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Vendors who don’t Copyright their designs

Would you have a replica made of a designers jewellery?

  • Yes

    Votes: 30 57.7%

  • No

    Votes: 7 13.5%

  • Depends who the designer is

    Votes: 15 28.8%
  • Total voters
    52
Maisie

Maisie

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Dec 30, 2006
Messages
12,596
So after my thread went a little bit off course I wanted to start a discussion about design replicas, what is ok to do, what isn’t and who is fair game.

If a designer doesn’t copyright their design does it mean it can be copied? I suppose it might be difficult to copyright a jewellery design. A lot of it has been done before. Is it a challenge/expensive to copyright a design? Is that why some vendors don’t do it and hope that people will respect their ideas as original?

Is it ok to copy a ring from one of the big jewellery houses such as Tiffany or Cartier? Why is this different to having a replica made of a smaller designer such as CVB or Victor Canera?

Would you copy a design with no qualms whatsoever? If not, do you care if someone else does?

Does it make you angry to see a replica ring? Is this because you’ve worked with a designer and feel protective over them?

Jewellery is an emotional purchase to many people. I think it’s an emotional thing for a designer too.
 
Jewelry designs, like fashion, can't be copyrighted. A vendor could get a "design patent" which would in theory give it an exclusive period of a decade and a half.

But the truth of the matter is that design elements are often borrowed between different manufacturers, and always have been. I don't see anything wrong with it, just like I don't see any problem with every vendor offering a 6 prong Tiffany setting. People who go for branded pieces are generally looking for the brand, not just the design.
 
HDer said:
Jewelry designs, like fashion, can't be copyrighted. A vendor could get a "design patent" which would in theory give it an exclusive period of a decade and a half.
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I don't believe this is the case in the US. My understanding was that as soon as a specific jewellery design is finished, if individual elements can be copyrighted, it's afforded copyright whether or not it's explicitly registered. Perhaps @MollyMalone can comment?

Almost all jewellery elements "have been done before", however we all know that a piece of jewellery is more than the sum of its parts - the 'glue' that binds those design elements together is an integral contributor to aesthetic. To clone a piece in whole, design elements and 'glue', is very different from taking inspiration from certain features and arranging them into a new work with a unique look and feel.
 
I don't have any problems with people copying ring designs for the reasons listed above. Probably the number one reason designs are copied is to get the same thing for a lower price. But the truth is that unless you go with the original designer, it is likely that your copy won't be exactly like the original anyway. You really do get what you pay for in most cases. Having a copy made is a gamble. If somebody wants to take that gamble, it's on them to be satisfied with the outcome. Some copies are successful but many are not. I understand that designers are not happy about this situation and I can understand their frustration, but I believe their best defense is to create an excellent, consistent product. Jewelry is a luxury good and there is room for multiple price points based on quality.
 
Here is some more explanation about what designs can be protected:

https://www.copyright.gov/docs/regstat072706.html

There is a difference between the copyright for a photo, and the copyright or design patent for the design of an item. Most designs are very hard to copyright because they are "utilitarian."
 
yssie said:
I don't believe this is the case in the US. My understanding was that as soon as a specific jewellery design is finished, if individual elements can be copyrighted, it's afforded copyright whether or not it's explicitly registered. Perhaps @MollyMalone can comment?

Almost all jewellery elements "have been done before", however we all know that a piece of jewellery is more than the sum of its parts - the 'glue' that binds those design elements together is an integral contributor to aesthetic. To clone a piece in whole, design elements and 'glue', is very different from taking inspiration from certain features and arranging them into a new work with a unique look and feel.
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You are correct that you don't have to register a copyright in order to have copyright rights.

However, see the article above from the copyright office as to the ability to get copyright rights for design elements. In general it's very difficult.

I would argue that this is a good thing. Copyrights terms are currently very very long, and it would be really sad if say nobody except Tiffany could make a 6 prong engagement ring.
 
I guess I liken it back to legal rulings on music. There was a famous case back in the early 90’s between David Bowie and Vanilla Ice, as the chorus to their songs were identical. Or so it seemed. The ruling came down to ONE note being different; it went up instead of down. That was enough for it to be considered a completely new piece of music.

I like to see at least one element of a “copied” piece of jewelry be different.
 
HDer said:
Here's an example of a successful (in that it was settled) lawsuit for a copyright of a design. The case was for VCA's Alhambra: https://www.iptrademarkattorney.com...di-klum-trade-dress-van-cleef-arpels-lawsuit/
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As someone who makes no secret of having a conservative perspective on this topic... That's pretty ridiculous. Different materials in a combination not offered by VCA, different shank shape, different motif/shank proportions, even different clover outline... if that's copyright infringement fields in England had best beware.
 
