shape
carat
color
clarity

We'll sell you a diamond...but first we want to look up your skirt.

lambskin

Ideal_Rock
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Aug 22, 2012
Messages
2,592
I suspect James Allen changed from displaying GIA reports, like everyone else, to requiring personal info in order to get the reports for a peek up the skirt reason.

When you click on one of James Allen's diamond GIA thumbnail you get a pop up screen telling you to call an phone number with an 877 area code.
When you call any area code starting with 8 the entity you're calling captures your entire phone number.

More of the same yucky stealing of personal info. :nono:
... and this was not even to buy something, just to shop. :knockout:

Creepy!

Does that include the all encompassing 1-800-**** toll free numbers too?
 

lambskin

Ideal_Rock
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Maybe I'm missing something, but doesn't caller ID do that? Pretty much every phone call I get shows what number is coming in whether I know the person or not.

Our phone does not show the numbers of robo callers all the time. Rather, it will say private, unavailable or now, to show how clever they are, the number has the first three digits of our town‘s phone number exchange so it appears local.
 

missy

Super_Ideal_Rock
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46,891
Our phone does not show the numbers of robo callers all the time. Rather, it will say private, unavailable or now, to show how clever they are, the number has the first three digits of our town‘s phone number exchange so it appears local.

And, sometimes, it says probable spam and it is actually an important call. So I don't feel comfortable assuming something is spam if it says unavailable or even probable spam because caller id has shown itself to be unreliable. At least in our experience.
 

Lookinagain

Brilliant_Rock
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Our phone does not show the numbers of robo callers all the time. Rather, it will say private, unavailable or now, to show how clever they are, the number has the first three digits of our town‘s phone number exchange so it appears local.


And, sometimes, it says probable spam and it is actually an important call. So I don't feel comfortable assuming something is spam if it says unavailable or even probable spam because caller id has shown itself to be unreliable. At least in our experience.

My comment was in response to the statement that when you call any area code starting with 8 the entity you're calling captures your entire phone number. I was saying that I could see the numbers of the incoming calls with my caller ID so I don't understand what is different about an 800 number being able to "capture" your phone number. I wasn't addressing whether these incoming calls were spam or not. Or whether a name appears with the number. Rather that my cell robo app shows me all numbers coming in even if it blocks them. It may not have a name associated with the number; it might just say "spam risk" or "telemarketer", but it definitely shows me every phone number so I am "capturing" all those numbers and the app puts them into a log. Therefore the comment about any number starting with an 8 being able to capture your entire phone number didn't make sense to me because I thought all phones could do that.
Screenshot 2021-03-12 at 7.22.58 AM.jpg
 

Texas Leaguer

Ideal_Rock
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Jul 27, 2009
Messages
3,438
Well, this is certainly a mine field I would rather not venture into! But as Whiteflash has been mentioned multiple times in this thread, we think it is important to try to shed some light on the topic from our perspective. We know that people have strong opinions, and in this day and age of hacks and identity theft we can't blame anyone for being circumspect about their personal info.

I am going to have to be very general here. It probably comes as no surprise, given the nature of our products, that those of us in the diamond business are absolutely beset with fraud attempts. And they have in fact increased in the time of Covid. Many are easy to spot, but some are quite sophisticated. While credit cards give consumers great protections, merchants are essentially on the hook for any fraud that manages to defeat the safeguards. Over the years we have tried to strike a balance in protecting ourselves and our clients, but there are some procedures that customers think are unnecessary and burdensome or overly invasive. It is certainly their prerogative to decline, and some do. But because of our thoroughness, it is also not uncommon for us to alert a consumer to a fraud attempt in their name, and many have been grateful for the warning.

One might assume that there are authentication services that remove merchant liability and fully protect the clients’ personal information. That is simply not the case today.

The process we have developed over the years is somewhat complex with many layers that depend on the particular factors involved in the transaction. Giving a blueprint of our security procedures would obviously be irresponsible, but I can speak to a few things that have been brought out in this thread. First, we do not now, nor do we think we will need to in the future, require a selfie.

