shape
carat
color
clarity

Upgrading to 4ct - need advice

Discussion in 'RockyTalky' started by miimac7, Jan 10, 2019.

  1. miimac7
    Rough_Rock

    Messages:
    14
    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2007
    by miimac7 » Jan 10, 2019
    Hi everyone, I would really appreciate your thoughts on upgrading my diamond. I currently have a 2ct RB, G-H, I1 (love the inclusion because it is seriously shaped like the aerial view of the lake my husband proposed on), excellent cut. The diamond is not certificated and was sourced by a well know local jeweler who has since retired (hence why we are not going there). I want want to upgrade to a 4ct RB. I love my current diamond (I am happy with color and sparkle) and do not plan on trading in. I am going to buy another 2ct stone and pair as earrings. I have short fingers, my ring finger is only 2 3/4" long and I wear a size 5.25. So a 4ct is the max I can go for finger coverage. My desires for the new stone are 1. max finger coverage 2. sparkle (maybe the official term is brilliance). 3. play nice with wedding band - I have a 2ct RB shared prong eternity wedding band. The color of these stones is G and cut is excellent. 4. cost - like everyone I want bang for the buck

    I have selected 3 stones and wondering your thoughts on each as it relates to my goals:

    1. https://www.pricescope.com/diamonds/round/4_05-carat-h-color-vs1-clarity-7213878

    I know everyone raves about whiteflash and ACA diamonds. This diamond costs the most and I wonder if the diamond will be too flashy - will there be so much sparkle that it draws too much attention? I have never seen an ACA diamond. So, would the adage "you don't know until you know" save me some money (keep me in the "don't know" category). In other words, a less expensive stone may bring me the same joy. My concern with this stone is it would be so sparkly that it would make the diamonds in my wedding band look poor, and it would draw to much attention do so much sparkle. The color is H and I would feel more comfortable if it were a G. My current stone is either a G or H, am I really going to be able to see the difference with a cert H color?

    2. https://www.pricescope.com/diamonds/round/4_02-carat-g-color-vs2-clarity-5997674

    I like that this diamond has a little bit bigger diameter than the WF diamond, even though it's a little smaller stone, and that it is G color. Based on the GIA cert specs and the video I would expect this diamond to sparkle the same if not more than my current diamond. However, for an extra 8k I could have an ACA diamond.

    3. https://www.pricescope.com/diamonds/round/4_01-carat-g-color-vs1-clarity-7883601

    This diamond would allow me to purchase my second 2ct to make my earring set. I like the color, cut and measurements. I am just not sure about the medium florescence. My absolute favorite color is blue so if adds more blue sparkle that's cool. I have read up on florescence and understand what it is, however I have not seen enough diamonds to know if it matters. I like what this diamonds looks like in the video better than diamond #2. Do you find these videos accurate?

    So what are your thoughts on these three stones? The setting will be a simple 4 prong solitaire.
     
  2. Matilda
    Shiny_Rock

    Messages:
    424
    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2018
    by Matilda » Jan 10, 2019
    I would say that the first one you posted will have the best "sparkle/fire", and the last one the least. You seem quite on the fence with how much you would be pleased with ACA. Perhaps you could work with Martin at usa certed diamonds. I just quickly took a look at his inventory and there are numerous options in the 4ct range. He also references the HCA tool on his website which I would take as a good sign. I think it would be worth it to contact him and ask him to help you find a super ideal diamond without the WF/BG brand name. That way you will get size, quality cut without regretting spending the extra on the ACA brand.
     
  3. Matilda
    Shiny_Rock

    Messages:
    424
    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2018
    by Matilda » Jan 10, 2019
    Please note "brown tinge" comment on the last one
     
    rockysalamander likes this.
  4. AV_
    Brilliant_Rock

    Messages:
    690
    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2018
    by AV_ » Jan 10, 2019
    .
    Other shapes would be more subtle. Then again, FOUR CARATS :shifty: of subtle :silenced:

    (Looking)
     
    rockysalamander likes this.
  5. AV_
    Brilliant_Rock

    Messages:
    690
    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2018
    by AV_ » Jan 10, 2019
    CTD.

