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Copying, and ... copying

Circe

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This is not meant to be a sh!t-stirring post. It might verge into that territory if people start drawing Really! Particular! Examples! but I'm hoping nobody will. It's just a philosophical thing that's been on my mind.

Once in a while, I'll come across a piece of jewelry that is really obviously inspired by something I've seen elsewhere. Sometimes it's Faberge; sometimes it's a PS'r.

99.9% of the time, it doesn't bug me even a little bit. There's nothing new under the sun, etc. But that .01%, it bugs me a lot, because it seems like plagiarism. And even then ... while I loath copyright infringement, and kinda feel like if you want the thing, save for THE THING and don't copy it, but I ... cut more slack to well-done copies, if that makes any sense? And/or to copies done of the work of major firms, as opposed to individuals?

I feel like a poorly done copy is almost like the inverse of imitation being the sincerest form of flattery. It feels like some obscure insult, and it gets more ... personal ... when it's an artist and not a brand.

Just me? Would love to hear your thoughts, in and on this age of mechanical reproduction.
 

SB621

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ehhhhhhhh perhaps I'm not the best person to answer this as I have pretty much copied 2 rings I found on PS that I really loved. Well actually 1 was suggested to me and the other 1 was my choice, but I did check with the PSer first for permission.

I'm guessing you mean like copies of specific pieces like the Tiffany Legacy ring? Stuff like that I don't mind as I think you are paying for their marketing and blue box vs. quality. So if you can get a similar ring someplace cheaper I'm all for custom made as long as it does well. I sort of shrink a little when it is a bad reproduction because I feel bad for the person who got it.
 

Circe

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See, now, that's respectful. That, I have NO problem with. It's the equivalent of getting permission from a copyright holder.

And, no, the Legacy is on the opposite end - like you, I feel bad for the people who get the bad copies, but it's no skin off Tiff's nose. It's the BAD copies of UNIQUE designs that seem to get my back up, every time. It may just be my weird neurosis.
 

Laila619

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JMO--there are really no truly unique rings out there. Almost every ring has elements of other rings and/or is a replica of an existing ring. So copying really doesn't phase me. Some people simply can't afford the original, so they choose to copy and spend less money.
 
D

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No, I understand what you are saying. Getting a Vatche opposed to a Tiffany solitaire is ok with me. Getting a legacy inspired setting instead of paying the markup of Tiffany is fine. It's only when someone's creativity and individuality is stolen. Say someone creates a ring from scratch with designs elements that they researched and thought about, only to have someone else steal the same design without asking...

Even Enerchi's FLY, it's a simple trellis ring but I wanted to ask her first and make sure that she was ok with it.
 

ZahraLeyla

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My engagement ring was copied, but it doesn't bother me at all because, in my opinion, I have the far superior product. However, I know that my jeweller was particularly frustrated by the incident, because the design is incredibly unique and the execution was incredibly challenging and he put a lot of work into getting those things as perfect as they could be. I think you're right - most vendors would not hesitate to add a Harry Winston-esque halo ring to their setting offering, but they would all be furious if their one-off, custom designs were replicated across the industry (with variable quality).
 

yssie

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Ohhhh this is a can of worms Circe! ::)


It's something I feel VERY strongly about - and have taken hits here on PS for. I have no problem at all with "inspired-by" designs - pretty much everything is inspired by in some way! I have no respect at all for a vendor who will agree to clone another vendor's design and execution without adding any of his/her own signature style.

When Sarah contacted me to ask if I'd mind her doing an inspired-by with OECs I was flattered and thought it very sweet of her to have reached out. When I saw the result I was thrilled for her - SK did a beautiful job adapting the design to flatter her stones!

Conversely, when I saw my fivestone cloned (rather, a clone was attempted) I was thoroughly unimpressed. Dreamer pointed it out to me and received a page long rant in reply. The vendor mauled it, frankly, just as he mauled Zahra's RDG and Haven's custom design by Burdeen's... I won't be posting my piece by RDG on PS, in part because I find the idea of running into Klass' "interpretation" one day... vaguely nauseating.


Excuse the blunt response.


ETA: it's not designs themselves that I'm protective of so much as feeling strongly that they belong to the jewellers who bring them to life...
 

Circe

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No excuses necessary, I think that gets to the heart of it.

What you and Zahara are describing is exactly the sort of thing I had in mind. Like, no big deal to copy claw prongs from any of the vendors who use them - they've been around for ages, and I doubt any other jeweler could precisely imitate the little details that win them loyal fans. But something like the level of ingenuity in Zahara's ring, or Haven's, or yours? Yeeesh. That makes me actively uncomfortable, both as a collector and a low-grade hobbyist.

