Vendor policy at Singlestone YAY or NAY?

[audball]

Odd. I inquired about one of their designs and Heather sent me profile pics, no deposit. This was within the last 6 weeks.

Huh. That is odd. This is a verbatim quote from Heather when I asked to see the profile of a ring.

"I am sorry, we do not send out profile images of our pieces until we are in the designing process and a deposit has been made. We take great pride in our unique designs and do not display multiple images of our pieces to prevent copies of our rings. This is an ongoing issue we have with some jewelers and this is the only way we can protect ourselves. Our clients are very appreciative knowing that their piece will not be re created by anyone other than us. We appreciate your understanding."

I hadn't asked for a zillion quotes or pictures. I asked for one ring, BC716-1, for a quote in 18kt white gold and to see the profile. She did respond quickly with the price but the above was her response to the profile picture.

My response: "I absolutely understand protecting your designs. Can you tell me what happens if we put down a deposit on a ring, get to see it in it's entirety, and then don't like the profile, for example. Could our deposit be moved to a different design? What do you recommend? I do understand the reasoning, but the profile of the ring is more/less the most important element to me. "

Heather's response: "Once you have placed a deposit, it can be used for anything you decide on. Including going with a custom design. Our goal is to make sure that you have the perfect ring and have no desire to have you feel that you are stuck with anything less than perfect. Please let me know if that answers your concern."

Which I read to mean exactly as Gypsy and others have interpreted, pay a deposit and we'll share more/work with you, but you're locked into working with us. Don't pay, we'll give you quotes on pieces and you can see the photos that the website shows. I wasn't okay with putting money down without seeing/knowing what we were getting.

We ended up working with Pearlmans who, with no deposit, shared plenty of photos and even mailed us a sample to see in person before committing to anything.

ETA: Others have clearly had better luck with them, she must not have liked me for one reason or another. Doesn't matter, in the end we went with someone else.

 

[MsP]

I find it somewhat bothersome that a vendor picks and chooses when to enforce policies and when not to... obviously they can do so but it kind of rubs me the wrong way.

I'm conflicted though... because I can imagine there ARE customers out there who as for a gazillion photos/quotes and never buy anything.

 

[Gypsy]

The fact that they blur the profile out of their photos, TO ME, tells me this is the policy... but that they make exceptions to the rule at their discretion.

One question:
Audball, did you say you were from PS?

Yenny and Milton-- did you?

 

[audball]

The fact that they blur the profile out of their photos, TO ME, tells me this is the policy... but that they make exceptions to the rule at their discretion.

One question:
Audball, did you say you were from PS?

Yenny and Milton-- did you?

I did.

"I was referred to Singlestone from Pricescope. I found setting style BC716-1 on your website and I wanted to get a quote for the cost of this setting done in 18kt gold. My center stone is an OEC, ~.80ct.

I'm also interested to see, if you have them, photos of this setting from other views, particularly the profile of the ring."

That's what I wrote with salutations and signatures removed. My stone is significantly smaller than yenny's, I don't know about milton's. Maybe my job was just too small for them to care?

 

[yennyfire]

Yes, they knew I was from PS. And based on my experience with a couple of other PS vendors, they all seem to apply their policies a bit more stringently when they choose to, which is their right, even I'd it can be a bit off-putting.

 

[Karl_K]

I am confused as to what the exact policy is, as others most likely are, can someone email him who has his address and ask him to post here about it?
I think it is fair to offer him a chance to comment.

 

[Gypsy]

I am confused as to what the exact policy is, as others most likely are, can someone email him who has his address and ask him to post here about it?
I think it is fair to offer him a chance to comment.

I already sent it to Single Stone on FB, Karl.

 

[Karl_K]

I am confused as to what the exact policy is, as others most likely are, can someone email him who has his address and ask him to post here about it?
I think it is fair to offer him a chance to comment.

I already sent it to Single Stone on FB, Karl.

Thanks.

 

[Laila619]

The fact that they blur the profile out of their photos, TO ME, tells me this is the policy... but that they make exceptions to the rule at their discretion.

One question:
Audball, did you say you were from PS?

