his peers) higher grade course work b/c his test scores are high, etc., so hopefully he is challenged but not overly so that he's discouraged - his first quiz score was a bit frightful.

Yes, I do want him to be happy all the time, but of course, that will never be the case. The two regular 5th classes are packed, so we did luck out and yes, had he been put into one of those I'd be bitching about something else, like the monster kids. I'm not going to home school him, so possibly we did get the lucky break in that my son has been provided this opportunity to be taught higher level by a teacher w/two masters and two Phd's!

I guess it's my job as the parent then to ensure he has enough social time out of school to make up for the lack of it in school!

Thanks for your input/post!

 

[zoebartlett]

Oh I definitely don't think families should rely on schools to parent for them. I just know that so much of what we do in elementary school is helping kids with their social and emotional growth, as well as academic growth. I've spent many, many parent conferences discussing academic AND social/emotional issues.

I agree with you on this one, Zoe. I think there's a line, though, and for some reason a lot of parents seem to think that it is the sole responsibility of the school to teach certain things, where I believe that is just a recipe for failure.

I'm thinking more along the lines of the parent who blames the school when her teenage daughter gets pregnant. I'm not exaggerating, this happens! Or the parent who blames the teacher that her son is behind in math, when really it is the joint responsibility of the school and the parents to make sure a student learns what he needs to learn. Kids don't just magically fall behind because of one bad teacher, it's a mixture of a mediocre teacher, plus mediocre support at home, (or neither of these but other sources of problems) etc. We can only give them the tools for learning, they have to be used and reinforced outside of the classroom if any learning is to happen. And if the parents aren't giving the support, the schools TRY THEIR BEST to make up for it, just as if the school isn't satisfying a parent's desires for her child, the parents must TRY THEIR BEST to make up for that, as well. If everyone expects someone else to get it done, nobody is going to end up doing it.

Sorry if I sounded like I was disagreeing with you, Zoe. I wasn't. I do think the social/emotional learning standards go a bit far, especially at the high school level, and they're symptomatic of a societal belief that the school should provide parenting in addition to an education. Some of these things are par for the course, such as certain social and emotional skills and experiences for elementary school students, but some of them are just plain ridiculous.

No need to apologize. It would have been okay if you were disagreeing with me, but I think we do agree. For what it's worth, I think I came across as defensive but I didn't mean to. Tone doesn't always translate over the computer. Parents and schools should work together more often and stop playing the blame game. Both have an important job to do.

 

[MichelleCarmen]

Oops, I thought you were in the US, mscushion! Sorry about that. It's interesting to learn about the education system in other parts of the world.

MC -- When you say "5/6 split," I take that to mean that your son is in a multi-age classroom with both 5th and 6th graders. I've worked in a school where we had a lot of multi-age classes, as well as looping classrooms (the teacher stayed with her class for two years and then went back down to the lower of the two grades for another 'cycle') and traditional classrooms. The multi-age classes are very interesting because there's so much going on at any given time. I think there's a different level of learning in these classrooms than there is in traditional classrooms.

If you don't mind me saying so, I can see where your son's teacher is coming from. It sounds like she's trying to foster/encourage additional friendships between your son and his classmates besides the friendships he already has. I don't see anything wrong with that. He might get to know some of his classmates in a different way, and he'd at least interact with others he might not usually interact with. I read your comments and I thought it could be a good thing to try to broaden his horizons. That's just my take on it anyway. I'm sorry you were frustrated.

Ksinger -- That's interesting that your husband feels that it's not a teacher's responsibility to worry about their students' emotional state and happiness. I think that's a really important part of teaching. Not worrying so much as just being there and helping kids express themselves in all ways and helping them feel safe and that it's okay to take risks. To me, taking a child's emotional state into account when thinking about classroom dynamics is very important. I'm not talking about coddling. That happens far too often I think, and I think it just looks silly when you're talking about an older child especially. By the way, MC, I'm not saying that I think you're coddling your son. I'm actually thinking of parents I know who step in and try to fix everything for their child without letting him/her do things independently and figure things out on their own.

Zoe - Your district and mine appear to do the same. Split classes and the "looping" that you mentioned. I didn't know the name for that, but teachers seem to swap around grade levels and some teach splits one year and then move to a whole different grade so it's continual mix/match. We even had a teacher split last year. My son's grades went down that first few months b/c I think he was entirely confused by having two teachers swap teaching methods over the same subjects, then he did good the rest of the year.

