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Daisys and Diamonds

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Apr 30, 2019
Messages
10,630
It is awful.

And: the amount of fraud out there is just staggering -- especially right now. I don't know what a legitimate online merchant is supposed to do.

Just did my year-end review of every CC and bank account we have and noticed that an insurance agency was sneaking out 10 or 20 bucks extra each month in a separate transaction. I never noticed month-by-month until I sorted all my 1,000+ charges by payee and saw it was the exact same peculiar amount each month. I logged into my account with the payee and could not find record of the charges (?!). I called the payee and they could not find them either (!). I suspect a thief had "spoofed" the "description" of the legit payee and was siphoning off a little each month -- just a random amount that got lost in the many, transactions I have with this entity. VISA canceled the card.

Fortunate you noticed
i hope you will get the money back
 

Morenita21

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Nov 16, 2018
Messages
776
Did you end up purchasing it? Imagine what a hacker could do with this information if they hacked the seller's site.

They have your CC number, your phone number, email and address (which is usually required for an online sale), your driver's license, your picture and even your signature.

With this information I imagine it would be easy for an person skilled in identity theft to make a copy of your driver's license. After that it would be easy to get a copy of your birth certificate. Now they have all they need to get a replacement social security card. And now they are you. Right? Is this far fetched?

I did, however, I called them and asked that my personal information be destroyed once received. They were the only online retailer that had this machine and we really wanted it.
 

foxinsox

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jul 18, 2015
Messages
3,480
Goodness so they want you to hand over all the necessaries for enabling identity theft but have no policy in place to assure you that they’re handling and storing it properly and that it’ll be deleted once it’s no longer required! Total red flag.
 

susiegrneyes

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Jan 4, 2008
Messages
271
Visa and Mastercard place the burden of fraud on online retailers, so I can understand where JA is coming from. If you dispute the charge as fraud with your bank they will hand over the documents to your bank, so that they will deny your claim. As an alternative JA could use verified by Visa.
 

Piper70

Rough_Rock
Joined
Nov 19, 2019
Messages
78
89C84D08-83D2-4238-8B22-F82814AF9B80.jpeg
Um, no. Maybe if it were a high ticket item ( over $25,000 ) would I think some kind of authentication is okay. I would just do a wire transfer instead. I just bought a pair of diamond studs from Blue Nile and had none of this. With a brand new credit card too ( though I’ve been with Amex for 15 years ).
 

caolsen

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Feb 21, 2010
Messages
750
As a financial services professional, sending a full credit card number via an image along with a DL is beyond stupid, for the consumer and the liability for them is there, too.

What an idiotic business practice. Add James Allen them to the ’never by from them‘ list!
 

lissyflo

Brilliant_Rock
Premium
Joined
May 23, 2016
Messages
1,361
I think another poster mentioned this in a recent thread. Cant remember who, but I think the person's reaction was similar. I find it incredibly bizarre. I could understand wanting a pic of someone's CC as "proof " that they actually own the cc and didnt find the number somewhere. But the rest feels odd to me, especially when all taken together

I remember that post too and have a feeling it was re: WhiteFlash but may have been a requirement for ‘just’ a picture of the customer holding the credit card (I.e. not the driving licence details too). Someone please correct me if I’m wrong and I’ll delete this post. If it was WF, it may be that this policy is creeping in at a number of online vendors, which is highly discomforting as a consumer.

Even sending a picture of the consumer with their credit card seems open to abuse. What’s to stop someone else from hijacking and utilising the same picture to send fraudulently to retailers along with the card details? It doesn’t seem to add much protection for the consumer but does expose them to further risks. Doesn’t sending an approval code via verified by visa achieve a similar result with less risk/intrusion for the consumer? A positive of buying online is that your (recognisable) face isn’t associated with the purchase.
 
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AllAboardTheBlingTrain

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Apr 22, 2020
Messages
1,233
This sounds ludicrous in the extreme. Why can’t they just enable the Visa/MasterCard verification thing (requires either an established password, authentication on your banking app or a one time password depending on your bank; all of which do a much better and safer job of verifying my ability to pay than collecting and keeping all the info needed to steal my identity)??
 