Yenny and Milton-- did you?

I did.

"I was referred to Singlestone from Pricescope. I found setting style BC716-1 on your website and I wanted to get a quote for the cost of this setting done in 18kt gold. My center stone is an OEC, ~.80ct.

I'm also interested to see, if you have them, photos of this setting from other views, particularly the profile of the ring."

That's what I wrote with salutations and signatures removed. My stone is significantly smaller than yenny's, I don't know about milton's. Maybe my job was just too small for them to care?

Yeah, I honestly do think some vendors discriminate based on stone size. Horrible but true. A .80 is a perfectly good, nice size! But maybe they assume unless the person has a 3 + carat honker, they aren't a serious customer who wants to spend money? Too bad for them, because they're losing customers.

 

[milton333]

I did not ID myself as a Pricescoper. I was specified I would be setting a 6.85mm stone, so not a honker. I did mention that I live in the Midwest, so no opportunity to visit. I asked for more info on the setting, was provided 4 pics, including profile, with no big deal. Kind of tempted to post the profile pic...?

At any rate, I had inquired with other potential vendors about a custom setting that was similar to both the SS one and an inexpensive Art Deco repro that I currently wear, and without specifying the profile design (IMO, the SS profile was a bit busier than necessary), one trusted PS vendor initially responded with a plan to work up a quote but then dropped off the face of the earth and never responded to follow-ups, one was priced higher than SS (and more risk since I had no proof of their ability to achieve the design, while slight mods to the SS setting would have been perfect), and one came back suspiciously low. When I do reset the upgrade I'm presently planning, I'll likely go with SS.

 

[audball]

Yeah, I honestly do think some vendors discriminate based on stone size. Horrible but true. A .80 is a perfectly good, nice size! But maybe they assume unless the person has a 3 + carat honker, they aren't a serious customer who wants to spend money? Too bad for them, because they're losing customers.

I guess this is what happened. My stone cost less than their settings so I guess they wouldn't think we'd actually buy? And even if we decided we couldn't afford it now, um, we are PSers, I will get another stone at some point in the future that's likely to be larger. Way to leave a bad taste in my mouth.

 

[distracts]

Yeah, I honestly do think some vendors discriminate based on stone size. Horrible but true. A .80 is a perfectly good, nice size! But maybe they assume unless the person has a 3 + carat honker, they aren't a serious customer who wants to spend money? Too bad for them, because they're losing customers.

I guess this is what happened. My stone cost less than their settings so I guess they wouldn't think we'd actually buy? And even if we decided we couldn't afford it now, um, we are PSers, I will get another stone at some point in the future that's likely to be larger. Way to leave a bad taste in my mouth.

Ugh yeah. Glad I decided against Singlestone for my mom's ring... her stone is only a quarter of a carat! But it was her mother's e-ring diamond so it's very important to her, and she's able to spend however much to get the setting she wants.

 

[TravelingGal]

Yeah, I honestly do think some vendors discriminate based on stone size. Horrible but true. A .80 is a perfectly good, nice size! But maybe they assume unless the person has a 3 + carat honker, they aren't a serious customer who wants to spend money? Too bad for them, because they're losing customers.

I guess this is what happened. My stone cost less than their settings so I guess they wouldn't think we'd actually buy? And even if we decided we couldn't afford it now, um, we are PSers, I will get another stone at some point in the future that's likely to be larger. Way to leave a bad taste in my mouth.

Ugh yeah. Glad I decided against Singlestone for my mom's ring... her stone is only a quarter of a carat! But it was her mother's e-ring diamond so it's very important to her, and she's able to spend however much to get the setting she wants.

I think everyone is jumping the gun a bit here. It would still cost a pretty penny to set a small stone vs a big one, so they'd still be making plenty of change. My 3 stone project had only a one carat center, and Ari and crew were certainly keen to get the business.

Not sure if people know that Singlestone is a small operation. People usually talk to Ari, Patti, or Heather. There are a few more people on staff, but that's it. They deal with street traffic, internet traffic and beyond. Maybe it seems sort of arbitrary, but that's their business...just as it is our business if we choose not to spend money with a vendor for whatever reason.