Secondly, if you are an existing Whiteflash client we are able to make exceptions to some of the requirements on a case by case basis. We most definitely value those relationships so please feel free to engage in that discussion with us.

Lastly I would say that we provide a wire transfer payment option which is much simpler and requires little personal information. And it saves the client the considerable fees associated with credit card processing. This is not an option for many customers who need to pay for the purchase in installments, but for those who can use it some of the concerns being addressed in this thread are avoided.
 
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mrs-b

Ideal_Rock
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Aug 18, 2013
Messages
9,392
I must be a sucker for punishment....

So since I'm a returning customer and I was told by the JA rep last time that these requests would not apply to returning customers (I mean - I was last time, too, but surely after last time they know I am....surely....), I figured I'd try again. I found a little diamond - $450 - and, given, as Young Papa said, my 'rich order history' with James Allen, I figured - surely this will go through without a hitch...surely?

Nope. Send us a business email. Or send us a selfie with your driver's license and credit card. So I thought - because I'm a patient woman - I'll try contacting them via chat. This is what happened....

Screen Shot 2021-05-17 at 5.00.17 PM.png

So since Tara disappeared, I'm calling. So far - wait time - 9 minutes and 39 seconds.....
 

marymm

Ideal_Rock
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Joined
Apr 21, 2010
Messages
4,703
geez super lame encounter -- sincerely wish we could say "how unexpected" but sadly not.

I really hope you love the little diamond mrs-b!
 

mrs-b

Ideal_Rock
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Joined
Aug 18, 2013
Messages
9,392
Finally reached someone after 16+ minutes. Spoke to Michelle - which is who I spoke to last time as well. (*edited to add - Michelle is lovely). She confirmed the email - tho she had no idea why I received it, given I'd been asked for extra info only shortly before. Perhaps the disappearing Tara got on the case in the end? We'll never know.

Lodged a complaint, tho I feel like these complaints can't possibly be new, so if JA cared to do anything about fixing it, they'd have done so by now. I really wish Blue Nile would expand their pear collection! I'd be happy to part ways with JA if I could go elsewhere. Going to call DKJ and ask them if they can source baby pears. (Why did I not think of this before??)
 

DejaWiz

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Apr 23, 2021
Messages
508
It wouldn't take much for them to set up two factor authentication during their transaction process...and it would be worlds more secure them sending identifying information through an email or website form submission.
 

mrs-b

Ideal_Rock
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Joined
Aug 18, 2013
Messages
9,392
mrs-b, I think we all want to see this diamond.

Lol - no problem! It's just a baby - .26ct E color - something-or-other clarity.... I want to do a 4 point charm to go in the middle-front of a diamond necklace.

 

caolsen

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Feb 21, 2010
Messages
866
Fraud has increased during COVID, but I’d still never, EVER buy from a company asking me to send a photo of my card or driver’s license. From a data protection point of view, that’s not the solution to fraud. I have process thousands of credit card fraud refund transaction as a banker so I have empathy for the customer and the merchant, but the selfie thing is beyond nuts. And to do this regardless of price is double nuts.

Offer me the option of using a 3rd party like a PayPal or Venmo where I pay the fee, . Yes - wires are a great option of you have the cash in hand.

The October 2016 liability shift puts the onus on the receiving party, aka JA here, but I have made a number of purchases on line since the shift, that are diamond price height but not diamonds, and have NEVER run into such a crazy thing. Birkin, Hermes saddle, a car! No one has asked for a selfie.
 

sledge

Ideal_Rock
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Apr 23, 2018
Messages
5,206
It’s hard to imagine In a world full of technology we haven’t found a better solution to the problem.

I am reminded of a recent purchase. I bought my wife a new MacBook and purposefully elected to use a specific Chase credit card as it adds 2 years of original manufacturer warranty on all my purchases for free. I carry 0 balance and pay in full when I do use, but that is beside the point.