YoungPapa

Shiny_Rock
Trade
Joined
Jun 18, 2002
Messages
442
Hi @mrs-b,

I'm sorry that you had a negative purchase experience, especially given your rich order history with our company. I believe you escalated your concern to a manager, who was able to locate your prior orders and approve the transaction without the need to provide additional verification.

On a more general note, I can confirm that James Allen is a fully PCI complaint organization and takes the security and privacy of our users very seriously. Any information that is sent to us is done via a fully encrypted and secure portal, and our document upload page contains the following instruction and disclaimer:

Screenshot_20210305-090652_Chrome.jpg
 

La2020

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Nov 15, 2020
Messages
596
I think another poster mentioned this in a recent thread. Cant remember who, but I think the person's reaction was similar. I find it incredibly bizarre. I could understand wanting a pic of someone's CC as "proof " that they actually own the cc and didnt find the number somewhere. But the rest feels odd to me, especially when all taken together

I think it was @Ibrakeforpossums? I cannot remember how the issue was resolved though.
 

mrs-b

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Aug 18, 2013
Messages
8,760
Hi @mrs-b,

I'm sorry that you had a negative purchase experience, especially given your rich order history with our company. I believe you escalated your concern to a manager, who was able to locate your prior orders and approve the transaction without the need to provide additional verification.

On a more general note, I can confirm that James Allen is a fully PCI complaint organization and takes the security and privacy of our users very seriously. Any information that is sent to us is done via a fully encrypted and secure portal, and our document upload page contains the following instruction and disclaimer:

Screenshot_20210305-090652_Chrome.jpg

Yes. I 'escalated my concern to a manager'. I was told somebody would get back to me - probably within 24 hours. I told them I'd just wait on the phone till they found somebody. So yeah, I escalated it to a manager. The second woman I was speaking to - who was very nice, by the way - found my order because, of course, I gave her my order number, which should bring up all my prior orders. I had already refused to provide the photo on the basis of being a prior customer (and on the basis that this is a really bad policy for your customers, tho I totally understand this may work for JA just fine).

I read your disclaimer before I called JA - and it isn't much of one. My "information is held in the strictest confidence" - I should just take your word for this? Seems to me that everyone is responsible for protecting their own information at this point in time and taking the word of someone I can neither see nor meet is naive. I brought up the last reassurance regarding the treatment of my info with the woman I spoke to about this and she had nothing to tell me re process or security. Blocking out the middle 8 digits of my CC is irrelevant since I've already given that info to you, so sticking my thumb over it the second time around counts for nothing. And have you tried to take a photo of your CC, your drivers license, and your face while blocking out the numbers on two different cards - while also holding a phone and pushing a button? I'm pretty sure most people give up and just send you whatever comes out. Regardless of vague provisos, you've set up a system where people have to send you a lot of personal information before JA will sell them a diamond. It puts the buyer at risk. And if you cannot see how uncomfortable it makes people having to send you a photo of their face, then - I mean this in the most respectful way - you're just not thinking.

But - all that aside......

Can you pls now reassure me that these photos will never be used for profiling customers?
 

missy

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jun 8, 2008
Messages
45,828
Not cool. And there are no guarantees. I’m sure most of us have received emails stating so and so has been compromised so please change all your passwords etc.

Yeah, just NO.

368034F5-5C40-4CD9-BD6C-30E9335230FD.gif
 

RunningwithScissors

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Apr 29, 2019
Messages
1,725
This practice is not safe for the customer, no matter what assurances the company makes.

Even if our information is encrypted, it is still handled and seen by employees and those employees are people. People make mistakes, both unintentional and intentional.

My husband works at our country's top nuclear weapons labs. Their facilities and employees are the most highly secure, most highly regulated, most highly vetted in the world. Yet security breaches -- both unintentional and intentional -- happen.

So if MIT trained nuclear scientists with all the resources at Uncle Sam's disposal can't create 100% security, then imagine the mistakes a for-profit company with minimum wage employees, who probably aren't treated very well, will make with our information.
 