    Intrigued by the good HCA score of the bargain

    It would be nice to see & consider against a bona fide H&A - for symmetry (likely less, but how consequential?) & for proportions (these are out of the classical range) & for spread too, & for price...
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2019
    rockysalamander likes this.
  6. Matilda
    Shiny_Rock

    Messages:
    424
    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2018
    by Matilda » Jan 10, 2019
    That is a good point @AV_ . The size is going to catch attention. Sparkle or no sparkle a 4CT round diamond will stand out and capture attention. It is possible it will overpower the wedding band. Prior to going ahead with this upgrade I would really consider if you want such a statement ring, it just seems you are undecided. Or you want the size but want it to go unnoticed? Problem is 4ct on a finger is hard to hide.
     
    AV_ likes this.
  7. rockysalamander
    Ideal_Rock

    Messages:
    4,413
    Joined:
    May 20, 2016
    by rockysalamander » Jan 10, 2019
    I'll second @AV_ question. Are you sure you want a round? They are quite tall and stand very prominent on the hand. You seem hesitant about a large stone attracting attention. One way to minimize that is to make the stone sit lower on the hand.

    Something like this oval is the same length as the rounds you selected, but a bit more narrow and way less tall (compare to example #2 in your list which is 10.34 x 10.36 x 6.12).
    https://www.augustvintageinc.net/co...-d-vvs1-laboratory-grown-diamond-lg_m3c96377; 10.31 - 7.59 x 4.51

    This EC also changes up the proportions, but look how much lower this will be. 11.68 x 7.13 x 4.12 mm
    https://www.jewelsbygrace.com/3-04ct-emerald-cut-diamond-gia-f-vs1

    This oval is a great deal. 11.69 x 8.19 x 4.93
    http://www.diamondsbylauren.com/index.php/jewelry/326ct-i-si2-oval-diamond-r8162
     
    lovedogs, Matthews1127 and AV_ like this.
  8. Matilda
    Shiny_Rock

    Messages:
    424
    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2018
    by Matilda » Jan 10, 2019
    I like the ideas of emerald cut/oval/etc. This is obviously anecdotal but my mother and her friends have larger diamond rings (above 5ct) and they are all "fancy cuts"; they are still eye catching but definitely elegant.
     
    Matthews1127 and rockysalamander like this.
  9. sledge
    Ideal_Rock

    Messages:
    2,721
    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2018
    by sledge » Jan 10, 2019
    1. WF ACA ---> 55.8 table, 61.1 depth, 34.5 crown, 40.8 pavilion & 78 LGF's. :love: [​IMG] :love: [​IMG] :love:

    Seriously, is there a such thing as too much sparkle in a diamond. Doesn't matter if you have 4 carats or 0.40 carats. Well cut always wows the wearer and onlookers.


    2. GIA 3x ---> 61 table, 59.1 depth, 33 crown, 41 pavilion & 75 LGF's. HCA score of 1.6 within TIC range (excellent fire & spread -- but only very good light return & scintillation).

    Different style stone. This is closer to a 60/60 stone meaning both the depth & table equals 60%, or thereabouts. The larger the table, the smaller the upper facets which is where rainbow light (fire) is created. Consequently smaller tables equal more fire and larger tables equal more white light. This stone also has a shallow crown which will produce more white light. The shallow crown and large table together gives you more spread (as you already noticed) for the same (or less) carat weight.

    This stone will have a very different personality than the WF ACA. Essentially it will have more white light return vs rainbow light (fire). That said, there is a sweet spot for 60/60 stones and I think if you do some research you will find 33/41 is a nice combo.

    FYI, not everyone loves this style of stone. So before you fall in love & commit, make sure you see a stone locally of similar style.

    No one beats the price of the original vendor, but these guys have some videos & pictures that may be more helpful.

    https://www.yadavjewelry.com/diamond/round-diamond-4.02-carat-g-vs2-yd4572671

    https://enchanteddiamonds.com/diamonds/view/R402-2136572Z3?utm_source=rarecarat&utm_medium=cpc

    https://www.fourmine.com/shop/diamond/89365688?utm_source=rarecarat&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=2018

    upload_2019-1-10_17-35-57.png


    3. GIA 3x ---> 60 table, 59 depth, 31.5 crown, 41 pavilion & 75 LGF. HCA score of 1.4 in BIC range (excellent light return, fire & spread -- only very good in scintillation)

    @Matilda where are you seeing the notes about the brown tinge?