I have mixed feelings about this, and am always nervous to talk about it since I know people feel really strongly.

For me I think it depends on who's design it is, and how "unique" it is. I can't bring myself to feel upset that there are so many "tiffany" solitaires, because it just doesn't seem like a particularly unique design. Lovely and classic, but it would be hard to argue that Tiffany should have rights to a design like that.

When it comes to more complex or intricate designs then it gets murkier. Again, I think it depends on who the vendor is. Right or not, I have less of an issue with replicas of huge brand names (e.g. Van Cleef, Cartier, Harry Winston, etc) vs. small vendors. That might just be me, but I feel like sometimes the mark up for a brand name is just out of control. You are no longer paying for workmanship or materials, you are paying for a name, and that bothers me.

Another example of times I don't have a problem with "copying" is when it isn't a direct copy, but rather a fusion of multiple different designs. Say vendor X has 3 rings with elements that someone likes, but vendor X is out of this person's price range. I (personally) don't see an issue with that customer asking Vendor Y to create a new design using elements from the 3 rings from vendor X. Because at that point it isn't a copy, it's "inspired by elements from".

But definitely everyone has their own opinions, and I don't want to offend anyone with mine!
 
If a designer doesn’t copyright their design does it mean it can be copied? I suppose it might be difficult to copyright a jewellery design. A lot of it has been done before. Is it a challenge/expensive to copyright a design? Is that why some vendors don’t do it and hope that people will respect their ideas as original?

I've never heard of jewelry designs being copyrighted/patented. I doubt most small business, custom designers would have the time or money to do that, even if it is possible. Do people think it's okay to go to an art gallery and have someone make a copy of a living artist's work? I don't think artists copyright their work. Same thing to me.

Is it ok to copy a ring from one of the big jewellery houses such as Tiffany or Cartier? Why is this different to having a replica made of a smaller designer such as CVB or Victor Canera?

No, not okay. I will tell you that the major houses have the money to go after producers of fakes of their original current lines, and they do so. There are certain designs that are not original, though, such as diamonds by the yard pieces (bezeled diamonds on a chain have been around a long time), cluster diamond earrings like VCA Fleurette, etc.

Would you copy a design with no qualms whatsoever? If not, do you care if someone else does?

I will copy a design of an antique ring or elements of different antique rings because the designer/jeweler is no longer living and does not lose revenue from my reproducing their design. But I wouldn't copy a current designer's original design. I'd ask that designer to make my item.

There are also designs that have been made for tens or hundreds of years..halos have been around a LONG time, for example! So has a 6 prong solitaire. It may have originated with Tiffany in the late 1800's or so, but it's been replicated ever since then and now they are readily available everywhere.

Many rings have elements that come from other pieces. I just think we need to be careful not to copy a current designer's ring exactly or to the point it is easily recognizable as someone else's original design.

Does it make you angry to see a replica ring? Is this because you’ve worked with a designer and feel protective over them?

It makes me a little angry and sad. I do care about the talent, hard work, and intellectual property of the custom ringmakers I have worked with. I don't think it's right for someone to go to a vendor with a photo of some other current designer's ring and say, make one just like this for me (and I know you didn't do that, Maisie). I think I could show 4 or 5 photos and say: I like this size/style halo, I'd like a shank similar to this one, and I like the galleries of these two. Then the jeweler works up a drawing or CADS combining those different elements which comprise a different design from any of the ones pictured.
 
@wildcatz @yssie VCA "won" a settlement in that case because they've hired a bunch of trigger happy lawyers and businesses look at the cost benefit (OK, sure you might win in court, but it'll cost you 2 million in legal fees) and decide to settle. Ironically that makes their trade dress claims stronger. Since nobody else is willing to produce onyx or mother of pearl clover jewelry except for VCA and VCA replicas then the only association consumers have with that type of jewelry is VCA.
 
I have seen many posters come on the forum with a picture of a ring they like from a big box store or lesser known designers and people will tell them they should have DK make it for them for less and everyone agrees. I have also seen people come on the forum and want to have DK make a ring similar to a PS favorite vendor and get shamed. In both cases the rings were designed by an individual at some point in time. My observation is that, yes, PS'ers are being protective of people they work with and personally are connected to.
 
diamondseeker2006 said:
If a designer doesn’t copyright their design does it mean it can be copied? I suppose it might be difficult to copyright a jewellery design. A lot of it has been done before. Is it a challenge/expensive to copyright a design? Is that why some vendors don’t do it and hope that people will respect their ideas as original?