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dk168

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jul 7, 2013
Messages
8,555
It did not come as a complete surprise, as my bro in Canada encountered similar requests when he tried to buy a limited edition coin from their official distributor.

They required for photo evidence of his CC front and back and something else, can't remember the details.

And we are not talking about a large sum of money being involved about 150 CAD.

On one hand I can appreciate vendor's need to be vigilant to minimise loss. On the other hand, I can also appreciate how intrusive it must make the customer feel, especially when new fraud prevention measures are being applied indiscriminately without taking into account existing customer relationships!

DK :roll2:
 

nojs

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Nov 22, 2014
Messages
239
I also feel that the protocol you described is ridiculous.

My first purchase from JA was in 2012 and the last (of many) was just a month ago. I used my work email to verify. I don’t feel good about that either, but it wasn’t that bad.

I do appreciate the prices of JA, although the customer service is not what it used to be.
 

MillieLou

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Feb 27, 2020
Messages
393
It's very off-putting and I wouldn't buy in this way. Even if entirely legitimate, it gives the impression of an unprofessional company with poor security if they have to rely on "selfies". I would expect them to invest in better security from their end rather than expecting customers to take on the risk.

I recently bought from Blue Nile, no selfies needed. If they can manage it, why can't a comparably large and international company like James Allen?
 

Lucy-In-The-Sky

Rough_Rock
Joined
Sep 14, 2017
Messages
51
VERY bad security practice, here.

I'm known as the lady to ask for help amongst my social circle and at work, if someone is buying a diamond. This is yet another reason I'll be steering friends/work colleagues away from JA.
 

flyingpig

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Nov 7, 2015
Messages
2,808
I just do not understand why companies rely on insecure and inefficient (and potentially illegal) ways to verify customer and CC info.
For an exisiting customer who uses the same card, this is not needed.
If the billing address on CC matches the shipping address, this is not needed.
And there are password protected authentocatiom systems available. (Eg verified by Visa)
It puzzles me that US merchants do not adopt better authentication systems. Heck.. they are even refusing chip card technology.
 
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lovedogs

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jul 31, 2014
Messages
12,822
I just do not understand why companies rely on insecure and inefficient (and potentially illegal) ways to verify customer and CC info.
For an exisiting customer who uses the same card, this is not needed.
If the billing address on CC matches the shipping address, this is not needed.
And there are password protected authentocatiom systems available. (Eg verified by Visa)
It puzzles me that US merchants do not adopt better authentication systems. Heck.. they are even refusing chip card technology.

This is what confuses me as well. I totally understand and support wanting to discourage/stop fraud. But there are SO many authentication systems that actualy work and are secure. WHY would any company rely on a freaking selfie?!
 

Mekp

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Oct 15, 2016
Messages
305
This happened to me as well during a recent purchase. There was no way in heck I was sending them that picture so I confirmed my identity with my work email. I didn't love that option either but it was definitely preferable.
 

PinkAndBlueBling

Brilliant_Rock
Premium
Joined
Dec 16, 2017
Messages
801
A quick Google search shows this has been happening for over a decade with various retailers. I stopped squirreling after half an hour after reading about lawsuits over comma placement. :wall: What matters are the T&Cs of Visa and MasterCard, plus state laws as to whether this is legal.

I'm not defending this practice. Just letting you know it's not just JA and it's been an issue for a long time, which I did not know.
 

La2020

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Nov 15, 2020
Messages
596
Actually, I will stop recommending JA to anyone anymore, coz my friend has an unpleasant experience after she has purchased from JA.


Imagine after going through such an intrusive "identification" process, only to be treated like this at the end of the sales, I had to apologize to my friend so many times. :x2
 
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La2020

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Nov 15, 2020
Messages
596
Yes. I 'escalated my concern to a manager'. I was told somebody would get back to me - probably within 24 hours. I told them I'd just wait on the phone till they found somebody. So yeah, I escalated it to a manager. The second woman I was speaking to - who was very nice, by the way - found my order because, of course, I gave her my order number, which should bring up all my prior orders. I had already refused to provide the photo on the basis of being a prior customer (and on the basis that this is a really bad policy for your customers, tho I totally understand this may work for JA just fine).