I would haaaaaate to spend as much time as these artists have, only to turn around and find a cheap knock-off.
 

ForteKitty

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Yssie|1361935711|3391444 said:
Ohhhh this is a can of worms Circe! ::)

Conversely, when I saw my fivestone cloned (rather, a clone was attempted) I was thoroughly unimpressed. Dreamer pointed it out to me and received a page long rant in reply. The vendor mauled it, frankly, just as he mauled Zahra's RDG and Haven's custom design by Burdeen's... I won't be posting my piece by RDG on PS, in part because I find the idea of running into Klass' "interpretation" one day... vaguely nauseating.


Excuse the blunt response.

.

Awww, I'm so bummed. :(
 

SB621

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Circe|1361933626|3391413 said:
See, now, that's respectful. That, I have NO problem with. It's the equivalent of getting permission from a copyright holder.

And, no, the Legacy is on the opposite end - like you, I feel bad for the people who get the bad copies, but it's no skin off Tiff's nose. It's the BAD copies of UNIQUE designs that seem to get my back up, every time. It may just be my weird neurosis.


Ok now I understand what you mean! And yes I would agree that would infuritate me quite a bit.

I guess I must have missed it when rings were posted as copies of Havens and Z's ring! That is nuts. Most of my projects are pretty straight forward, classic art deco so nothing that stands out. However, if I did have something special like their settings I would be so upset. Especially Z as I believe that was her ering.
 

ericad

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Our designs have been copied to varying degrees. We're flattered when someone incorporates a component from one of our designs and uses it to create something new - an inspired-by piece. In fact, many components of our designs have been inspired by vintage pieces we've come across, then combined with other creative elements to make them our own. But we've also had some of our settings copied in their entirety, down to every last detail, and that does irk us.

We've copyrighted our designs, for whatever that's worth (we understand the limitations of enforceability, it just felt really good to do it for ourselves), and the specific jeweler in question has been asked to stop, though I'm pretty confident he'd happily knock off our design again if asked to - he ignored our communications entirely.

It comes down to professional courtesy and how one wants to run their business - with integrity or totally without class. :)
 

yssie

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Ack, sorry Circe!! I just reread your original post and I don't know how I completely missed the part about avoiding specific examples :errrr: Hopefully my post doesn't take this thread down the rabbit hole because I do think it's an important and interesting issue!


Circe|1361932776|3391405 said:
I feel like a poorly done copy is almost like the inverse of imitation being the sincerest form of flattery. It feels like some obscure insult, and it gets more ... personal ... when it's an artist and not a brand.
Just... ditto. An inspired-by by a talented jeweller that does the design justice is incredibly flattering. A poorly made clone... I can't envision running into the talented jeweller creating a clone scenario because I'd think they'd all prefer to leave their signatures on their pieces!


FK - your Honker and I have a hot date in Vegas, didn't he tell you? :naughty:
 

pregcurious

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I think copying down to the detail is kind of sad. It means one doesn't have their own taste, doesn't it?
 

ForteKitty

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Ahem, my honker is a lady! Okay, fine, she might have a drink or two with you, but that's IT! :bigsmile: Will you have your RDG piece by then? So excited!!
 
D

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ForteKitty said:
Ahem, my honker is a lady! Okay, fine, she might have a drink or two with you, but that's IT! :bigsmile: Will you have your RDG piece by then? So excited!!
Ooh ooh! Can I join?! I always love a good threesome or orgy!
 

ZahraLeyla

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Sarahbear621|1361937492|3391469 said:
Circe|1361933626|3391413 said:
See, now, that's respectful. That, I have NO problem with. It's the equivalent of getting permission from a copyright holder.

And, no, the Legacy is on the opposite end - like you, I feel bad for the people who get the bad copies, but it's no skin off Tiff's nose. It's the BAD copies of UNIQUE designs that seem to get my back up, every time. It may just be my weird neurosis.


Ok now I understand what you mean! And yes I would agree that would infuritate me quite a bit.

I guess I must have missed it when rings were posted as copies of Havens and Z's ring! That is nuts. Most of my projects are pretty straight forward, classic art deco so nothing that stands out. However, if I did have something special like their settings I would be so upset. Especially Z as I believe that was her ering.

They copy of my ring wasn't posted here - it was posted on a diamond simulant forum. Like I said, I'm not personally bothered by the copy, because the quality of it is such that it doesn't even come close to diminishing the value of my ring. I felt really bad for my jeweller though, because he put so much time and effort into making my ering, only to have an unscrupulous vendor make a mockery of it by attempting to recreate it without the necessary skill to do it justice.
 

monarch64

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I have a simple stock setting that my lovely husband chose because he and the jeweler he used thought it best complemented the diamond. That said, if we ever designed a new setting, I probably would not post it on PS, or anywhere online. I like to be different, and take a fair amount of pride in it in some ways, jewelry design being one. Simple personal preference, nothing more. I don't think any less or any more of anyone who feels differently. Interesting thread.
 

amc80

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My ring is sort of copied. The original rings are JB Star. I liked certain elements from three or so rings and put then together to create my own version. So maybe that's more of an inspiration than a copy?
 