As soon as I ran the card, I got an alert on my Apple Watch, a text message, an email and for 2 days a couple of calls from the fraud department (even after cleared). The calls were persistent and how I verified it was authentic. They cleared the hold in a matter of minutes and ultimately allowed me to pick up the MacBook in the store immediately.

Is it really that hard to build such a switch on the vendor side where a purchase greater than $X forces a fraud verification by the bank? It removes the vendor from the policing business and requires the customer to jump over a reasonable hurdle.
 

elle_chris

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Feb 19, 2004
Messages
3,249
Did this practice start after JA sold to the company that owns Jared/Kay's jewelers (can't remember their name)?
Because years ago they never requested anything like this.

Good to know though as I'll definitely be avoiding them in the future.
 

sledge

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Apr 23, 2018
Messages
5,206
Did this practice start after JA sold to the company that owns Jared/Kay's jewelers (can't remember their name)?
Because years ago they never requested anything like this.

Good to know though as I'll definitely be avoiding them in the future.

Signet Jewelry is the parent company.
 

YoungPapa

Shiny_Rock
Trade
Joined
Jun 18, 2002
Messages
445
Did this practice start after JA sold to the company that owns Jared/Kay's jewelers (can't remember their name)?
Because years ago they never requested anything like this.

Good to know though as I'll definitely be avoiding them in the future.

Hi @elle_chris,

We have had additional verification procedures in place for almost two decades, although as I said before - they only impact a small percentage of orders.

I also want to reiterate that NO James Allen customer is required to send us a 'selfie' to make a purchase. We offer alternative methods of payment, as well as alternative methods of verification - albeit they may not be convenient or appropriate for everyone.

Finally, I will add that we are looking at new technology and protocol that might make this entire conversation moot in the future. It's tough to balance fraud mitigation with a completely painless transaction process, but we understand how importat it is to our customers and are working towards that goal.
 
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mrs-b

Ideal_Rock
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9,392
I also want to reiterate that NO James Allen customer is required to send us a 'selfie' to make a purchase. We offer alternative methods of payment, as well as alternative methods of verification - albeit they may not be convenient or appropriate for everyone.

I find this curious.

I was offered 2 methods to confirm my purchase - which came to me in an email with the subject heading: Additional Information Is Required (which didn't seem all that optional!)

Here is option 1:

"The easiest way for us to get your order into production is if you are able to send us an email from a business account, such as your place of work. If you're active military or currently enrolled at a University, emails from those accounts are generally acceptable as well. What won't help us, however, are emails from "free" services such as Yahoo, Gmail, etc.

If you have a valid email that we can use to verify your order, please enter it below. The email will only be used for verification of your credit card data and will not be stored in our system or used as part of your JamesAllen.com order.

Business, University, or Government email address:"


So, I don't have any of those forms of email. I was offered one - and only one - other way of fulfilling the request I received from JA before my order would be processed. This is the option I was given and the only option available to me:

"If you do not have a business or school email, you may send us a ‘selfie’ holding your credit card and driver’s license or other government issued ID. To protect your personal information, you may black out the middle eight digits of your credit card as well as the license number from your identification. Please know that any information sent to us is held in the strictest confidence, never sold or shared, and destroyed once your transaction is complete.

To upload images of your ‘selfie’ with credit card and ID in hand, please click the upload button below and select the images you would like to submit. Please note, you may upload up to five image files (a maximum size of 1.5 MB each). All files must be in gif, jpg or png format:

UPLOAD FILES
Drag & Drop Files

We are eager to get your order into full production and would like to avoid any shipment delays; so the sooner we can receive this information the better. Upon verification of the order, an email will be sent to you confirming that the order has been moved into production, along with your expected ship date." (Note: all bold was from JA, not me)

The last paragraph seems pretty self explanatory to me - provide the information and we'll process your order AT THAT POINT. To say JA doesn't require a selfie to make a sale is fancy footwork.
 