 

[yssie]

Yeah, I honestly do think some vendors discriminate based on stone size. Horrible but true. A .80 is a perfectly good, nice size! But maybe they assume unless the person has a 3 + carat honker, they aren't a serious customer who wants to spend money? Too bad for them, because they're losing customers.

I guess this is what happened. My stone cost less than their settings so I guess they wouldn't think we'd actually buy? And even if we decided we couldn't afford it now, um, we are PSers, I will get another stone at some point in the future that's likely to be larger. Way to leave a bad taste in my mouth.

I dunno, I find this really hard to believe. I do think it's common for vendors of luxury goods to selectively enforce their policies (some of their policies) but really I don't think stone size is the deciding factor -

A) Audball indicated that her stone was 6.85mm. That indicates a level of seriousness right there - few random lookie-loos would know something like that and even fewer would recognise that the dimensions matter more than the carat weight when discussing settings...

B) She wanted a picture of a specific setting, which says that she's already done her homework and narrowed it down to one specific look and feel.


On the other hand -

1. The policy is designed to discourage new long-distance customers. If they have enough local business they probably don't mind losing the long-distance folk!

2. There is another jeweller in the same building who has tried to clone any number of custom designs/other vendors' original pieces for internet clients. Zahra's (Mike R's), Haven's (Burdeen's), mine (VC/DBL), JbEG's signature designs... I'm surprised this character isn't buried in copyright infringement suits, and I can understand SS' hesitation to send RandomInternetInquirer#38 closeups of the details of their pieces - they have no way to know whether RandomInternetInquirer#38 plans to take that info upstairs to the copymachine.

3. We PSers can be PITAs to work with! Some moreso than others, granted, but long-distance custom work is already difficult - add nitpicky micromanaging to it and I can imagine that a bench that appreciates TGal's more laid-back approach wouldn't really want to work with someone like me

4. I'm guessing SS' marketing dept probably discourages reps from highlighting issues they may have with other jewellers' ethics or calling people PITAs on a public forum, so other than a flowery ode to protection of intellectual property I'm not sure what anyone would actually say


Aaaaand to answer the actual question: nay, I might be able to guess at some of the reasons for the policy but there's NO way I'm signing up to work within it!! I need a jeweller who doesn't mind sharing (with me, if not anyone else) everything about what goes into designing and making my piece from the get-go.

 

[TravelingGal]

Yssie, did I miss something? How'd PSers find out that rings are being copied? Not that copying is an issue per se, but it seems from what you say that one vendor has been copying quite a few unique styles?

 

[Laila619]

Yeah, I honestly do think some vendors discriminate based on stone size. Horrible but true. A .80 is a perfectly good, nice size! But maybe they assume unless the person has a 3 + carat honker, they aren't a serious customer who wants to spend money? Too bad for them, because they're losing customers.

I guess this is what happened. My stone cost less than their settings so I guess they wouldn't think we'd actually buy? And even if we decided we couldn't afford it now, um, we are PSers, I will get another stone at some point in the future that's likely to be larger. Way to leave a bad taste in my mouth.

I dunno, I find this really hard to believe. I do think it's common for vendors of luxury goods to selectively enforce their policies (some of their policies) but really I don't think stone size is the deciding factor -

A) Audball indicated that her stone was 6.85mm. That indicates a level of seriousness right there - few random lookie-loos would know something like that and even fewer would recognise that the dimensions matter more than the carat weight when discussing settings...

Yssie, that was milton33.

 

[Laila619]

Yssie, did I miss something? How'd PSers find out that rings are being copied? Not that copying is an issue per se, but it seems from what you say that one vendor has been copying quite a few unique styles?

These rings are on Another Forum.

As far as 'copying,' I was under the impression that if one changes the design even just a bit, it's no longer considered a copy. For instance, plenty of PS vendors will copy Ritani or Tacori designs at a customer's request, but they don't do exact copies so it's considered okay.