I read your disclaimer before I called JA - and it isn't much of one. My "information is held in the strictest confidence" - I should just take your word for this? Seems to me that everyone is responsible for protecting their own information at this point in time and taking the word of someone I can neither see nor meet is naive. I brought up the last reassurance regarding the treatment of my info with the woman I spoke to about this and she had nothing to tell me re process or security. Blocking out the middle 8 digits of my CC is irrelevant since I've already given that info to you, so sticking my thumb over it the second time around counts for nothing. And have you tried to take a photo of your CC, your drivers license, and your face while blocking out the numbers on two different cards - while also holding a phone and pushing a button? I'm pretty sure most people give up and just send you whatever comes out. Regardless of vague provisos, you've set up a system where people have to send you a lot of personal information before JA will sell them a diamond. It puts the buyer at risk. And if you cannot see how uncomfortable it makes people having to send you a photo of their face, then - I mean this in the most respectful way - you're just not thinking.

But - all that aside......

Can you pls now reassure me that these photos will never be used for profiling customers?

@mrs-b so well said, so true. Companies only give such standard -I-assure-you-that-your-credit-card-personal-details-are-protected-with-our-best-state-of-the-art-security-standards blah blah blah.

And when the information is hacked? They only email you a measly "we apologize for this and that".

Tiktok used videos of their customers to collect and store biometric data of people appearing in videos hosted on the platform without obtaining their explicit consent as required by law. Why would I believe JA will not do that?


And after seeing what my friend underwent (they promise her even prongs and refund but did not deliver: https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/ja-prongs-is-this-acceptable.263651/)

I am more convinced than ever that their promises only mean this much. When they do not deliver, they just simply "apologize" and that is it.
 
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Ibrakeforpossums

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Mar 21, 2019
Messages
496
There are going to be people who disagree with my take on this. So let me be explicit before I start.

THIS IS HOW I FELT.

It might not be how you feel. But - gees louise - it sure is how I felt!

I've been looking for a well matched pair of pears. I found one pear I loved on Blue Nile - but no match. So off I went to James Allen - a company I used to love but which I've used less and less since their decision not to post GIA certificates.

I found 2 I liked, and decided to buy them both. So I placed the order. Keep in mind, I've been buying diamonds from James Allen for over a decade.

I received an email confirming my order.

And then I received a second email - telling me they needed..."just a little more information."

They wanted....

A photo of my credit card.

They wanted....

A photo of my drivers license.

They wanted....

A photo of ME.

Yup. They wanted a SELFIE - of me - HOLDING my credit card and my license.

Before James Allen would sell me a diamond, they wanted a photo of my FACE.

I called them (hardly a surprise). And - equally unsurprising - I was not the first person who had complained! It was explained to me that this was in response to fraudulent activity they've experienced. The sales assistant told me it was only for loose diamonds, and only for new customers. I said - "You're looking at my record - you can see how long I've been buying diamonds from you." She told me there was a glitch in the system. But then she ALSO told me she didn't think she'd have bought something that required that process. I said to her - "I feel like James Allen is telling their customers - "Sure - we'll sell you a diamond! But first we want to take a good, long, look up your skirt." "

Nowhere in the email where they required this incredible invasion of my privacy did they assure me that my photo would be deleted-beyond-retrieval after the sale. So, yet again, as a customer, I am required to trust James Allen's integrity while they don't trust mine.

There is NO WAY I am sending that particular cocktail of my private information to a faceless website. And there is also NO WAY I will EVER AGAIN recommend this company to a newbie who comes to PriceScope looking for a diamond. People come here with questions and, most often, caution. Sometimes out and out distrust for the whole online process. What would they think of us, as a website, if we (people they don't know) refer them to a company (more people they don't know) who want photos of their license, their CC, and their FACE.

You've gotta be kidding me.

YES YES YES YES!!! They did that to me, 65 yr. old me who has a flip phone and a solid credit card!!
Well put, mrs-b! Well said, you are my hero again.
 
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