Laila619

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Yssie|1361935711|3391444 said:
Ohhhh this is a can of worms Circe! ::)


It's something I feel VERY strongly about - and have taken hits here on PS for. I have no problem at all with "inspired-by" designs - pretty much everything is inspired by in some way! I have no respect at all for a vendor who will agree to clone another vendor's design and execution without adding any of his/her own signature style.

When Sarah contacted me to ask if I'd mind her doing an inspired-by with OECs I was flattered and thought it very sweet of her to have reached out. When I saw the result I was thrilled for her - SK did a beautiful job adapting the design to flatter her stones!

Conversely, when I saw my fivestone cloned (rather, a clone was attempted) I was thoroughly unimpressed. Dreamer pointed it out to me and received a page long rant in reply. The vendor mauled it, frankly, just as he mauled Zahra's RDG and Haven's custom design by Burdeen's... I won't be posting my piece by RDG on PS, in part because I find the idea of running into Klass' "interpretation" one day... vaguely nauseating.

Yssie, you know I like you and I completely understand your POV, but those ladies lurk here and I think they'd be sad to hear someone saying about their engagement rings that they're "mauled." I'm sure they don't think they are, and in fact they probably love them. I think the reason they go to the vendor in question and not the original vendors is because he is just much more affordable. I can't fault them for that. Not everyone has the budget for a $$$ setting. What do you do in that instance if you want a beautiful design but you can't afford the original vendor's price?
 
D

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So at first, I was like eh... its alright... I wasn't really irate about the issue but the more I am thinking about it and reading about certain people's rings that were copied that will not be mentioned... ahem... I'm angry! :angryfire:

Not stirring the pot.... :devil:
 

cygnet

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I don't like outright copying of unique works of art. I try to respect intellectual property and I think it's really crummy when people take a designer's work and blatantly steal it and sell it as their own. I don't have a problem with Vatche and classic Tiffany style repros, as that style is so simple and ubiquitous already... but that might make me sound like kind of a hypocrite. There's a line somewhere, but I don't know exactly where it is.

That being said, there's this Elie Saab wedding gown I've fallen in love with and can't afford (this seems to be a common problem among women who adore Elie Saab). When the time comes, I'm considering having a similar gown custom made using his design as an inspiration, but I don't want to copy it outright. Girls who can't afford Elie Saab don't get to wear Elie Saab on their wedding day. Buuuut I think it would probably be okay for me to use the general style of his work as a template for the way I'd like my dress to look.
 

gregchang35

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YT said:
ForteKitty said:
Ahem, my honker is a lady! Okay, fine, she might have a drink or two with you, but that's IT! :bigsmile: Will you have your RDG piece by then? So excited!!
Ooh ooh! Can I join?! I always love a good threesome or orgy!

I will join from afar!!!! A mind thing- you know??? like it has to be eye clean and surrounded by beauties in various shades of gold. :cheeky: :cheeky:
 

cygnet

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Why does YT never invite me to her sex parties?! :confused:
 

gregchang35

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cygnet|1361947229|3391589 said:
Why does YT never invite me to her sex parties?! :confused:

I don't think you need the invite, just go and join in!!!

I wonder what happens to the bling.... does the biology work the same? I am no "reproductionist", but when opposites sexes get together (unless you are a seahorse- the only animal that i think is asexual) and they are doing their THANG without any precautions, they multiply. So, if you have a male and a female bling having the time of their lives- could they multiply as well????


The mind boggles...... well mind does.... :tongue: :tongue:

Sorry for the thread jack... that is the last comment i will make to the reference above. promise.
 

ZahraLeyla

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Laila619|1361944213|3391561 said:
Yssie|1361935711|3391444 said:
Ohhhh this is a can of worms Circe! ::)


It's something I feel VERY strongly about - and have taken hits here on PS for. I have no problem at all with "inspired-by" designs - pretty much everything is inspired by in some way! I have no respect at all for a vendor who will agree to clone another vendor's design and execution without adding any of his/her own signature style.

When Sarah contacted me to ask if I'd mind her doing an inspired-by with OECs I was flattered and thought it very sweet of her to have reached out. When I saw the result I was thrilled for her - SK did a beautiful job adapting the design to flatter her stones!