 

[audball]

I dunno, I find this really hard to believe. I do think it's common for vendors of luxury goods to selectively enforce their policies (some of their policies) but really I don't think stone size is the deciding factor -

A) Audball indicated that her stone was 6.85mm. That indicates a level of seriousness right there - few random lookie-loos would know something like that and even fewer would recognise that the dimensions matter more than the carat weight when discussing settings...

Yssie, that was milton33.

Yes, my stone was estimated at the time of the email at ~.80ct (it's actually .788ct after the minor recut to help with the girdle). But I didn't list measurements (mine is 5.8mm round). Milton's was the 6.85mm.

 

[ForteKitty]

Singlestone carries plenty of rings with center stones under 1ct. I highly doubt they would discriminate based on diamond size because their profit margin will likely be the same regardless of size of the center stone.

 

[milton333]

My thoughts on the diamond size issue:

My original e-ring was a 1/2 carat. I originally just wanted to reset it into a setting that gave it more "presence." At the time, it was unthinkable to me to get rid of my original e-ring stone (ultimately, I did keep it and it's now set in a pendant). But I found that basically all designer vendors poo-poo'd the thought of setting a 1/2 carat stone, and even commercial-designer types (like Verragio) were restricted to 3/4 ct and above. This was 5+ years ago, and while halos were around, they were mostly all custom or semi-custom (i.e., not something you could pick up at Jared's). The prospect of spending $2,000-3,000 to set a $2,500 stone just didn't seem to make sense to any vendor I talked to.

And, ultimately, discouraged by the options and doing the math myself, I realized I could get a .82 ACA stone for $3k, so that made more financial sense to me. That's kind of what's happened now - I really want my "dream setting," but was hoping for a quote that came back with a number starting with "3," and got a number starting with "4." Given that, I figure I might as well upgrade the size now to the largest I'm personally comfortable with, and revisit the setting in the future, maybe for our 20th anniversary (this year is 15).

I'd bet that thinking you're not serious would be the calculus with why, say, Victor Canera might not return your phone calls if you want to set a .8 stone. But I'm not sure diamond size is the issue with SS, since true antiques are generally sub-1 ct and they're making repros, and they seem to be plugged into a market for "restoring" antique or family stones to an era-appropriate setting. Their model is geared toward people who appreciate antique styles, which typically featured small stones.

So, it's a head-scratcher. I obviously would not commit to a 50% deposit just to see the side profile. But if I loved the ring otherwise, and had design-say to CHANGE the profile if I didn't like it, then maybe it's not a biggie? For me, I loved the ring I saw in nearly every respect, but thought the profile could have a bit less going on, and expected that I'd be able to modify that in the design process, just as I proposed to make small changes to the design of the face-up of the ring.

 

[yssie]

Yes, my stone was estimated at the time of the email at ~.80ct (it's actually .788ct after the minor recut to help with the girdle). But I didn't list measurements (mine is 5.8mm round). Milton's was the 6.85mm.

My mistake Laila, audball, and milton!

Yssie, did I miss something? How'd PSers find out that rings are being copied? Not that copying is an issue per se, but it seems from what you say that one vendor has been copying quite a few unique styles?

TGal - you didn't miss anything here, the copying business wasn't on PS - it was on another forum that I don't frequent. Ironic that this vendor's last name is a homonym for something I (well, obviously) feel his business practices sorely lack.

As far as 'copying,' I was under the impression that if one changes the design even just a bit, it's no longer considered a copy. For instance, plenty of PS vendors will copy Ritani or Tacori designs at a customer's request, but they don't do exact copies so it's considered okay.

They will "copy" to a point - I asked WF about an earring design that was too similar to one of Vatche's solitaires and they declined, stating that they'd have to go through Vatche, so we changed the design.

I'm definitely not an expert in copyright law or anything - I am, however, *very* protective of my chosen vendors and their designs, and of my designs with them. If DBL or VC wants to re-make my ring for someone else they're welcome to it... if someone wants to have a different vendor make an inspired-by they're welcome to it... it's going to a different vendor for an obvious knock-off that gets my goat.

In the current context whether or not "copying" is legal by the letter of the law it's clearly something SS doesn't appreciate and wants to protect against.