    Similar comments to #2 stone, except I think this has worse proportions.

    Found it elsewhere as well. Look at the H&A images. Not saying ED's cut scoring system is all that, but they give this diamond a 65.3 out of 100.

    https://enchanteddiamonds.com/diamonds/view/R401-43Z816341?utm_source=rarecarat&utm_medium=cpc

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]


    upload_2019-1-10_17-56-0.png
     
  10. Matilda
    Shiny_Rock

    Messages:
    424
    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2018
  11. MissGotRocks
    Super_Ideal_Rock

    Messages:
    10,707
    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2005
    by MissGotRocks » Jan 10, 2019
    I would not try to get a lesser cut stone so that it wouldn't sparkle as much and draw too much attention. That just seems like the most awkward thing ever. You will never regret going for a quality product! If you think the stone will garner too much attention, consider getting a smaller stone. That makes much more sense than trying to dumb down the sparkle factor. The WF stone will be gorgeous and because they have such a great upgrade program, you could start with a 3 carat stone and go larger later if that's what you want. A 4 carat stone is a big rock!
     
  12. sledge
    Ideal_Rock

    Messages:
    2,721
    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2018
    by sledge » Jan 10, 2019
    LOL, I'm glad someone else said it. Earlier when I read that I was like WTF. Much less expensive for a 3ct rock too. Just sayin'.
     
  13. sledge
    Ideal_Rock

    Messages:
    2,721
    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2018
    rockysalamander and Matthews1127 like this.
  14. Matilda
    Shiny_Rock

    Messages:
    424
    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2018
    by Matilda » Jan 10, 2019
    @sledge: click on the link the OP provided then click on "picture", it should come up. Only works with the last one she posted
     
    Matthews1127 and sledge like this.
  15. sledge
    Ideal_Rock

    Messages:
    2,721
    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2018
    by sledge » Jan 10, 2019
    Awesome. Learned something new today. I never ever click on the cert or image links. I just always click on availability which dumps me to the vendor sites.

    I'm guessing that link is the Rapanet network that all the vendors use. Cool stuff. Thanks! :cool2:
     
    rockysalamander and Matthews1127 like this.
  16. blueMA
    Brilliant_Rock

    Messages:
    952
    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2005
    by blueMA » Jan 10, 2019
    Please don't try to save money on a poorer cut diamond. You should always aim to get the most sparkle out of a diamond, and why in the world would you want a large expensive dud?
    I think a 4 ct diamond on a small hand will look huge and I'm not understanding why you're aiming for the specific carat weight. You might want to try lowering to 3 1/2 or less (still big!) and save money enough for a second 2ct stone.
     
  17. lovedogs
    Ideal_Rock

    Messages:
    5,157
    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2014
    by lovedogs » Jan 10, 2019
    Agree with other posters here. If you are nervous about too much attention, go with a 3ct or 3.5. do NOT get a worse cut diamond. That's just a recipie for being disappointed.
     
  18. miimac7
    Rough_Rock

    Messages:
    14
    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2007
    by miimac7 » Jan 11, 2019
    Thanks everyone for your comments. I am a complete diamond novice and my explanation for not purchasing a whiteflash ACA diamond is being misunderstood. I understand that cut king and you should get the best cut possible. I will try and explain what I mean - am I paying for a name or a truly perfect cut stone when I buy a whiteflash ACA diamond. Is there a "sweet spot" when it comes to cut? Like for example with color, with a RB in a solitaire an H or I will faceup fine. The ACA is noticeable for the diamond expert but will there be a noticeable difference between an excellent, well proportioned, HCA excellent, cut diamond for the novice?

    As for why a 4ct. - there is a history there and it's a long story. 4ct is it there will be no upgrade, that as big as the finger gets.

    As for being afraid to wear a 4ct - that is so laughable! I will wear that 4ct with pride and rock that rock with not one ounce of shame in my game. I've got one live to live and I want to live it glittering!