I've never heard of jewelry designs being copyrighted/patented. I doubt most small business, custom designers would have the time or money to do that, even if it is possible. Do people think it's okay to go to an art gallery and have someone make a copy of a living artist's work? I don't think artists copyright their work. Same thing to me.

Is it ok to copy a ring from one of the big jewellery houses such as Tiffany or Cartier? Why is this different to having a replica made of a smaller designer such as CVB or Victor Canera?

No, not okay. I will tell you that the major houses have the money to go after producers of fakes of their original current lines, and they do so. There are certain designs that are not original, though, such as diamonds by the yard pieces (bezeled diamonds on a chain have been around a long time), cluster diamond earrings like VCA Fleurette, etc.

Would you copy a design with no qualms whatsoever? If not, do you care if someone else does?

I will copy a design of an antique ring or elements of different antique rings because the designer/jeweler is no longer living and does not lose revenue from my reproducing their design. But I wouldn't copy a current designer's original design. I'd ask that designer to make my item.

There are also designs that have been made for tens or hundreds of years..halos have been around a LONG time, for example! So has a 6 prong solitaire. It may have originated with Tiffany in the late 1800's or so, but it's been replicated ever since then and now they are readily available everywhere.

Many rings have elements that come from other pieces. I just think we need to be careful not to copy a current designer's ring exactly or to the point it is easily recognizable as someone else's original design.

Does it make you angry to see a replica ring? Is this because you’ve worked with a designer and feel protective over them?

It makes me a little angry and sad. I do care about the talent, hard work, and intellectual property of the custom ringmakers I have worked with. I don't think it's right for someone to go to a vendor with a photo of some other current designer's ring and say, make one just like this for me (and I know you didn't do that, Maisie). I think I could show 4 or 5 photos and say: I like this size/style halo, I'd like a shank similar to this one, and I like the galleries of these two. Then the jeweler works up a drawing or CADS combining those different elements which comprise a different design from any of the ones pictured.
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Just. This. All of this.
 
Honestly this topic is tough. I will speak from my own opinions and I hope I don't offend others that may feel differently than me, or judge me buy my level of "active" involvement but here's my opinion:

I have noticed that CVB related threads may it be design, or criticism, on this board tend to become more passionate than others. There is merit in their statements about straight up copying. There's also past history re: Klass and CvB specifically so I felt that thread took a turn because it was just bringing back some of the passionate discussions that took place here in the past (yes I've read a lot of old threads).

On the other hand, there's honestly also a difficulty in communicating what you want and when it just so happens that easy images appear so that you can communicate your words in pictures. It must be hard to figure out how many of those images/elements it would be before someone says that's just copying XYZ designer. This is definitely not binary and I would have a lot of issues with someone that tries to put a threshold on the number of elements. When it's clear that there was one inspiration point from one designer and it's "unique" enough that it's not a 6-prong/4-prong/halo etc, I think that is the only time you can truly point fingers and say hay that is a copy!

I know that when I gave you back some feedback on the CAD, I was being lazy, insomniac-like, and using my phone to do the markups. In so many ways, I felt I was being unclear, so I ended up being lazy and communicating it with a lot of VC images because there's a lot of octagon examples on his ig making it all easier to do on my cellphone. FWIW I think there are enough borrowed elements to make it truly unique or give it it's own spin but my intention was not for you to copy but for you to know what I wanted to communicate.

I feel like if you want to feel more comfortable with what I said please do find examples of other images! Make it feel more unique but truth be told there are definitely elements that can be remade into something more unique and is not just a "copy" but the first step to know what you're looking for can definitely be "inspired by" a piece. I think taking this level of effort immediately makes it not a grotesque copy and who knows maybe on your search for new images you can be inspired by something completely out of the blue but flows in.
 
diamondseeker2006 said:
Is it ok to copy a ring from one of the big jewellery houses such as Tiffany or Cartier? Why is this different to having a replica made of a smaller designer such as CVB or Victor Canera?

No, not okay. I will tell you that the major houses have the money to go after producers of fakes of their original current lines, and they do so. There are certain designs that are not original, though, such as diamonds by the yard pieces (bezeled diamonds on a chain have been around a long time), cluster diamond earrings like VCA Fleurette, etc.
Click to expand...

A lot of the way big brands protect their designs is through legal extortion. They might not have the right legally to prevent other people from using their designs, but they can go to a small producer and say "we're going to sue you and cost you a ton in legal fees; are you sure you want to make that $2,000 dollars from that one customer?"

The flip side is you'll also see big brands take small producers' designs wholesale without blinking an eye. Once again, they have the money and the lawyers and the small guys don't.

Generally if you're in an industry you get to know who the extortionists are very quickly.
 