 

[ericad]

TGal - you didn't miss anything here, the copying business wasn't on PS - it was on another forum that I don't frequent. Ironic that this vendor's last name is a homonym for something I (well, obviously) feel his business practices sorely lack.

Erica sits on hands...

 

[yssie]

My thoughts on the diamond size issue:

My original e-ring was a 1/2 carat. I originally just wanted to reset it into a setting that gave it more "presence." At the time, it was unthinkable to me to get rid of my original e-ring stone (ultimately, I did keep it and it's now set in a pendant). But I found that basically all designer vendors poo-poo'd the thought of setting a 1/2 carat stone, and even commercial-designer types (like Verragio) were restricted to 3/4 ct and above. This was 5+ years ago, and while halos were around, they were mostly all custom or semi-custom (i.e., not something you could pick up at Jared's). The prospect of spending $2,000-3,000 to set a $2,500 stone just didn't seem to make sense to any vendor I talked to.

And, ultimately, discouraged by the options and doing the math myself, I realized I could get a .82 ACA stone for $3k, so that made more financial sense to me. That's kind of what's happened now - I really want my "dream setting," but was hoping for a quote that came back with a number starting with "3," and got a number starting with "4." Given that, I figure I might as well upgrade the size now to the largest I'm personally comfortable with, and revisit the setting in the future, maybe for our 20th anniversary (this year is 15).

I'd bet that thinking you're not serious would be the calculus with why, say, Victor Canera might not return your phone calls if you want to set a .8 stone. But I'm not sure diamond size is the issue with SS, since true antiques are generally sub-1 ct and they're making repros, and they seem to be plugged into a market for "restoring" antique or family stones to an era-appropriate setting. Their model is geared toward people who appreciate antique styles, which typically featured small stones.

So, it's a head-scratcher. I obviously would not commit to a 50% deposit just to see the side profile. But if I loved the ring otherwise, and had design-say to CHANGE the profile if I didn't like it, then maybe it's not a biggie? For me, I loved the ring I saw in nearly every respect, but thought the profile could have a bit less going on, and expected that I'd be able to modify that in the design process, just as I proposed to make small changes to the design of the face-up of the ring.

It's SO important that vendors consider both what they say and how they say it!

I can see that certain settings just wouldn't work, or wouldn't work well, with stones smaller or larger than a certain size - a busy gallery might not physically fit under a stone without some minimum depth, a pave'd basket might not be invisible face-up under a stone without some minimum diameter... but I really do think that if the vendor doesn't make the effort to explain the issue and either offer alternatives or outline (politely!) why they won't/can't take the job it'll come back to bite them in the backside pretty quickly!

 

[TravelingGal]

TGal - you didn't miss anything here, the copying business wasn't on PS - it was on another forum that I don't frequent. Ironic that this vendor's last name is a homonym for something I (well, obviously) feel his business practices sorely lack.

Erica sits on hands...

Hm, well, obviously I'm not in the know! I'd be interested in seeing how it turned out, lol. My guess is probably not great!

 

[Kismet]

TGal - you didn't miss anything here, the copying business wasn't on PS - it was on another forum that I don't frequent. Ironic that this vendor's last name is a homonym for something I (well, obviously) feel his business practices sorely lack.

Erica sits on hands...

Hm, well, obviously I'm not in the know! I'd be interested in seeing how it turned out, lol. My guess is probably not great!

I was curious too. It took a bit to figure out what forum everyone was talking about and then to scroll through all the posts to find it. It looks like a cheap imitation honestly. All the elements are there but not the execution.

 

[Laila619]

TGal - you didn't miss anything here, the copying business wasn't on PS - it was on another forum that I don't frequent. Ironic that this vendor's last name is a homonym for something I (well, obviously) feel his business practices sorely lack.

Erica sits on hands...

I've interacted with him a few times, and he has been nothing but kind, professional, and helpful. He truly seems to go out of his way to make customers happy.

*All* vendors essentially copy other vendors' rings. Leon's Adrianna halo has been "copied" by SK and VC. The HW halo has been copied numerous times by just about everyone.

 

[yssie]

TGal - you didn't miss anything here, the copying business wasn't on PS - it was on another forum that I don't frequent. Ironic that this vendor's last name is a homonym for something I (well, obviously) feel his business practices sorely lack.