Thanks...and yeah, I am frustrated, but possibly a bit w/my son too?! Maybe I should be "pushing" him a bit more? The two recommended kids are both in 6th. The teacher said she wouldn't suggest setting up any activities with any of the other 5th graders b/c they're problematic. lol Guess they're not as "independent" as initially determined.

 

[phoenixgirl]

Have we established that the author is a man? Ok, good.

I taught public school in the US for 8 years, and while the vast majority of parents were supportive and understanding, there were definitely those that coddled and deflected. A 12 year old took a book from my personal collection so she wouldn't get a 0 for not having a book in her reading class. The conversation over the phone with her mother went like this. Me: "I was hoping you would explain to [Student] that it's not appropriate to take other people's things." Her: "Well, don't you take nothin' from her!" Me: "Um, what do you mean?" Her: "You probably going to steal somethin from her now!" Me: "Um, I find it absurd that you would even suggest that." Then I had to have a completely pointless meeting with both her parents and the vice principal to discuss my horrible accusations against their innocent daughter (note that I never turned her in for disciplinary action - her only consequence was a phone call home). I understood why she took the book - I never thought she was some malicious thief - but the parents seemed to think the issue was my opinion of their daughter rather than her actions.

Another time a 16 year old boy sent me a very explicit email telling me the exact dimensions of his "sword" - its length and curvature, etc. I took it to an administrator just to make sure I wasn't misinterpreting it, and she said, yup, that's definitely sexual harassment. Well, the incident ended with the parents sobbing and screaming at me in the administrator's office, and her telling me just to run away for my own good. But then they insisted it was all a misunderstanding and wanted an apology from me. Why couldn't they just say to their son, "We're sure you thought this was a harmless joke, but it's nothing to joke about, and you need to apologize to your teacher"? Again, it wasn't like I was going to file charges or write him up or anything, but a good parent would have told his child to apologize and used it as a teachable moment.

I could come up with another half a dozen examples like this without trying. Most years there would be at least one spectacularly defensive and outrageous parent who was blind to all reason. And unfortunately it's easy to fixate on those examples, especially in the early years of your career. After the third year or so, I was able to sit calmly during the histrionics or accusations or bizarre demands, state my decision and my rationale, and then move on.

And it's not just that it's shocking to be treated like a liar or like someone who would like nothing more than to steal books from children or make up falsehoods about them . . . it's compounded by the fact that administrators are facing the same pressure from the same parents, and will often fold to that pressure. When you're just out of school and teaching for the first time, and everyone acts like the incident you wrote up can't be held as truth because you didn't happen to videotape it or take sworn statements from 12 year olds before turning it in, then it's easy to feel like you're not respected. And that colors all your interactions with parents because you don't know when they'll be receptive and when they'll be calling the principal to insist you be fired.

I can't tell you the number of times I had a parent challenge a 0 for a plagiarized research paper . . . and really the only thing that saved my hide was that I had a plagiarism clause in my course expectations that they signed at the beginning of the year. Otherwise these parents would really argue that neither they nor their child knew it was wrong to copy and paste the paper off the internet. And that adds insult to injury because we spent many, many class periods going over every step of the research process, from note taking to citations to the difference between paraphrasing, summarizing, and crafting your own argument. But the zero is hurting my child's grade! Yes, true. But better to deal with that sting now than later on at the university level, don't you think?

Just to be fair to parents everywhere, I will give credit where credit is due. When I was student teaching, I discovered that two boys turned in essentially the same essay. The inquiry determined that Boy A had shown his paper to Boy B as an example without knowing Boy B would copy it, so in that sense, Boy A was "less guilty." Boy A was also the son of a prominent school board member and suffering from a terminal condition that would shorten his life. I was just a student teacher and didn't want to rock the boat, so I probably would have let Boy A off, but his father said, no, no, no, he shouldn't have loaned out his paper, even if he didn't know it would be copied. You should give him whatever punishment you think is fair. That is a healthy attitude and one I hope to have now that I am a parent. Protecting your children from the consequences of their actions will hurt them in the end.

 

[chemgirl]

Have we established that the author is a man? Ok, good.