2Neezers said:
I have seen many posters come on the forum with a picture of a ring they like from a big box store or lesser known designers and people will tell them they should have DK make it for them for less and everyone agrees. I have also seen people come on the forum and want to have DK make a ring similar to a PS favorite vendor and get shamed. In both cases the rings were designed by an individual at some point in time. My observation is that, yes, PS'ers are being protective of people they work with and personally are connected to.
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I think this is to be expected. This is generally a contentious topic, and whilst PS is a community and there's usually some group-think at play... responses to questions like this will vary hugely depending on exactly who is doing the responding. I think you'd find that the same people "object to it" and the same people are "okay with it" in all threads like these... but the majority sentiment in any particular thread will depend on how many "object to it"ers vs "okay with it"ers happen to see and respond. That majority sentiment doesn't reflect the opinions of all PSers.

For me personally - opinions from people like @diamondseeker2006 - people who've been 'round the block, who've had years to contemplate issues like this, talk to vendors, interact with consumers, and form and validate their interpretations of ideology and practicality... are and should be commensurately meaningful.
 
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2Neezers said:
I have seen many posters come on the forum with a picture of a ring they like from a big box store or lesser known designers and people will tell them they should have DK make it for them for less and everyone agrees. I have also seen people come on the forum and want to have DK make a ring similar to a PS favorite vendor and get shamed. In both cases the rings were designed by an individual at some point in time. My observation is that, yes, PS'ers are being protective of people they work with and personally are connected to.
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Agree.
 
HDer said:
The flip side is you'll also see big brands take small producers' designs wholesale without blinking an eye. Once again, they have the money and the lawyers and the small guys don't.
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I've not heard of an example of this... none is coming to mind, anyway. Can you point me to one?
 
 
While it's getting easier in the internet age to "name and shame," the ones that make it into the press are probably just the tip of the iceberg. A lot of producers don't want to make a big deal because of business relationships and such.
 
2Neezers said:
I have seen many posters come on the forum with a picture of a ring they like from a big box store or lesser known designers and people will tell them they should have DK make it for them for less and everyone agrees. I have also seen people come on the forum and want to have DK make a ring similar to a PS favorite vendor and get shamed. In both cases the rings were designed by an individual at some point in time. My observation is that, yes, PS'ers are being protective of people they work with and personally are connected to.
Click to expand...

Often these big box designs are things like simple pave halos with diamond shank, and those just aren't original. So sure, if someone can't afford a pave master, then by all means, there are jewelers who can make a very nice quality ring for less money than the pave master but better quality than the big box ring. Very few big box store rings are original designs (and if they are, many are not worth copying).
 
An aside...
@Maisie - I wasn't aware of the context for this question so I went through your recent threads - the impetus is easy to find. @the_mother_thing was spot on when she iterated that your intentions were - are - quite clearly to take inspiration and avoid creating a replica, and that is both acknowledged and appreciated by your fellow consumers!! ::) You're a class act. But we already knew that.
 
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diamondseeker2006 said:
Often these big box designs are things like simple pave halos with diamond shank, and those just aren't original. So sure, if someone can't afford a pave master, then by all means, there are jewelers who can make a very nice quality ring for less money than the pave master but better quality than the big box ring. Very few big box store rings are original designs (and if they are, many are not worth copying).
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Hi @diamondseeker2006 =)2. I have seen posters suggest DK replicate other high end or lesser known vendors in the past also. I don't have a strong opinion on the subject either way, but the question was asked and I was just giving my observation of what I have seen as mostly a lurker/observer. Being protective of a vendor that has become a friend is what a true friend would do.
I do think though that people should live within their means and be resourceful to find a way to afford the things they desire. Many people simple can't afford or don't want to spend the money on designer prices and quality, so they compromise and find another way to have what their hearts desire, understanding that a copy is not a replacement for an original.
 
There is one thing I'll add in relation to what @2Neezers (:wavey:) just posted. While I have already posted my feelings on copying original designs, if someone is absolutely intent on making a copy of someone else's original design, they should be smart enough not to post it on the jewelry forum where the original designs were posted or where people would know the original design!!! In the case of copying a high end brand original design, never post online at all.
 
I was talking with Vatche at the Vatche booth several years ago at the JCK show. He had just come out with some very nice designs, including the Swan and two or three other very nice and unique designs.

Suddenly he stiffened and looked daggers at another vendor who was blatantly taking photos of his banners with the new designs on them.

The guy turned around and left fairly quickly. Vatche turned to me and told me that the guy was a huge design thief and he would see versions of his new designs on this guy's site within a few weeks.

It is an unpleasant part of the life and it is hard to even slow it down.

Wink
 
 
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