    It's not that I'm trying to save money, I'm just trying to decipher the costs with each diamond combo
     
    AV_ likes this.
  19. sledge
    Ideal_Rock

    Messages:
    2,721
    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2018
    by sledge » Jan 11, 2019
    If I'm understanding you properly, you want quality but not the name brand nor the trade-in policy. Although I am casting a very broad net here, I think this provides a pretty good overview of the various options you will see:
    • GIA 3x stones = The net that defines "excellent" is too broad. What happens is you end up with stones that are about as far from excellent as you can imagine, yet still receives that moniker. IMO, it causes confusion in the consumer market if a buyer is truly looking for a well cut stone.
    • GIA 3x stones (w/ ideal proportions) = Using the following criteria, we drastically narrow the net to stones that have real potential of being excellent/ideal cut stones:
      • 54-57 table
      • 60-62.4 depth (prefer <62)
      • 34-35 crown (maybe 35.5, only if paired with 40.6 pavilion)
      • 40.6-40.9 pavilion (maybe 41, only if paired with 34 crown)
      • 75-80 LGF (smaller LGF = fatter arrows, and many prefer this)
      • 45-50 stars
      • Angles must be complimentary. Pairing a steep crown & shallow pavilion (35/40.6) or possibly a shallow crown & steep pavilion (34/40.9). Essentially we are trying to find the inverse property of each other. Depending how well (or poorly) cut a stone is will determine if certain angle combos can work.
      • 0-2 HCA score (prefer 1-2, if possible)
    • AGS000 stone = Graded by AGS and 0 is their ideal, or best, available grade. The only lab that takes a 3D scan of each stone to accurately & subjectively provide a cut grade. For this reason, AGS is preferred by many here. Some GIA 3x stones that have ideal proportions could also pass AGS000 certification if sent to that lab; however, not all will. All AGS000 stones can achieve GIA 3x grading.
    • Super ideal branded stones = Normally carries the AGS000 certification, plus they have true hearts & arrow (H&A) symmetry for the best of the best. It's possible that other stones have true H&A symmetry as well, but more times than not it isn't as precise or perfect. Obviously a well cut stone with perfect symmetry sparkles a little more than one that isn't. There is massive debates over rather or not that is noticeable or not. In addition to top quality stones, you also receive top notch customer service. Stones are vetted and kept in the vendors safe. Complete images are available to make an educated decision. Upgrade & buyback policies are amongst the best.
    • IGI/EGL/Uncertified/Other stones = IGI and EGL are not trusted labs; therefore, the data concerning the diamond proportions, color, clarity, etc cannot be relied upon and is never recommended as you simply don't know what you are truly getting. Uncertified stones can be okay if you trust your jeweler. Many here rave about IDJ uncertified stones. I personally think it's worth the small expense to have an independent 3rd party opinion from a trusted lab myself. Quite frankly with the amount of money you will be spending, I wouldn't even think about an uncertified stone unless the jeweler is willing to send to a lab ahead of time to verify. If it passes the criteria they say you buy the stone & pay for the lab fee. If it fails, they eat the lab costs and you can walk.
     
    lovedogs likes this.
  20. AV_
    Brilliant_Rock

    Messages:
    690
    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2018
    by AV_ » Jan 11, 2019
    There do seem to be no-name diamonds out there - barely less crisp than the ones commissioned to be cut at the technical best. IHMO, it takes little to see what difference there is: perhaps only seeing a couple of diamonds of similar size & grades & somewhat different cut quality - including one of the top of the line. It may be tricky to line up four carat near-colourless RBC to ponder nuances of cut, but the relevant wisdom can be had from smaller diamonds - I'd say, toward two carats, so that faceting detail is obvious, as it will be even mroe in a larger example.

    Yet, IHMO larger diamonds are different animals to some extent (see WWW), and it makes sense to consider other shapes.

    Just a thought
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2019
    bludiva and rockysalamander like this.
  21. miimac7
    Rough_Rock

    Messages:
    14
    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2007
    sledge and AV_ like this.
  22. Kaycee2018
    Shiny_Rock

    Messages:
    181
    Joined:
    May 14, 2018
    by Kaycee2018 » Jan 11, 2019
    I am in the minority on this forum in that, as much as I can appreciate Branded Super Ideals, I cannot see much if any discernible difference IRL between what @sledge defines as "GIA 3x stones (w/ ideal proportions)" and super ideals. I get that super ideals are guaranteed precision cut, super ideal vendors have exceptional upgrade policies offers, etc, but for me, I do not see enough of a difference to pay the 25% or more premium. And it sound like you wouldn't take advantage of any upgrade policy, so any value in that is lost to you. There are definitely beautifully cut GIA 3x stones and AGS000 that can be had if you are willing to take the time to sift through the using @sledge's criteria listed above and getting opinions here.