I taught public school in the US for 8 years, and while the vast majority of parents were supportive and understanding, there were definitely those that coddled and deflected. A 12 year old took a book from my personal collection so she wouldn't get a 0 for not having a book in her reading class. The conversation over the phone with her mother went like this. Me: "I was hoping you would explain to [Student] that it's not appropriate to take other people's things." Her: "Well, don't you take nothin' from her!" Me: "Um, what do you mean?" Her: "You probably going to steal somethin from her now!" Me: "Um, I find it absurd that you would even suggest that." Then I had to have a completely pointless meeting with both her parents and the vice principal to discuss my horrible accusations against their innocent daughter (note that I never turned her in for disciplinary action - her only consequence was a phone call home). I understood why she took the book - I never thought she was some malicious thief - but the parents seemed to think the issue was my opinion of their daughter rather than her actions.

Another time a 16 year old boy sent me a very explicit email telling me the exact dimensions of his "sword" - its length and curvature, etc. I took it to an administrator just to make sure I wasn't misinterpreting it, and she said, yup, that's definitely sexual harassment. Well, the incident ended with the parents sobbing and screaming at me in the administrator's office, and her telling me just to run away for my own good. But then they insisted it was all a misunderstanding and wanted an apology from me. Why couldn't they just say to their son, "We're sure you thought this was a harmless joke, but it's nothing to joke about, and you need to apologize to your teacher"? Again, it wasn't like I was going to file charges or write him up or anything, but a good parent would have told his child to apologize and used it as a teachable moment.

I could come up with another half a dozen examples like this without trying. Most years there would be at least one spectacularly defensive and outrageous parent who was blind to all reason. And unfortunately it's easy to fixate on those examples, especially in the early years of your career. After the third year or so, I was able to sit calmly during the histrionics or accusations or bizarre demands, state my decision and my rationale, and then move on.

And it's not just that it's shocking to be treated like a liar or like someone who would like nothing more than to steal books from children or make up falsehoods about them . . . it's compounded by the fact that administrators are facing the same pressure from the same parents, and will often fold to that pressure. When you're just out of school and teaching for the first time, and everyone acts like the incident you wrote up can't be held as truth because you didn't happen to videotape it or take sworn statements from 12 year olds before turning it in, then it's easy to feel like you're not respected. And that colors all your interactions with parents because you don't know when they'll be receptive and when they'll be calling the principal to insist you be fired.

I can't tell you the number of times I had a parent challenge a 0 for a plagiarized research paper . . . and really the only thing that saved my hide was that I had a plagiarism clause in my course expectations that they signed at the beginning of the year. Otherwise these parents would really argue that neither they nor their child knew it was wrong to copy and paste the paper off the internet. And that adds insult to injury because we spent many, many class periods going over every step of the research process, from note taking to citations to the difference between paraphrasing, summarizing, and crafting your own argument. But the zero is hurting my child's grade! Yes, true. But better to deal with that sting now than later on at the university level, don't you think?

Just to be fair to parents everywhere, I will give credit where credit is due. When I was student teaching, I discovered that two boys turned in essentially the same essay. The inquiry determined that Boy A had shown his paper to Boy B as an example without knowing Boy B would copy it, so in that sense, Boy A was "less guilty." Boy A was also the son of a prominent school board member and suffering from a terminal condition that would shorten his life. I was just a student teacher and didn't want to rock the boat, so I probably would have let Boy A off, but his father said, no, no, no, he shouldn't have loaned out his paper, even if he didn't know it would be copied. You should give him whatever punishment you think is fair. That is a healthy attitude and one I hope to have now that I am a parent. Protecting your children from the consequences of their actions will hurt them in the end.

I've come across this at the University level and it rarely results in a zero. I can recall one class where a large portion of the students plagiarized their first paper (after the professor went over the academic honesty policy) and they claimed it was cultural. In the end, everyone who plagiarized was allowed to submit a new paper. Seriously....the argument was that they plagiarized after being told not to because its acceptable in their culture...right...

An ex bf used to be a teaching assistant at a private university where every zero was contested and they never stuck. One student submitted a printout of the wikipedia article on the topic and managed a passing grade He even had a few students submit papers months after the deadline and he was told by admin to grade the paper and take off %10 due to it being late. I can understand taking off a percentage if its a few days late, but there's a point where it has to end. These students didn't have medical forms or anything like that.

It seems like universities don't want to deal with angry parents either!