Erica sits on hands...

Hm, well, obviously I'm not in the know! I'd be interested in seeing how it turned out, lol. My guess is probably not great!

Sorry. No point in playing coy, presumably the vendor is proud of his work - David Klass.

 

[milton333]

I would also add that I've recently had less-than-positive experiences with a couple of vendors that I otherwise admire and have previously patronized, and it's very easy to lose a customer's goodwill. Particularly in the jewelry business. Big jewelry purchases are either purely self-indulgent, or fraught with emotional weight. Or both. I'm already half trying to talk myself out of spending this much money on something like this just for me, it's not helpful to a jeweler's bottom line to seem inflexible, unapproachable, rude, condescending about budget or diamond size, etc. Just my two cents, but no matter how fantastic the quality of your product, you need to have exceptional "bedside manner" to manage your company's goodwill.

 

[Single_Stone]

Dear PriceScope members,

It has been brought to our attention that there has recently been discussion on PS in regards to our policy on sending out images to clients considering commissioning a piece with us. At Single Stone, we take great pride in our service, our designs and our production and feel compelled to respond to these recent posts and to clarify our policy on image requests. Because we recently discovered that a few of our designs were being copied by a local jeweler, we needed to implement this deposit policy for a short period of time so that we could further investigate the matter and determine how some of our images fell into this other jeweler's hands. It is our standard policy to require a deposit only when we begin the custom order process however, we do not require a deposit when sending out images of our pieces. At Single Stone, we do our best to accommodate all of our client’s requests and make the custom design process as comfortable as possible for everyone, especially those who are unable to visit us in our showroom. Single Stone does not discriminate based on budget or center stone size. We value each and every one of our clients equally. We take great pride in our service, our designs and the quality of our production and it is important for us to clarify this misrepresentation of our policy. Furthermore, the “blurry effect” that has been mentioned is not done intentionally. Our photographs are shot in house. The photos are not edited nor enhanced by Photoshop. We do not claim to be photographers nor make any attempts to enhance the photos we send out.

We are constantly looking for ways to grow and improve the quality of our service our designs and our production. We are currently working on a new, updated website that will launch summer of 2013 and will offer several image angles and include prices.

We sincerely appreciate all of the wonderful people we have met through PS and apologize to those who may have been inconvenienced in any way.

Ari Madilian
Single Stone

 

[TravelingGal]

Dear PriceScope members,

It has been brought to our attention that there has recently been discussion on PS in regards to our policy on sending out images to clients considering commissioning a piece with us. At Single Stone, we take great pride in our service, our designs and our production and feel compelled to respond to these recent posts and to clarify our policy on image requests. Because we recently discovered that a few of our designs were being copied by a local jeweler, we needed to implement this deposit policy for a short period of time so that we could further investigate the matter and determine how some of our images fell into this other jeweler's hands. It is our standard policy to require a deposit only when we begin the custom order process however, we do not require a deposit when sending out images of our pieces. At Single Stone, we do our best to accommodate all of our client’s requests and make the custom design process as comfortable as possible for everyone, especially those who are unable to visit us in our showroom. Single Stone does not discriminate based on budget or center stone size. We value each and every one of our clients equally. We take great pride in our service, our designs and the quality of our production and it is important for us to clarify this misrepresentation of our policy. Furthermore, the “blurry effect” that has been mentioned is not done intentionally. Our photographs are shot in house. The photos are not edited nor enhanced by Photoshop. We do not claim to be photographers nor make any attempts to enhance the photos we send out.

We are constantly looking for ways to grow and improve the quality of our service our designs and our production. We are currently working on a new, updated website that will launch summer of 2013 and will offer several image angles and include prices.

We sincerely appreciate all of the wonderful people we have met through PS and apologize to those who may have been inconvenienced in any way.

Ari Madilian
Single Stone

LOL to the bolded part above. Ari, just have your photographer take the profile shots then before you send them out...they won't be clear enough to copy.

Anyway, nice to see you around these parts. "Welcome" to Pricescope!