Conversely, when I saw my fivestone cloned (rather, a clone was attempted) I was thoroughly unimpressed. Dreamer pointed it out to me and received a page long rant in reply. The vendor mauled it, frankly, just as he mauled Zahra's RDG and Haven's custom design by Burdeen's... I won't be posting my piece by RDG on PS, in part because I find the idea of running into Klass' "interpretation" one day... vaguely nauseating.

Yssie, you know I like you and I completely understand your POV, but those ladies lurk here and I think they'd be sad to hear someone saying about their engagement rings that they're "mauled." I'm sure they don't think they are, and in fact they probably love them. I think the reason they go to the vendor in question and not the original vendors is because he is just much more affordable. I can't fault them for that. Not everyone has the budget for a $$$ setting. What do you do in that instance if you want a beautiful design but you can't afford the original vendor's price?

I believe that the lady who bought the copy of my ring doesn't wear it as an engagement ring (or at least that was the impression I got from reading her posts on the other forum).

As for wanting a beautiful design without the price tag - that's the difficult bit. The successful projects seem to be the ones where the client doesn't want an exact replica, but rather wants to use the original piece as inspiration and adapt it to their budget and the skill set of their vendor. The unsuccessful projects, in my view, are the ones where the client has insisted on a facsimile of the original without regard to the impact that a reduced budget and different quality will have on the outcome. I think those situations are the ones that frustrate the original artists the most, because they effectively trash the ingenuity and effort behind the original designs.
 

rosetta

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ForteKitty|1361936593|3391459 said:
Yssie|1361935711|3391444 said:
Ohhhh this is a can of worms Circe! ::)

Conversely, when I saw my fivestone cloned (rather, a clone was attempted) I was thoroughly unimpressed. Dreamer pointed it out to me and received a page long rant in reply. The vendor mauled it, frankly, just as he mauled Zahra's RDG and Haven's custom design by Burdeen's... I won't be posting my piece by RDG on PS, in part because I find the idea of running into Klass' "interpretation" one day... vaguely nauseating.


Excuse the blunt response.

.

Awww, I'm so bummed. :(

No, while we would love to see it, posting on PS will guarantee someone will copy it, whether you know it or not. I think it's a good idea not to post it, if you want it kept unique and uncopied. Once it's on the internet, it's fair game for all.

I personally don't mind whether anyone copies 99% of my stuff or not, it's all been done before.

I do have some unique designs that I would love to share on PS but I don't want them copied so away they stay....
 

Kismet

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I wouldn't be upset if someone went to the jeweler who made the piece and said 'make me one just like Kismet's.' And I wouldn't be personally upset if they went to a different jeweler and said 'make me one just like Kismet's but less expensive because she doesn't know how to bargain shop,' or even 'make me one just like Kismet's and money is no object.' I would be peeved on my jeweler's behalf though since it was his imagination and skill that brought the piece to life and it's cheap for one jeweler to steal a design from another.
 

princesss

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Circe|1361936267|3391453 said:
No excuses necessary, I think that gets to the heart of it.

What you and Zahara are describing is exactly the sort of thing I had in mind. Like, no big deal to copy claw prongs from any of the vendors who use them - they've been around for ages, and I doubt any other jeweler could precisely imitate the little details that win them loyal fans. But something like the level of ingenuity in Zahara's ring, or Haven's, or yours? Yeeesh. That makes me actively uncomfortable, both as a collector and a low-grade hobbyist.

I would haaaaaate to spend as much time as these artists have, only to turn around and find a cheap knock-off.

I've felt this exact way - there is a ring I've seen pictures of that is a cheap, bulky knock off of a beautiful, fluid setting that I adore and just thinking about it makes me mad. A craftsman came up with the design, figured out how to execute it beautifully, and then somebody comes along, mangles it, and the artist's design is not only WRECKED visually, but the person goes around saying "It's just like x artist's design," and now his name is dragged into this terrible copy! It's not my battle, but it irks me well beyond reason.
 

iheartscience

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Yeah, I know exactly what you mean. But seriously, the copies don't even come close to the original, so it's hard for me to get too insulted on behalf of the jewelers. Plus I also see Laila's point. I feel for people who want a certain setting but can't afford the original. I guess I'm in the grey on this one, which is strange, because usually I'm more black and white!
 

marymm

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thing2of2|1361977700|3391736 said:
Yeah, I know exactly what you mean. But seriously, the copies don't even come close to the original, so it's hard for me to get too insulted on behalf of the jewelers. Plus I also see Laila's point. I feel for people who want a certain setting but can't afford the original. I guess I'm in the grey on this one, which is strange, because usually I'm more black and white!

In the abstract, I guess I just don't care... rampant copying has always been part and parcel of the creative/design world and, although I do not condone it, I do expect it.

In the personal, poor workmanship irks me no matter if it is an original or a copy.
 
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