    Not sure what this one scores on the HCA, but might be worth checking out and seeing what the experts here have to say about it:

    https://www.adiamor.com/Diamonds/4....&b=81.715&utm_source=rarecarat&utm_medium=cpc

    I can't wait to see what you decide on! GL!
     
    sledge likes this.
  23. sledge
    Ideal_Rock

    Messages:
    2,721
    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2018
    by sledge » Jan 11, 2019
    I prefer the 4.16. All the images look great, but watch the video (on a full size screen). That baby is a total sparkle bomb! Compare the videos against each other and I think it becomes clear why I say this.

    https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/compare.aspx?idnos=4032893,4024626

    Also, look at the lab certs. The 4.03 stone has a note we try to avoid -- "clarity grade based on clouds not shown". While I think the smaller table might be contributing to some of the extra fire we see in the 4.16, this stone also appears more crisp in the video than the 4.03 does. I think that is because of the clouds the note is talking about.
     
  24. AV_
    Brilliant_Rock

    Messages:
    690
    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2018
    by AV_ » Jan 11, 2019
    They are darn' identical.
    Nothing to say about clarity.
    I is different than D in this size.

    I am still curious about the 'bargain'.
     
  25. blueMA
    Brilliant_Rock

    Messages:
    952
    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2005
    sledge likes this.
  26. miimac7
    Rough_Rock

    Messages:
    14
    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2007
    by miimac7 » Jan 11, 2019
    I also prefer the 4.16ct, fingers crossed when she sends me more pics. This could be the one....
     
    sledge likes this.
  27. sledge
    Ideal_Rock

    Messages:
    2,721
    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2018
    by sledge » Jan 11, 2019
    HCA = 1.4

    That steep 35.5 crown will likely throw quite a bit of fire. It can also produce obstruction. Depends on the cut, but proportions are a worthwhile consideration. I'd ask Adiamor for idealscope, ASET and H&A images. Also, ask if the stone has any colored hues or milky/hazy issues.

    Capture2.PNG


    I think the bargain is the 60/60 style and fact it doesn't have the best angles. Not sure why it ranks so high on HCA although the score is based on BIC, and not TIC like normal.

    https://www.pricescope.com/wiki/diamonds/holloway-cut-advisor

    Also, to my knowledge, a D colored stone hasn't entered the equation. Perhaps I overlooked something?
     
  28. MissGotRocks
    Super_Ideal_Rock

    Messages:
    10,707
    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2005
    by MissGotRocks » Jan 11, 2019
    Just curious as to why you prefer this one - is it the higher crown with smaller table?
     
    sledge likes this.
  29. sledge
    Ideal_Rock

    Messages:
    2,721
    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2018
    by sledge » Jan 11, 2019
    Yes. Good recipe for sparkles. :cool2:

    55.8 vs 56.8 table
    34.7 vs 34.4 crown angle
    15.3 vs 14.9 crown height
    40.8 pavilion same

    Although crown angle is similar, see how the height changes with that small table. All proportions affect one another.

    ETA:
    As noted earlier, I also think that "clarity grade based on clouds not shown" is also making the 4.03 not as crisp and fiery.
     
  30. Kaycee2018
    Shiny_Rock

    Messages:
    181
    Joined:
    May 14, 2018
    by Kaycee2018 » Jan 11, 2019
    Thanks for running the HCA, @sledge! It is a VS2 with no clouds, excellent polish and faint floro, so milkiness/haziness shouldn't be a concern. And I don't see anything in the video that would raise alarms for any colored hues or obstruction...although obviously, it needs to be viewed IRL and under different lighting to get a real feel for that. Personally, I think it's worth considering if it meets your parameters, @miimac7. I like that it is a G since color is more obvious in larger diamonds. Adiamor has a solid return policy and hopefully can provide additional images if you are interested.
     
    sledge likes this.

Share This Page