MamaBee

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Mar 31, 2018
Messages
10,711
@mrs-b I would have given up at that point. You have much more patience than I would have. I already pass up diamonds where I can’t get the GIA report. I want a quick look to see where the inclusions are. If I have to do that with each diamond I would never get anywhere....It’s too much wasted time..
 

distracts

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Oct 11, 2011
Messages
5,888
I'm kind of surprised at the "send us an email from your work email" option. Doing that would violate corporate policy for nearly every company I've ever worked for! (ie, using corporate email for personal use/non business use)

Yeah. This sort of thing is becoming increasingly common. When I was looking for a new cat several years ago, just about every rescue wanted to call and verify employment with your employers. Which, wtf? That seems rampantly unprofessional - and if they don't know you're looking for a cat, they may think you are job hunting, which may put your job at risk. I get wanting to be cautious about stuff but messing with work is definitely a no from me.
 

Johnbt

Shiny_Rock
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Mar 13, 2018
Messages
307
I've been retired since 2012 and there is never an option to have your private banker, wealth manager or family office manager contact them and tell them to act right, be polite and start making sense. Or anything remotely similar.

Wouldn't it be nice if you could just send them a picture of you sitting on a pile of your money. :)

Yeah, the world is full of thieves and some are buying and some are selling. Oh well. Not too many decades ago - like 40 or 50 years - it was common to have your Social Security Number printed on your personal checks under your address. The merchants wrote it on there anyway after reading it off your driver's license. Yeah, I'm old. ;-)
 

snowballs mom

Rough_Rock
Joined
Nov 24, 2017
Messages
100
I've been retired since 2012 and there is never an option to have your private banker, wealth manager or family office manager contact them and tell them to act right, be polite and start making sense. Or anything remotely similar.

Wouldn't it be nice if you could just send them a picture of you sitting on a pile of your money. :)

Yeah, the world is full of thieves and some are buying and some are selling. Oh well. Not too many decades ago - like 40 or 50 years - it was common to have your Social Security Number printed on your personal checks under your address. The merchants wrote it on there anyway after reading it off your driver's license. Yeah, I'm old. ;-)

I went to college in the 1970s - they used our SSN as our student ID number...
 

mrs-b

Ideal_Rock
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Aug 18, 2013
Messages
9,392
@mrs-b I would have given up at that point. You have much more patience than I would have. I already pass up diamonds where I can’t get the GIA report. I want a quick look to see where the inclusions are. If I have to do that with each diamond I would never get anywhere....It’s too much wasted time..

I never ever hold a grudge, @MamaBee, and I always give second chances. So I was thinking...if I don't have to jump through hoops...happy to revisit. But after waiting 9 minutes for someone on the chat function who didn't get back to me, then over 16 minutes for someone to answer my phone call, only to be told that what I was told *last* time - that if you were a returning customer you wouldn't need to jump through these hoops - was flat out incorrect - I really am done now. I also think JA's prices have gone up and are no longer competitive with BN. From now on, I think I'll be hitting up DKJ more if I want stones of this size.
 

MamaBee

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Mar 31, 2018
Messages
10,711
I never ever hold a grudge, @MamaBee, and I always give second chances. So I was thinking...if I don't have to jump through hoops...happy to revisit. But after waiting 9 minutes for someone on the chat function who didn't get back to me, then over 16 minutes for someone to answer my phone call, only to be told that what I was told *last* time - that if you were a returning customer you wouldn't need to jump through these hoops - was flat out incorrect - I really am done now. I also think JA's prices have gone up and are no longer competitive with BN. From now on, I think I'll be hitting up DKJ more if I want stones of this size.

@mrs-b I would do the same...give them a second chance..If I had to jump through hoops the second time I would have to really love those pears..haha Then I would be done.
I want to ask you a question about your setting. I’ll go over to Missy’s thread.
 
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